Jewish cemetery hit by 117th attack in 15 years

[Colorado Blue]

Police are investigating a racist attack on a Jewish cemetery in which 87 graves were desecrated.
It is the 117th attack on the West Ham Jewish cemetery in east London in 15 years. Some of the graves had stood for 150 years but were pushed over or broken over the last 10 days. Others were daubed with graffiti, or sprayed with swastikas.

The doors to a mausoleum building in the centre of the cemetery had been forced open and more swastikas sprayed on the outside.

snip

"Whoever did this would have had to have put some real effort in to push the stones over because they are deep in the ground. That is one thing that is so upsetting. These idiots have tried really hard to do damage. They have kicked in the door to a 19th century mausoleum dedicated to two members of the Rothschild family and have spraypainted a swastika ... on the side.

"These graves have been here in peace for 120 years and these mindless thugs have ruined that forever."

The incident is the third desecration of Jewish headstones in Britain this year. Graves were smashed, pushed over and broken in an attack in Rainsough cemetery in Prestwich, Manchester, last week. Swastikas and SS signs were daubed on 12 gravestones in Aldershot municipal cemetery in Hampshire in January. Five cemeteries were desecrated in 2004. The desecrations come as the number of anti-Semitic incidents in Britain increase. There were 532 such incidents last year, the highest since records began 20 years ago.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk_news/story/0,,1507685,00.html

[Ken Burch]

1. Holy shit, what kind of people live near that cemetary?

That's almost eight attacks a year!

If the neighbors say "we didn't know" I'm gonna fuckin' heave.

[Colorado Blue]

2. We have a couple of British contributors. Perhaps they

can tell us more about these neighborhoods.

[Violet_Crumble]

3. It's possible neigbours wouldn't hear things...

I live across the road from a park and there's been stuff happen in there that I would have thought I'd have heard in progress, but if the telly's on or I'm at the back of the house or asleep, then I don't tend to hear. And some cemetaries can be huge things, which wouldn't help. Sounds more like onsite security's needed in cases like this one...

I'm wondering what this article has to do with the I/P conflict and why it was posted in the I/P forum, rather than in the LBN forum where the same poster earlier posted an article on vandalism in Hungary http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=102&topic_id=1551346 Obviously there must be some difference between vandalism in Hungary and Britain that I'm not yet aware of :)

Violet...

[Ken Burch]

4. The relevance to I/P issues is in the continuation of

European antisemitism, and its implications regarding 1)the continued need for a Jewish state and 2)the responsibilities of those who criticize Israeli policies to be vigilant against antisemitism at all times.

[Violet_Crumble]

5. No, that doesn't work...

Are you saying that the I/P conflict shouldn't and can't be discussed without anti-semitism taking a dominant role in the discussions? I hope not, because that's just falling into the clutch of those who like to steer any discussion of the I/P conflict into the area of antisemitism and merrily play the 'They're the victims, not the other bunch!!!' game. I'm not seeing at all what this particular article has to do with the conflict at all, and trying to bend and squeeze it to fit somewhere where it doesn't isn't all that impressive, imo. And again, why does a similar article on Hungarian vandalism end up in LBN and not here if what you say might be the reason is actually the reason. What's so different about it because it's British?

Violet...

[Colorado Blue]

6. I'd like to respond to an implied criticism of the placement

of this article in I/P.

First, the article, as said above, CLEARLY impacts I/P.

It cannot be denied that Israel was FOUNDED because bigotry against Jews has made it impossible for us to live normally on the sufferance of others, as second class citizens, or in ghettos. This became pretty obvious after the Holocaust although it was quite apparent long before then.

Israel, as the Jewish state, obviously is implicated in Jewish matters and in recent years, perception of Jews and Israel have become increasingly linked in a negative way, because of 9/11, the War on Terror and Iraq, and the intifada.

The three events have overlapped not only in time, but also in consciousness, in the media, in the press. TV images of Arabs and/or Muslims being killed don't distinguish the hows or the whys. They simply blend together into a hideous montage. Attacks on Jews and Israelis, on the other hand, can't be predicted and therefore can't be filmed. All that's left to put on TV are the bits and pieces. But the retaliations and the attempts to prevent further attacks ALL make the tube.

Attacks on Jews and Jewish institutions have soared since 9/11. The war in Iraq has been widely blamed on Jewish people and on Israel. This has rebounded directly on Israel and on Diaspora Jews worldwide. Anybody who doesn't believe this has merely to visit LBN or GD. Even Howard Dean is now under attack for protesting the dissemination of disgusting Jewish Conspiracy literature, attempting to link Israel and Diaspora Jews to the attacks on WTC.

Such conspiracies are widely disseminated AND BELIEVED, right here on DU. People don't even question the idea that a few Jewish intellectuals, plus Israel, are running the government of the mightiest nation in the world.

The fact that HOWARD DEAN can be attacked is reflective of the grave seriousness of this problem.

This has directly affected the vision, world-wide, of the situation in I/P. This very complicated and long-running conflict has attracted the attention of highly opinionated people with little real knowledge concerning the situation - and it's fanning the flames of hatred. Pinning the blame for 9/11 and the War in Iraq on Israel and Diaspora Jews may go down in history as the biggest blood libel of all time.

This is bound to impact the future of Israel and the Arab states as well as the Palestinians.

***

Secondly, we've specifically discussed antisemitism IN BRITAIN in this forum. This has come up in regard to the failed attempt to boycott Israeli universities, that was engendered in Britain, it has come up in relation to events in the past in Mandate Palestine, and it has come up in regard to Ken Galloway's race against Oona King.

And, it's been discussed in regard to "Londonistan", specifically the extremely antisemitic and anti-Israel rallies conducted there, in which Galloway appeared along with some people who called for the destruction of Eretz Israel.

***

Moreover, Great Britain is particularly important to the I/P conflict because, as America's chief ally in the Middle East, and perhaps even the lead partner - appearances to the contrary notwithstanding - it is on ISRAEL and upon Diaspora Jews that the heat has been falling, both in Britain and in the US.

As Americans, we look to Great Britain as a guiding light. We share the same language, we are unabashedly anglophilic even when we're skeptical about the evils of imperialism, and even when, due to our own particular heritage, we find ourselves in a state of cognitive dissonance at events in the past that have been damaging to our people. (I, for example, have an Irish grandmother - veteran of a VERY long-running conflict.)

So events like this in our mother country are doubly disturbing. And, of course, it was Britain who defeated the Ottoman Empire and paved the way for the creation of the modern Middle East, including the eventual birth of Eretz Israel.

I'm linking here to a recent article claiming that said attacks were on the increase. It was greeted with denial, regardless of links appended with hard facts from police files. People complained that the article and others confirming it were written by rightwingers.

So I thought this particular article, from a British paper this time, might engender further thought and discussion on this matter.

***

Thirdly, and I hate to say this, but I'm becoming afraid to post matters relating to Jews or Israel or antisemitism or even the Holocaust, on the main boards. Either they just get totally ignored, like the article on the Hungarian (and British) desecrations - or they become flamebait.

I've spent too many nights crying recently. So I feel a little safer in this forum, although it can get pretty rough in here too. At least the rules are more clear and people here tend to be a bit better educated on the topic.

I hope that makes things clear. I'm sure no implication that I'm trying to be less than honorable by posting in this forum was intended.

Link to a previous discussion on this topic:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=124&topic_id=93008&mesg_id=93008

[Violet_Crumble]

7. How on earth does that particular article impact on the I/P conflict?

The only way to believe that is to hold a belief that every anti-semitic incident anywhere impacts on the I/P conflict and that anti-Semitism is the dominant factor in the I/P conflict. That's both incorrect and in many cases deliberately trying to simplify the factors in what is a complex conflict...

Discussing anti-semitism in the context of the conflict (eg the effect of the Holocaust on the Israeli psyche, and the original founding of Israel) makes sense in a forum like this, because they are related to the conflict. But starting new threads on anti-semitic incidents in other countries where there is no connection to the I/P conflict, can in my opinion have the effect of making it easy for those who prefer to dwell on negatives to play the 'My lot are the real victims!!' game, and that gets boring for onlookers very quickly...

And if the I/P forum has now become a home for new threads because there's a fear that they may sink quickly if posted in LBN or GD, then I may as well do away with worrying whether anything's related to the I/P conflict before posting it here. This article had nothing to do with the I/P conflict, nor Israel, nor the Palestinians, and attempts to paint it as so just don't come across as particularly logical or rational...

Violet....

[Behind the Aegis]

9. Opinions

Whereas you may feel it has nothing to with I/P, and perhaps, it doesn't, the fact remains that any discussion of Jewish issues (outside of the Jewish forum) or Israel, end up becoming an I/P issue. However, even the mention of anti-Semitism can sometimes doom a thread to this forum, only to be locked, unless there is an article. Such is the case here...Anti-semitic bastard at DSM meeting blaming Israel?. The word "Palestinian" wasn't even mentioned until this comment: http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=124&topic_id=93718&mesg_id=93786">Besides, why did you post this here, in this forum, take-it to Israel/Palestine forum. So you can see that some have taken to the opinion, rightly or wrongly, that if it has the words "Israel," "Jew," or "anti-Semitic," then it should be sent to this room (perhaps they don't know a Jewish room exists). Although some discussions do last, sometimes for a few days, in other rooms, more often than not, they will end up here. Only time will tell.

[Violet_Crumble]

11. I didn't notice that happen to the one posted in LBN about Hungary...

Hi there BTA! Haven't seen you in my inbox for a while now. Hope everything's going well and yr okay! :hi:

There's no 'perhaps, it doesn't' about it. The article does not relate to the I/P conflict. And as CB is aware that the Jewish group exists, I'm not sure why you mentioned that as a possibility for mistakenly posting the article here...

Violet...

[Englander]

17. It doesn't.

This article,as it does not mention 'Israel',or
'Palestine',even once,has nothing to do with I/P.

It is as relevant as this article,say;


'San Bernadino Sun

Article Published: Friday, June 03, 2005 - 9:51:25 PM PST

Fire destroys mosque

Hatred not ruled out

By Kelly Rush, Staff Writer

ADELANTO - An early Friday morning blaze that destroyed a mosque in a cemetery has prompted the FBI to investigate whether the fire was started by someone motivated by hate.

Laura Bosley, an FBI spokeswoman, said the agency has not determined whether the fire that leveled the mosque at the United Islamic Youth Organization and Cemetery is a hate crime.

She said an investigation into the blaze, which caused $225,000 in damage, is ongoing.'

Contd at;
http://www.sbsun.com/Stories/0,1413,208~12588~2903506,00.html

[Colorado Blue]

22. OK. One more time. Please, let's try to stop being blind

to what is going on globally.

Antisemitic attacks ARE linked to Israel, especially since Israel has been blamed for being a reason for the war in Iraq, and "Jewish cabals", acting on behalf of Israel, are blamed for "undue influence" in England and in America.

Why is this so difficult to see?

Just because a situation doesn't occur WITHIN Israel, doesn't mean it isn't linked or related.

And, police statistics show that most of these attacks have been perpetrated by Muslims. That links them directly to the I/P situation, whether directly or because Israel and Diaspora Jews are being blamed for Iraq, for being "crusaders", and so on.

Otherwise they just do not make sense.

And, I really am shocked that people can't connect the dots between Jews in Diaspora and the Jewish state. It's really pretty elementary. Denial on this score isn't helping fix this situation. It's really just a way to avoid dealing with the inconvenient fact that Jews and attacks on Jews are connected to Israel, which is the Jewish state.

Avoidance of this basic fact allows people to discuss the destruction of Eretz Israel, implement actions that will hurt her people, causing more violence and pain to Israel, to Diaspora Jews AND to Arabs, without feeling guilty. It allows people to relentlessly attack the Jewish state, without feeling guilty about attacking Jews.

And that sucks.

At least, accept reality. Then, if you want to attack, attack. But realize that Israel and the Jewish people cannot be separated.

[Colorado Blue]

23. Violence and bigotry against Muslims are greatly increasing

also. But, they appear to be perpetrated primarily by white guys, not by Jews.

And, they too are most certainly linked to the situation in the Middle East as a whole, to terrorism, as well as simply bigotry against Asians or people who are simply different.

Insofar as terrorism can be linked to Israel, which is often given as the excuse for 9/11 and other acts of terror around the world, even in Iraq, the attacks on Muslims are absolutely linked to the Mideast violence as well, albeit a bit less directly.

It's all one piece. One MUST learn to see the whole, to see relationships between events.

[Colorado Blue]

24. When you have a moment, take a look at the thread about

Howard Dean.

This is a personal note, asking for help, and also an explanation as to why bigotry against Jews is permeating all discussion about Israel, and vice versa.

We seriously have a problem. By "we" I mean people who stand against bigotry and stupidity - and of course, Jews.

These conspiracy theories are unbelievably bad. It's as though we've stepped backwards into the darkness before WWII.

How can we deal in a rational manner with our problems, if we're fighting this at the same time?

Even though we don't always see eye to eye, I think we both respect essential human rights. This stuff is scaring me, and when I see swastikas and burned out mosques and toppled gravestones, my heart sinks.

It's all being fed by ignorance and hate. Where will it end?

[Colorado Blue]

8. Why this impacts I/P and vice-versa

I believe we made ourselves clear in our above posts, why the article and the events they reflect, are related to I/P. But, here's some more information, in another article on the topic, from Ha'aretz/AP


LONDON - Vandals desecrated 86 gravestones in a Jewish cemetery and sprayed some of them with swastikas, police said Thursday. The doors to a mausoleum building in east London's West Ham Jewish Cemetery were also forced open and the structure was sprayed with swastikas, London police said. "This was a despicable racist attack," said Steve Lane, a police detective.

Two of the damaged graves belonged to children aged 13 and 4 and had stood undisturbed since the 1870s, said Melvyn Hartog, head of burials for the United Synagogue, which maintains the cemetery and 10 others in the London area.

snip

Earlier this month, staff at a Jewish cemetery in Manchester, northern England, discovered that at least 96 graves had been toppled or smashed. Some of the stones, which are up to 70 years old, may have marked the graves of Holocaust survivors who came to Britain after the war, Jewish community leaders said. The latest attack is the third desecration of a Jewish cemetery in Britain this year. The first involved the painting of Nazi swastikas and SS signs on 12 gravestones in a cemetery in Hampshire.

Earlier this week, Europe's top human rights watchdog expressed concern at the "considerable and steady rise of anti-Semitic incidents" in Britain.

snip

THE KEY STATEMENT:

"While these incidents usually mirror tensions in the Middle East, representatives of the Jewish communities report that there now seems to be a higher level of background violence against these communities," said the European Commission against Racism and Intolerance, the Council of Europe's body on combating racism.

There were 532 anti-Semitic incidents in Britain last year, the highest figure in 20 years, said Michael Whine, a spokesman for the Community Security Trust, a Jewish group that works against anti-Semitism. The incidents included life-threatening assaults, criminal damage to property, hate mail and abusive behavior.

snip

The interrelationship between tensions in the Middle East and antisemitic incidents is unmistakeable. They are clearly related. The increase is apparently related, as I stated above, to the War in Iraq - which has been blamed on Jews acting on behalf of Israel, or on the idea that Israel is running the US, or both. These are clearly antisemitic constructs, based on the old Jewish Conspiracy Theory canards, for one.

This (blame for the war) was a factor in Galloway's campaign against Oona King, which took on racial overtones. Most of these attacks ARE committed by Muslims, according to police reports. However, my fear is that resurgent Nazi groups are also involved. Some writers believe that the two are actually linking up.

And anybody who doesn't think antisemitism has been and IS a driving factor in the M.E. conflict is missing something.

As noted in my previous post, antisemitism is affecting the situation in Israel. Actions against Israel are not merely based on love for the Palestinians. Many are based in hatred against Jews, on belief in the idea that Israel is running Washington, or that a Jewish cabal drove Tony Blair to war in Iraq.

This is bound to affect the future in the M.E. as well as the prospects of Diaspora Jews. A resurgence of antisemitic sentiment may well affect the abilities of democratic states in the West to support Eretz Israel. Should a resurgence of traditional Christian antisemitism, aggravated by conspiracy theories blaming the War in Iraq on Israel (or PNAC, or "neocons" - code for "Jews") start costing people votes, Israel may well find herself broke, starving and under military attack.

This is potentially a devastating scenario for the Jewish community. And it isn't related to any real love for Arabs.

Meanwhile, the Islamic community worldwide has developed a whole new kind of antisemitism, largely based on the situation in I/P. This is combining with the old, traditional kinds and is being fed by the 'net. The internet is being used with great effect to feed innuendo and outright lies about Israel and about Jews, into cyberspace. And they're finding an audience. We've seen some doozies posted on I/P just over the past few days.

The rising flood of antisemitism in countries where there AREN'T any Jews, such as Malaysia, reflects this. That was the thesis of the paper, "The New Antisemitism" and I subscribe to that writer's thesis.

I believe that people aren't giving enough attention to this very important element in the history and affairs of the world - ESPECIALLY of course, as it relates to Jews. One can't see I/P as merely a territorial dispute or portray opinions about Jews and/or Israel merely as event-based, when the very reason for Israel's existence is the fact that Diaspora Jews came home, and when Israel's existence is being used as an excuse to beat up on Jews remaining in Diaspora. It's a double-edged sword and it's becoming increasingly dangerous to be Jewish - in or out of Israel.

Today, we are seeing a blend, a combination of Christian or European antisemitism with the Islamic version, added to the very real day-to-day problems confronted by Jews and Arabs in the Middle East.

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/588738.html

[Violet_Crumble]

10. No, 'we' haven't made it clear at all...

And posting even more incidents of anti-semitism is not achieving anything in the way of explaining why that incident relates to the I/P conflict and this forum should be the home of every incident of anti-semitism around the world...

Maybe it'd be easier to follow if you actually hit reply to my posts and replied to what I said in them instead of replying to yr own posts? It could all get a bit confusing and it does look sort of bizarre...

Violet...

[Colorado Blue]

12. We're speaking?:) So, if we're speaking we'll speak:)

Again, I believe the other poster, Mr. Ken Burch, explained it admirably. And I, of course, am a brilliant writer and explained it, if not better, then certainly at VASTLY greater length:)

I'm sorry this forum has wound up being the home of every discussion about Jews or about Israel. That isn't my fault, it isn't the fault of the Jewish people who post here, and it isn't the fault of people who do understand and support Israel.

Nor is it the fault of people who understand the nature of imperialism, or of the global economy's absolute dependence upon oil, that every discussion about Iraq winds up being a condemnation of Israel and of American Jews.

I suggest, if you and other good people are concerned about this, they shouldn't look at us or at the mods, who are trying to keep DU from turning in to a hate site, but rather at the fact that bigotry against Jews is resurgent to an extraordinary and vicious degree. We need your help to fight this.

I know we don't see 100% eye to eye on I/P, certainly not in regard to the phenomenon of antisemitism and the role it's played in the history of the conflict - whether coming from Europe or generated from traditional Arab or Islamic ideas about Jews. My point of view is perhaps tempered by the fact that I'm Jewish and therefore have a visceral understanding of antisemitism and of the horror it has wreaked. Even somebody as smart as bemildred doesn't really see the Holocaust the same way as a Jewish person, let alone I/P.

But in this forum, at least we can communicate in relative peace.

As an educated person of good will, if you are reading on LBN or GD and see some of this crap, blaming us for all the woes of the world, we could use your help in correcting some of these misperceptions.

The fact is, many of the people who are posting such things have NO idea what Israel is, who Jews are. They don't understand the many facets of the conflict in I/P, and certainly not of the very dangerous nature of the game they're playing into.

Indeed, they don't even understand why suggesting that The Jews Are Running Washington is antisemitic, or why Holocaust revisionism is so wrong. Our whole culture is so casually antisemitic to begin with, people don't even see it. The Magistrate says, that's normal. It's been normal for almost 2,000 years - after all, The Jews Killed Christ. And then - THEY REJECTED HIM. The latter day view of Jews as conspirators, plotting to control the world, dual agents - that's just in addition to the usual Christian stuff.

The Magistrate says, it's the ABNORMAL stuff you have to worry about.

Well, I think we're starting to see the abnormal stuff. And it's going to blow up in our faces.

And I don't have the vaguest idea what to do about it. Do you?

[Violet_Crumble]

13. Consider it a lesser of two evils decision...

And the greater evil had to be vanished from my screen :)

I think Ken Burch failed totally in giving any coherent explanation. His stance appeared to be that anti-semitism happening anywhere is a dominant factor in the I/P conflict, and I took his second line to mean that supporters of the Palestinian cause must always speak out about anti-semitism before any time daring to speak on the conflict...

Here's the problem - I understand why articles about Israel not specifically related to the I/P conflict appear in this forum. It's the same as articles about Palestine also appear. I also understand why articles about bigotry towards Israelis or Palestinians from either group also belong in this forum because they're related to the conflict. But incidents of anti-semitism from places around the globe like the one you posted were don't relate to the I/P conflict unless you agree that the terms Israel and Jew are interchangable, which they're most definately not...

If the Israel/Palestine forum is to become a home to every incident of anti-semitism around the globe, and probably every incident of anti-Arab bigotry, then I'd be pushing for a name-change for the forum to reflect more accurately the purpose of the forum. My first suggestion would be 'Jews Are The Biggest Victims!! - No! The Palestinians Are!! forum...

I don't know how many times it needs to be repeated that the I/P conflict is not predominantly about anti-Semitism, which is why placing an article here that really needs a wider exposure in a more frequented forum is not a wise move. I could be wrong, but there's a chance posting it down here could be seen as being a bit accusatory, in that if someone supports the Palestinian cause, then they in some way are to blame for this sort of thing continuing and hence must loudly denounce each and every individual bit of anti-semitism that happens anywhere...


Violet...

[Colorado Blue]

14. OK - I am going to respectfully continue to disagree. I think

antisemitism is absolutely a part of the I/P conflict. It was FORMATIVE and it's helping to perpetrate it and it it's feeding off it.

These attacks in Europe are related to Israel, to her very existence, and to a perception that Jews/Israel are responsible for the war.

And let's face it: Israel is the Jewish state. We really can't be separated from it.

Having said that, as we've asserted in the past: critiques of Israeli policy aren't antisemitic. But demonization of Israel does amount to antisemitism.

That was the purpose of the "Stage Four" article - to define these issues, and to reaffirm the rights of Jews to live in Eretz Israel, not to undermine that State by referring to it as racist, not to conflate it with Nazis, which is so absurd it should never have come up, and of course to clarify the fact that Diaspora Jews shouldn't be held accountable for what happens in I/P.

And finally, I didn't post it here to accuse the proPalestinians of being antisemitic. I don't see support for the Palestinian people as antisemitic at all! Advocating the destruction of Israel, that is antisemitic - and, it implies that people cannot live together.

I will NOT accept that. It would be the defeat of everything I believe in. But for everybody who really believes that we can weave a new tapestry, there are one hundred who would prefer to blow it up.

Having said that, I think some of the recent articles posted in this forum have crossed the line. And that concerns me. They've served merely to spread vicious rumors and increase hatred, they've inflicted pain far beyond the visible barriers of these pages. And that can't be right, and it certainly isn't progressive.

So listen, I've got to rest now. Take care.

[Violet_Crumble]

15. I think you and I are talking past each other somehow...

I've never said that anti-semitism isn't part of the history of the I/P conflict. What I've said is that it's not a dominant factor in the conflict, as in every act of anti-semitism anywhere else in the world relates directly to the conflict. When it comes to historically, anyone who knows a bit about Herzl and the way the Dreyfuss Affair and its antisemitism influenced him to create political Zionism, knows that anti-semitism had a role in the history. And that's not even mentioning the Holocaust, which is the most obvious example of where anti-semitism is part of the history. But when it comes to the actual conflict and the occupation, it's predominantly a territorial conflict over all else. It's not like the Palestinians would have reacted any differently if the US was occupying them...

No, I'm sorry, but I don't think it's right to be making out that the terms Israel and Jew are one and the same thing. While Israel is the Jewish state, to claim that every act of antisemitism around the world directly relates to Israel is weird considering those who attempt to claim that the actions of the Israeli govt is the actions of Jews are shouted down for daring to equate the Israeli govt with all Jews...

I'm no mindreader and don't know *why* you posted it here, but I was just telling you how it could be perceived, which is different than saying you posted it for a particular reason...

For every person who thinks articles critical of Israel in this forum cross the line, there's another person who thinks articles critical of the Palestinians cross the line, wouldn't you agree? Personally, I tend not to give much of a toss about the opinion of anyone but the mods on this sort of thing. They're the ones who decide when things are crossing the line, and in general I think they do a good job of making that decision...

Off on a slight tangental question here, but when you talk about those who advocate the destruction of Israel, are you including those who advocate one binational state as a solution where all citizens are equal and have the same protections? If you are, I'd argue that those people aren't at all anti-semitic, because if I could overlook my pragmatism and we were living in an ideal world, the one binational state would be the solution I'd support over anything else...

G'night. Sleep well....

Violet...

[Colorado Blue]

19. Talking past each other:) Part I.

Yes, I had the same thought last night, and it reminded me of the article entitled "Dialogue of the Deaf" which I posted in this forum.

So, we agree on the obvious facts: that antisemitism drove the Zionist enterprise, the Holocaust reinforced it.

That's important, actually, because there's a disconnect in perception among many, who don't understand that and don't know the history of Israel's foundation or her purpose.

The term "Zionism" has been associated with evil, conspiratorial, world-dominating, war-starting, Bolshevik, Capitalist, imperialist, neo-cons, ad infinitum, when in fact it represents the simple desire for a homeland, and an escape from persecution. So it's important to reinforce the REAL meaning of the word, and also to accept that these other interpretations are clearly antisemitic.

As for the I/P situation itself, I agree that other factors BESIDES antisemitism have and are playing a role. But I disagree that it isn't an important factor.

Had the Jewish people settled somewhere neutral, in Greenland for example, then you could say it was and is, just a territorial dispute.

But in fact, Islam and the local populations have a history with Jews and with Judaism.

It was a different SORT of prejudice than you found in Europe, but it was bigotry nevertheless. It is explicit in Islamic texts and in the conditions imposed by "dhimmitude". Jews are not seen as equals and the absolute lack of ability, even today, for even well-educated Arabs and Muslims to empathize even a little with Jews, to accept that we are indeed a people, and not just a religion, is a key factor in the struggle. Jews and Israelis are not seen as people or as A people. Massad, among other intellectuals, is very clear on this point. Jews in this worldview have no distinct culture, no heritage AND they are inferior.

In modern times, the most grievous attacks on our peoplehood have taken the form of holocaust denial, the attempts to transform Judaic history and religion into "Abrahmic" history and religion - portraying Abraham as a Muslim and therefore cutting our religious and historical legs out from under us, and therefore negating the legitimacy of the Jewish presence in the Middle East. If that isn't antisemitic I don't know what is. It isn't European antisemitism but it's just as bigoted - maybe worse. The Christians at least accept our role in the development of Christianity and they at least accept the reality and impact of the Holocaust.

These philosophies have become part of the struggle in I/P. They are helping to drive the violence, and the philosophy of complete rejectionism.

Beyond that, the actual history of Jews and other minorities in the region is not salutory. Jewish tribes were murdered and dispossessed in Arabia and driven out of that peninsula, off of sacred soil. At least Christians and Jews were allowed to continue living in dhimmitude, but many Christians in particular regard the spread of Islam as a slow-motion genocide. Tolerance isn't a key virtue in the Middle East, regardless of what is advertised. Many religious and ethnic groups simply disappeared, were forceably converted, or killed. This process is ongoing, in Africa. And even minority Muslim sects are fair game for persecution. Look at Iraq! Sectarian violence, ethnically driven violence, is rampant and has been, for ages.

And, at the same time the Zionists began arriving in the Middle East, two horrific genocides occurred: the murders of one million Armenians and 700,000 Assyrians - both Christian groups. At the same time, minority groups all over the region did connect well with the British and the French and they started to do better economically. This aggravated matters, increasing a sense of Arab/Muslim insecurity, perhaps? I'll append a paper on this topic later.

In Mandate Palestine, where Arab populations and economic well-being INCREASED along with the arrival of the Jewish immigrants, this had the effect of increasing hatred rather than reducing it. That's not rational.

So I submit, religious and ethnic bigotry are significant features both in the early days of the conflict, and today.

The arrival of the Jewish settlers coincided with the openning of the region to great change, to modernity, and also the publication of antisemitic literature such as the "Protocols." On top of the culture shock to the local people, of being exposed to a new world and new authority figures, you have the arrival of people who've long been considered contemptuous, who didn't behave like proper dhimmi Jews, whose women wore SHORTS, AND you have the entrance into the region of European antisemitism.

***

Juan Cole states that the "Protocols" weren't widely disseminated beyond a few radical sects in the M.E. until the past few decades.

That is disputed by other sources, but even if he is correct, those radical sects were extremely powerful. They were motivating factors both for Arab nationalism and against minorities including Jews. And, you have the British, many of whom, at the time, blamed the Jews for the Bolshevik revolution, and who grew up in an antisemitic culture at a time when antisemitism was particularly terrible.

The degree to which the British may have played a role in the riots and other factors that damaged the Jewish situation in the middle east is a matter for another discussion - but the appointment of al Husseini as Mufti, over the objections of the local Arab leadership, was plenty. Both moderate Arabs, and Jews, were targets of those riots, in which he is directly implicated. And of course in the 30's and during the war, when al Husseini went to Berlin and worked via radio broadcasts to extend Nazi propoganda and Jew-hatred to the Middle East, the influence of European bigotry grew and grew.

Territorial disputes can be solved by rational means. This dispute has had many irrational aspects. Rationality would suggest a partnership, the acceptance of the new, even the embrace of opportunity for growth and interaction with new people.

That's not what we are seeing here. The most radical jihadists are now involved; al Qaeda has just announced that the cease-fire should end. This struggle has taken on the elements of a religious crusade and the language is specifically religious, referring specifically to "crusaders", to Christians and to Jews. It has quite openly and directly, taken on the elements of holy war. That is no rational territorial dispute.

I'm appending a few articles for the benefit of people who want to read a bit more.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arab_antisemitism

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jew

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israel

[Colorado Blue]

20. Part II: Real problems vs. racist smear tactics

Vis a vis articles critical of Israel, articles critical of Palestinians:

First, I think we need to distingish about the kinds of articles and/or comments we're talking about. Articles that write of real problems, for example about the difficulties of ordinary Palestinian people to drive around and go to school, due to roadblocks and so forth, or about real violence, aren't antisemitic. Those are reflective of actual facts, and if indeed they are critical of Israeli foreign policy that is fair game.

Similarly, articles about Palestinian/Arab violence are also fair game. Those are not racist, or critical of the people as a whole. And, I do not think that the radical jihadists are representative of the Palestinian people. I don't think Arafat represented them well at all. I don't think anybody who advocates continuous and endless violence, or the destruction of other people, or the ruination of a successful democracy, or can't see the rights of others, is representative of the Palestinian people. Therefore, to the degree that some of us have verbal fun at the expense of people who have vowed to murder us all, I don't think that's racist and shouldn't be taken as such.

IF comments are made about the Palestinian people, or Arabs, that are derogatory, stereotypical and scapegoating - THAT IS BIGOTRY and it is dead wrong.

Similarly, comments or articles that distort or selectively quote other articles, such as the piece recently posted entitled "The Israelis Want to Draft Your Children", linking to far-right wing sources that are clearly antisemitic, that isn't criticism of Israeli policy. That is sheer bigotry. And to the degree that it's playing into age-old stereotypes about Jews, it's reprehensible.

Does this make sense?

[Colorado Blue]

21. Part III: One state vs Jewish state

OK, let's try and wrap up here:)

First, I'll deal briefly with the question of Why I Post In A Certain Forum: People, if this is YOU, don't project and don't assume, and don't be paranoid. And, I can't worry about how things "look", I have enough problems:)

Secondly, as you say, ALL incidents of global antisemitism don't have to do with Israel. Some are just plain old jew-hatred. I include these bogus conspiracy theories. They bad news, they're dangerous and they're disgusting. I find it amazing that people can say Bushco are Nazis on the one hand, and accuse them of being controlled by Jews on the on the other.

To the extent that some of these people overlap with those who are anti-Israel, I'd say that there's a profound degree of antisemitism involved. In other instances, I think it's just ignorance and lack of understanding. And, being anti-Israel and being pro-Palestinian aren't the same thing. The one is positive, seeking to help the Palestinian people and progressive, the other is negative and probably racist and it is profoundly reactionary - especially when violence is threatened or encouraged.

Your questions about one-state vs. Jewish state overlap with the other questions of Jewish identity with the Jewish state, and therefore to the topic of antisemitism in European or other communities, and how they affect the I/P debate.

In the best of all possible worlds, a one-state solution might well be the most desirable. In a true democracy, free of bigotry and a violent past, Jews would not have to fear. And to the degree that people who advocate such a solution are idealistic, I agree, in any traditional sense, they're hardly antisemitic.

I think they're NUTS:)

The fact is, we don't live in that world. And Jews DO have a right to national self-determination, just like any other people.

The closest analogy I can give is that of the Greeks. They are an ancient people, bound together by heritage and culture, who are also bound by religion - today, the Greek Orthodox church. Modern Greeks are nearly all of this religion, although they have minorities of Jews and a few Muslims, and some citizens who aren't ethnically Greek. The recent wars in the Balkans caused concern, due to the possibility of foreign refugees, including Muslims.

Also, the Greeks and the Turks underwent a similar population exchange, in the '20's. Greece invaded Turkey (at the instigation of the British Empire) in an ill-considered attempt to re-create a Christian nation there. The Turks quite naturally were annoyed by this and chased the Greeks away, burning their cities and evicting all Greek-speaking citizens. Greece evicted the Muslim Turks.

These ethnic and religious fault lines continue to be a factor on Cypress, where Western powers fomented trouble there, and great violence. And, much of the greatest Greek music refers back to the revolution against the Turks in the 19th century. So there's still a sore point there, and bigotry against other cultures in general including Turks and Jews, though hardly to the point of existential rage like we see in I/P. Yet, Greece retains, in her music and dances, much of the heritage of Asia Minor.

So, there are many similarities to the I/P situation. The main difference is obvious: Greece did not suffer a forced expulsion of the majority of her citizens in ancient days, though they too were conquered and annexed to imperial entities, and the nation wasn't really unified until very recently. But many Greeks do live in Diaspora, they've always sought the sea and fortune in other lands; and they do consider themselves very much part of their homeland, regardless of where they live. My city is actually the largest Greek city in world, outside of Athens.

But, I don't hear anybody saying Greeks are not a people, or that they don't have a culture, or a valid and vital heritage, and I don't hear anybody saying they should be forced to accept Muslim hegemony.

[Violet_Crumble]

16. Just popping in again with a slightly tangental question...

My point of view is perhaps tempered by the fact that I'm Jewish and therefore have a visceral understanding of antisemitism and of the horror it has wreaked. Even somebody as smart as bemildred doesn't really see the Holocaust the same way as a Jewish person, let alone I/P.

Having recently done a course on WWII and the Holocaust, what I think is that it doesn't require being Jewish to see the Holocaust in the same way as a Jew would. It makes it easier of course, but I think it takes empathy and forcing yrself to read disturbing and dark things that part of you wants to put down and not have to look at again to get that understanding of the Holocaust and its impact. Have you read Walter Laqueur's The Terrible Secret: An Investigation into the Suppression of Information about Hitler's 'Final Solution'? I've always understood what drives the existential fears of Israel, even if I don't agree with the actions driven by those fears, but it took reading something in the conclusion of The Terrible Secret to have me truly understand a few things...

"Thus the news about the murder of many millions of Jews was not accepted for a long time and even when it had been accepted the full implications were not understood. Among Jews this frequently caused a trauma in later years which in extreme cases led to the belief that every danger facing Jews, individually or as a group, had to be interpreted in terms of a new holocaust*. Such a distortion of reality is psychologically understandable, which does not make it any less dangerous as a potentially disastrous political guideline."

It's a great book, and anyone interested in these matters would be doing themselves a huge favour in reading it...

Violet...

* As I've got a friend on a board which shall remain nameless when I post at DU who detests anyone using lowercase when referring to the Holocaust, it was Laqueur who used lowercase in the book, not me...

[Colorado Blue]

18. I haven't read the book, thanks for the reference.

As to whether Jews maybe think every attack is a precursor to an existential threat, I think the Holocaust certainly reinforces that mentality.

People say, well you're just overreacting when the Arabs say they're going to destroy Israel and push all the Jews into the sea. So, how are we supposed to know when it's a bluff or not?

Are we hearing an existential threat or just florid Middle Eastern rhetoric? Such hyperbole is a form of speech there, it's almost biblical. On the other hand, you have the actual physical fact of terrorism and war.

The fact is, the Jewish community, the Jewish civilization, has faced an existential threat for 2,000 years. The pressure of living in scattered pockets after the expulsion and Diaspora, repeated genocidal persecutions*, brutal attempts at forced conversions, denial of personhood, or "people-hood" in the larger sense; the Holocaust and continued war and terror in the Middle East, have reduced our numbers to a mere handful in global terms.

So, without a doubt there is a tendency to regard each threat as the opening gambit in a fatal game. But since the game has indeed proved fatal in the past, how are we to judge that opening move?



*A recent article in Ha'aretz estimated that, without persecutions, the Jewish population, worldwide, would now number some 125 million as opposed to 13 million. The long, slow motion genocide has been largely successful.