Abbas takes truce case to Hamas

[number6]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/4185521.stm

Palestinian leader Mahmoud Abbas has held a first round of talks with the militant group Hamas, in an effort to get it to declare a ceasefire.
Mr Abbas is under intense pressure from Israel to find a way to stop militants launching attacks on Israeli targets in and around the Gaza Strip.

snip - ....

[Violet_Crumble]

1. I'm wondering if there's any point...

Israel showed last time when Abbas managed to succcessfully get Hamas to declare a ceasefire that it wasn't interested in ceasefires. I doubt anything's changed when it comes to Israeli demands since then....

Violet...

[eyl]

2. Last time Hamas declared a ceasefire

(I'm assuming you mean the summer of 2003), it wasn't anything of the sort. Attacks on Israelis continued throughout all that period (though admittedly at a lesser pace).

[Violet_Crumble]

3. I wasn't aware of that...

Are you talking about attacks by Hamas or other groups? I'd be interested in knowing about what attacks Hamas carried out (obviously what other groups did is irrelevant considering it's Hamas that declared a ceasefire), when they happened, and when the attacks by Israel happened...

Violet...

[eyl]

6. Not exactly

The ceasefire was declared by both Hamas and IJ; the AAMB later joined up. There were still a lot of attacks (mainly shootings) by these groups which caused no casualties.

For example, the second day after declaring the ceasefire, there wasan attack on an IDF outpost; a day later, a Palestinian was killed while attacking IDF troops (and there were a few more incidents that day). I'm leaving out the Romanian worker killed on June 30, since the AAMB wasn't at that point part of the ceasefire. The day after that, there were at least three incidents of shootings at Israelis (one of which was lightly wounded) and a roadside bomb was found. And so on and so forth (including AT missile and mortar fire on settlements).

I can't find exactly when AAMB and Fatah joined in the ceasefire, but IIRC it was sometime in the first week.

It should also be noted that some observers considered the Palestinian organizations' adherence to the ceasefire to be solely tactical (to take time to regroup), something specifically said by IJ.

Since there were (almost) no casualties in these events, media attention was low, so in most cases the organization involved was not named in the articles. However, on July 7th, IJ comitted a suicide bombing in Kfar Yabetz, killing one (besides the bomber, of course). Later, more suicide attacks followed, including by Hamas.

[drdon326]

7. You forgot alot....

Aug 19...hamas blew up egged bus #2 killing 21 dangerous Israelis having the nerve to return home from work and the 136 injured (or what hamas calls a near success)

[eyl]

8. I was deliberately focusing on the hudna's early days

to avoid arguments as to whether an attack was in retaliation to Israeli actions or not.

[Name removed]

9. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[drdon326]

12. deleted

.

[Violet_Crumble]

10. Were those two attacks carried out by Hamas?

The links didn't say anything about that. Could that possibly be because Hamas didn't carry them out? So why would Israel attack Hamas?

I'm aware of what some observers considered at the time.I take that particular observation to translate as some folk not ever wanting an end to the violence...

Violet...

[eyl]

11. As I said

since there weren't casualties for the most part, the perpetrators weren't identified. However, as I pointed out, IJ - which had also comitted to the ceasefire - carried out a suicide bombing about a week after the beginning of the ceasefire.

For the most part, truce violations came from the AAMB and Fatah, and from IJ. I haven't been able to find references to exactly what Hamas was doing (except for references to them rearming) during that time. AFAIK, the first clash was an IDF raid on a Hamas bomb factory, in which an IDF soldier and a Hamas member were killed on August 8. However, as I pointed out, the truce was decidedly porous by that time, since the other organizations which were part of the ceasefire had been violating it repeatedly, as I mentioned in my previous post. This was followed by two suicide attacks on August 12 (Hamas & Fatah), and so on.

You're also correct that Israel was not part of the truce, and did not welcome it. In Israel, the ceasefire was basically seen as an attempt by Abbas to avoid the road map's requirement of dismantling the terrorist infrastructure. For Israel, therefore, the ceasefire was essentially useless; so long as these groups exist (especially Hamas, which is ideologically comitted to Israel's destruction), we knew they would resume attacks sooner or later, all the more effectively for having the opportunity to rearm and regroup.

[drdon326]

4. Ohhhh....the now "infamous" hudna....who could forget that....

http://www.mfa.gov.il/MFA/MFAArchive/2000_2009/2003/8/Details%20of%20Terror%20Attacks%20and%20Attempted%20Attacks%20si

.............................also.................................

However, a careful examination of Palestinian terrorist organization activity during the period of the hudna reveals that during the 51 days there were 280 terrorist attacks perpetrated against Israel ( 6 of them lethal ) in which 27 Israeli citizens and one foreign worker were killed and 152 civilians were wounded. In addition, Israeli security forces foiled 54 attacks while the Palestinian security forces avoided taking any effective action to frustrate terrorism. Even though in some areas in the PA-administered territories there was a decrease in overall terrorist activity during the hudna (especially on the part of Hamas), the region of Samaria on the West Bank was particularly problematic area throughout the entire period. The terrorist infrastructure located there, especially that of Hamas, continued initiating attacks to roughly the same extent as before the hudna went into effect, attacking mainly on the Israeli side of the border .

http://www.intelligence.org.il/eng/bu/arafat/ar_1_04.htm

[drdon326]

5. The HUDNA Charade.

51 days of HUDNA

280 Terrorist attacks.....27 dead israelis
1 dead foreign visitor
152 injured

54 foiled attempted attacks


yes, quite an achievement.

Can't wait for HUDNA II.

oh, but THIS time its different,right? Riiiiight