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Deja Q Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-08-05 10:30 AM
Original message
What started this conflict?
Edited on Wed Jun-08-05 10:31 AM by HypnoToad
And how will it end?

Will it end?

History was never my strong point...




edit: Spelling
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SteppingRazor Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-08-05 10:36 AM
Response to Original message
1. The very existence of Israel started it.
No, it won't end.

Any other questions? :)

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whistle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-08-05 10:38 AM
Response to Original message
2. Humm, do you have about 12 semesters available to read and learn
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Lerkfish Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-08-05 10:39 AM
Response to Original message
3. I'm no expert...
but the most recent flavor of this conflict, I THINK, was because after WWII, Israel needed a homeland, and the place they needed was occupied at the time by palestinians.

that's the simple version, then its gets way more complicated but essentially, it comes down to revenge for the last killing begets the next killing to the other side, lather, rinse, repeat.

This is from someone who is neither pro israeli-sided or pro palestinian, just anti-conflict.


so...I prolly should've kept my mouth shut, sorry.
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Igel Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-08-05 11:23 AM
Response to Reply #3
9. The most recent flavor is after WWII; but
the previous flavor was pretty much the same (during WWII), and the flavor before that was trivally different (from 1918-WWII). The power relations were different, but the enmity was pretty much the same. "Flavored with orchid extract" and "vanilla" may sound different, but refer to the same flavor of the same aldehyde.

It's just that the further back you go, the more preconceptions are shattered, and the harder it is to maintain the current belief in perpetual Palestinian rectitude.

Until, of course, you get to times that are ahistorical, in which case the rectitude is again asserted as a fundamental belief.
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Colorado Blue Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-08-05 01:00 PM
Response to Reply #3
17. Well, yes and no. The Jewish people have lived here forever,
for about 5,000 years. Also, large communities of Middle Eastern Jews have existed continuously throughout the region.

After the rise of Islam, many Jewish tribes, especially in Arabia, were conquered, lost everything, and were expelled. Subsequently they became second-class citizens, at best living peacefully and sometimes happily, and were reviled as monkeys and dogs and victimized, at worst.

Something to look up: the word "dhimmi" or "dhimmitude". In my opinion, it's impossible to understand WHY the Palestinians fled in 1948 without understanding 1) their fear (obvious) but 2) their essential conviction that Jews, being second class people, monkeys and dogs, could never outfight the Arab armies. The warrior culture is very important in the Arab culture whereas Jews weren't even allowed to ride horses.

Jews and Christians in Islam lived in this condition called "dhimmitude". This is a sort of second-class citizenship in which they were allowed to worship BUT - were considered a lower order than Muslims. Treatment ranged from OK but second class to violent. It should be noted, this WAS a lot better than the treatment afforded to people NOT "of the book", such as Pagans. They were simply wiped out or forced to convert.

The modern immigration of European Jews, fleeing centuries of persecution in Christian lands, began during the Ottoman Empire. After WWI, the region was taken over by the British and the carcass carved up by the British and the French (Sykes-Picot Agreement) and Balfour Declaration, ceding part of the "Palestine Mandate" - west of the Jordan - to Jewish people for their state.

This idea had the support both of the League of Nations and of ARAB leadership in the person of Emir Faisal, the Hashemite leader, son of the Sherif of Mecca. The Jordanian leaders are of his family. The Hashemites trace their lineage directly to Mohammed. In the movie "Lawrence of Arabia" he was played by Alec Guinness, and was vital to the British overthrow of the Turks. Obviously, oil was a prime motive for this British action but also geostrategic control of the M.E. and Central Asia.

It was thought to be a win-win situation: the region was quite sparsely populated, had fallen into disrepair under the Ottomans. The Jews would bring money, modernization and a glimpse of outside culture to the region. Both Arabs and Jews would benefit. This vision was Faisal's and it was the Zionists' as well.

Unfortunately, at the same time this happened, so did the Bolshevik revolution in Russia. The notorious forgery "Protocols of the Elders of Zion" was published and disseminated throughout the world, including the Middle East. This document originally was a FRENCH book, not involving Jews at all. It was framed as a political argument involving Machiavelli, that found its way to Czarist Russia, where Jews and Masons were introduced into its themes of political manouevering. The Russian title, I believe, was "The Jewish Peril." It is a notorious piece of antisemitic crap that is still being taught AS FACT in Middle Eastern schools.

This book proposes the thesis, common today, that Jews Are Conspiring To Take Over The World. At one point Henry Ford put a copy into the glovebox of every car he produced. I have do doubt but that affected the way certain Arab cliques regarded the Jewish settlers.

Extant already, was a point of view about Jews from centuries of Islamic resentment against them, for not having converted. People were used to thinking of Jews in certain unflattering terms, and now along comes this antisemitic European book. I think the combination of the two philosophies was deadly.

In any case, many Europeans, including many British people, widely blamed the Jewish people for the Bolshevik revolution.

The Arabs, on the other hand, were admired and romanticized. Lawrence wrote of them admiringly and their dash and courage during WWI were well known. Before that, however, "Orientalism" had been popular for at least a century. Great painters limned dramatic scenes of sensuous odalisques, camels in sandstorms, gorgeous Arab steeds riden by handsome warriors with falcons on their wrists.

Jews, on the other hand - well, we all know about the stereotypes involving Jews. And, the British needed oil, above all, and always - they needed oil.

So support for the Zionist cause was sporadic and eventually the British turned against the Jews. They appointed a very bad man, over Arab objections, to be "Mufti of Jerusalem" and shortly thereafter brutal riots broke out and many Jews, including innocent dhimmi Jews, were murdered. So were many moderate Arabs. This Mufti's name was Haj Amin al Husseini. He's worth studying.

A series of British "White Papers", responding to the riots, reduced the amount of land originally proposed and approved for the Jewish state by the Balfour Declaration, the Faisal-Weizmann Agreement and the League of Nations, to a fraction of its original size.

This violence and betrayal continued to be the pattern. Chamberlain famously declared, "If we must offend either the Arabs or the Jews - by all means, offend the Jews!"

The Mufti eventually was evicted by the British when they realized how dangerous he really was. He then fomented a coup in Iraq, in 1941, killing many people including Jews, and spent the war years in Berlin working for Hitler. His poison, calling for the total extermination of all Jews, was broadcast throughout the region via the radio. He helped train Bosnia Muslim stormtroopers. This is responsible for some of the stress between Serbs and Bosnians to this day.

Earlier, the Jewish immigrants had bought land from Arab and Turkish landlords at exorbitant prices, reclaiming it from desert and swamp. Arab immigration and income levels rose as well. But, as the riots continued and WWII stormclouds gathered, the British FORBADE further land sales to Jews and severely limited Jewish immigration. Refugee ships were blockaded, even sunk.

By 1948, Jews owned or controlled a substantial portion of the land the UN finally partitioned to them - about 8% of the total west of the Jordan. Most of this, it should be noted, consists to this day of the Negev Desert - some 60% of Israel's total area.

The Jews accepted this thin strip, which excluded the majority of their population and their desired capital - in Jerusalem. The Arabs rejected the Partition. Though the charter of Israel specifically promised safety and respect and democratic rights for people of ALL faiths, her existence was completely rejected by the Arabs. Many STILL vow to destroy her.

The Jews were in a Catch-22: they wanted to buy land but were forbidden to. The Holocaust had devastasted world Jewry, killing nearly half the total Jewish population of the world. The Arabs promised to kill the rest, in very explicit speeches. Jewish communities throughout the Middle East were being threatened in speeches - even one famous one in the UN, by Haykal Pasha, Egyptian Ambassador to the UN. The British had attempted to disarm the Jewish soldiers even as the Jewish leaders, already fighting, prepared to declare their state. At one point I believe the British army even threatened to fight with Egypt's army. The Transjordanian Arab League was commanded by an Englishman. The Arab armies were well equipped.

On the day Eretz Israel was declared, she was attacked by five armies as well as the locals. Approximately 700,000 Palestinians fled. Accounts vary as to why. Probably the truth is a mixture of all these factors: they were chased away by Israeli fighters; they were told to leave by Arab leadership, promising they'd be able to return in two weeks because all the Jews were dead; they were scared shitless. Israeli historians have gone over and over the records and there are several different accounts. Arab records are sealed.

Subsequently, the ancient Jewish communities of the Middle East were harrassed and forced to flee. Some 900,000 people, about 600,000 of whom went to Israel, lost their homes, their jobs, their communities and many lost their lives.

There have been several wars since and endless terror, followed by endless Israeli reprisal. Palestinian statehood was turned down in 1949 and again, by Arafat. I hope, with him gone, and IF the militants can be corralled, a free and peaceful Palestinian state can now be created.

I hope this makes some sense. I've been studying this most of my life and it's so complicated nobody can possibly know all or tell all sides. Probably for every person involved there is a story and a truth.

Here's a Wikipedia link:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arab_Israeli_conflict
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forgethell Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-08-05 10:50 AM
Response to Original message
4. It will end.
But only when one side or the other is totally defeated.
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SteppingRazor Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-08-05 10:52 AM
Response to Reply #4
5. But what does that mean?
For radical Palestinian groups, the conflict will not end until there is no state of Israel.
For hardline conservative Israelis, the conflict will not end until any and all Palestinian dissent is crushed.
Neither option is realistically attainable, ergo, this conflict will never end.
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forgethell Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-08-05 11:02 AM
Response to Reply #5
6. For the Palestinians it means
the total genocide of the Jewish people in the current land of Israel, and the establishment of a Muslim state.

For the Israelis it means, an end to terrorism, the establishment of an independent and peaceful state for the Palestinians, and the cessation of all hostilities. All leading to the continued existence of Israel as a Jewish state.

Without going into my reasons, except to say I disapprove of terrorism as a political weapon, and it is only the Palestinians who are now using it, I'm rooting for the Israelis.
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SteppingRazor Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-08-05 11:05 AM
Response to Reply #6
7. I appreciate your view. But.. (you knew there's be a but)
Me, I don't think there's a good horse in this race. I disagree that the Palestinians are the only ones using terrorism in this campaign. As does Amnesty International and Human Rights Watch.
I'm not saying I'm on the Palestinians side, mind you. I think both sides have no claim to the moral high ground anymore.
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forgethell Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-08-05 12:12 PM
Response to Reply #7
13. It is your right to
have and express your own view.
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drdon326 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-08-05 11:13 AM
Response to Reply #6
8. forgethell...Congratulations. I believe you are 100 % correct.
Edited on Wed Jun-08-05 11:28 AM by drdon326
For the Palestinians TERRORISTS it means the total genocide of the Jewish people in the current land of Israel, and the establishment of a Muslim state.


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forgethell Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-08-05 12:13 PM
Response to Reply #8
14. thank you for the correction.
I meant to put that in, but inadvertently left it out.
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Guy_Montag Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-08-05 11:26 AM
Response to Reply #6
10. Please check the rules
"Do not call Palestinians "terrorists" unless you are actually talking about people who blow up cafes or busses filled with civilians."
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drdon326 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-08-05 11:31 AM
Response to Reply #10
11. Or sending 12 and 13 year olds to kill innocent jews...
eating pizza or riding on a bus.
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pelsar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-08-05 12:12 PM
Response to Reply #11
12. my predection....
when it will end....when the arab countries surrounding israel give up their "negative attitude toward israel....If it wasnt for them, this whole thing would have started and finished in 1948. Supporting and aiding in jew/israeli/zionist hatred via TV shows, movies, books etc simply keeps the fire of hate going.....and keeps us very defensive/aggressive.

When they stop supporting the jihadnikim and the palesteniain society and other arab states "internalizes and accepts israel as fact within the middle east...then we shall see peace.
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forgethell Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-08-05 12:14 PM
Response to Reply #10
15. I stand corrected n/t
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Behind the Aegis Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-08-05 12:30 PM
Response to Original message
16. Easy-peasy
An intense hate of Jews. The birth of Israel was just one more link in the chain.
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Colorado Blue Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-08-05 01:01 PM
Response to Original message
18. Please see my post #17, if you can read it without falling
asleep:)

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Coastie for Truth Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-08-05 02:07 PM
Response to Original message
19. At one level
it will cool down when both the Koran and the Torah are stripped of super-natural and science fiction and things that require blind faith to accept -- kind of like "Jefferson's Bible" which is characterized by the noted Unitarian-Universalist theologian, Forrest Church, as

In 1794, President Thomas Jefferson set out to uncover the essence of true religion from the Gospels by extracting Jesus' message of absolute love and service from the annunciation, virgin birth, and even the resurrection. Completed in 1819, this little book is the result of Jefferson's efforts.


At another level it will cool down when religious fundamentalists of all flavors (Haredi, Wahabi, Evangelical) realize that the true path to "salvation" and "God's Grace" or whatever is through "Good Works" and not "Faith" and concomitantly realize that fundamentalist religion is, as Karl Marx wrote, an opium that takes our eyes off of the blind, the lame, the sick, the hungry, and the oppression -- to focus on the "salvation" or "God's Grace" through "faith."

And probably some water redistribution, and concomitantly some sharing of the oil riches with the Palestinian (and Arabian) proletariat whose birthright that oil is.
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Lithos Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-08-05 03:15 PM
Response to Original message
20. Locking
Per I/P guidelines - New threads must be based on recent news or op-ed pieces
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