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Violet_Crumble Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-01-05 08:27 PM
Original message
Wall and landgrab
In spite of police threats, hundreds of Israeli and international peace activists and Palestinian villagers planted olive trees at the site of a planned new settlement: North Zufin, next to Qalqilya. "We, Israelis and Palestinians, shall campaign together against the landgrab of the Separation Fence"

"I warn you, this is private property belonging to the settlers, and the planting of olive trees here is a violation of the law. We shall photograph every single person planting trees" called the police officer over his megaphone to hundreds of Israeli peace activists who gathered this morning at the site of the new settlement-to-be "Zufin North", next to Qalqilya. The activists responded to his words by chanting "Police State", "Stop the Occupation" and "No soldier and no policeman – we shall not rule over another nation".

Together with residents of the nearby Palestinian village Jayyous, they began to plant hundreds of olive saplings which they had brought with them to the plot of land where the bulldozers of the settlers had uprooted hundreds of olive trees last week. "In spite of the police and army assertions, we do not recognise the ownership of the settlers over this land. This land belongs to the Jayyous villagers and the company "Geulat HaKarka" which is associated with the settlers and took control of it on the false assertion that it was sold to them. The matter is still awaiting legal review, and we will not allow the settlers to dictate facts on the ground, to grab Palestinian lands and to commence establishing a new settlement on it" said Advocate Wiam Shbeyta, an activist of the Ta'ayush movement and a representative of the village residents.

The hundreds of demonstrators, members of Gush Shalom, Ta'ayush, the Israeli Committee Against House Demolitions, MachsomWatch and the Anarchists Against the Wall, came to the site in a convoy of buses and private cars from Tel Aviv, Jerusalem and Haifa. To the west of the Tsur Natan (inside the Green Line) they were stopped by a large force of police and army, including a team of YASSAM (special forces). The demonstrators descended from the vehicles and marched five kilometres by a rough country path, escorted by the police and army, holding olive saplings and signs reading: "Settlement behind the smokescreen of the Gaza Disengagement" "In Gaza we are disengaging, here we are settling" "Stop the land grab" "Demolish the Separation Wall", "We will build trust, not walls", "There is no peace with settlements, there is no peace without justice" and also signs displaying the joined Israeli and Palestinian flags.

At the site of the new settlement - started by the settler-owned Geulat Ha'aretz company - the actvists planted the hundred olive saplings which they had brought. The police at the site photographed the faces of the people planting the trees, but did not stop them in their work. A rally developed on the spot, where Uri Avnery of Gush Shalom (the Peace Bloc) said: "Two years ago, when the fence was built here, we had a hard time convincing people in Israel that the purpose of the fence was not security or prevention of suicide bombings, but was erected for political and settlement purposes: first they separated the people of Jayyous from their land, preventing them from working on it. Now, everything is clearly visible: they are passing over the land over to settler possession. That is part of the plan of Ariel Sharon, to annex into Israel 58% of the lands of the West Bank and to leave the Palestinians in isolated enclaves, which means never ending war with the Palestinians and with the entire Arab world." The historian Dr. Gadi Algazy, one of the Ta'ayush activists, said: "The day before yesterday we were here on the land, and we saw the settlers uproot whole live trees in order to profit from their sale, to sell them to Israeli juppies who enjoy seeing hundred-year old trees in their gardens. Whoever is offered an olive tree for sale had better check very well where it came from." Abu Azzam, the Jayyous residents' representative told how the Israeli military authorities registered in the Land Registry settler possession of plots numbered 788 and 786, but did not show the Palestinian landowners the maps of those plots, on which this land was marked. "Only when the bulldozers came on our land and began to uproot the olive trees we earn our living from, did we understand that these numbers refer to our land. The settlers assert that we sold our land to them. This is a lie. We never sold this land and we have no intention of giving it up to them."

http://www.zmag.org/content/showarticle.cfm?SectionID=107&ItemID=6943
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King Mongo Donating Member (564 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-02-05 01:18 AM
Response to Original message
1. More protests needed
More Israelis need to protest against what is going on.
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Annus Horribilis Donating Member (140 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-02-05 02:38 AM
Response to Original message
2. I Agree With John Kerry
Supporting the Security Fence. John Kerry and John Edwards believe that Israel’s security fence is a legitimate response to terror that only exists in response to the wave of terror attacks against Israel. The fence is an important tool in Israel’s fight against terrorism. Kerry strongly condemned the International Court of Justice’s July ruling on the fence, and he has always made clear that he did not believe that the ICJ should even be considering the issue. John Kerry believes our nation is rightly discussing with Israel the exact route of the fence to minimize the hardship it causes Palestinians. Israel’s own Supreme Court has looked at the very same issues and Kerry believes we should respect that process.

http://www.johnkerry.com/communities/jewish_americans/strength_security.html
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Violet_Crumble Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-02-05 02:52 AM
Response to Reply #2
3. I don't, because he's talking a load of crap...
John Kerry doesn't believe Israel should abide by international law. Does he also hold that view for every other country? If the barrier was along the Green Line and not taking in Palestinian land, the claim that the barrier is legitimate and that the motive for it is security would be credible. As it is, that's a load of nonsense on Kerry's part...

Violet...
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Annus Horribilis Donating Member (140 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-02-05 03:08 AM
Response to Reply #3
6. Well, I don't think he is talking a load of crap
Edited on Sun Jan-02-05 03:10 AM by Annus Horribilis
Most Democrats feel the same way about Israel. And so do most Americans. Ever wonder why both parties support Israel? It's only people on the extreme left and right that have a problem with the Jewish State.
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Violet_Crumble Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-02-05 04:39 AM
Response to Reply #6
7. Then explain why...
And do it without using the underwhelming power of lemming group-think. As I'm not an American, nor a Democrat, why is any argument that something is right because a majority supposedly support it supposed to impress me and trump the fact that the route the barrier is taking is violating international law? The majority of Americans voted for Bush, remember. Should I also be impressed with that?

So explain why you think Israel should ignore international law. And whether you feel every other country should do the same. And then maybe you can clarify why you take a specific criticism of the barrier and turn it into an accusation that people 'have a problem with the Jewish state'....

Violet...
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Annus Horribilis Donating Member (140 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-02-05 05:15 AM
Response to Reply #7
9. Because
The support of Israel transcends party lines and ideological differences. Supporting Israel is not a Democratic or Republican thing to do, or a liberal or conservative thing to do, it's the RIGHT thing to do. It has noting to do with "lemming group-think" or anything like that.

And about the fence and international law, I'll post what John Kerry said, because it's how I feel:

“I am deeply disappointed by today’s International Court of Justice ruling related to Israel’s security fence. Israel’s fence is a legitimate response to terror that only exists in response to the wave of terror attacks against Israel. The fence is an important tool in Israel’s fight against terrorism. It is not a matter for the ICJ.

“I have made very clear from the start that I do not believe that the ICJ should even be considering this issue given that they do not have jurisdiction.

“We were right to oppose the resolution in the General Assembly and to convey this opinion to the ICJ. Several months ago, I joined in sending a letter to UN Secretary General Kofi Annan urging him to “act so that the ICJ does not…issue an advisory opinion on the legality of the security fence Israel is building.”

“Our nation is rightly discussing with Israel the exact route of the fence to minimize the hardship it causes Palestinians. And Israel’s own Supreme Court has looked at the very same issues and we should respect that process.”


And of course people have a problem with Israel. Israel is always judged on a different standard than any other nation. The United Nations passes resolution, after resolution condemning Israel, but never Palestine. If not for America, Israel would be destroyed.

In the 20th century the world's worst regimes tried to destroy the Jewish people. In the 21st century the world's worst regimes are trying to destroy the Jewish state. Thank God for people like John Kerry who will stand up for what's right.
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King Mongo Donating Member (564 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-02-05 05:26 AM
Response to Reply #9
10. The holocaust is not a justification to harm civilians
Edited on Sun Jan-02-05 05:32 AM by King Mongo
>>it's the RIGHT thing to do

This is absurd. Harming Palestinians is not the right thing to do. Stealing Palestinian land is not the right thing to do. Killing Palestinian civilians is not the right thing to do.

I could go on and on and on and on, but you get the point.


The right thing is to obey the law, to respect human beings and to be a good person. The holocaust is not a justification to harm human beings and violate the law.

A term often used for individuals who harm civilians and violate the law is: "terrorist".

Most of the people of the world do not want to destroy Israel. Rather, they just want to help Israel to not destroy Palestinians. Not destroying Palestinians means accepting the something like the green line or equality and citizenship for everyone. In order for this to be possible, the expansion must stop.

Furthermore, a fair two-state solution is best accomplished when Israel discusses such with Palestinians. A fair two-state solution does not mean for Israel and the US to decide how much land they should grab.
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Annus Horribilis Donating Member (140 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-02-05 05:31 AM
Response to Reply #10
11. The Holocaust?
WTF are you talking about?

I never said harming Palestinians was right. Re-read my post. I said supporting Israel is the right thing to do. And when Israel hurts or kills an innocent Palestinian, it is wrong. And when a Palestinian hurts or kills an innocent Israeli, it is wrong. I don't think anybody would deny that.

Sheesh.
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King Mongo Donating Member (564 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-02-05 05:38 AM
Response to Reply #11
12. My apology
My apology. I tend to discuss things with to many radical supporters of Israel and my words reflect this.

I agree that support for Israelis and Palestinians is the right thing to do. That's why one must not be one-sided and one must focus on why negotiations are more important than grabbing land.

The illegal settlements don't make any sense, given that they harm negotiations and seal a one-state solution. That's why I feel that one should support Israelis by encouraging Israelis to live west of the wall along the green line until both sides have agreed upon a fair settlement.
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Annus Horribilis Donating Member (140 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-02-05 05:44 AM
Response to Reply #12
13. Yes, I Agree
And I think the Gaza disengagement plan is a good step in the right direction. Hopefully when Abbas is elected, some sort of agreement will be worked out. I am very hopeful that 2005 will be a good year for peace for Israel and Palestine. Compromise will be key I believe. Terrorism MUST stop and Israel must make major land concessions.
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King Mongo Donating Member (564 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-02-05 05:50 AM
Response to Reply #13
14. 2005
Yes, I agree that the Gaza disengagement plan is a first step in the right direction.

I also hope that Abbas will be elected and that Sharon will discuss the Geneva Accords with Abbas.

Unfortunately, however, I think that the reality is that terrorism will not stop. Radical folks will not stop using violence and Abbas will be blamed for this. I predict that Abbas will be thought of by the US and Israel as being no different from Arafat.

In my opinion, the only way to combat this terrorism is for Israel to withdraw from the occupied territories so that Palestinians can form their own government. An Israeli withdrawal should be accompanied with UN troops to protect Israel, the Palestinian government and assist in the enforcement of the law.
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King Mongo Donating Member (564 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-02-05 04:50 AM
Response to Reply #6
8. Bush & Kerry letting Israel self-destruct
Many people know little about the situation. That's why they support Bush and Kerry while allowing Israel to self-destruct.


Letting Israel Self-Destruct
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A34025-2004Aug25.html?nav=rss_opinion/columns

The writer is a lawyer in Jerusalem and legal counsel to Ir Amim, an Israeli organization concerned with the future of that city.


If John Kerry took a little time to study the situation, then he would want to protect Israel from destroying itself.

In my opinon, however, a one-state solution does not mean the destruction of Israel. Both a one-state solution and a two-state solution encourage the practice of democracy and equality for everyone.
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King Mongo Donating Member (564 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-02-05 02:56 AM
Response to Reply #2
4. Kerry's support for a one-state solution
Edited on Sun Jan-02-05 02:58 AM by King Mongo
A wall along the green line does a great job in protecting Israel from terror attacks. There is no need for Israel to build and expand illegal settlements.

A wall beyond the green line is a great way that Israel can expand. The fact that Kerry supported Israeli expansion is one reason why he is not president today, given that he lost my vote and that of many others. One simply cannot expand if one is against a one-state solution. Kerry did an excellent job of supporting a one-state solution while speaking out against it.
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Carlos Martillo Donating Member (49 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-02-05 03:02 AM
Response to Reply #2
5. Johns Kerry & Edwards lost
that reality is no longer on the table.
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