the real work for the "pro palestenian"....

[pelsar]

putting the pressure on israel is "easy"..in that israel responds to public pressure, sometimes more sometimes less but the pressure is there. This is one of the aspects of western democracies....they are a society.

first we must differentiate between those who are "pro palestenian" up to the point of the occupation and those who actually care of for the lives of the palestenians. For the first, things are moving along, somewhat bumpy but things are moving. For the latter, the real work has just begun...the problem being that human shields, intl public protests, will not have much affect, or at least far less than it has on israel:

These are not the only events religious adherents plotted against. The Qalqilyah municipality, which is headed by a member of Hamas, ordered that music no longer be played in the city's zoo, and also forbade operation of public water fountains, as they create sculptures of sorts, which are forbidden by religious law.

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/604638.html

in fact for those who really really care about the lives of the palestenian children and women...the real challange has only just begun..me....though I wish them luck and no doubt my country will be open to their homosexuals, and lesbians who are lucky enough to escape...i'll be on the sidelines, i've already been burnt by the palestenians, i'm keeping my distance.

[Nicholas D Wolfwood]

1. Burned by the Palestinians? Might I ask how?

[pelsar]

3. burned....

in our attempts to balance between security and haveing the palestenians work within israel we've had many many murders......we close off the territories for a while...open them and would wait for the next car bomb, shooting spree etc...this went on for several years...i call that being burned.

as far a qalquilia...... They elected the hamas on their council not us....if you would like a comparison check into Tulkarim....they too have a wall only they did not elect a religious council.

this is total palestenian affair 100%....and it doesnt look good for the simply secular palestenain

[idontwantaname]

4. there are many closet secular palestinians.

interesting you bring up tulkarem as hamas has an amount of influence in that area.
i dont know whether people here know but tulkarem use to "allow" alcohol consumption and used to have "risque" theaters.

i do not remember when these "secular" luxuries disappeared but what i do know is one night not so long ago a group of us went out for some icecream and a couple older palestinian men got very very upset because there was a single woman with us.

[pelsar]

5. i would like to have known those things....

its very interesting for me to read about your experiences.....from my side i only know, that I DONT know whats going on. Since I can tell that people who havent stood where I've stood (and still do) have no idea what I"ve seen or experienced, so its only true for the other side as well....

you should write more about the little experiences....

my knowledge is a combo of what i've read, learned heared or seen.....cant say I've never been to tulkarim, but never went out for an ice cream there....

[Monkie]

6. but the palestinians have never had a democratic means of expressing

themselves in relation to what happened to their country.
Israel could never have been created by truly democratic means,never.
I can understand that for you to live in Israel in this "us v them" situation must be horrific,and if that is the only reality you have experienced this must be a awful strain on you personally.But from the time of the creation of the state of Israel the Palestinians have had no democratic means of expressing themselves,the strain on ordinary Palestinians must be enormous growing up under defacto occupation.
A bit of empathy goes a long way?Because neither side has a monopoly on "I'm living in fear".
You dont have to agree with the action of a madman to be able to see that if one were to design a place to warp human minds it wouldnt look much different from the occupied territories?

[pelsar]

7. i dont see it as us vs them.....

i wish them all the luck in the world...for the secular palestenain hes got a real fight on his hands...but they, more than any other "arab" know what democracy is about. The joke is that the years they've spent in israeli prisons served as their "universities"...they learned hebrew, read israeli papers and learn how it works....so they, more than the egyptians know what to expect.

I just want no part of it....I dont want their fight to spill over...and it will...because we're going to want a secular PA not a iranian version as our neighbors.....and we'll probably get some "refugees as well" (and it will be ironic...)

i doubt the "world community" can really do anything about it realistically if hamas takes over, and of course the irony will be that "our benevolent occupation" will be remembered as "the good life"...

it doesnt look good...and thats not good for israel either....we need a secular neighbor with which to sort out our problems not a fanatical religious govt.....but its none of our business....and this probably what the attitude will be from the world as well....(the little palestenians screwed again...)

[Monkie]

15. i have a really radical idea that might be a answer

its REALLY radical,but i think it would solve any and all of your issues with the palestinians and religious extremism.

If The Israeli's and the Palestinians joined into one state under one democratic government with the right of return guaranteed for both peoples (including jews wishing to return to arab countries).
If they sat down together and had a truth and reconciliation commission.
Do you not think the Palestinians will embrace the secular examples and pleasures and rights of Israel?
You could even call it Palestine?it would be seen as a great "gift" or recognition by all Arabs?
The only people that need the name "israel" are religious people?
I know this is a really radical idea and i'm not a noted philosopher but i have given this much thought over the years and i keep coming back to this as the only long term solution that would bring about peace and happiness for both peoples.
What has anyone to lose from this except a few on the (religious) extremes?

[Nicholas D Wolfwood]

17. It wouldn't happen.

Arabs have a lot more people than do the Israelis. All Israeli power would be pretty much nullified.

[Monkie]

18. i dont see what you are suggesting

i think the prestige and power of secular israeli's would increase enormously.Power is prestige more than might itself?Compare Gandhi to any general for example.
I confess i dont know exact figures but i think its safe to assume the majority in the israeli parliament is already secular,they certainly already have alot of experience with coalition government and proportional representation and together with secular arabs i think i can say together they would have a sizable secular majority and that it could be made to really work.

[Nicholas D Wolfwood]

19. The Israeli government would be dominated by Arab interests.

For an example, if all of India immigrated to the United States, power in the government would entirely be in their hands because they outnumber us.

Though that's a bigger disparity than this is, if all Israeli-Arabs were given equal voting status, the Arab faction would hold all the power in the Israeli government. None of the people currently in power would retain office.

[Monkie]

20. but you are falling for the wrong argument or a trap of language?

"if all Israeli-Arabs were given equal voting status, the Arab faction"
This presumes that secular arabs are in anyway different than secular israeli's,that they in some way are not the same human beings.
In America African-americans and Italian immigrants dont vote by colour or background but on philosophy.
The secular Israeli's and the secular Palestinians together would create a unbeatable faction?They would be the majority

[pelsar]

22. this aint no utopia.....

the differences in culture between the palestenians and us, not to mention the present distrust is far too great.

a country needs a single history with which to teach its children, some factual some fictional, but it has to be a single history for one to take pride in....what would happen to the "israeli museum"..the various monuments to soldiers killed...the palestenain side would have a serious problem with those aspects. Likewise celebrating arafats legacy would make many israelis gag.....how about some simpler aspects....the monuments to the jews who immigrated from europe via the sea....guess they would have to be torn down....

it would mean revising the history of both peoples......neither are ready for that at this point.

[Monkie]

25. its no easy utopia i know, but can you see my logic and honest wish?

I see difficulties too,but who would have said that the south-african situation could have turned out the way it did.I know its very different and in some ways easier because the demographics (i hate that word) are more equal in I/P.The reconciliation there was imperfect,but the country didnt fall into the mess many predicted.

it wouldnt be easy, but it would be worth it?
It wouldnt be perfect,but it would be beautiful?
"you" would feel world empathy?

i want to say i respect you for the fact that you just read what i said and digested what it meant and looked at the practicalities and thought about it however briefly.
A lot.

[Nicholas D Wolfwood]

23. What the hell are you talking about?

Do you understand I/P issues at all? This is in no way, shape, or form like the United States. Your comparison is downright asinine.

[Monkie]

24. i beg to differ,how can I/P issues be different from other human issues

i'm not equating situations because that would drag the argument into the realms of what event equals some other somewhere else.
But the african-american point was made only because everyone instantly understands that when african-americans "got" universal suffrage they didnt all suddenly go out and vote for a african-american?
But to say that I/P issues or arab and israeli's are fundamentally different from eachother or any other human beings is to play a dangerous game?

I have seen you advocate the "palestinian corner" on this board so i'm a bit confused that you dont see the inherent beauty of the suggestion and how it could change the dynamics of the I/P issues dramatically.
I know no history of a minority having long term success in ruling over a majority and if you play that out to its logical (and negative) conclusions in ones head in relation to I/P the only two other pictures i end up with are a nuclear wasteland or "hamas driving into the sea", and neither of those conclusions are attractive to me in any way.

[Nicholas D Wolfwood]

27. You're living in a fantasy world.

It's simply not going to happen. You honestly don't think that if the percentages were to suddenly change such that African Americans made up 66% of the population while caucasians consumed only 12% of the population that the vast majority of our government would not be run by African Americans? Please, it's utterly ridiculous to believe that wouldn't be the case. People vote for candidates that will best represent them, period.

Under your plan, Israelis would have to sit back and literally say to themselves, "You know what? I don't want to be in power any more. Let's just give control of the whole country to the Palestinians." Please, you tell me what the likelihood of that EVER happening is? And not to sound like I'm just bashing Israelis, but no one in their right minds, no matter what their race or ethnic background is, would EVER IN A MILLION YEARS make that decision.

It's not a question of the "beauty of the plan" that I object to. It's the sheer fact that this will never happen under ANY circumstances.

[Nicholas D Wolfwood]

9. I call being shot with flechette rounds, bombed from fighter jets, and

having your house torn down being "burned" too. I call the execution of a 6 year old girl attending her mother's funeral getting "burned". I guess you could say I'd been burned by the Israelis.

But the real truth is that neither side has a moral high ground. I suggest you try to step down from yours.

[pelsar]

10. its not a high moral ground..

as much as i dont trust the palestenains they dont trust me.....I have no problem with that as that is our environment.....

as they slowly develop their own state, I personally dont like some of what i see, aspects which will not lead to a peaceful neighborly relationship...and if those religious aspects have control over the newly minted palestenian state...I will want nor trust any part of it.

how about you?....you've obviously been here, will you go back and fight for a secular palestine...fight against the hamasnikim for the "little palestenain"...or once free of the israelis do you consider your "work done" and you will no longer fight for the civil rights of the citizen palestenian?

infact you are exactly the kind of person i was thinking of when I read the original article...does your care for palestenain rights end with us israelis or are you willing to put your body between "joe palestenain" and the hamas?

oh and the "bombed from fighter jets"...given that only twice were jets used to drop a single bomb each in gaza I have to question your accuracy here......

[Nicholas D Wolfwood]

11. Will you fight for a secular Israel?

Will you fight for the non-Jewish Israeli? Will you fight for equal rights for the Arab-Israeli citizens?

[pelsar]

12. heh heh....wrong person your asking.....

I am secular, i have business relations with israeli arabs, i vote for the secular/center/lefty bunch in both municiple and national... the influence I have within my circles is without discrminiation be it arab/druze/christian/jew

oh yea, I take my daughter with me shopping in the arab village next to us, so she'll be see how they are people, and very nice ones at that...sort of a real education kind of thing (anyways the vegis are better there than in the chain supermarkets)

my everyday life is based on it, my time spent in the army has its influence as well on those around me given my standing....

and you...will you take that extra effort to fight for the secular palestenain.....or is your caring for their "civil rights" have an asterik on it?

[Nicholas D Wolfwood]

13. Then I give you a lot of credit.

I'm glad to see you are open minded. Of course, fighting for secularism is different from being open minded, as you pointed out. Are you fighting to see equality and justice occur within Israel? Or are you tolerating the current environment, while not being prejudiced yourself? It's very much the same question you asked me, and yet you do not answer it yourself. Unless, of course, you're only asking me how I would vote, then you've given your answer. But that does not seem to be the case. You seem to be asking me if I would continue my activism in favor of a secular government, something which you do not state you are doing. I could be mistaken, and I apologize if I am.

As for a secular palestine - I would hope and expect that the Palestinian people would want a secular government. In my experiences, I have encountered few Palestinians that want a religious government. I am not personally a Palestinian, and so I cannot claim authority to tell anyone what form of government they should choose for themselves. However, should an oppressive government form there, whether secular or religious, I would fight to remove the illegitimate government.

[pelsar]

14. activism vs non active...

now were getting into "how active are we"....I would say for me...not much. I'm not out there picking olives with the palestenians fighting off the settlers...I'm not out there screaming infront of the knesset.

my 'activism" is pretty much passive,...got a blue ribbon on my car (signifys i'm for pulling out of gaza)...i am volunteer in the reserves (ok thats a pretty hefty chunk of time)...for several reasons....one of them being I have influence on the "young ones"

but thats about it

realistically as far as the palestenians go, if they go "religious' there is little that can be done about it, like iran....and it will be a shame. And realistically they will probably be "forgotten by the world as well"

my only contention is that the screaming about this conflict is not so much FOR the palestenains as against us israelis...my reasoning being that once they have their own state, they will probably be forgotten. Now this doesnt take away from the occupation and its evils mind you...I just like things to be as honest as possible.

[Nicholas D Wolfwood]

16. Unfortunately, that's the way of the world altogether.

A lot of people will "forget" about this cause once its over. Something else will become more pressing. It's not just Israel/Palestine. How much do you hear about Bosnia/Herzogovenia nowadays? Somalia? Hell, Vietnam or Cambodia?

On edit: To make my point more clear, people didn't just speak out in those cases just because they wanted to complain about one side or another.

[pelsar]

21. good point...

that i really didnt think about...bosnai and others are long forgotton...but the problems persist....so perhaps my little thesis is wrong....

[idontwantaname]

2. unfortunately...

religious extremism is something the palestinian population will have to deal with and find a solution for...

as much as any western person would like to shape society with their progressive views they cannot do that unless theyre willing to commit indefinitely.

as for qalquilia... the city itself is in sad shape.... being surrounded by the wall with only one way in and out... through the IDF.

[Coastie for Truth]

8. The "disinvesting churches will have to follow the Unitarian policy

of "actively" investing in Palestinian enterprises - especially enterprises that are "job multipliers" (see Kerry adviser Richard L. Florida's book The Rise of the Creative Class: And How It's Transforming Work, Leisure, Community and Everyday Life for the nurturing of "job multipliers"). Anything less calls into question their bona fides.

Likewise for the boycotting academicians. And not just liberal arts and humanities and social sciences -- but "hard" sciences, engineering, medicine, and business. Likewise, anything less calls into question their bona fides.

I am waiting to get stampeded in the rush to actually do good by the self anointed do-gooders.

[Jim Sagle]

26. Crickets chirping....