Most of those who talk of the 'right to exist' are talking of the right of the state to exist. If they accompany it with bloodcurdling rhetoric promising to maim and slaughter the population, then they're talking about the 'right to exist' of individuals and not the state. Those who deny Israel's 'right to exist' are talking about exactly the same thing as those Israeli's who refuse to recognise the existance of the Palestinian people, let alone their right to self-determination. If they accompany that comment with calls of genocide and ethnic cleansing of the Palestinian population, then they're talking exactly the same language as those who call for the same for the Israelis. They exist in both populations, bta. Some have been members of the Knesset...
I don’t think most Israelis, even those in the Knesset, are saying the same thing as some of the Palestinians (and non-player Arabs), when they say, “right to exist.” The Israelis who are saying it are meaning “no Palestine.” Whereas, a few high profile Arabs who say it mean, “no Jews” because most attach the “bloodcurdling rhetoric promising to maim and slaughter the population.” I have yet to hear
any Israeli official saying they wanted the Palestinians destroyed. And, it is interesting that you keep saying extremists exist in both populations, especially after I said, “
As for extremists, I am very aware that Israel is not immune.” And some extremists
are members of the PA.
Sorry, but that last comment is wrong. Would you like some links to posts that prove that comment wrong? I assume you are speaking of anyone who's not falling into the 'pro-Israeli' camp, whatever that is? Actually, on reflection, yr first comment is incorrect as well. I know of only one, maybe two people who do that, but I'm no expert on the game where people are put in the 'pro-Israel' or 'pro-Palestinian' camp, so I haven't got a handy copy of the Team Members. Suffice to say, there's some in this forum who aren't in kneejerk mode and provide varying levels of balance in their stances. That balance is not top-heavy on one 'side' and absent on the other, as you appear to be suggesting. btw, the archives aren't working, so I'll gather up those links for you later on, if you want to look at them...
Now, you have been here much longer than me and I find it hard to believe that you have not noticed there are people who fall in a “pro-Israeli” group, some fall into a “pro-Palestinian” group, and VERY few are “middle-of the road” folks (and even some of them slide a little to one side or the other). Just so we are clear (or anyone reading this is clear), I am not saying that a “pro-Israeli” person is “anti-Palestinian,” nor is a “pro-Palestinian” person “anti-Israeli,” but rather they favor one side over another. No “team rosters” exist, but I bet it would be very easy to draw one up! While some may be in knee-jerk mode, many posts are not as balanced as you would suggest, as they clearly espouse a certain view.
Sorry, but your assertion about my assertion (“
However, positive moves by Israel are met with insults.”) is wrong. Would you like some links that proves you are wrong?
Israelis quit Palestinian schools Incidentally, your own post, #6, derides the positive move by Israel, which is meeting the requirements of the withdrawal, by focusing on ‘it wasn’t fast enough, and look at the mess they left.’ Of course, there is also the “deleted post” that was less than positive; thus it being deleted.
Israel mulls overland links between Gaza, West Bank Nary a word from anyone, but an Israeli positive is met with silence.
Sharon Offers Abbas Deal on West Bank No word from the “pro-Palestinian” crowd.
Peres: Israel should give PA weapons to restore order All quiet on the “pro-Palestinian” crew…except for a self-delete, which may have been about the topic or an attack on the post prior to it.
Israel to urge PA to house refugees in settlements Can you hear the deafening silence?
Palestinians say Israel prepared to hand over Jenin Again, we are met with the sounds of silence.
Pulling for the pullout All quiet on the western front.
Israel asks Egypt for Gaza help Silence really must be golden.
Israel to build Gaza sea barrier In all fairness, some of the “pro-Palestinian” group did have conditional praise.
Holy Crap! You were right! Positive moves by Israel are not met with insults, but rather with a chilling silence! So, I stand corrected. Considering there are very few sources we can use without having our source attacked, I find it amazing that nary a positive remark exists from the “pro-Palestinian” group when Israel “does good.” Maybe it was different in the past, but the aforementioned links are all from the three most recent pages of the forum. Of course, there are a few other threads with zero posts, but most of those deal with Israel in a negative light and since there are so many of those already, I can see how a few might get passed over.
Your reflection led you to also find fault with my assertion that “
I have seen quite a few pro-Israelis on this board who compliment positive achievements by the Palestinian people. Considering there are only a handful of us, I can search the forum, but it will be more difficult because I have to look for individual comments. However, if need be, I can do the same as I did above.
Interestingly enough, this little exercise has shown me something new. When Palestinians are caught in a terrorist act, there is again silence or, worse, excuses. The recent threads about the female would-be suicide bomber are a great example.
I've found in the past that when people make claims that the UN ignores this or that country and what it's doing, a quick trip to the UN site will usually prove that claim wrong. The UN does not devote itself to Israel half as much as what some will try to claim. The UN though does have a special interest in Israel and the Occupied Territories. Do you know why that is? One theory that people are fond of peddling is that of the conspiracy of Nasty Evil Muslim States out to control the world and destroy Israel. Putting the bigoted conspiracy theories aside, the most likely and logical reason is the Mandate was passed from the British to the UN, out of which came the partition plan. One of the two states didn't come into being, so the responsibility for solving the problem is still in the hands of the UN until there is peace and two states...
While I can’t speak to claims made by others, a quick trip to the UN pages will back up what I am saying. I didn’t say or even imply that the UN “devotes” itself to Israel. What I did say is they are quick to condemn Israel for things that other countries seem to get a “free pass” or little hoopla. The two theories you present are interesting. Let’s look at the first one: “
the conspiracy of Nasty Evil Muslim States out to control the world and destroy Israel.” I have never heard the Muslims were out to rule the world. That conspiracy theory is usually reserved for the Jews. But, lets look at the second part, about “destroying Israel.” Maybe that ‘conspiracy theory’ is based on things like:
Starting in the mid-1970s, an Arab-Soviet-Third World bloc joined to form what amounted to a pro-Palestinian lobby at the United Nations. This was particularly true in the General Assembly where these countries—nearly all dictatorships or autocracies—frequently voted together to pass resolutions attacking Israel and supporting the PLO.
---OR---
In 1974, for example, the General Assembly invited Yasser Arafat to address it. Arafat did so, a holster attached to his hip. In his speech, Arafat spoke of carrying a gun and an olive branch (he left his gun outside before entering the hall). A year later, at the instigation of the Arab states and the Soviet Bloc, the Assembly approved Resolution 3379, which slandered Zionism by branding it a form of racism.
---which led to---
On December 16, 1991, the General Assembly voted 111-25 (with 13 abstentions and 17 delegations absent or not voting) to repeal Resolution 3379.
No Arab country voted for repeal. The PLO denounced the vote and the U.S. role. (I added emphasis.)
---but could it be this?---
In 1976, the committee recommended “full implementation of the inalienable rights of the Palestinian people, including their return to the Israeli part of Palestine.” It also recommended that November 29 — the day the UN voted to partition Palestine in 1947 — be declared an “International Day of Solidarity with the Palestinian People.” Since then, it has been observed at the UN with anti-Israel speeches, films and exhibits. Over the objections of the United States, a special unit on Palestine was established as part of the UN Secretariat.
---Then again, it could be this---
Israel is the object of more investigative committees, special representatives and rapporteurs than any other state in the UN system. The special representative of the Director-General of UNESCO visited Israel 51 times during 27 years of activity. A "Special Mission" has been sent by the Director-General of the ILO to Israel and the territories every year for the past 17 years.
The Commission on Human Rights routinely adopts disproportionate resolutions concerning Israel. Of all condemnations of this agency, 26 percent refer to Israel alone, while rogue states such as Syria and Libya are never criticized.
---Of course, it
could be this---
A breakthrough in Israel’s fifty-year exclusion from UN bodies occurred on May 30, 2000, when Israel accepted an invitation to become a temporary member of the Western European and Others (WEOG) regional group. While only temporary, this historic step could finally end the UN’s discrimination against Israel and open the door to Israeli participation in the Security Council.
Israel has been the only UN member excluded from a regional group. Geographically, it belongs in the Asian Group; however, the Arab states have barred its membership. Without membership in a regional group, Israel cannot sit on the Security Council or other key UN bodies. (Again, emphasis is mine.)
The WEOG is the only regional group which is not purely geographical, but rather geopolitical, namely a group of states that share a Western-Democratic common denominator. WEOG comprises 27 members: all the West European states; and the "others" — Australia, Canada, New Zealand and the United States.
Israel’s membership in the WEOG is severely limited. Every four years Israel will have to reapply for membership, since its status is only temporary. Israel was not allowed to present candidacies for open seats in any UN body for two years and is not able to compete for major UN bodies, such as the Economic and Social Council, for a longer period. Also, for the first two years, Israeli representatives were not allowed to run for positions on the UN Council.
Besides these restrictions, Israel is only allowed to participate in WEOG activities in the New York office of the UN. Israel is excluded from WEOG discussion and consultations at the UN offices in Geneva, Nairobi, Rome and Vienna; therefore, Israel cannot participate in UN talks on human rights, racism and a number of other issues handled in these offices.
---Of course, it
could this---
The UN has condemned virtually every conceivable form of racism. It has established programs to combat racism and its multiple facets — including xenophobia — but had consistently refused to do the same against anti-Semitism.
It was only on November 24, 1998, more than 50 years after the UN's founding, that the word "anti-Semitism" was first mentioned in a UN resolution, appearing near the end of GA Res. A/53/623, "Elimination of Racism and Racial Discrimination."
Since the early 1970s, the UN itself has become permeated with anti-Semitic and anti-Zionist sentiment. The following examples illustrate how ugly the atmosphere has become:
“Is it not the Jews who are exploiting the American people and trying to debase them?”— Libyan UN Representative Ali Treiki.
“The Talmud says that if a Jew does not drink every year the blood of a non-Jewish man, he will be damned for eternity.” —Saudi Arabian delegate Marouf al-Dawalibi before the 1984 UN Human Rights Commission conference on religious tolerance. A similar remark was made by the Syrian Ambassador at a 1991 meeting, who insisted Jews killed Christian children to use their blood to make matzos.
On March 11, 1997, the Palestinian representative to the UN Human Rights Commission claimed the Israeli government had injected 300 Palestinian children with the HIV virus. Despite the efforts of Israel, the United States and others, this blood libel remains on the UN record.
Of course this all comes from the “tainted source” of
The Jewish Virtual Library. Although, a quick trip to the UN pages will easily verify most of what was said or places like
The New York Times and other “unwholesome” sites. Also important to note, these clips are not from an article, but a compendium, so it shouldn’t fall under the “4 paragraph” rule. However, if it does, I will gladly alter it to meet DU standards.
Let’s tackle your second theory that states: “
the Mandate was passed from the British to the UN, out of which came the partition plan. It appears that the UN is either horribly weak (since two states have yet to be produced) or they are biased. Either way, they are fairly useless in this “peace process,” except for passing anti-Israeli resolutions.
No, it is relevant whether they want the territory or not. From what I understand of it, they ceded their claims to the territory, hence it would be illegal for Israel to hand out bits of territory it now occupies to those who occupied it in the past but have since ceded their claims. That ends it for those countries. Israel refused to recognise the claims of the other countries over that territory back then, anyway, so how could it hand something back to a state it insisted didn't have any claim over the territory? Yr analogy doesn't work because neither previous occupying state was the 'owner'. I'd say most folk would look at things and say that the Palestinian people are the 'owners'...
You are correct that it is “
relevant whether they want the territory or not because it means something all together different. And, it would be “
illegal for Israel to hand out bits of territory it now occupies to those who occupied it in the past but have since ceded their claims because if they did cede their land, it means they did so to Israel, which means they (Israel) own the land. According to the following map, it does show that Gaza belonged to Egypt and the West Bank to Jordan.
Yes, it was from 1949, but this map shows the pre-1967 borders…
Of course, you can see that Gaza was under Egyptian control and the West Bank was under Jordan. So, you can see that the land was taken from two countries that now have peace treaties with Israel, meeting the UN Resolution requiring the land be returned in exchange for a peace accord. My analogy, however simplistic, is still accurate because it parallels the situation.
The concept isn't difficult to understand - the concept is completely and utterly incorrect. Can I take it that while you support Israel ending the Occupation, it would only be if the West Bank were 'returned' to Jordan and Gaza 'returned' to Egypt? Otherwise, I'm not understanding what the big deal is about it. It's an impossibility that won't happen due to the matter of claims over the territory being withdrawn, and the fact that the representative of the people living in those territories has for a long time been the PLO/PA. And it's the Palestinian people who the territory should and hopefully will be returned to. And that's a concept that isn't difficult to understand, and to top it off, is ultimately fair and respectful of the rights of the people living in that territory...
The concept really isn’t hard to understand, it just seems don’t want to see it. I support the withdrawal from the territories, whether turned over to the original owners or by what is happening now. However, the fact still remains that even after the establishment of the state of Israel, neither Egypt nor Jordan created a Palestinian state, but instead waged years of wars, eventually ending in them losing land. Now, they no longer bear the burden of creating a Palestinian state, the nation of Israel does and without the support of many people!
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