Should the USA be a loyal supporter of Israel?

[Toots]

It seems to be the wish of the "Terrorists" that the US withdraw troops from mideast and stop backing Israel. I believe we could withdraw US troops with no difficulty but to not back up a friend if the need came up would not be right. I don't believe we should be over there fighting Israel's battles but if Israel ever were to be truly attacked by another country we should aid them. That is my belief but I suspect it is not the belief of some here. I believe with proper incentives they all could get along over there. We are offering NO incentives for getting along and every incentive for fighting us. It is all about War Profiteering at the moment and that has to stop.

[donco6]

1. Run away! Run away!

:popcorn:

But seriously, I believe we should analyze the true cost of ALL of our alliances.

[baldguy]

2. Yes, just as we support any sovereign nation fighting to survive.

And we should condemn Israel, just as we would any government that doesn't support human rights.

[ananda]

3. hmm

It's important for every country or culture to be supported and respected, not just Israel's.

The USA does not have to have a military or economic presence in the ME in order to do that.

Sue

[napi21]

4. I have no problem helping a "friend" but NOT in EVERYTHING!

I think we should have the courage to tell Israel they are wrong when we think they are, the same as you should do with any good friend. It seems to me Shrub has backed Sharone no matter what, and many times Sharone is just stubborn and wrong!

[justinsb]

5. I believe that Israel should have no special status

They should not be viewed any differently than any other country and should be judged by their actions and policies.

[GeekMonkey]

6. when we support isreali terrorists, we are no better than the

terrorists that attack them

[still_one]

11. a terrorist delibertly targets civilians

all terrorists attacks should be condemned, but all attacks by Israel are not terrorists

[Sannum]

7. ahem...

:popcorn:

[JHBowden]

8. In short, yes.

We should also use our leverage when Israel wants to go over-the-top on certain things. But overall, Israel is a friend in a region where we have few friends.

[manic expression]

20. The reason we have so few friends

is largely due to Israel. I would also remind you that our other distinguished "friends" of the region include the Saudi Royal family, the tyrant of Egypt and the Monarchy of Kuwait. None deserve our support, and Israel is no exception.

Israel has also been going more-than-over-the-top with everything since al-Nakba.

[still_one]

9. I support Israel

and believe it has a right to exist

I also believe that unless the Palestinian issue is solved there will always be problems

The worst thing that happened to the U.S. and Israel was that bush won the election, which was guided by PNAC philosophy

Like it or NOT, the radical elements both here and abroad do NOT want to see a Palestinian state

Instead of taking over in the peace process where Clinton left off, bush not only ignored it, but made it worse

Remember it was an extreme right winger who killed Rabin

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

10. Not until they give up apartheid and nukes.

[still_one]

12. why should ANY country give up its NUKES unless

we give up our NUKES?

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

15. Because they serve no purpose other than to kill millions.

ALL countries should give up their nukes.

[still_one]

16. then you and I are in agreement

[stray cat]

21. I agree and terrorists should not try to aquire them.

However, do you really think that is going to ever happen. I want world peace but I don't think being weaponless will accomplish that either.

[Toots]

29. How is the US or Israel keeping Nukes protecting anyone from terrorism?

Even if terrorists did somehow get their hands on a nuke and explode it on Washington DC would the US respond with a Nuke and who would they nuke? Nukes are only good for intimidating countries not individuals.

[Coastie for Truth]

36. I agree with the modifier "ALL"

and would extend it to chemical, biological, and radiological weapons -- and to land mines.

[stray cat]

14. SInce the entire Arab world wants to destroy them...

I think they have the right to defend themselves. Its hard to be at peace with someone who wants to destroy you at all costs from day one.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

19. So, their answer is to threaten to kill millions of people?

And, perhaps, involve the whole world in a nuclear holocaust?

[manic expression]

22. The entire Arab world hates them

because of their horrible actions against Arabs. It's really a no-brainier. Read up on how they cleansed their lands of Palestinians and look at how they continue to do so, there is no wonder that they are hated. That is like a settler in the American west in 1880's saying that since the Native Americans hate him so much, the US has a right to "defend him" and crush the Native people.

[eyl]

32. I've seen several Arabs around today

Who do I complain to that the "cleansing" wasn't done right?

[DoYouEverWonder]

25. I had thought

that most governments in the ME had actually gotten past that point and that a least of few of them have negotiated agreements and recognize Israel's right to exist?

Of course there are people on both sides who will hate each other forever, but in the meantime the rest of us need to figure out more peaceful ways of living together.

Also, responding to violence with more violence will only lead to more violence. Someday someone has to give in and say enough is enough, no more.

[Egalitariat]

13. Israel would not need our help in a fight. They'd annihilate their...

opponents even if the entire Middle East ganged up on them.

In fact, I'd bet Israel would love to have the opportunity.

We're protecting Israel from itself as much as we are from other countries.

[HysteryDiagnosis]

30. And here is why.....

Definition: Current military expenditures in US dollars; the figure is calculated by multiplying the estimated defense spending in percentage terms by the gross domestic product (GDP) calculated on an exchange rate basis not purchasing power parity (PPP) terms. Dollar figures for military expenditures should be treated with caution because of different price patterns and accounting methods among nations, as well as wide variations in the strength of their currencies Per capita figures expressed per 1 population.



http://www.nationmaster.com/graph-T/mil_exp_dol_fig_cap

[Walt Starr]

17. One of the biggest foreign policy mistakes ever made by the U.S.

was supporting Israel, IMO.

[hiley]

31. Walt Starr that is the absolute

truth.

[manic expression]

18. NO!

Israel has been oppressing Palestine and its people. We should not support their horrible actions whatsoever, and therefore, we should not support Israel.

[still_one]

23. just to be fair, the wonderful Arab neighbors have been doing

it for quite some time. King Hussein's father massacured thousands, so have the Syrians, and most of the other wonderful supporters of the Palestinians.

what about the colonialization by the west, or when Turkey controlled that area for about 400 years

Wouldn't it be better to work to establish a Palestinian state and an Israelli state living in peace side by side

Frankly, the best thing the U.S. can do is become energy independent

[manic expression]

26. An injustice does not justify another injustice

I would like a Palestinian state just as much as anyone else, but the fact is that Israel doesn't want that to happen. It's a lot like the US not wanting to unify Vietnam after the Geneva Accords. In a perfect world, Israel would never have gained any power, and Jews would live in an Arab state without cleansing them of other people (this is feasible, as Jews lived in Arab countries for a long time, until Israel cleansed Palestinians from their land, and so the Arab nations evicted Jews from theirs...action, reaction). However, if Israel would give back stolen land, stop oppressing Palestinians and give them some respect, I believe peace would soon follow.

[eyl]

34. Except that

"Jews lived in Arab countries for a long time" omits the occasional massacre, religous oppression, etc over the centuries.

Besides, to remind you, every single Jewish community in the areas taken over by Arab forces in 1948 was destroyed. And that's without counting the massacres and expulsions of almost all the Jews from the Arab countries (which began before 1948).

[still_one]

39. there are Israellis who don't want a Palestinian state just as there

are Palestinian's who do not want Israel to exist

As far as you premise about Israel stealing land, that was the result of the wars of the 50's, 60's, and 70's when they were trying to drive Israel into the sea

before 20th century Israel, and western colonialism, the turks controlled that land, and there was no talk of a Palestinian state

In fact, the Arabs would have never allowed it

The only solution is for a Palestinian state and an Israelli state, side by side living in peace, but it probably won't happen because of radicals on both sides of the equation who don't want it to

[Coastie for Truth]

42. Call me cynical

:sarcasm: Israel serves a purpose for Saudi Arabia -- they can send their hot heads to Palestine - as well as Iraq and Afghanistan and the Caspian Republics. Keeps them off the streets of the Kingdom. Kind of like Castro's Marial Boat Lift. :sarcasm:

[Coastie for Truth]

41. "Jews lived in Arab countries for a long time"

You appended

this is feasible, as Jews lived in Arab countries for a long time, until Israel cleansed Palestinians from their land, and so the Arab nations evicted Jews from theirs...action, reaction

Call it what you want - "dhimmi" or "Jim Crow" or "apartheid".

And the Arab countries are still trying extraterritorial application of their - "dhimmi" or "Jim Crow" or "apartheid" - trying to impose their flavor of "dhimmi" or "Jim Crow" or "apartheid" on their trading partners.

Don't take my word --

1. - which they seek to apply on US companies, in their hiring and personnel policies toward US citizens in the USA. -- Hence the need for these laws and these high priced Washington lawyers.

2. - again, for further edification - which they seek to apply on US companies, in their hiring and personnel policies toward US citizens in the USA. -- Hence the need for these laws and these high priced Washington lawyers.

and

3. The Economic War Against the Jews by William Henry Nelson and Terrence Prittie

This is all about the extra-territorial application of "dhimmi" - that's an Arabic word for "Islamic Jim Crow" or "Islamic apartheid".

Half right as far it goes --> "as Jews lived in Arab countries for a long time" - but half wrong for what is unsaid - "Jews lived in Arab countries for a long time" as second class citizens - call it whatever you like - "dhimmi" or "Jim Crow" or "apartheid".

[still_one]

43. that is why we can only go forward

the biggest tradgedy of the bush administration, was that they did not continue the dialog where Clinton left off

I know there were problems with both sides on that, but at least they were talking

In fact bush did everything to undo NOT only what Clinton had paved the way for, but what every subsequent administration, republican or democratic had been trying to do

they did the same crap with North Korea

It is quite unfortunate that the United States wants there "so-called" security over liberty policy

It is just history repeating itself

If you treat someone like a friend they will be your friend
If you treat someone like an enemy they will be your enemy

[Beaver Tail]

28. Absolutely correct

Israel has been oppressing the Palestine people. They do not deserve support.

[hiley]

24. No

ISRAEL AND THE OCCUPIED TERRITORIES
Mass detention in cruel, inhuman and degrading conditions



Introduction

We were all handcuffed and we sat on a pebbly ground. We weren't given
any food, and when we asked for water they poured it over us. The handcuffs were tight and when the blindfolds were taken off on our arrival I saw some people with hands black and swollen. We told the soldiers that they were cutting into us and they said there was no alternative. We started to shout and cry, begging them to ease the handcuffs. It was very cold and some of us had T-shirts and no shoes. We weren't allowed to go to the toilet and had to relieve ourselves there. By 3.30am we were starting to shake and our teeth were chattering with cold.

Majdi Shehadeh was one of more than 800 Palestinians arrested in Tulkarem refugee camp in the West Bank by the Israeli Defence Forces (IDF) in early March 2002. He was arrested on 8 March, told to take off his clothes from the waist up, left for an hour and then transferred to a kibbutz in Israel, before being released the following day without charge. Amnesty International interviewed him on 20 March 2002. The account he gave of his ill-treatment was similar to many others heard by the organization from Palestinians detained by the IDF since 27 February 2002.

This report draws on the findings of several visits to Israel and the Occupied Territories by Amnesty International delegates between March and May 2002, as well as other research conducted by the organization. The report focuses on the mass arbitrary detention and ill-treatment of Palestinians during Israeli incursions into Palestinian residential areas after 27 February 2002. The arrest of more than 8,500 Palestinians between 27 February and 20 May 2002 was accompanied by a pattern of cruel, inhuman or degrading treatment. Some detainees were reportedly subjected to beatings or other torture. Most of those arrested in the beginning of April were held incommunicado in degrading conditions. There was a great increase in the use of administrative detention whereby the detainee may be held indefinitely without charge or trial.

Background
snip---
http://web.amnesty.org/library/index/ENGMDE150742002
Sharon is a terrorist.. just like bush.

[H5N1]

27. not. one. penney.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

33. Why was this thread moved? It's about American policy.

[Coastie for Truth]

38. Here's why it was moved

To make the higher and more stringent standards of the applicable -- and avoid degeneration into a flame war.

And I read those higher standards based on where I have been -- My initiation was at the time that Democratic politics and Progressive Politics were being molded by the "Great Events" of the era--

---Brown v. Board of education
---The "All Deliberate Speed" doctrine to school integration
---The Civil Rights Act of 1964
---The urban riots

These are the rules of the Progressive Clubs in a "changing neighborhood" in an urban community in the heart of the Rust Belt -- and the Northern Tip of Appalachia-- so these became my rules from that era and those life experiences.

This is how the "Post-Brown versus Board of Education" rules of political discourse apply.

What are the "Post-Brown versus Board of Education" rules of political discourse -- well they became demeaned as "Political Correctness" but in practice they meant that if you so much as raised an eye-brow over even the silliest demand -- you were drummed out of the Progressive Movement.

If you even chuckled over the demand of a tiny group of minority EMT students (a four month course - my Mom taught it) that they be awarded a "Doctor of Medicine" degree - you were read out of the Progressive Movement.

If you questioned why the ACLU was not lead in Bakke - you were thrown off of the ACLU Board (actually happened to a Law School Assistant Dean who "wrote the book on Section 1983.").

And one of the corollaries to the "Post- Brown v. Board of Education" rules -- the target got to determine what was offensive.

By the standards of the "Post-Brown versus Board of Education" rules of political discourse, many appends on I/P are objectionable. Irrelevant who it is conflating who with who – the Administrators’ Rules ("Proper Use of Certain Words") apply in accordance with the "Post-Brown versus Board of Education" rules of political discourse – including "Political Correctness" and "It Is The Target’s Call As To What is (Anti-Black, Anti-Hispanic, Anti-Asian, Anti-Jewish, Anti-Muslim, Anti-Female, Anti-Handicapper, Anti-Eastern European Ethnic, Anti-Catholic, whatever)."

[newyorican]

45. It was moved...

so it could be, subsequently, locked.

Locked for breaking the rules of a forum it was not posted in. It's our dirty little secret here that discussions such as this are not allowed. Catch 22.

[Coastie for Truth]

35. I support Israel - and energy independence

Our real problem is our heroin like addiction to oil -- and to an oil rich life style.

Our problems go back to the cynical divvying up of the Ottoman Empire during World War I (A Century Of War : Anglo-American Oil Politics and the New World Order by F. William Engdahl; and Google "Mark Sykes" and "Sykes-Picot Agreement"), before the Balfour Declaration, and carried forward through countless British and US administrations (House of Bush, House of Saud : The Secret Relationship Between the World's Two Most Powerful Dynasties by Craig Unger), and through our present war of "American Blood for foreign oil" and will extend forward to the "Peak Oil" brick wall (The Long Emergency: Surviving the End of the Oil Age, Climate Change, and Other Converging Catastrophes of the Twenty-first Century by James Howard Kunstler) that all of the soldiers and sailors and marines won't fix.

And the average Arab proletariat in the street doesn't share in this exploitation of his mineral birthright. The Arab proletariat is being exploited all around - as his rules spend his birthright ("Petrodollar recycling") on bistros and bordellos and race horse and frivolous investment for the super rich.

Peace will come when all sides realize that our (USA suburban soccer moms in over size SUV's) heroin-meth addiction to gasoline is the root cause of the problems.

I have been in the energy industry for most of my career

[trebizond]

37. Yes certainly- every democratic country should support the freest and--

--most democratic society in the Middle East, and what history surely demonstrates to be a neccesary homeland for the Jewish people. Of course, a crucial part of friendship is a willingness to constructively criticise, and any true commitment to democracy can not be localised. Therefore the USA should be actively, closely and frankly engaged with Israel and the Palestinians in a determined effort to create a peaceful, viable, democratic Palestinian state.

[Jim Sagle]

40. HELL yeah!!!!!!

:party: :toast: :bounce: :thumbsup: :dem: :kick: :loveya: :donut: :headbang: :applause:

[Behind the Aegis]

44. Yes, we should support Israel.

You are correct that the 'terrorists' want US withdrawal from the Middle East and to stop backing Israel. They want the US out of the Middle East because they don't want another, especially a Western nation, telling them how to run their countries. They want US support of Israel to stop because they have their own designs, which mainly consist of destroying Israel.

No one or country deserves "unconditional" support. There will always be things that are just not 'supportable.' However, the conflict in that area is so much more complicated than the common American or European understand. The simplistic notion of "just set up a Palestinian nation" is faulty on so many levels. Also, any one that thinks the establishment of a Palestinian homeland, which I support, will end hostilities toward Israel are in for a RUDE awaking.

Perhaps the US, if really wanting to be a 'peace broker,' should encourage the 20 something Arab/Muslim nations to accept Israel as an entity and stop refusing to acknowledge her existence. To my knowledge, she is the ONLY country that is not recognized en massse by other nations. Perhaps the UN, in all fairness, should condemn nations doing similar or the same things as Israel in their Resolutions. And, just perhaps, some people should recognize that the issues with Israel, sometimes, are not about her policies, but her very right to exist based in a hate for the Jews that live there.

So, yes. The US should continue to support Israel.