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Cassandra Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-31-03 08:24 PM
Original message
How to Talk About Israel - NY Times Magazine
http://www.nytimes.com/2003/08/31/magazine/31ANTISEMITISM.html

"There are several myths to be considered. The first is the idea that the American or the British government is dominated or manipulated by Jews. In fact, none of President Bush's cabinet members are Jewish, and the last time individual Jews played a prominent part in any British government was under John Major. Straw, moreover, has spent more time and energy courting Iran than Israel. The well-being of Israel is not Blair's main concern either. In fact, an equitable deal for the Palestinians is more important to the British leader, who badly needs to rebuild his bridges with other European governments. That is why he wants Washington to push the Israelis harder to make peace with the Palestinians. There is no doubt that Israeli lobby groups are well organized and well financed and have considerable clout in Washington. But then so do other lobbies. That is how the game is played. There was a time not so long ago when hefty books were written about the United States government falling into the hands of scheming Japanese lobbies. It is true that some people in the Pentagon, as well as influential organizations like the American Enterprise Institute and the Project for the New American Century, have close relations with the Likud Party, and especially with Finance Minister Benjamin Netanyahu, who is much more in tune with American neoconservatism than Prime Minister Ariel Sharon is. Douglas Feith and Richard Perle advised Netanyahu, who was prime minister in 1996, to make ''a clean break'' from the Oslo accords with the Palestinians. They also argued that Israeli security would be served best by regime change in surrounding countries. Despite the current mess in Iraq, this is still a commonplace in Washington. In Paul Wolfowitz's words, ''The road to peace in the Middle East goes through Baghdad.'' It has indeed become an article of faith (literally in some cases) in Washington that American and Israeli interests are identical, but this was not always so, and ''Jewish interests'' are not the main reason for it now.
<big snip>
The first condition for a reasoned examination would be to disentangle Israel's politics from all the anti-Semitic myths and other leftovers of a murderous past. This is not so easily done, since Israeli leaders have too often abused history themselves. The Israeli bomb attack on an Iraqi nuclear installation in 1981 might have been justified in many legitimate ways, but to say, as Prime Minister Menachem Begin did, that it was to protect ''the children of Israel,'' asking foreign reporters, ''Haven't you heard of one and a half million little children who were thrown into gas chambers?'' is to dangerously confuse the issue. The same was true when Prime Minister Sharon warned the United States last year not to repeat the mistakes of 1938 and sell out Israel like Czechoslovakia. Such false analogies serve only to invite equally odious comparisons from Israel's critics.

Disentangling American and Israeli interests and government actions is, if anything, even harder. To see Israel as nothing but a cat's paw of American imperialism in the Middle East is a crude distortion. And to hold Washington responsible for every Israeli action against the Palestinians is equally misguided. But it is neither anti-Semitic nor blindly anti-American to point out that the United States could have done much more to stop Israel from humiliating the Palestinians by turning the occupied territories into a kind of Wild East of gunslinging settlers and hounded natives. "


This is a really long piece (7 pages). I find it an interesting critique of Israeli policy, American and European attitudes and history; without a single insult that I can see. Good timing. Please read this in full; I welcome all comments and any historical discussions as well.
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QuietStorm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-31-03 08:34 PM
Response to Original message
1. Is this somewhere else

I am registered to look in to NYT but for some reason my password isn't working and I was wondering if there is another link on this as sometimes NYT articles are placed in full on other links. boo hoo. I want to read it but I can't access it.
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QuietStorm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-31-03 08:39 PM
Response to Original message
2. thanks anyway I got my password to work
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J B Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-31-03 08:43 PM
Response to Original message
3. I keep reading this simplistic "no Jews in cabinet" comment...
Who needs Jews in cabinet when you have evangelical Christians who believe that defense of Israel is a religious obligation.

There may be no reason to consider the current administration a "Jewish-dominated" administration, but that's a far, far cry from being uninfluenced by Jews; indeed, the hue and cry if it was not influenced as such, would be deafening. The reason things are so quiet is because everything's kosher.

I'm not, mind you, arguing the opposite. I'm just saying that this is a bogus acquittal of the influence charge based on an extremely simplistic view of government unfit of a 7-page NYT feature.
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Cassandra Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-31-03 08:55 PM
Response to Reply #3
4. When last I checked...
evangelical Christians are not Jews, and the author points out that the two groups have different agendas that happen to intersect in one spot. It's more like the evangelicals allow the Jewish neocons to have influence, rather than having Jews in charge of policy. I hope you don't think that Jews are now responsible for what evangelical Christians believe about the endtimes.
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QuietStorm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-31-03 09:10 PM
Response to Reply #4
6. I agree the hierachy is being blurred
Edited on Sun Aug-31-03 09:25 PM by QuietStorm

Now I haven't read the article yet, I just finished printing it out. However, the misnomer of the Jews taking over. I agree with you that there is an overlap in agenda... the endgame of each is different however... one group is quite anti-Semitic (for those so concerned with anti-Semites) which tends to be overlooked as there is overlaping interest. Basically in this regard the Israeli Jews are taking the holyland by proxy for the Christian zionists.

In this regard even within US government amidst or within BFEE there also resides a conflict of interest. In a sense Israel is on payroll or the dole they are a grand investment made for larger spoils. The jew counting of neo cons can mislead people into believing "the jews" are attempting to take over America. As in bed as all are at the moment, this misnomer does serve the BFEE, I would not be surprised if they are also responsible for the spin itself.

Pro Israel lobbies are strong, but even there the media caters to the leaders of America not the other way around. If at anytime the Jewish neocons and the Pro Israel lobbiest would decide to usurp the protestant hierarchy there would be hell to pay. The one and only thing that is problematic for me is my feeling that Sharon is a loose cannon he is on his own crusade beyond the judeo christian crusade and israel does pack it's fair share of state of the art weaponry. To say nothing of the international infiltration of Israeli intelligence and assassins.

I find I worry that at the point when the interests should veer, or if Bush should decide to make sharon more accountable for his part in regards to the roadmap, I wonder if or how Sharon might mutiny (even there he too would have hell to pay). Of course I also do not foresee that Sharon will be made to do anything this process has really not been guided by the roadmap and the BFEE and the US hawks that are not of Jewish faith DO support this.

That said. I will now read the article itself.
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Classical_Liberal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-01-03 04:22 PM
Response to Reply #4
18. The New York times is beating a strawman.
.
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Cassandra Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-01-03 05:53 PM
Response to Reply #18
19. Your mixed metaphor is confusing me.
Is that a Jewish dead horse or a Evangelical Christian strawman?
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The Magistrate Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-31-03 08:56 PM
Response to Reply #3
5. So Evangelical Christians Are Jews, Sir?
Enquiring minds want to know....
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newyorican Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-31-03 09:33 PM
Response to Reply #5
8. Would you be so kind...
Edited on Sun Aug-31-03 09:35 PM by newyorican
as to point out exactly where JB said that?

On Edit: corrected poster ID
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The Magistrate Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-31-03 11:35 PM
Response to Reply #8
14. That Is My Reading, Sir
Of "Who needs Jews in cabinet when you have evangelical Christians who believe that defense of Israel is a religious obligation."

A bit flip, perhaps, but the subject is one that gets right up my left nostril. There has been, as you will be aware, a great deal of blatherskite concerning Jewish control of U.S. policy in the region, when the fact is there is very little such, but, in the current administration, anyway, a great preponderance of reactionary Christians. Denunciation of Jewish influence is far more frequent than denunciation of the real culprits.
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tinnypriv Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-31-03 09:30 PM
Response to Original message
7. I don't see why it took 7 pages
Edited on Sun Aug-31-03 09:37 PM by tinnypriv

I read it and there seems to be a couple of basic points: "the Jews" aren't in control, and it is anti-semitic to say so. Further, legitimate criticism of Israel is okay and often warranted.

Those two points are such trivial no-brainers I could say 'em in two sentences. Oh, I just did.

Other than that, there is some basic history, but mostly it is glossed over when it comes to details. Hence, useless if you know anything about the region.

There is one piece of stupidity: the mention of the US invasion of Iraq and the pre-emptive war of 1967 undertook by Israel in the same breath. To compare the two in any way defies belief. Israel could at least make a defensible case of "self-protection"; the US can make none and indeed does not actually want to make such a case to the world.
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Darranar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-31-03 09:57 PM
Response to Reply #7
9. Completely agreed...
That about sums up my own thoughts.
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Cassandra Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-31-03 10:14 PM
Response to Reply #7
10. I find it an interesting overview
of the history of opinion about Israel and the way that has impacted on actions there. Also, in light of some of the recent articles posted, which were in apparent good faith to further the discussion, this article manages some constructive criticism of Israel without insulting anybody. It doesn't blame Palestinians, doesn't dump on Arabs or Europeans, just discusses the ways in which we don't understand one another. It seemed useful to me for that reason alone.
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tinnypriv Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-31-03 11:08 PM
Response to Reply #10
12. I also think it is useful
If all articles on I/P were written even half as reasonably as this, I think people's understanding of the conflict would be dramatically improved. However, that is only because general understanding hovers somewhere between zero and slightly more than zero.

Don't get me wrong, the article is a useful contribution, however I question whether 7 pages were needed to make the points which were made.

7 pages in the magazine section of the most important newspaper in the western world is a goldmine. In this case, that goldmine was largely untapped. The fact that important history was also completely omitted in such a long piece is also unforgivable.
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QuietStorm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-31-03 11:13 PM
Response to Reply #12
13. very good point
Edited on Sun Aug-31-03 11:14 PM by QuietStorm

"The fact that important history was also completely omitted in such a long piece is also unforgivable."

in that regard because of the complete omisions, for those that parle to the Jews are in control, that omission is almost BLARING PROOF to them THAT THE JEWS ARE IN CONTROL.

The omissions only serve to strengthen their bogus case. From their warped perspective that is.
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Violet_Crumble Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-01-03 07:13 AM
Response to Reply #10
15. Yeah, it was useful...
Thanks for posting it, btw. I'm only a bit of the way through it but it looks like it's an interesting read...

Violet...
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Gimel Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-04-03 06:20 PM
Response to Reply #10
28. Thanks for posting the article
while the basic points are made with eloquence and descriptive summations, the conclusions on page 7 are also important.

American foreign policy and ancient prejudices are reinforcing each other in a vicious circle.

This observation is made as a result, and quite worth remembering. The ancient prejudices exist on the Palestinian side as well (mentioned in passing in the article page 6)

Among the Palestinians, who had always been relatively secular, Islamist extremism gradually merged with Palestinian nationalism. The intifadas began with throwing stones, but degenerated into suicide attacks on Israeli citizens, organized by Palestinians with support from parts of the Arab world. Seen from a particular perspective in America, then, especially after 9/11, Israel and the United States, bound together by cold-war concerns in the 60's and 70's, were now thrown together in an existential ''war against terrorism.'' This shaped a climate in which it is not just potentially anti-Semitic to be critical of Israeli policies, but downright unpatriotic, too.



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QuietStorm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-31-03 10:42 PM
Response to Reply #7
11. also agree
Edited on Sun Aug-31-03 11:18 PM by QuietStorm

"The Jews" are not in control. I also agree the basic overview of history in this article is somewhat glossed over and therefore very boring to get through the article.

As to the preemptive business in the same breathe. While Israel can make a defensible case of "self protection", that depends on who you read. Egypt's threat might have been exaggerated (even according to Sharett entries going back to 1955), not that the two were not hostile toward each other. they were, but after the czech's arms deal went through and according to benny morris' accounts going as far back as 1955 israel right wing leaders were hellbent on justifying a pre-emptive strike on Egypt and all legs of Israeli intelligence were at work with various compaigns of improper information aimed at justifying what would become a justifiable retaliation, if not a justified preventive strike. (account also similar regarding the 6 day war in bramfords book on the NSA).

However, I agree in that the threat, just from a geographic perspective, is more so defensible than Saddam's threat to US soil or interest (when one does not consider all the mis and disinformation compaigning that stirred the pot and led up to the strike itself in the 60's I mean).

The main point of that sentence being IMHO that Israel is the pioneer of pre-emptive strategy, and that which might justify pre-emptive intervention even the various strategies of "dirty pool", which is why perhaps the author placed the two in the same breath.

It was at this point that I took a break in my reading of the article as it was at this point that it struck me just how glossed over the history here is. The point of the article being the Jews are not in control, not in America.

In the ME, the Israeli's are US allies as well as consultants in war strategy (even in regard to the US Iraqi War effort). If successful, Israel is promoted to a kind of management level in the gulf region. A kind of overall Landlord, if in fact part othe strateg is aimed at Israel taking over russian and french interests. This in and of itself is somewhat cocky considering the bad blood there.

The main point of the article is that NO "the Jews" are not in control. one page in that point was made adequately.
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Cassandra Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-01-03 08:41 AM
Response to Reply #7
16. In the actual magazine...
in the table of contents is this:
"In this week's issue, an essay examining the allegation - widespread, if often unstated - that Jewish interests unduly influence American foreign policy, particularly in the Middle East. As Ian Buruma observes, the divergent political cultures of Europe and the United States ensure that debate about Israel is fraught in different ways on either side of the Atlantic. Buruma, who lives in Britain and the United States and has lived in Continental Europe and Asia, is especially attuned to the distorting effects that historical guilt and grudges have on present political discourse. "In any question that is loaded by history, one will inevitably encounter manipulation by all sides", he says, "both by those who wish to identify with the victims, and those who feel the need to apologize for the actions of the perpetrators. But in thinking about political problems in one's own time, one has to try to stay free of that."

So really, that's what the essay is about. It's not meant to be a history lesson, but more like a psychological history, which is something we don't see very often. So maybe, just take it on its own terms rather than being disappointed in what it's not.
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bemildred Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-01-03 02:27 PM
Response to Original message
17. Not a polemic.
That's always nice.

It's good to read about De Gaulle again. He was subjected to
similar rhetoric to "cheese-eating surrender monkeys" WRT the
VietNam war, and he did end the Algerian mess, and, as is noted in
the piece, he was at least somewhat prescient. Not that he did not
have a few flaws ...

It is interesting to see Chomsky and the NYT partially in agreement
about the relationship between the USA and Israel, both opposed to
the "US Government is controlled by the Jews" POV.

The writer sometimes fails to make clear the distinction between
opinion and fact, a very common failing these days, but on the
whole tries for balance and dispassion, and one must give him credit.

Nice piece.
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Cassandra Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-04-03 10:21 AM
Response to Original message
20. I'm kicking this
:kick: so that anyone who wants to read the article and hasn't yet can see it before the Times charges you for it.
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StandWatie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-04-03 10:58 AM
Response to Original message
21. hmmm..
For some people on the left, being opposed to Israel, or Zionism, goes beyond specific policies in Gaza or the West Bank; Israel is seen as the colonial Western presence in an Arab world, an American client state locked into global capitalism. Even if the Israelis treated the Palestinians with the most scrupulous generosity -- which they do not -- this impression would persist.

duh.
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Cassandra Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-04-03 01:56 PM
Response to Reply #21
22. Just because that is the impression...
that Arabs have cultivated among themselves, doesn't make it true. The far right here thinks we're traitors; just because they agree on that, doesn't make that true either.
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StandWatie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-04-03 02:16 PM
Response to Reply #22
23. I'm not Arab..
and I think exactly the same thing. I think it's because you can look at it and know it's true. Israel has been described in our own press by it's supporters as "America's cop on the beat in the Middle East".
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Cassandra Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-04-03 02:19 PM
Response to Reply #23
24. Is that like Bush*
speaking from his gut? It's murky down there.
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StandWatie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-04-03 02:24 PM
Response to Reply #24
25. it's what Nixon said..
I don't know, I wouldn't put it past that ole bastard to lie about anything but it's a pretty frank admission about something that it would be hard not to see.

How would you make the case that Israel isn't an instrument of American foreign policy?
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The Magistrate Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-04-03 02:52 PM
Response to Reply #25
26. Nixon Is Long Dead, Sir
Certainly during the latter stages of the Cold War, Israel was an important tool of U.S. policy, being viewed as a local inmsurance against overt Soviet military action in the Near East. In the present day, it is harder to make the case Israel serves an important function for U.S. policy, though certainly it remains an ally. This alliance, in fact, rather complicates matters in the region for the U.S., which could otherwise enjoy more cozy relations with a variety of autocrats, with no worries about popular outbreaks.
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StandWatie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-04-03 03:04 PM
Response to Reply #26
27. that thought has crossed my mind
I do know that to a certain school of neo-conservative thought though that Israeli and American interests are inseperable. How much that idea weighs in against oil interests and the like probably depends on if they really believe OPEC would ever go back to using oil as a weapon and if they can ever get Iraq running.
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Fight_n_back Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-04-03 06:46 PM
Response to Reply #21
29. And to you I say
so what?

Beside the fact that you engage in the same baiting tactics that articles deals with and the fact that it is something you have given little thought even if you are correct, so waht?

What is England's role in europe but to give the US a wedge against German and French interests? What is PAkistan's role in central Asia but to give us a foothold against India?

Where is your vitriol against those countries?

The US actively aided the enemies of Israel for about the same times as it has aided Israel so perhaps you should read a bit on the subject.
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StandWatie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-04-03 06:53 PM
Response to Reply #29
30. the difference would be..
Western and Colonial.

For someone who doesn't see the validity of refugees coming back after 2k years carrying a culture shaped by a millenia or so of European exposure it doesn't make much sense when compared with a native population made refugees in the middle of the twentieth century.

I mean seriously, why is it there are talks about them joining the EU? Because it makes far more sense, they are more or less a European country writ upon the middle east.
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Fight_n_back Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-04-03 07:13 PM
Response to Reply #30
31. You clould think that
if you had no idea what you are talking about.

1) The northern part of Palestine (what became Israel) always had a large (generally majority) Jewish population

2) In modern Israel more than 75% of Israelis were born in Israel.

3) You are saying that Israel need only wait some unspecified (by you) amount of time before the Palestinain Right of Return becomes moot

4) You just came down on support of returning the Southwestern US to Mexico so MOVE OUT

Its moot anyway since Israel currently exists regardless of whtever biases you have against the people who live there.
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StandWatie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-04-03 07:29 PM
Response to Reply #31
32. these are facile things
Edited on Thu Sep-04-03 07:48 PM by StandWatie
and you are just flat wrong about some of them.



#2 is obvious and hey, Israel finally has a prime minister that was actually born there and this will happen more and more in the future but it doesn't change the fact that these people will still divide themselves into Sephardic and Ashkenazic and the Ashkenazic will be basically European in culture and belief structure.

#3 This would be true. I think it's stretching an argument to the ridiculous but fine.

#4 I'm actually all in favor of.
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Gimel Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-04-03 11:55 PM
Response to Reply #32
33. Israeli culture
Language is one indication of cultural beliefs. All Israelis use Sephardic language pronunciations, except Ashkenazi religous language. Of the many religious varities, they generally use their diaspora origon accents in beit knesset (synagogue).

Most Israelis have adapted the celebrations of the Sephardic Moroccan traditions. The percentage of "mixed" marriages between the two groups is large.

You have many misconceptions yourself, it is quite obvious.
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StandWatie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-05-03 11:02 AM
Response to Reply #33
35. no way..
I suppose I just imagined the last election whose entire theme was decided mainly on religious vs. secular themes? Before Al-Aqsa Israel was near a state of civil war. The Palestinians probably saved them from each other.
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Darranar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-05-03 04:15 PM
Response to Reply #35
36. Not true...
There are far more secularists then fundamentalists in Israel. The division between left/right is more pronounced then the division between religion/secularism.
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StandWatie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-05-03 04:23 PM
Response to Reply #36
37. I follow Israeli politics fairly closely
and I would say "left/right" is one of the less important features of the affair. I'm open to a different reading but the fastest growing is Shinui which has almost no discernable identity (probably rightest economicaly but not seriously) other than opposition to Shas. Shas is the second fastest growing party followed by the NRP. This breaks down in practical terms as animosity between the Sephardic and the Ashkenazic. This was the analysis of many pundits in the Israeli press.

It's bad enough that there are dummies set up in many towns with sundress on as bait to try and lure out the religious to throw stones at women dressed inappropriately and the guards in front of shops wouldn't be able to go home if every Palestinian made peace today because they throw rocks through those to if the manequins have heads on them.

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Darranar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-05-03 04:33 PM
Response to Reply #37
38. The situation is FAR from a civil war...
and if the animosity between the left and right ceased, the fundamentalists would be crushed when it comes to politics.
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StandWatie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-05-03 04:40 PM
Response to Reply #38
39. they are crushed
That doesn't mean that nearly 30% of the country aren't either Haredim or Datiim and being disenfranchised may just make them meaner.
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Gimel Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-06-03 01:48 PM
Response to Reply #35
43. this doesn't even relate
The points about a conflict between eusopean (Ashkenazi) and Middle Estern (Sepharim) groups isn't the political conflict today nor is it a religious-secular battle.

By the way, the map you posted doesn't disprove the first point Yang wrote about in his post. It doesn't compare the populations of northern Israel, only those of the total area of the former Palestine, which includes today's Israel and PA areas. The only Palestinian population centers on the map that are close to the north is Nablus. I'm not sure that Yang's totally correct, but the northern Towns of Safed and Rosh Pina have been Jewish since the Spanish expulsion of Jews sometime in the 15th century.

While Israel society has social dicatomies, it is not a European culture. The points about a conflict between European (Ashkenazi) and Middle Eastern (Sephardim) groups isn't the political conflict today nor is it a religious-secular battle. The differences between the two groups (Sephardim-Ashkenazi) were much stronger in the early days of the state. Of course immigrants tend to cling to the language and culture from which they came. While the children of immigrants are totally Israeli.

By the way, the map you posted doesn't disprove the first point Yang wrote about in his post. It doesn't compare the populations of northern Israel, only those of the total area of the former Palestine, which includes today's Israel and PA areas. The only Palestinian population centers on the map that are close to the north is Nablus.

The American influence today is much stronger. Television and electronic media, movies, etc are blamed for much of the social evils of the day. That is world-wide.

Modern dress is dominant, and while religious Jews might be seen wearing traditional garb, much of that originated in Russia and Eastern Europe. The Jewish ghetto's of Europe might seem reflected in some of the religious neighborhoods today, i.e., large families living in small apartments, cobbled streets and open-air markets, but that is as much Meditteranean as European.

While women are not generally wearing shawls and men dressed in robes and sandals, which may be a mental picture wome have of the Middle East, the whole world has adopted Western tyle modern dress. Saeb Erekat (but not Arafat) wears a Westen style suit.
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rini Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-05-03 06:55 AM
Response to Original message
34. This article
was the most condensating piece of tripe I've read in quite some time. When there is a serious discussion about the influence of "big oil," Vatican, Evengelical, Afro-American,Irish, and WASP control of the government, I'll accept a discussion regarding the so-called "Jewish influence."
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Cassandra Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-06-03 10:47 AM
Response to Reply #34
40. This article tries to find...
the origins of the paranoia about "Jewish influence" by looking at the history of it. We don't remove the paranoia by refusing to discuss it. There have been many articles and comments about the influence of big oil, the Vatican, evangelicals and WASP control of the government, though not usually on the I/P board. Comments on the excessive influence by African-Americans usually are found on wingnut boards, and the Irish don't get talked about much these days.
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rini Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-06-03 11:00 AM
Response to Reply #40
41. You make
a very good point. It just gets vexing after a few millenium.
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Cassandra Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-06-03 11:45 AM
Response to Reply #41
42. Since I'm both Jewish
and usually on your side of this argument, I agree, wholeheartedly. I wanted to post this article in response to a whole series of very nasty ones to show those on the other side of this argument that it was possible to criticize Israeli policy in a civilized manner without resorting to those words like evil, stealing, illegitimate, etc, that we've come to expect. Also, to point out to those who support the Palestinians that some of their anger against Israel may have been stoked by years of guilt and propaganda by others rather than being something they came to in a vacuum.
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