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Cervello Donating Member (40 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-07-05 01:16 AM
Original message
A World Without Israel
Edited on Fri Jan-07-05 01:17 AM by Cervello
A World Without Israel
By Josef Joffe
Foreign Policy Magazine
January/February 2005

Imagine that Israel never existed. Would the economic malaise and political repression that drive angry young men to become suicide bombers vanish? Would the Palestinians have an independent state? Would the United States, freed of its burdensome ally, suddenly find itself beloved throughout the Muslim world? Wishful thinking. Far from creating tensions, Israel actually contains more antagonisms than it causes.

Since World War II, no state has suffered so cruel a reversal of fortunes as Israel. Admired all the way into the 1970s as the state of “those plucky Jews” who survived against all odds and made democracy and the desert bloom in a climate hostile to both liberty and greenery, Israel has become the target of creeping delegitimization. The denigration comes in two guises. The first, the soft version, blames Israel first and most for whatever ails the Middle East, and for having corrupted U.S. foreign policy. It is the standard fare of editorials around the world, not to mention the sheer venom oozing from the pages of the Arab-Islamic press. The more recent hard version zeroes in on Israel’s very existence. According to this dispensation, it is Israel as such, and not its behavior, that lies at the root of troubles in the Middle East. Hence the “statocidal” conclusion that Israel’s birth, midwifed by both the United States and the Soviet Union in 1948, was a grievous mistake, grandiose and worthy as it may have been at the time.

The soft version is familiar enough. One motif is the “wagging the dog” theory. Thus, in the United States, the “Jewish lobby” and a cabal of neoconservatives have bamboozled the Bush administration into a mindless pro-Israel policy inimical to the national interest. This view attributes, as has happened so often in history, too much clout to the Jews. And behind this charge lurks a more general one—that it is somehow antidemocratic for subnational groups to throw themselves into the hurly-burly of politics when it comes to foreign policy. But let us count the ways in which subnational entities battle over the national interest: unions and corporations clamor for tariffs and tax loopholes; nongovernmental organizations agitate for humanitarian intervention; and Cuban Americans keep us from smoking cheroots from the Vuelta Abajo. In previous years, Poles militated in favor of Solidarity, African Americans against Apartheid South Africa, and Latvians against the Soviet Union. In other words, the democratic melee has never stopped at the water’s edge.

Another soft version is the “root-cause” theory in its many variations. Because the “obstinate” and “recalcitrant” Israelis are the main culprits, they must be punished and pushed back for the sake of peace. “Put pressure on Israel”; “cut economic and military aid”; “serve them notice that we will not condone their brutalities”—these have been the boilerplate homilies, indeed the obsessions, of the chattering classes and the foreign-office establishment for decades. Yet, as Sigmund Freud reminded us, obsessions tend to spread. And so there are ever more creative addenda to the well-wrought root-cause theory. Anatol Lieven of the Carnegie Endowment for International Peace argues that what is happening between Israelis and Palestinians is a “tremendous obstacle to democratization because it inflames all the worst, most regressive aspects of Arab nationalism and Arab culture.” In other words, the conflict drives the pathology, and not the other way around—which is like the streetfighter explaining to the police: “It all started when this guy hit back.”

The problem with this root-cause argument is threefold: It blurs, if not reverses, cause and effect. It ignores a myriad of conflicts unrelated to Israel. And it absolves the Arabs of culpability, shifting the blame to you know whom. If one believes former U.N. weapons inspector Scott Ritter, the Arab-Islamic quest for weapons of mass destruction, and by extension the war against Iraq, are also Made in Israel. “s long as Israel has nuclear weapons,” Ritter opines, “it has chosen to take a path that is inherently confrontational.…Now the Arab countries, the Muslim world, is not about to sit back and let this happen, so they will seek their own deterrent. We saw this in Iraq, not only with a nuclear deterrent but also with a biological weapons deterrent…that the Iraqis were developing to offset the Israeli nuclear superiority.”

This theory would be engaging if it did not collide with some inconvenient facts. Iraqis didn’t use their weapons of mass destruction against the Israeli usurper but against fellow Muslims during the Iran-Iraq War, and against fellow Iraqis in the poison-gas attack against Kurds in Halabja in 1988—neither of whom were brandishing any nuclear weapons. As for the Iraqi nuclear program, we now have the “Duelfer Report,” based on the debriefing of Iraqi regime loyalists, which concluded: “Iran was the pre-eminent motivator of this policy. All senior-level Iraqi officials considered Iran to be Iraq’s principal enemy in the region. The wish to balance Israel and acquire status and influence in the Arab world were also considerations, but secondary.”

A LONG, BUT MUST READ. REST HERE:
http://www.foreignpolicy.com/story/files/story2737.php?PHPSESSID=e9f1cba21f2bda2e946c1cb33e060d95
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Erika Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-07-05 01:22 AM
Response to Original message
1. Question on Jeopardy with Israel as the Answer
Which country spends the most per person on the military. Israel. But we are shipping out 13 mil a day to them.
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lib_1138 Donating Member (143 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-07-05 01:23 AM
Response to Original message
2. After WWII Europe absorbed 50 Million displaced refugees...
Why haven't Jordan, Sudan, et al absorbed the Palestinians?

Jews are our stallworth allies in progressive politics. It is sad to see them attacked so frequently. This article is well-reasoned.
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King Mongo Donating Member (564 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-07-05 01:27 AM
Response to Reply #2
4. why are Palestinians not allowed to return home
Why did Israel not allow Israelis to return home? Why should other countries give Israelis citizenship in their countries?

Just because Israel practices racial cleansing, that does not mean that other countires should accept this practice.

Israelis should let the natives return home.
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Cervello Donating Member (40 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-07-05 01:38 AM
Response to Reply #4
7. Racial Cleaning?
Besides having NOTHING to do with the article, I must ask, are you saying Israel is engaging in ethnic cleansing? That is a serious charge, one that I have never heard thrown at the Jewish State before. Do you have any proof that Israel is engaged in a systematic policy of killing mass numbers of Palestinian civilians?
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King Mongo Donating Member (564 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-07-05 07:12 AM
Response to Reply #7
18. Proof is easier than denial
That's easy.

In 1948, Israel refused to allow the refugees return. This is racial cleansing. To be precise, people of a certain cultural group went on a trip or were forced to go on a trip and were denied reentry because of their culture.

After 1948, Israel continued to expand its borders, slowly forcing most of the natives into the dead sea. This is another example of racial cleansing

Israel cannot hide the practice of racial cleansing because it is proven with the demographic realities on the ground.
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Cervello Donating Member (40 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-07-05 12:49 PM
Response to Reply #18
24. Sorry
Edited on Fri Jan-07-05 12:56 PM by Cervello
That absolutely does not prove Israel has a policy of ethnic cleansing, racial cleansing, or genocide.
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King Mongo Donating Member (564 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-07-05 01:30 PM
Response to Reply #24
25. I'm not talking about a policy
I was not talking about an existing policy. Rather, I was talking about what has happened and is happening.

It, however, very easy to understand why Israelis are slowly removing Palestinians from the holy land. Here's an example:

The Jewish communities in Judea, Samaria and Gaza are the realization of Zionist values. Settlement of the land is a clear expression of the unassailable right of the Jewish people to the Land of Israel and constitutes an important asset in the defense of the vital interests of the State of Israel. The Likud will continue to strengthen and develop these communities and will prevent their uprooting.
http://www.knesset.gov.il/elections/knesset15/elikud_m.htm


The legal right of Jews settling in Tel Aviv is the same as that of Jews settling in the areas which were conquered in the Six Day War.
http://www.moetzetyesha.co.il/arti.asp?id=44


Everyone understands that the illegal settlements exist for the purpose of not dividing the holy land while preventing a Palestinian majority by slowly removing Palestinians.
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King Mongo Donating Member (564 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-07-05 01:34 PM
Response to Reply #25
26. Plan Dalet
Edited on Fri Jan-07-05 01:35 PM by King Mongo
However, speaking about policy, is the Plan Dalet still active? I understand that it's because of this plan that Israelis rejected the Partition Plan.

In Section 3b the plan describes how to deal with occupied "enemy population centers":

Destruction of villages (setting fire to, blowing up, and planting mines in the debris), especially those population centers which are difficult to control continuously. ... Mounting search and control operations according to the following guidelines: encirclement of the village and conducting a search inside it. In the event of resistance, the armed force must be destroyed and the population expelled outside the borders of the state.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plan_Dalet
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TO Kid Donating Member (565 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-07-05 04:05 PM
Response to Reply #26
32. Israel didn't reject partition
The UN partition resolution was rejected by the Arabs. Israel responded by Proclaiming the State of Israel and the Arabs attacked. And it was the Arabs, not Israel, who told the Palestinians to get out.
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Darranar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-07-05 04:11 PM
Response to Reply #32
34. Not officially, no. It was an opportunity to get their state...
and they seized upon it.

But they had no intention of remaining within their given borders, at least not in the long term.
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QueerJustice Donating Member (457 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-08-05 04:35 PM
Response to Reply #34
51. pray tell us how you know...
...what the intentions of the 1948 Chalutzim were?
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Violet_Crumble Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-08-05 05:16 PM
Response to Reply #51
55. The answer is obvious...
It appears Darranar has done some reading about that period in time. The intentions of the Zionists are pretty well known, as they were well-documented. Do you have a problem with that?

Violet...
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QueerJustice Donating Member (457 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-08-05 09:02 PM
Response to Reply #55
59. yes I do have a problem with that so....
...please enlighten me....how do you know that that was the intentions of the 1948 chalutzim...I have studied this myself and I disagree that this was their intentions ...so please enlighten me.....since you are answering for Darraner.....
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King Mongo Donating Member (564 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-09-05 02:33 AM
Response to Reply #59
68. Zionist intentions in 1948
Well, the Zionist idea in 1948 was to create a "Jewish" State by removing the Palestinian majority. "Removing" is properly understood as "Racial Cleaning".

Today, some people accept the practice of racial cleansing while others don't.
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Darranar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-08-05 11:06 PM
Response to Reply #51
60. I cannot know with certainty what their intentions were...
Edited on Sat Jan-08-05 11:08 PM by Darranar
thoughts cannot be read at this point in time, especially not the fifty-seven-year-old thoughts of dead figures.

But looking at their actions and their statements, which are far from secrets, conclusions can be reached.
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King Mongo Donating Member (564 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-08-05 01:33 AM
Response to Reply #32
43. Saying one thing, doing another
Well, to be precide, some claimed that that they accepted while they or others practiced the Plan Dalet, rejecting it. This is kind of like the Arafat-two-face accusation where one says something and does something else.

Plan D was the basis for the subsequent expulsion of the Palestinians by Israeli forces

The plan was revised in December of that year, after the declaration of partition and again on March 10, 1948 - that is the revision that is before us. The plan was meant to be activated only after the British left, but operations that were part of it were put into effect beforehand.

http://www.mideastweb.org/pland.htm
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eyl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-07-05 05:41 PM
Response to Reply #26
38. As was said,
The Jews accepted the Partition Plan. Plan Dalet was a contingency to defend Israel in case of attack. As it assumed hostilities, it naturally addressed territory not alloted the Jewish state (since there were Jewish communities in territory which was alloted to the Palestinian state, which in the case of hostilities would be expected to come under attack - an eventuality which in fact transpired).

I'm trying to track down a copy of the original Hebrew version, but in the meantime, here's section 3f of the plan:

"Generally, the aim of this plan is not an operation of occupation outside the borders of the Hebrew state. However, concerning enemy bases lying directly close to the borders which may be used as springboards for infiltration into the territory of the state, these must be temporarily occupied and searched for hostiles according to the above guidelines, and they must then be incorporated into our defensive system until operations cease."
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King Mongo Donating Member (564 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-08-05 01:39 AM
Response to Reply #38
44. Plan Dalet
Well, it seems that everyone gets to choose how they wish to understand the Plan Dalet.

According to pro-Palestinian historians, Plan D was the basis for the subsequent expulsion of the Palestinians by Israeli forces. You will have to make up your own mind on this score

Yet, the fact that Plan Dalet was practiced before the partition plan means to me that Jewish immigrants had rejected the partition plan.

The plan was meant to be activated only after the British left, but operations that were part of it were put into effect beforehand

Deir Yassin is an excellent example of such operations.

Destruction of villages (setting fire to, blowing up, and planting mines in the debris), especially those population centers which are difficult to control continuously.

http://www.mideastweb.org/pland.htm


Interestingly, this is something that it still happening today:

Mounting search and control operations according to the following guidelines: encirclement of the village and conducting a search inside it. In the event of resistance, the. armed force must be destroyed and the population must be expelled outside the borders of the state.
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eyl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-08-05 09:36 AM
Response to Reply #44
46. Read the source again.
Edited on Sat Jan-08-05 09:38 AM by eyl
"Yet, the fact that Plan Dalet was practiced before the partition plan means to me that Jewish immigrants had rejected the partition plan. "

Plan D was implemented starting April 1948 - well after partition, and well after hostilities at started. And if you mean that it was planned before the partition - as the source states, it was a contingency plan, created for the circumstance where the Arabs violently rejected partition - which did indeed come to pass.
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King Mongo Donating Member (564 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-08-05 02:36 PM
Response to Reply #46
48. I was wrong
You are right, I should have said "was practiced before the british left". My mistake. :)

What do you think of this statement?


"Plan D can be regarded in many respects as a master plan for expulsion. The plan was not conceived out of the blue - expulsion was considered as one of many means for retaliation against Arab attacks on Jewish convoys and settlements; nevertheless, it was also regarded as one of the best means of ensuring the domination of the Jews in the areas captured by the Israeli army"

Ilan Pappe, a professor at the University of Haifa
http://mondediplo.com/1997/12/palestine
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Violet_Crumble Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-08-05 05:05 PM
Response to Reply #48
54. My 0.02 cents worth...
I think Ilan Pappe's statement about Plan D is pretty much spot on...

Violet...
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TO Kid Donating Member (565 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-07-05 04:03 PM
Response to Reply #18
31. Palestinians brought it on themselves
Israel neither seized land nor expelled any Palestinians during the state's creation. The Jewish immigrants either purchased the land received it as gifts from local landowners (there were many local Arabs who cherished the Bedouin tradition of hospitality to strangers). The whole mess started when Hitler's old pal, the Grand Mufti of Jerusalem, called for the extermination of the Jews and told the Palestinians to leave so they wouldn't get in the way of the killing.
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Darranar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-07-05 04:09 PM
Response to Reply #31
33. Israel did expel Palestinians during the 1948 war. n/t
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King Mongo Donating Member (564 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-08-05 01:24 AM
Response to Reply #31
42. A bit one-sided, don't you think?
That's a bit one-sided, don't you think?

What about the situation where the Irgun, following the guidelines of the Plan Dalet, attacked a village and claimed that they killed many innocent civilians hoping that Palestinians would panic and flee?

What about the many Palestinians who left Haifa because of the war in the city?

If we look at it from a more balanced view, we can see that some Jews did things to encourage Palestinians to flee war and that Israel practiced racial cleansing by not allowing the refugees to return home.
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eyl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-07-05 05:31 PM
Response to Reply #18
37. You are ignoring
the context of the situation.

After the war, Israel was faced with a difficult military and economic position. Besides the normal problems of a new state and the aftermath of the war's devastation, Israel was beginning to receive the first of the massive wave of Jewish refugees from the Arab states (as well as the smaller number of Jewish refugees from the territories which now comprise Gaza and the West Bank). Militarily, it was still surrounded by hostile neighbors, forcing it to remain at a high level of military preperadness(sp). Under the circumstances, it is frankly unrealistic to expect Israel to have also absorbed massive numbers of hostile refugees, who could be expected to side with Israels neighbors if war resumed (remember that the Arab forces included Palestinian irregulars, who were based in and supported by the Palestinian villages). Nevertheless, Israel did offer to repatriate 100,000 refugees after the war; the offer was refused.
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King Mongo Donating Member (564 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-09-05 02:28 AM
Response to Reply #37
67. Negotiations with Arab States
Edited on Sun Jan-09-05 02:28 AM by King Mongo
Here's a more detailed view of the situation.

Israeli foreign policy also made efficient use of the proposals for concessions on its part in order to extricate itself from international pressure, especially that of the United States. On the refugee question, for example, Israel expressed its willingness to consider the absorption of 100,000 refugees in 1949, and an arrangement with Egypt, whereby Egypt would receive desert areas along its border with Israel in exchange for Israel's annexation of the Gaza Strip.
http://iupjournals.org/israel/iss7-1.html
Indiana University Press

I think that Arab States simply felt that they would negotiate if Israel did not practice racial cleansing.

The Arabs rejected these offers, as they were unwilling to take any action that might be construed as recognition of Israel, and made repatriation a precondition for negotiations, something Israel ]rejected.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestinian_exodus
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QueerJustice Donating Member (457 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-08-05 04:32 PM
Response to Reply #18
50. The Dead sea ...
...again...Not the Mediterranean or Red sea?
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King Mongo Donating Member (564 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-09-05 01:34 AM
Response to Reply #50
64. what was the name?
What is the name of that sea between Jordan and the West Bank? For some reason, Israel is constantly expanding towards it while pushing the natives towards it.
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Cassandra Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-07-05 11:43 AM
Response to Reply #4
21. But Palestinians expelling Jews...
from where Jews have lived continuously for centuries is not racist or ethnic cleansing?
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King Mongo Donating Member (564 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-07-05 01:44 PM
Response to Reply #21
28. this was racism and ethnic cleansing
This is racism and ethnic cleansing motivated by what was done to Palestinians. It is wrong and never should have been done. Fortunately, Jews are being compensated for the bad things that were done to them and some Jews are allowed to return to their homelands.

I hope that Palestinians will be treated fairly and kindly.
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Cassandra Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-07-05 01:52 PM
Response to Reply #28
29. Some of it was not retaliatory...
but pure race hatred. This "the Jews started it" is really getting old. Why do you infantalize the Palestinians in that way?
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King Mongo Donating Member (564 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-08-05 01:18 AM
Response to Reply #29
40. don't punish the innocent
Well, Cassandra,

My point-of-view is simple. Innocent people should not be punished because of the crimes of someone else.

Thus, let the Palestinian refugees return home and campaign for the return of Jews to their homeland in Syria along with compensation payments.
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Cassandra Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-08-05 02:36 PM
Response to Reply #40
47. There are many generations of Jews...
who were born in Israel. Where would you consider their home to be?
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King Mongo Donating Member (564 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-08-05 04:42 PM
Response to Reply #47
52. one's home
Their home is whatever they consider it to be. Everyone believes that some place is their home for some reason. I believe that my home is here because this is where I live. Some Israelis think that their home is in Israel because that is where they were born. Some Palestinians refugees believe that there home is in Israel because their parents were prevented from returning to their homes there.
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Violet_Crumble Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-08-05 05:20 PM
Response to Reply #47
56. A question for Cassandra...
There are many generations of Palestinians who were born in what is now Israel and who have not been allowed to return to their homes. Do you consider what happened to them to be ethnic cleansing?

Violet...
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Cassandra Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-08-05 11:48 PM
Response to Reply #56
61. Are we talking about the dead or the living?
Of the Palestinians currently alive, what percentage were born in what is now Israel? I was responding to a post that said that Israeli Jews should go home. More than half are in the only home they've ever known.
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King Mongo Donating Member (564 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-09-05 01:29 AM
Response to Reply #61
63. native Syrian Jews
Edited on Sun Jan-09-05 01:32 AM by King Mongo
Well, the topic was about Jews who were expelled from Syria, not about all Israeli Jews. If Israel is the homeland of the native Syrian Jews who were expelled from Syria, then these Jews should remain in their homeland of Israel. There is no point in fighting to return to one's former homeland in Syria when one believes that Israel is one's home and has no desire to return.

Yet, these Jews from Syria must understand they chose to give up their desire to return to their former homeland in Syria. Palestinians must also choose if they are going to give up their former homeland in Israel or fight for justice and the ability to return to it.
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Coastie for Truth Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-07-05 12:27 PM
Response to Reply #4
22. My wife's family are Syrian Sephardi
Edited on Fri Jan-07-05 12:35 PM by Coastie for Truth
They were expelled from Syria with just the clothes on their backs, and they are not allowed to "return HOME" -- Israel and the United States are their homes now.
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King Mongo Donating Member (564 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-07-05 01:41 PM
Response to Reply #22
27. I hope that they will return home
They should be allowed to return home and should be compensated for any damages. It is my understanding that many Jews are being compensated for the terrible things that were done to them. I believe that Syria badly needs the native Jews who once lived there to return to Syria. Such would encourage the practice of tolerance, understanding and acceptance of other cultures, helping to increase acceptance towards Israel.

Furthermore, the bad things done by Syria should not be used as an excuse to do bad things to Palestinians.
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Coastie for Truth Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-07-05 04:43 PM
Response to Reply #27
35. Peaceful or Shattuck Ave Neo-Lib?
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King Mongo Donating Member (564 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-08-05 01:20 AM
Response to Reply #35
41. What is a Shattuck Ave Neo-Lib?
What is a Shattuck Ave Neo-Lib?
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Coastie for Truth Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-08-05 07:24 PM
Response to Reply #41
57. Shattuck Ave is the UC Berkeley BART Transit Stop
... two blocks toward the Bay from the Main Gate to UC Berkeley.

Shattuck Ave neo-libs are to libs as neo-cons are to cons.

or Shattuck Ave neo-lib:lib::neo-con:con
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King Mongo Donating Member (564 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-09-05 01:38 AM
Response to Reply #57
65. Oh, I see.
What does this have to do with the desire for Jews to be compensated for the damages done to them and for their ability to return home?

In my opinion, these are issues that most people support.
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The Magistrate Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-07-05 04:48 PM
Response to Reply #27
36. And Yet, Your Grace
It is pretty clear Syria used bad things done to Arab Palestinians as an excuse to do bad things to Jews. It would be best for Your Grace to acknowledge most of what Your Grace complains of is universal practice, rather than peculiar to one party in this matter only....
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King Mongo Donating Member (564 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-08-05 01:15 AM
Response to Reply #36
39. justifications for crimes
Honorable Magistrate

I'm sorry that I used the wrong combination of words to explain my point-of-view. Let me say it this way:

If someone steals from you, that does not give you a justification to steal from someone else.

In otherwords, speaking in chronological order, what the Turks did to Jewish immigrants was not a justification for Jews to harm Palestinians. What Jews did to Palestinians was not a justification for Palestinians to harm Jews. What Hitler and Stalin did to Jews was not a justification for Jews to harm Palestinians. What Jews did to Palestinians was not a justification for Syria to harm Jews. What Syria did to Jews is not a justification for what Jews did to Palestinians.

As we can see, many innocent people are harmed in this conflict because they were punished for the crimes performed by someone else who did these crimes because of the crimes of someone else.

So, to get to my point, Syrian Jews must be compensated for any damages and should return to their homeland in Syria. Palestinians must be compensated and should return to their homeland in Isreal.
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lib_1138 Donating Member (143 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-08-05 03:02 PM
Response to Reply #4
49. That is a straw-man argument...
and it side-steps what I said.

Their "home" was no longer their "home." Period. That is what "displaced" means. There was a massive demographic shift and ancestral homes were lost, pertcilularly in what became the iron curtain countries.

Poles, Northern Germans, Slavicks, etc. became West Germans, Bavarians and many, many, many, became Americans.

Why did not Jordan, Libya, and the rest of the Arab countries accept their "brothers?"

I grant you that they could not go "home." I ask why they couldn't go somewhere else?
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Coastie for Truth Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-08-05 07:28 PM
Response to Reply #49
58. Touche'
My wife's "home" is not Syria, but the USA. My "home" is not Russia, but the USA.

Blame the proliferation of "homes" in the Middle East on the Allies' carving up of the Ottoman Empire after WW 1.
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King Mongo Donating Member (564 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-09-05 01:24 AM
Response to Reply #49
62. immigration vs racial cleansing
Each individual thinks that their home is some place for some reason. It is incorrect for us to claim that their home is not where they believe it to be.

I believe that there is a big difference between voluntary relocation and forced relocation. People who choose to relocate often choose to create a new home. Yet, people who are forced to relocate generally fight to return. Thus, it is wise to not prevent people from returning home.
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Coastie for Truth Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-09-05 12:53 PM
Response to Reply #62
70. Blame Churchill and Lawrence
for redrawing the map of the Middle East after WW1, creating "Administrative Districts" for the convenience of His Britannic Majesty's Colonial Office, and rewarding all manner of local potentates by transporting them to new lands and giving them kingships -like the post WW1 "newly minted" ruling families in Jordan (Trans-Jordan), Iraq, Syria.

And why is there no Shattuck Neo-Lib outcry for the self-determination of the Chaldeans, or the Assyrians (Syrian and Iraqi Christians), Kurds, the Zoroastrian minority in Iran, etc.

And how did the poor cousins of the House of Saud rate kinships and artificial nations?

Me thinks the Shattuck neo-libs are a bit short sighted.
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King Mongo Donating Member (564 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-09-05 01:51 PM
Response to Reply #70
71. One's home is one's home regardless of political borders
Edited on Sun Jan-09-05 01:55 PM by King Mongo
The title of this forum is "Israeli/Palestinian Affairs"

I'll be happy to discuss the problems regarding Kurds, Tibetans and others in the appropriate forum. But, since we are in this forum, how about if we talk about Israeli/Palestinian affairs? That's just a thought to consider. Take your time and don't rush it.

As for redrawing maps, I think that a person's home is their home regardless of political borders or the state of the current government. No matter how maps are drawn, a person's home is still their home. Thus, I think that one who is prevented from returning home is likely to fight for justice and the ability to return home, regardless of how good the British are in drawing maps.
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lib_1138 Donating Member (143 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-09-05 05:45 PM
Response to Reply #62
72. Thus the current fight by Prussions to retake their Polish lands...
It doesn't matter anymore. The reolcation was complete.

Look again at my original post. Almost ALL post-WW2 relocations were forced. But somehow after a generation, they were absorbed.

It is only the so-called Palestinians that are refused to be accepted by their so-called "brothers" in the ME.

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King Mongo Donating Member (564 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-10-05 01:14 AM
Response to Reply #72
73. fighting for justice
Palestinians are Palestinians because that's who they believe that they are. The refusal of non-Palestinians to recognize the Palestinian identity does not mean that Palestinians are wrong in believing that they are Palestinians. In the same sense, Zionists are Zionists because they want to be Zionists. Zionists have a reason to be Zionists for the same reason that Palestinians have a reason to be Palestinians.

Maybe Palestinians stand up and fight for their rights due to the nature of their removal with its roots in religion? I do not understand why other people do not stand up and fight for their rights.
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puddycat Donating Member (884 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-07-05 01:36 AM
Response to Reply #2
6. you think what the Israelis do to the Palestinians as "progressive"?
think again.
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The Magistrate Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-07-05 01:40 AM
Response to Reply #6
10. If We Are To Play Twenty Questions, Ma'am
Do you consider the conduct of the Palestine Authority, and the various armed Arab Palestinian militia bodies particularly proggressive...?
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puddycat Donating Member (884 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-07-05 02:00 AM
Response to Reply #10
12. oh, you mean the groups USA-CIA /Israel-Shin Bet promoted?
Edited on Fri Jan-07-05 02:02 AM by puddycat
Or do you mean just Arafat's Fatah?

Israel and USA's intelligence agencies created the problem that exists now. Like the mess the CIA made in Iraq, and Afghanistan years ago, they made in the Holy Land. An example of just how fucked up American foreign policy is. Our government intentionally creates chaos.

All to serve the needs of the fascists in power. That's how they breed--by making the rest of us bleed.

Americans are stupid, thinking they are safe as long as they let these foreign policy games continue, thinking they can drive around in their gas guzzling hummers and let the rest of the world eat cake.
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The Magistrate Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-07-05 02:08 AM
Response to Reply #12
13. You Did Not, Ma'am, Answer The Question
It was a pretty simple one.

If you are under the impression Hamas exists solely because of Israel, you would find it adviseable to look into the history of fundamentalist organizations in the region, particularly the Moslem Brotherhood. You greatly over-rate the powetr of intelligence agencies where genuine mass movements are concerned.
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puddycat Donating Member (884 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-07-05 02:47 AM
Response to Reply #13
15. do you deny that Shin Bet had a hand in promoting Hamas?
They wanted to destabilize Arafat, so they promoted Hamas leadership.

I'm not defending these organizations of any side--neither the CIA, nor Hamas, nor Arafat, nor Shin Bet, have ever really served the people. They serve the power-brokers, the war-mongerers, the rich.

The ordinary citizens of all nations are just pawns in their games.
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The Magistrate Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-07-05 03:01 AM
Response to Reply #15
16. The Change In My Couch, Ma'am
Is not a major element in my finances....

Hamas came into being without Israel, being rooted in a movement long-standing in Gaza that was derived from Egypt and dates back at least to the third decade of the last century. It is a movement with broad support throughout the region, then, and now. A rather poor tactical decision by elements of the Israeli security services played no meaningful role, though it pleases some to exaggerate this minor element, generally because it enables them to avoid coming to grips with the fact that a principle prop of something they define as "good", namely the current round of violent engagement against Israel in the cause of Arab Palestine, is an organization that is murderous, reactionary, obscurantist, and racist to its core, and it is understandable people of left and progressive sentiments find this contradiction difficult to reconcile. But if it can be blamed on Israel and the C.I.A., then all falls into place, and there is no need to deal with the nature of the organization, or the implications of the degree of support it enjoys among the people of Arab Palestine; it is not their fault....
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eyl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-07-05 06:10 AM
Response to Reply #15
17. While I've heard this accusation,
Edited on Fri Jan-07-05 06:13 AM by eyl
it suffers from distorted facts.

It i true that Israel gave some support to Hamas (more properly, to the organization which would later become Hamas) in the 70s and early 80s. It is also true that this was done, at least in part, to divert support from the PLO. W

hat is not mentioned by those making the accusation, however, is that at that point in time, the organization did not use violence (while the PLO did, hence the Israeli desire to diminish its support), and was in fact primarily concerned with social affairs, ahving little to do with politics. Hamas' use of violence began with the first intifada (as did the name Hamas itself, which first appeared in 1987), at which time Israeli support had long ceased.
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King Mongo Donating Member (564 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-08-05 04:46 PM
Response to Reply #17
53. Good argument
This is a good argument.
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King Mongo Donating Member (564 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-09-05 02:18 AM
Response to Reply #17
66. Israel supported Hamas after even after suicide attacks
What about this perspective?

According to Robert Fisk , Israeli support for Hamas continued after the signing of the Oslo accords .

http://www.globalresearch.org/view_article.php?aid=551455571
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eyl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-09-05 05:23 AM
Response to Reply #66
69. Given some of the stuff I've seen from him
I'm not about to take Robert Fisk's uncorroborated word. Certainly not second-hand - Szamuely doesn't even give a reference to Fisk's article (I'll save a thorough deconstruction of the article for when I have more time, but as an aside, I liked the insinuation that the UPI quote in the 3rd paragraph - an assessment of the results should Hamas gain power - somehow showed that Hamas was created by Israel).
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pelsar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-08-05 03:55 AM
Response to Reply #15
45. the shin-bet...
and the mossad and the IDF actually do serve "the people"...infact we have quite a bit of confidence in our various defense agencies within our govt.

It is they that work 24/7 to keep many of us alive, gathering info and keeping those that have killed or plan to kill us and our brethren far away.... (or dead)

hate to break it to ya....but we are "one" with our secret service agencies.....
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Cervello Donating Member (40 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-07-05 02:12 AM
Response to Reply #12
14. Read The Article
It addresses this as well.
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Coastie for Truth Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-07-05 12:33 PM
Response to Reply #6
23. You think what the Arab League Boycott Office and Big Oil
have done to American Engineers (not just Jews - try females, Blacks, Latinos, and Gays, too) is progressive?

Believe me - Organic Chem I and II and Physical Chem I and II and Unit Ops I and II and III and Chem E Thermo I and II and Chemical Reaction Kinetics - and the MS and PhD flavors thereof are not fun courses to boost your QPA while partying --- and then when you graduate --- Big Oil sez "We can't hire YOUR KIND" (which could be Jews, Blacks, Latinos, females, or Gays) and mumble something about the Arab League Boycott Office.
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Cervello Donating Member (40 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-07-05 01:41 AM
Response to Reply #2
11. Yes, The Article Is Very Good
While it is not a defense of Israeli policy, and in fact disagrees with the West Bank/Gaza occupation, it proves that Israel is neither the cause or solution to the problems in Palestine or the Middle East.
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Darranar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-07-05 03:44 PM
Response to Reply #2
30. Attacking Israeli policy and attacking Jews are very different things. n/t
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The Magistrate Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-07-05 01:26 AM
Response to Original message
3. There Would Be, Sir
Quite a train of wars and revolutions in the Near East that would have occured in the last half century....
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King Mongo Donating Member (564 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-07-05 01:28 AM
Response to Reply #3
5. revolutions
Yes, and as a result of this, most of the nations in the Near East would be democracies with the people benefiting from the oil sales, just like Venezuela.
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The Magistrate Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-07-05 01:38 AM
Response to Reply #5
8. That Seems Unlikely To Me, Your Grace
Revolution generally simply shifts the burden of tyranny from one shoulder to another. In a region where the principal loyalties are to clan and sect, power is likely to remain in close-held hands determined to do down all the rest, though the name of these hands may change with dizzying frequency.

"Capitalism is the expoitation of man by man. Socialism is just the opposite."
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Cervello Donating Member (40 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-07-05 01:39 AM
Response to Reply #5
9. You Didn't Read The Article
Did you? It goes over this exact point.
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Coastie for Truth Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-07-05 10:48 AM
Response to Original message
19. Some Very Strong Points of Agreement with Joffe
Edited on Fri Jan-07-05 10:54 AM by Coastie for Truth
I am in complete, 100% agreement with the following points--

    1. "Reactionary Utopia vs. Modernity A common enmity toward Israel is the only thing that prevents Arab modernizers and traditionalists from tearing their societies apart. Fundamentalists vie against secularists and reformist Muslims for the fusion of mosque and state under the green flag of the Prophet. And a barely concealed class struggle pits a minuscule bourgeoisie and millions of unemployed young men against the power structure, usually a form of statist cronyism that controls the means of production. Far from creating tensions, Israel actually contains the antagonisms in the world around it.

    2. "Regimes vs. Peoples The existence of Israel cannot explain the breadth and depth of the Mukhabarat states (secret police states) throughout the Middle East. With the exceptions of Jordan, Morocco, and the Gulf sheikdoms, which gingerly practice an enlightened monarchism, all Arab countries (plus Iran and Pakistan) are but variations of despotism?from the dynastic dictatorship of Syria to the authoritarianism of Egypt. Intranational strife in Algeria has killed nearly 100,000, with no letup in sight. Saddam's victims are said to number 300,000. After the Khomeinists took power in 1979, Iran was embroiled not only in the Iran-Iraq War but also in barely contained civil unrest into the 1980s. Pakistan is an explosion waiting to happen. Ruthless suppression is the price of stability in this region.

    3. "Finally, the most popular what-if issue of them all: Would the Islamic world hate the United States less if Israel vanished? Like all what-if queries, this one, too, admits only suggestive evidence. To begin, the notion that 5 million Jews are solely responsible for the rage of 1 billion or so Muslims cannot carry the weight assigned to it. Second, Arab-Islamic hatreds of the United States preceded the conquest of the West Bank and Gaza. Recall the loathing left behind by the U.S.-managed coup that restored the shah's rule in Tehran in 1953, or the U.S. intervention in Lebanon in 1958. As soon as Britain and France left the Middle East, the United States became the dominant power and the No. 1 target. Another bit of suggestive evidence is that the fiercest (unofficial) anti-Americanism emanates from Washington?s self-styled allies in the Arab Middle East, Egypt and Saudi Arabia. Is this situation because of Israel? or because it is so convenient for these regimes to "busy giddy minds with foreign quarrels" (as Shakespeare's Henry IV put it) to distract their populations from their dependence on the "Great Satan"


My own experience in the energy industry (but not the oil industry - they didn't hire "my kind" when I got out of school)- is a fourth factor. The "Middle East" is a lot like the old, Mafia and "machine politics" cities of the North East and the Rust Belt: payoffs, cronyism, and "protection".

"Protection" is just like in the Grade B crime flicks - "If you don't pay us off - you might just have a fire in your candy store."

Combine "protection" with a "Marial Boat Lift" export of trouble makers - or any forced or semi-forced emigration policy directed against "trouble makers."

The Middle East is populated by lots of angry, bitter, well educated but under-employed and unemployed young men. They could "make trouble" for the corrupt regimes or the regimes' protectors (the US, the UK, and "Big Oil" ). So, these "angry young men" (more precisely those who would organize them into terrorist cells) are "paid off" and "exported" to where they can play their macho games without endangering the local powers that be.

Further evidence of the "protection" model is the expose of one major multi-national oil company's direct payoffs (i.e., not routed through any royal families or charities or madrasahs) to Indonesian and Philippine terrorist groups, ostensibly to protect the company's Indonesian and Philippine interests and assets.
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Coastie for Truth Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-07-05 10:54 AM
Response to Reply #19
20. Angry Young Men Come Home
Note that when the exported "angry young men" returned to the Kingdom of Saudi Arabia - and turned their talents against the royals and American-British-Dutch nationals and businesses, the Saudis acted quickly and mercilessly. And, without a Labour Party or a "Peace Now" movement or even a Berkeley "neo-liberal" or a Cal State SF "neo-liberal" to tell them to slow down or to criticize them.
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