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Elise Donating Member (289 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-01-05 07:38 AM
Original message
Don't fault Israel for Palestinians' intransigence
Former Israeli U.N. Representative Abba Eban once said that when it comes to making peace with Israel, "the Palestinians never miss an opportunity to miss an opportunity."

With the passing of Yasser Arafat from the scene, yet another opportunity materializes for new Palestinian leaders, not compromised by terror and corruption, to negotiate a peace deal with Israel.

Likewise, Arafat's departure presents The Register-Guard with an opportunity to re-examine its editorial policy of blaming Israel for the current stalemate in the peace process.

While Israel, like other nations, makes its share of mistakes, criticism should be informed and fair, not one-sided, ignorant of the history of the peace process and insensitive to the real dangers that the Israeli people face.

more: http://www.registerguard.com/news/2004/11/21/b1.ed.col.helphand.1121.html
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King Mongo Donating Member (564 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-01-05 09:06 AM
Response to Original message
1. How to not be one-sided....
Honorable Elise

Well, not being one-sided means that one doesn't blame Arafat for Sharon's refusal to negotiate.

I'm sure that this article wanted to say this, but forgot to, for one reason or another.

If only Israel hadn't missed the golden opportunity presented to them at Taba and continued the negotiations instead of voting for Sharon... Even Bush attempts to understand the differences between the Hamas and PLO while working with one and not the other.

But, that's just the fair, not one-sided view which is not ignorant of the peace process and insensitive to the real dangers that the Palestinian people face.

If you would like more information regarding Taba from trustworthy locations, feel free to contact me.

At your service,
King Mongo
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Elise Donating Member (289 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-01-05 10:20 AM
Response to Reply #1
2. emkay
I suppose you enjoyed the debacle called Oslo, then?

As I posted on another thread, "The Palestinians never miss an opportunity to miss an opportunity" ............... but, since that came from an Israeli, I'm sure you'll find a way to rail against that as well.


If you would like more information regarding the history of the ME, feel free to PM me.
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Ian David Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-01-05 10:46 AM
Response to Reply #2
3. Middle-Eastern Negotiating
In Middle Eastern cultures, it is traditional (actually, deeply ingrained) to "negotiate from victory."

In other words, Israel is seizing territory it has every intention of conceding (eventually) in negotiations so they can start from a position of power.

It is a very old brand of brinkmanship that has thrived around the world since time immemorial, and in the Middle East in particular, where it has been raised to a fine, dangerous art pathologically adhered to by the entire region.
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Elise Donating Member (289 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-01-05 10:52 AM
Response to Reply #3
4. emkay
If you would like more information regarding the history of the ME, feel free to PM me.
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King Mongo Donating Member (564 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-01-05 10:56 AM
Response to Reply #4
7. Need info regarding expanding settlements
Honorable Elise

I would be delighted if you could kindly post information here regarding the expansion of illegal settlements after Oslo. What was the logic behind this? Why was it done?

Your honorable servant
King Mongo
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Darranar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-01-05 10:57 AM
Response to Reply #7
8. Because Israel doesn't want a just peace, it wants more land. n/t
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King Mongo Donating Member (564 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-01-05 11:01 AM
Response to Reply #8
10. International perspective
Honorable Darranar

This is the perspective of the international majority that you are sharing with us, one that is strongly motivated by the words and actions of many Israelis.

However, Israelis who support the expansion have a different explanation as to why they believe that such expansion is necessary. I enjoy hearing these explanations. It is very educational.

At your service
King Mongo
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Darranar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-01-05 11:10 AM
Response to Reply #10
14. I actually have never heard a real explanation for that...
from a supporter of Israeli policy, aside from the typical junk that halting settlements would be a "concession to terrorism", which is like saying that stopping suicide bombings would be a "concession to land theft"....

Judging by the response you have recieved, it seems you aren't going to get one either.
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King Mongo Donating Member (564 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-01-05 11:35 AM
Response to Reply #14
22. The problems with propaganda
True. I don't expect an honest response because such would only point out that my statements are not far from being correct.
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Elise Donating Member (289 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-01-05 11:03 AM
Response to Reply #7
11. not taking the bait: sorry
I will say, however, Jews have been so traumatized by thousands of years of dispersions and pogroms and so on that I would bet the settlements were made out of fear of the threat of being driven into the sea.

BTW, what you call illegal is what others call survival.

I would be delighted if you could kindly post information here regarding:

http://www.conceptwizard.com/imagine/imagine_n.html
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Darranar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-01-05 11:06 AM
Response to Reply #11
12. Settlement expansion has nothing to do with survival. n/t
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The Magistrate Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-01-05 11:51 AM
Response to Reply #11
23. An Interesting Explaination, Ma'am
Your view that the Jewish people have been so maddened by the centuries has the ring of the view expressed by an old foe in this place, though she put a rather different top-spin on it.

It might suffice to explain the extraordinarily poor judgement of strategy that produces the claim the settlements on the land over-run in '67 foster the security of Israel. It is clear to any dispassionate observer they do no such thing today, but are in fact rather detrimental to Israeli security. At a minimum, they do little more than provide exposed targets in which Israeli citizens may be easily attacked by Arab Palestinian militia bodies; at worst they provide a constant irritant to the people of Arab Palestine that guarantees that people will remain hostile to Israel, and serve as standing proof to that people that the intent of Israel, whatever the statements of its government, or the statements of many Israelis, may say, is the entire dispossession of the Arab Palestinians.

Some years ago, a credible claim could be made that settlement on a portion of the lands over-run in '67 made a genuine contribution to israeli security, by acting as a buffer zone to give depth to defense against conventional military assault. Not only the military art, but the political situation, has moved on considerably from that time.
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King Mongo Donating Member (564 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-01-05 12:06 PM
Response to Reply #23
24. also...
I might add that Sharon is removing 4 small settlements in the West Bank because it is to difficult and expensive to defend them.

Thus, the idea of building settlements for security purposes does not work.
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pelsar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-01-05 05:32 PM
Response to Reply #7
28. why the settlements expanded....
lets see if I can help with some real info. The govt of israel actually is not a single monolitic entity with a single dictator on top....even though its a democracy in the western sense, it still has some middle eastern tendencies.

what this means is that the various govt agencies tend to follow their own agenda depending upon their own political affiliation. That means for instance the minister in charge of tourism today is busy spending money in the west bank on tourists projects, even though no tourists exist.

So to during oslo, without a specific law about the settlement not being able to expand (natural growth?) various govt agencies/ministers would send money to the settlements via various legal and semi legal conduits for continued construction.

The political will/power to bring the settlement expansion to a complete halt will take more than mere words, it will take the people of israel to say "enough". And for that to happen we need a bit of confidence in the palestenians that they actually plan on living with us in peace, as we're not sure about that at this point in time...so the political power is simply not there.

got it?
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King Mongo Donating Member (564 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-01-05 06:10 PM
Response to Reply #28
29. the lack of trust on both sides
Both sides fear the other. Both sides do not trust the other. Israelis believe that Palestinians will continue to use violence and Palestinians believe that Israelis will continue taking their land.

This demonstrates the need for UN forces to enforce justice on both sides while both sides continue talking about a fair solution to the problem.
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King Mongo Donating Member (564 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-01-05 10:53 AM
Response to Reply #2
5. The expansion after Oslo
Honorable Elise

As you are well informed, Oslo gave Israelis an excellent opportunity to expand further into Yesha, building more cities and more walls around these cities.

Camp David further offered Palestinians an opportunity for Israel to expand further into Yesha, giving Israelis another 20 years to expand their settlements.

As you know, the term "opportunity" from your perspective regarding Palestinians means moving to Jordan, as history has demonstrated.

Your humble servant
King Mongo

PS. I enjoy Israeli sources. Sometimes they have lots of information and sometimes they are missing a lot too.
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Elise Donating Member (289 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-01-05 10:55 AM
Response to Reply #5
6. .
Edited on Sat Jan-01-05 10:56 AM by Elise
You wrote, "...from your perspective..." when you know nothing about it; nothing at all. You assume a lot and we both know what assume means, now, don't we?

sorry: editing 'was' to 'what' (just so I don't get accused for editing as was done before: LOL)
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King Mongo Donating Member (564 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-01-05 10:58 AM
Response to Reply #6
9. I want to learn more about your perspective
Honorable Elise

I am greatly sorry if my analysis of your perspective was lacking more information for greater accuracy.

I would be delighted if you could tell me more about your opinions regarding the habitat of the indigenous population of Eretz Israel.

Your humble servant
King Mongo
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Elise Donating Member (289 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-01-05 11:10 AM
Response to Reply #9
13. Of course you do, I'm sure
Israel today (including the West Bank) occupies most of the land that it did during biblical times. Many proposals were made for locating a State for the Jewish people elsewhere, even in Kenya Africa. In the end, the social-historical importance of the Holy Land and Jerusalem to the Jewish people has proven essential to the Jewish Identity and it's rebuilding. Especially since approx. 1/3 of the world's Jewish population was destroyed as civilians during the last world war.



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Darranar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-01-05 11:12 AM
Response to Reply #13
15. Israel today does not include the West Bank, and it should not...
basing modern political structures on borders from thousands of years ago is not a very wise policy, in my view.
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Elise Donating Member (289 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-01-05 11:13 AM
Response to Reply #15
16. Why do you begrudge
Israel such a tiny slice of the ME pie?

What? The Arabs don't have enough already?
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Darranar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-01-05 11:19 AM
Response to Reply #16
18. Because it doesn't belong to them. It belongs to the Palestinians...
The issue here is not how much belongs to the Arabs as a whole, but how much belongs to a segment - the Palestinians.

Out of curiosity, if you think the West Bank is part of Israel, why don't Palestinians have the right to vote?
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-01-05 11:23 AM
Response to Reply #18
19. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
Darranar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-01-05 11:32 AM
Response to Reply #19
20. If I were against Israel's existence, you might have a point. n/t
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The Magistrate Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-01-05 11:34 AM
Response to Reply #19
21. As A Matter Of Curiousity, Ma'am
What do you think is the reason the United Nations "created the modern state of Israel"?
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Elise Donating Member (289 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-01-05 11:14 AM
Response to Reply #15
17. BTW
That comment would have been more appropriately made to the one who asked: THE KING.
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King Mongo Donating Member (564 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-01-05 12:14 PM
Response to Reply #17
26. Citizenship in Eretz Israel
Honorable Elise

Darranar asked a fine question. Since you believe that Yesha is a part of Eretz Israel, why is apartheid being practiced in Eretz Israel?

The problem with expansion is that racial cleansing is disliked by the global community and thus discouraged.

Feel free to pm me at any time. I am your friend and am here to discuss things.

Kind regards
King Mongo

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King Mongo Donating Member (564 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-01-05 12:09 PM
Response to Reply #13
25. accurate analysis
Honorable Elise

This demonstrates that my analysis of your perspective is completely correct and in no need of improving accuracy.

If the indigenous population of Eretz Israel is not given citizenship, then apartheid will prevail since racial cleansing is unacceptable.

Your humble servant
King Mongo
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Elise Donating Member (289 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-01-05 04:05 PM
Response to Reply #25
27. Your words:
"then apartheid will prevail..."

South Africa's apartheid died in 1994, but the word is alive: Israel is accused of being "the new apartheid" while its founding ideology, Zionism, is attacked as "racism." How true are these accusations? Mere repetition, however frequent, widespread and fervent, does not in itself give them validity.

Describing Israel as an "emerging apartheid" gathered force in the run-up to the UN anti-racism conference in Durban in August 2001 and was given aggressive expression there. However, after pressure by democratic countries, the subsequent conference of governments expunged virtually every attack on Israel from its final document. The Sept. 11 destruction a few days later pushed the "new apartheid" campaign to the back burner. But in Chicago, Ramallah, Johannesburg, London, Cairo, Sydney, the phrase is increasingly heard.

If the apartheid label is appropriate, it provides a potent political weapon. If, however, the usage is wrong it reduces the vile system of racism perpetrated in South Africa to just another swear word. It also raises questions about the motivation of those who apply it. Clear purpose can indeed be discerned in the efforts to make the apartheid stigma stick: To have Israel viewed as, and declared, illegitimate. That is, to challenge its right to existence -- and to ensure that Israelis are made unwelcome abroad and that it becomes politically correct to boycott Israeli products and to discourage investment in the country.

The situations inside and outside the Green Line, the borders determined by the 1967 war, are intertwined but separate. First, the West Bank and Gaza. Israel is the occupier and no occupation is benign. Everyone is suffering -- Palestinians as victims and Israelis as perpetrators. Everyone suffers deaths and maimings.

The word "Bantustan" is often used in an accusatory way to describe Israel's policy about a future Palestinian state. Bantustans were the tribal mini-states created as a means of depriving the black population of citizenship in "white" South Africa. The common element between Israel and the apartheid state is control, seen especially in restrictions on freedom of movement so too is the grabbing of land.

But the root causes are different. White South Africans invented the Bantustans to pen black people into defined reservoirs of labor, being allowed to leave only when working for white South Africa. The Israeli intention is the opposite: To keep out Palestinians, having as little to do with them as possible.

Second, Israel inside the Green Line. In South Africa pre-1994, skin color determined every single person's life: Where you were born, where you lived, which school you went to, which bus, train, beach, hospital, library, park bench and public toilet you used, with whom you could have sex, what you could study, which jobs you had and hence how much you could earn and ultimately, where you were buried.

In Israel, Arabs are approximately 20 percent of the population. In theory they have full citizenship rights but in practice they suffer extensive discrimination, ranging from land use, diminished job opportunities and lesser social benefits, to reports of a family ordered off a beach. None of this is acceptable, and particularly in a state that prides itself on its democracy. Discrimination occurs despite equality in law and is buttressed by custom -- but it is not remotely the South African panoply of discrimination enforced by parliamentary legislation. Anyone who says that Israel is apartheid does not appreciate what apartheid was.

Nor does "Zionism is racism" stand up to scrutiny. Israel has a Jewish majority and they have the right to decide how to order the society, including defining citizenship. If the majority wish to restrict immigration and citizenship to Jews, that might be undesirable in universalist terms but it is their right, just as it is the right of Saudi Arabia not to allow Christians as citizens. Yet it is also clearly unfair to give automatic entry to Jews while denying the "right of return" to Palestinians who fled or were expelled in the wars of 1948 and 1967. This unfairness is a tragic consequence of war, which again is anything but unique to Israel.

The Jewish state was born in pain: It was attacked and Arabs suffered mass dispossession in the war for survival. The many thousands of Arabs who remained in Israel now constitute a sizeable minority. Most countries have minorities; the question is how they deal with them. Some, such as Burundi and Rwanda, or India in 1947, erupt into terrible violence. Greece has an estimated 200,000 Roma who enjoy almost none of the benefits that other Greeks take for granted. Christians are targeted for attack in Nigeria, Malaysia, Sri Lanka, Pakistan, Indonesia and China.

A crucial indicator of the status of Israel's minority is that Arabs have the vote black South Africans did not. Certainly, Arab citizens lack full power as a minority community, but they have the right and the power to unite among themselves and to ally themselves with others. Change is possible in Israel, and is happening. One example: Mosawa (The Center for Equal Rights for the Arab Population in Israel), acting on a recent law banning discrimination, has launched court action against a Web site offering jobs to Jews only.

Health is a visible indicator of progress. In South Africa in 1985 life expectancy was 71 years for white people and 61 years for black people. In Israel, the gap between Jews and Arabs in the 1980s was 2.3 years; in the 1990s it was 1.2 years. And life expectancy for Arab males, at 74.4 years, compared with 69.6 for the white majority in European countries.

Critics dub the separation barrier that Israel is building the "Apartheid Wall." The barrier, supported by most Israelis in the hope of gaining security against suicide bombers, is being used as a cover to seize land from Palestinians -- it is the cause of immeasurable suffering.
Machiavellian, a land grab, misperceived or thieving the barrier might be, but it's not apartheid.
Underlying everything is the nature of Israeli democracy. That in turn depends on the conception of the Jewish state. Which in turn depends on the definition of who is a Jew. Each is evolving.
Meanwhile, visionary, courageous leadership is lacking. Palestinians undermined the Oslo accords by continuing violent attacks; Israel undermined the accords by continuing to build on the West Bank and Gaza.

The spurious "apartheid" and "Zionism is racism" accusations confuse and distract. Instead, South Africa's experience should be put to positive use. What can be learned? For Israel, that armed might and oppression cannot crush a people's spirit and passion for freedom. For Palestinians, there is the African National Congress's switch to armed struggle in 1961, with the decision not to kill civilians: This proved crucial in persuading white people that they had nothing to fear in negotiating with the ANC. And the most basic South African lesson of all, contact across the lines of division: To create trust so that an agreed future can be forged between Jewish Israelis and Arab Israelis, and between Israelis and Palestinians.

(as set forth by Benjamin Pogrund, author of books on Robert Mangaliso Sobukwe, Nelson Mandela and the press under apartheid.)
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King Mongo Donating Member (564 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-01-05 06:18 PM
Response to Reply #27
30. The situation in the occupied territories
Elise,

I agree that Israel west of the green line is a democracy where the rights of Palestinians are improving.

Yet, in the West Bank and Gaza, the situation is very different. In the west bank, there are Jewish-only roads, Jewish-only cities, walls that divide Jews from Palestinians, etc.

It is my opinion that Jews and Palestinians in the West bank should be treated equally with the same rights and same status.
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