Iraq: New Constitution prevents citizenship for Jews, says MP

[sabra]

<<SNIP>>
http://www.adnki.com/index_2Level.php?cat=Religion&loid=8.0.191183114&par=0

IRAQ: NEW CONSTITUTION PREVENTS CITIZENSHIP FOR JEWS, SAYS MP

Baghdad, 27 July (AKI) - The first draft of the new Iraqi constitution will prevent Iraqi Jews, stripped of their nationality in the 1940s and 1950s, from re-obtaining it, Mundhir al-Fadl, an Iraqi MP and member of the constituent assembly's constitution commisssion, has told Adnkronos International (AKI). Al-Fadl, one of the commision members responsible for drafting the constitution's chapter on "rights and duties" explained that one paragraph of the draft says that "the Iraqi nationality is a right acquired by every Iraqi, which cannot be withheld for any reason and is the basis of his citizenship."

"All those who have been deprived of their citizenship after 8 February 1963 have the right to recover it, as they have the right to multiple nationality," the draft continues.

However, the parliamentarian, who is part of the Kurdish list, pointed out that this rules out Iraq's Jews, who were forced to emigrate from the country before 8 February 1963, the date of the coup carried out by the Baath party, who overthrew the country's then ruler, Brig Abd-al-Karim Qasim, who had taken power in a military coup almost five years earlier.

"I believe that every Iraqi citizen deprived of their nationality for any reason, political, ethnic or religious, has the right to recover it," al-Fadl told AKI. He added that "this opinion represents the majority, but not all the members , it is contrary to the universal declaration of the rights of man and implies a clear discrimination against men on the basis of their religion," he said, affirming that "the aim of this text is clearly to prevent Iraqi Jews from recovering their Iraqi nationality."

<</SNIP>>

[Spider Jerusalem]

1. Why is this not really surprising?

I have to wonder if the new Iraqi government will at least allow Iraqi Jews to exercise their "right of return" to Israel.

[bribri16]

54. Where Africans and Native Americans allowed citizenship in our

Constitution in the beginning?

[boddhi]

67. there are NO rights denied by the constitution

nor any of the amendments, unless you count the age and citizenship requirements for the Presidency and other elected officials. That's one of the amazing things about our constitution. (That's why I was amazed that there was discussion about introducing a constitutional amendment regarding gay marriages - it would be the first to actual limit rights of any individuals.) Limits about who could vote were left to the states and it took a constitutional amendment to ensure that all could vote in any state, but imagine how much harder it would have been for women and minorities if the constitution had set the restrictions.

The Iraqi constitution is starting out by restricting the rights of people. It doesn't matter whether or not someone would want to live there. To build it into the constitution means it will take a very long time to ever change it and no province can pass a law otherwise.

Further, this "constitution" is further eroding rights by stating that Islamic law (Shari'a) rules over any existing law. Say goodbye to women's rights.

I'm so glad we're there to usher in a new era of democratic freedom for the Iraqi people.

[northzax]

88. second limit

prohibition limited the rights of individuals. course that didn't really take all that well. Think if the gay marriage one passes that the Mob will get into the gay wedding racket? I can see Don Corleone now, "will you, Stan, make Dan an offer he can't refuse?"

[mbperrin]

116. Maybe recognizing slaves as 3/5 of a person for representation

purposes while holding slaves as chattel property with no rights is a limit?

Just checking.

[northzax]

89. see, there's the beauty of the thing

for 1792, the Constitution was the most radical document in history. You'd think that following Constitutions would improve not get worse. evolution, you know.

[Lilith Velkor]

115. Maybe they're trying to encourage it.

They see that their overlords (the US) already spend lots of money maintaining a colony specifically for Jews, so why wouldn't they figure that Jews should go there?

[Missy M]

2. Doesn't seem like a democracy to me but I wonder what the Israeli..

position on the same situation in their country would be, I have no idea.

[Adrian Luca]

7. The Israeli position

The Israelis deny palestinians pushed out of Israel through brutal ethnic cleansing in the late 1940's onwards the right to return to Israel. It's official policy that the US supports.

[Jacobin]

10. Perhaps that has discomfited some of other faiths in the M.E.?

Just suggesting..........

[K-W]

12. Yep, the US and Israel have no moral standing to complain.

Which shows what level the US and Israel are on morally.

[Colorado Blue]

19. Correction, the post is by IanDBI.

[Colorado Blue]

18. "Brutal ethnic cleansing?" Hello? Please see the post

in this thread by RedCloud, about the Jewish refugees from the Arab world, and furthermore I'd like to know your position as to why the Arabs deem it necessary to expel all Jews from Gaza and the West Bank.

Or maybe I've misunderstood their intentions and they indeed intend to offer Jewish people full citizenship in the Palestinian state?

[K-W]

20. Niether side can justify its crimes based on the crimes of the other. EOM

[Colorado Blue]

21. Well, that's good to know. I'm sure, therefore, that you

VIGOROUSLY condemn terrorism.

[K-W]

22. Huh? EOM

[hoboken123]

28. I know

The myopic views expressed on DU on this subject always surprises me.

[barb162]

40. myopic

and often one-sided

[Zhade]

45. Maybe because Gaza and the WB is Palestinian land?

I mean, just a thought...

[JerseygirlCT]

96. That's a losing proposition.

That land has been in many hands over many years. The only reason it is currently in Israeli hands is that Israel was viciously attacked in 1967 by all of its neighbors. Surprising them, Israel fought back and won.

It's very easy to take a one-sided position here and feel for the poor Palestinians. The thing is, there's plenty of people in a bad situation there, plenty of people to feel badly for, and plenty of people to blame. The tricky part is you cannot assign that blame by nationality and tie it all up in a neat little bow.

The Palestinians as a people have been at least as badly used by the Arabs of the area as they have by the Jews. Denied citizenship, and used as pawns in an Arab power game against Jewish Israel. They also had an opportunity, along with Israel, to form their own country. They gambled on war and pushing Israel into the sea. They lost.

I'm not taking one side here. I'm saying that the situation is very complex, and pointing fingers might feel good, but it doesn't make any sense, or solve any of the problems.

[Violet_Crumble]

73. How can someone have a position on something that isn't true?

By that all-purpose catchall, 'the Arabs', I assume you actually mean the PA? Maybe you could provide a shred of evidence from a credible source that Jews like Amira Haas who lived quite happily amongst Palestinians in Gaza would be expelled? Or are you claiming that international law, which has repeatedly stated that settlements in the West Bank and Gaza are illegal, is actually anti-semitic and it's all about expelling Jews? What about the disengagement? Is Sharon expelling Jews from Gaza, rather than dismantling settlements and forcing settlers to return to Israel?

I would expect that no-one in their right mind would demand that the Palestinians offer full citizenship to the extremists among the settlers. Why should they? Also, as Palestine isn't a state yet, and there's no sign on the horizon of that happening, how does one gain citizenship to occupied territory that isn't a state?

Violet...

[Violet_Crumble]

36. Israel also just introduced a law denying citizenship to Palestinians...

"The Knesset voted 59-12 Wednesday to grant citizenship to Palestinians married to Israeli citizens only if the Palestinian men are 35 and older and if the women are 25 and older.

The decision relates to an emergency measure that was due to expire July 31. According to that measure, Palestinians were banned altogether from becoming Israeli citizens under family unification policies.

Wednesday's decision, a vote on an amendment to the Citizenship Law, relaxes the emergency regulations by allowing some Palestinians to become citizens, but writes into law limitations on family unification that had previously been considered temporary."

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/604523.html

Funnily enough, many of those who shriek about the discrimination of the draft Iraqi constitution will turn around and defend discriminatory Israeli law which denies Palestinians citizenship...

[barb162]

79. Actually they are granting citizenship to Palestinians

in certain cases which is a lot more than what the Iraq constitution draft is doing.

[Violet_Crumble]

81. So bigotry is better if there's 'certain cases'?

Sorry, but I totally disagree on that one...

[barb162]

92. So bigotry 100% of the time is better than in certain cases?

[Violet_Crumble]

100. I think both laws are bigoted...

One's not better than the other, and I don't believe in trying to justify one by claiming that the other's better...

Violet...

[saracat]

3. And this is what we helped create?

And people don't like our regime referred to as Nazi's?

[K-W]

4. And the freedom just keeps rolling in. EOM

[geek tragedy]

5. I'll say it: Why would any Jew WANT to move to 2005 Iraq? nt

[Jacobin]

8. Well, there were quite a few who wanted to go there......

Wolfowitz, Perle, Feith, Friedman, to name a few...... :hide:

[Miss Chybil]

27. But, they surely don't want to be Iraqi cictizens. Iraqis don't rule the

world. Only rich, white Americans do. If I were Jewish, Iraq would be the last place I'd want to be. I'm not Jewish and Iraq is the last place I want to be.

[DemsUnite]

25. Or anyone with an IQ above room temperature?

[Zhade]

46. Why would ANYONE want to?

NT!

[barb162]

93. Why would anyone, period

It looks like it is going to be a shariafest

[Javaman]

6. Nothing like promoting democracy, huh?

I thought they were writing a constitution, not Mien Kumf. I guess their constitutions will contain no bill of rights. Funny how that works.

[bemildred]

9. Another thread on this subject:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=124&topic_id=96532

[sabra]

11. I tend to stray away from that forum :-)

Just a little too hot for my taste.

[bemildred]

15. Yep. nt

[RedCloud]

13. While Europe twiddled its thumbs on the Holocaust,

I think letting as many Jews be killed as possible, it also forced the issue of Israel onto the Arab states when other areas (non- European, of course) had given the green light for settlement...

It is also the height of contradictions for those of the Islamic faith not to be tolerant of other religions...

And shock of all shocks, that during the Spanish Inquisition many from Arab ancestry pretended for centuries to be Jews so they could still stay in Spain. The secret of the earlier faith got lost in time and many of today's Jews are of not too distant arab origin.

[sattahipdeep]

14. Rev. Pat Robertson and Ariel Sharon not so Gigely today n/t

[Ian David]

16. Not a surprise. See: Silent Exodus, by By Pierre Rehov

See movie trailer
http://www.shoebat.com/trailer_exodus.php

Silent Exodus was selected at the International Human Rights Film Festival of Paris (2004) and presented at the UN Geneva Human Rights Annual Convention (2004)



In 1948 nearly one million Jews lived in Arab lands. But In barely twenty years, they have become forgotten fugitives, expelled from their native lands, forgotten by history and where the victims themselves have hidden their fate under a cloak of silence.

A people whom legend have always associated with "wandering" many of these Jews from Arab lands had lived there for thousands of years and accepted their fate, through good times and bad times.

But 1948, the beginning of their exodus, also saw the birth of the State of Israel.

And, while the Arab armies were preparing to invade the young refugee-country, the survivors of the Shoah were piling up in rickety boats. Meanwhile a few hundred thousand Arabs from Palestine were getting ready to flee their homes, convinced that they would return as winners and conquerors.

Soon - by a terrible twist of fate they, as well, began to fill up refugee camps and passed on their refugee status to new generations.

The Jews, however, did not receive refugee status.

They had just rediscovered the land of their birthright.

And if they came from Morocco, Algeria, Tunisia, Libya, Egypt, Syria, Iraq or from Yemen, if they had lost everything, even their relatives and their cemeteries, they were ready to rebuild their lives in the West and for many - in Israel - and try to forget their past.

Without ever asking for compensation or the right of return, or even wishing that their story be told...

More:
http://www.pierrerehov.com/exodus.htm


Also:

Jews had been living in Arab lands for thousands of years. There were approximately a million Jews living in Arab countries between 1946 and 1974 who had accepted their fate in good times and bad times, enduring pogroms and persecutions for hundreds of years. Some Jews even considered their survival a miracle; many were expelled from the Arab world. But for others 1948 marked the beginning of their exodus with the birth of the state of Israel. These Jews did not get special status. They came from Aden, Yemen, Lebanon, Egypt, Iraq, Syria, Iran, Algeria, Morocco, Tunisia and Libya. Though they had lost everything and sometimes even relatives, memories and cemeteries, it was in Israel and the West that they were able to rebuild their lives. They asked for no compensation, nor any right to return, nor even wished that their story be told. Theirs was a Silent Exodus.
http://www.landmarkmedia.com/video.php?video=957

[Colorado Blue]

17. Thanks. People have no idea about these other refugees

and I've had comments from people on this board trying to deny that this occurred. Needless to say most lost everything - businesses, homes, and many were fortunate to have escaped with their lives.

Some of these folks are now suing the Arab governments involved, not for reparations but to put their ordeal on record.

[Violet_Crumble]

34. maybe they deny it because it's not true...

As has been pointed out to you time and time again, the situation of Jews in Arab countries was a similar one to the Palestinians who became refugees from the 1948 war - some were expelled and some fled. What muddies the water even more is that the Zionist movement was actively encouraging Jews from Arab countries to migrate to Israel, which some did. How is that group refugees? In fact, how is anyone who finds a new home where they are welcome and given citizenship a refugee? To claim that all Jews were expelled against their will shows a high level of ignorance and imo a penchant for histrionics...

I tend to think that anyone who calls for compensation and/or repatriation of Jews who were expelled or fled, yet opposes the same for Palestinian refugees to be displaying some pretty big double standards...

Violet...

[barb162]

42. If people are expelled maybe they all should get compensation

whether Jew, Palestinian, etal. I never knew the Arabs were expelling Jews. I wonder even more now why Israel gets on their nerves so much

[Violet_Crumble]

71. It'd seem a reasonable idea...

..but during my time in the I/P forum, I've seen quite a few people insist that Israel should not compensate Palestinians for their property and loss of livelihood, yet spread nonsense that every Jew who left places like Iraq was forcefully expelled and they must get compensation from the state they came from. In doing that, apart from displaying an incredible double standard, they also negate the hard work of the Zionist movement that was at the time encouraging Jews from those countries to move to Israel, because in their version, no-one left willingly, but were forcefully expelled...

btw, the Jews that are being talked about in this thread were and still are Arabs, which is why when they got to Israel they tended to suffer identity crisis and weren't treated the best for a while...

I'd say for some neighbouring states, the fact that Israel has occupied their territory is more than enough reason for Israel to get on their nerves...

Violet...

[Zhade]

47. Double standards, indeed.

Great post!

[Violet_Crumble]

72. Thanks, Zhade...

Great to cross paths with you again, btw!

Violet....

[barb162]

43. I am glad they are suing. But I bet the records will get lost,

somewhat like the Swiss bank records of deposits of the German Jews prior to WW2

[Isere]

26. Thank you!

Just this week I met a Jewish woman who was forced to flee Egypt. She had little notice of her expulsion so couldn't really prepare. She showed me two little pieces of needlework that she took with her, but she wasn't able to pack the frames.

There is a truly excellent book about the experiences of one Jewish Egyptian family that was forced to leave their home and belongings after the Suez crisis. It is called "Out of Egypt" by Andre Aciman. The writing is outstanding.

[barb162]

41. I didn't know this

Geez, maybe these same Jews kicked out of their homes should demonstrate like the Palestinians have been doing the last 60 years. I wonder why this has never been publicized. Thanks

[deadparrot]

23. Hooray for freedom and democracy! nt

[number6]

24. is this bushes democracy ?

New Constitution prevents citizenship for Jews.

why deny citizenship to anyone ??

[Lecky]

29. Freedom is on the march!

Except for women and Jews...

The USA doesn't give a damn either, as long as whoever in power doesn't get in the way of our oil supply.

Why don't the ignorant masses realize this yet? Even the neocons know their propaganda is a bunch of shit. I guess "Murdering For Oil" doesn't have a nice enough ring to it.

We will have US troops in Iraq for years to come and terrorism will not be going away anytime soon.

[BayCityProgressive]

30. The Jew bashing on

this board always astounds me. Last I checked Muslims and Christians could live in Israel. Israel is also far more liberal with the gay community than any of their poor innocent neighbors would ever be. Not to mention Israel is the only democracy in the M.E. Yeah they have major problems like the gaza mess but look at all the colonialism and such in EVERY countries past. Yes, we must work to end it but I would rather live in Israel than ANY of the other M.E. countries any day of the week. Geez...you would never know Jews are one of the Democrats biggest base blocks by the posts on this board.

[number6]

31. do you have Jew bashing mixed up with criticism of Israel ?

is there a large group of Jew bashers on DU ?
where ?
the Democrats are known for getting most of the Jewish vote
does anybody deny that ?

how many people on DU have stated they would rather live
in Iraq, Iran, or Saudi Arabia than Israel ?
(this I would like to see)

[Coastie for Truth]

37. A statistically significant portion of the Israel Bashing is Jew Bashing

NT

[Zhade]

49. Can you actually back up that assertion?

Criticism of the Israeli government, its policies over the years, or the Likud party are not "Jew bashing".

Saying "I hate Ariel Sharon, that fucking Jew" would be Jew-bashing.

(Saying "I hate Ariel Sharon because he's a coldhearted bloodthirsty bastard" is just a demonstration of sanity.)

[K-W]

50. statistically significant? What does that mean? EOM

[number6]

68. A portion of the Israel Bashing is Jew Bashing.

yes but, what is a statistically significant portion ?

[Media_Lies_Daily]

80. Wow....got a link to the source of your statement?

[Lecky]

32. Hmm...I haven't seen a lot of Jew bashing on DU

Now while I would never want to live in Iraq I think it's beyond arrogant and foolish for the US to go in there and try to force "democracy".

[Violet_Crumble]

35. Jew bashing = criticism of Israel

Didn't you get the memo?

[Coastie for Truth]

38. You haven't "SEEN" a lot of Jew Bashing on DU

http://www.ibm.com/news/us/2004/09/2004_09_20.html

[K-W]

51. Someone who equates criticism of Israel and Jew Bashing

isnt in a position to tell other people what they do and dont see.

[Adrian Luca]

33. Get your facts straight...

The brutal ethnic cleansing that immediately followed the creation of modern Israel is fact. Terrorism and massacres were used to instill fear in Palestinian populations in order to force them out of land desired by the modern Israeli state. Jabbering about how gays can sunbake on Israeli beaches today doesn't negate the fact that Palestinians were ethnically cleansed from Israel.

[BayCityProgressive]

39. And look what

The US did to the indians, to the native hawaiins or how we install puppets in south america and the carribean. There are plenty of big problems with us too just like every country. I just think people seem to hold Israel to some higher standard then everyone else. What of all the arab nations cleansing jews from their countries and still denying them rights? Why don't we have hundreds of activists posting on here about their rights and safety?

[K-W]

53. Stop changing the subject to other events.

Nobody is holding Israel to a higher standard that everyone else. We are holding them to the exact same standards of international law and human rights that we hold everyone to.

And if you want to awaken people to the plight of Jews in Arab nations go ahead, Im sure people here would be happy to learn about it. DU eats that stuff up, but in the meantime how about not telling other people what they should be activist about.

Meanwhile US taxmoney is bankrolling Israel, so that might explain the added concern.

[fujiyama]

69. Israel isn't being held to a higher standard?

Now, I'm certainly no apologist for the Likud government, but I rarely see the same passion devoted to other corrupt regimes around the world. The Sudanese government is responsible for ethnic cleansing, yet I rarely see the same anger devoted.

The Pakistani government recieves billions in military aid by our government, but I see little criticism of this policy.

This doesn't excuse Israel's crimes, but there is definetely a blind spot among many on the far left regarding Islamist terrorism and extremism.

[barb162]

76. "definetely a blind spot "

yes, it is evident here almost every day

[Behind the Aegis]

61. Answer.

"Why don't we have hundreds of activists posting on here about their rights and safety?"

Because most people don't care. The greedy Jews have Israel to go to! :sarcasm: (at least for now) (unfortunately, no :sarcasm: for this part of the statement.

[barb162]

52. It sounds like there was "brutal ethnic cleansing" going

on against BOTH Jews and Palestinians. Why are the Arabs so silent about what they did and so loud about the Palestinians. What's the diff? Let's face it, both peoples suffered terribly and were thrown out of their homes. Why is it all so one-sided against the Jews?

[Coastie for Truth]

55. Hint: See Mel Gibson's movie

A "high tech" Passion Play, like the Oberammergau Passion Play - in living color and surround sound - with Hollywood hype.

Hint 2: Read the Gospel According To John.

Hint 3: Do some serious academic study of the Council of Nice.

[barb162]

56. Do you mean the Council of Nicea 325AD?

(I wont be seeing that movie and I doubt if I will go back to reading the Bible.)

[Coastie for Truth]

57. Yes - Rev Forrest Church calls it the most divisive event in

Church History.

(I am usually in the process of reading or re-reading one of his books - but the one this week is on the Constitutinal Convention, "The Separation of Church and State" by Rev. Forrest Church -- and not Church history)

[barb162]

58. hmmm, I would have thought the most divisive event was the

Reformation. In any event I don't recall much about the Council of Nicea other than it was about the Trinity/ Arianism dispute. I will re-read also. Thanks

[Behind the Aegis]

63. Facts

"The brutal ethnic cleansing that immediately followed the creation of modern Israel is fact. Terrorism and massacres were used to instill fear in Palestinian populations in order to force them out of land desired by the modern Israeli state."

So too is it fact that brutal ethnic cleansing took place prior to Israel's birth in Europe and Arab countries. Then, it took place again, after the creation on Israel in Arab lands AGAIN! One ethnic cleansing does not erase another, but to turn a blind eye that it happened to Jews at the same time, is historically inaccurate.

[barb162]

48. I think it is sick and pathetic.

So many people here consider themselves uber liberal and/or progressive and then they do the bashing as you say. Oh yeah, it is overwhelming and when you argue with them about their pro Arab/anti Israel stance, then you're a freeptard. They will invariably prefer taking the side of intolerant, backward, anti-woman, religious radical, etc., societies in the Mideast, blame it all on the US or Israel and it is beyond patently ridiculous.

[Lecky]

59. I think it's pathetic when people can't look at both sides

of the argument objectively and only think in black and white. Don't know what you are whining about either, our entire government seems to be pro-Israel/anti-Palestine as far as our ME foreign policy is concerned. So please give it a fucking rest.

[barb162]

77. Well I don't know what you are whining about either

and please give whatever the hell it is you're trying to point out a fucking rest. Boring

[Violet_Crumble]

82. I'll point it out for you...

Criticism of Israel for the occupation or its policies towards the Palestinians isn't 'bashing' nor anti-semitic. People who tend to carry on about how Israel is held to a higher standard etc are doing that generally because they don't want to see any criticism of Israel.

[barb162]

95. Wouldn't it be nice to see all Mideast countries held to the same

standard. It will be interesting to see when the settlers are removed if the suicide bombings stop.

[Violet_Crumble]

99. Including Israel?

Not likely. And when you say 'when the settlers are removed' are you talking about the disengagement? Because there's this tiny little place called the West Bank where the settlements are not being removed (apart from four in the northern West Bank), and Sharon has been quite open in his statements that the major settlement blocs will not be removed...

Violet...

[Andromeda]

102. A large number of people who post on this board...

are not registered Democrats, or do not live in the U.S.

There are some leftists in the U.S. who are more sympathetic to the Palestinians and they view the Israelis as big, rich, greedy bullies who have no right to a country of their own and should be driven into the sea.

I'll never understand it.

[Behind the Aegis]

105. It doesn't matter

As long as they can hate Israel, all is good with their world. We should have sympathy for the plight of the Palestinian people, but not at the expense of another. The real issue comes down to that some are only pro-Palestinian because it allows them to be anti-Israeli. Israel is not perfect and NEVER will be.

Until they can see that dead innocent Israelis are as important as dead innocent Palestinians, then this 'ballet' will continue. But, don't hold your breath...dead Israelis are a good thing in their minds.

[Cocoa]

44. the right wing is always decrying the antisemitism in France

and in Europe (especially Old Europe) in general.

http://www.townhall.com/columnists/jeffjacoby/jj20040315.shtml

I wonder if they'll comment on this...

[funnymanpants]

60. What do you mean?

Jeff Jacoby is a propagandist and an editorialist for the right. He spread lies about Joe Wilson a while back, claiming that Wilson had admitted he was wrong. Wilson made no such admission, and it was a willful and deliberate misreading by Jacoby.

This article is simply hype. The anti-semitism in Eurpope is always exaggerated by the right in order to smear Europe, and to foment more sympathy for Isreale's expansionist policies.

What do you mean by posting him?

[Behind the Aegis]

62. Not true

"The anti-semitism in Eurpope is always exaggerated by the right in order to smear Europe, and to foment more sympathy for Isreale's (sic) expansionist policies."

Anti-Semitism is very real in Europe and a very real problem.

[Cocoa]

64. I'm questioning his sincerity

if he really cares about antisemitism, he will surely blast his beloved "New Iraq" for officially disenfranchising Jews, right?

But I'm predicting he won't.

[garthranzz]

66. It's threads like this...

that make it difficult to be a liberal. Ethnic cleansing by Israel? And there was no Holocaust, either. :sarcasm:

No, Israel's history isn't pure. No country's is. But the misdeeds must be put into perspective, and balanced against the positives. America has committed atrocities - against the Indians, against those who opposed the Revolution, against African-Americans, etc. On balance, though, this country has more positives than negatives. The history must be balanced, yes, but also without vituperation.

Are all of Israel's policies correct? Of course not? Does it have political problems, corruption, etc.? Of course. Can Israel be criticized? Again, of course.

But there is a critical difference between Israel and the Arab states, between Israel and the so-called Palestinians. Well, there's more than one, but this one suffices: Rabbis don't preach death to every Moslem on a weekly basis. Jewish (Israeli) children are not taught to hate every Arab and Moslem. Israeli KINDERGARTEN graduations don't feature blood-stained hands, rifles and pledges of suicide. Israelis don't target schoolchidren for execution. Israelis don't mutilate the bodies of the dead. Israel does not plan for the extermination of every Moslem or pushing every "palestinian" into the sea.

The truth is the Arab world, including (perhaps especially) those in Gaza, want Israel and the Jewish people - and make no mistake, to them there's no difference - to disappear. Israel would like to live in peace with its neighbors.

[barb162]

78. Welcome to DU

excellent post. You have nailed the intolerance of the Arab world on the head in your fourth paragraph. The fact that it shows up in a draft of a constitution indicates how widespread and deep it really goes.

[garthranzz]

112. Thanks

I've lurked and don't have time to post a lot, but I find this site invigorating.

:hi:

[Violet_Crumble]

85. Historical fact makes you ashamed to be liberal?

Of course there was ethnic cleansing of the Palestinians in 1948. Benny Morris' Birth of the Palestinian Refugee Problem Revisited is a good place for you to start...

In my opinion, pointing out that the Palestinians are 'so-called Palestinians', and making sweeping, incorrect and negative generalisations about them isn't a particularly liberal stance...

Violet...

[garthranzz]

113. Read my post more carefully, please

I didn't say I was ashamed to be a liberal. I said the anti-Semitic bigotry too often associated with "liberals" makes it sometimes difficult to be one. But I remain, even in a group of no-think Bushites with which I'm often surrounded, proud to be "castigated" as a liberal.

The term "ethnic cleansing" has a specific meaning and does not apply, if used properly, to what happened in 1948. Throughout the 75 years or so from the influx of Jews in the last quarter of the 19th century until the establishment of the state of Israel, one can point to atrocities on both sides, although the overwhelming number of them were committed by Arabs (and British) against the Jews.

But all that is irrelevant to the situation today, unless you're arguing for the total destruction of the state of Israel and a new Holocaust - the official position of the so-called Palestinian leadership and of the Islamic clergy. Israel has offered time and again to negotiate. It offered Arafat 98% of what he wanted. The response to every Israeli overture is terrorist attacks, homicidal bombings of innocents, mutilation of dead bodies, etc.

Arafat ruled like a Mafia thug. Instead of building an infrastructure, he built a criminal fiefdom and allowed Hamas etc. to run free.

One does not have to agree with every policy of Israel or every action of the IDF - I don't, for there's certainly much, way too much, to criticize - to recognize there's a fundamental difference betwen Israel and every Arab state (except perhaps Jordan) in their approach to the issues of peace, tolerance, etc.

[Violet_Crumble]

114. My mistake...

You said this thread made it hard to be liberal. Okay, so where are all the anti-semitic posts in this thread?

I know what the definition of ethnic cleansing is, and it does apply to what happened to the Palestinians during the war of 1948...

Why do you insist on putting the words 'so called' before Palestinian?

A few other corrections:

It is most definately not the official position of the Palestinian leadership to destroy Israel and commit some new Holocaust. Could you provide some credible (as in not raving anti-Arab/Muslim sites) that show where this is official policy of the PA?

Also, Israel has not offered time and time again to negotiate. For a very long time it refused totally to negotiate with the Palestinians, and it was only with Oslo that negotiations began...

The Palestinians were not offered 98% of what they wanted at Camp David.

Here's a visual version of what was 'offered', though the reality was that no written offer was ever made, and it was a 'take it or leave it' final 'offer' where other issues like the future of Jerusalem and the refugee issue would have been sidelined permanently.

Here's a much longer piece on what happened at Camp David. It's well worth reading and shows that neither the Israeli or Palestinian version of events were exactly true...

http://www.samed-syr.org/CampDavidAndTaba.pdf

As our discussion seems to have veered into the more general area of the conflict, I personally think the conflict is one where both sides can and should be criticised for actions they've taken...

Violet...

[Andromeda]

103. Welcome to DU, garthranzz...

:hi:

[Behind the Aegis]

65. Interesting...

The article is about JEWS and not ISRAEL; yet look at all the posts about ISRAEL. I guess some people DO interchange ISRAEL and JEWS. Mention JEWS, get rants about ISREAL. Makes you wonder.

[Hekate]

70. Jews have resided in Iraq since Abraham met Sarah

Sheesh, do these posters think Jews originated in Poland?

Hekate

[Behind the Aegis]

75. Many don't care.

The idea that they can disguise their hate of Jews behind hate for Israel is odious, but they enjoy the 'immunity.' Of course, not all are like that. Some are very astute in their disgust with ISraeli policies and make very good arguments and points. But, some are just so filled with disgust with any thing "Israeli," they easily conflate it with "Jews." Sad, indeed.

[Violet_Crumble]

74. Not really. Some people actually read other articles posted at DU...

Y'know, the ones that actually include the wording of the draft constition that refers to Israelis and not Jews...

But I'm quite aware that some at DU interchange Israel and Jews in order to act as though each and every criticism of Israel is anti-semitic. Lame and stuff, but all but a small number at DU seem to grasp that legitimate criticism of any state is not bigotry...

Violet...

[K-W]

83. Yah, I wonder how a thread about ethnic devides in the middle east

might reference Israel.

Its a real mystery to me.

[Behind the Aegis]

84. No mystery

Jews=Israel. Funny, some of us get accused of confusing that all the time, but when others do it, we are told they are only "anti-Israeli." Whatever!

[K-W]

86. If anyone had confused Jews and Israel, youd have a point.

The people referencing Israel were not confusing Jews and Israel. They were comparing state policies of Israel and Iraq.

I think you do have a valid criticism that some people are more eager to point out Israeli policy than to actually discuss the Iraqi policy, but that is a far cry from confusing Jews and Israel.

[Behind the Aegis]

87. But that is part of the problem...

This article is about Jews. So, why the comparisons with Israel, why not other nations that have done the same thing? The issue becomes anytime discussions about Jews being discriminated against or as victims, Israel and her policies are brought up. To me, it seems that when some people see "Jew" they automatically go to "Israel." Also, when the roles are reversed, and it is Israeli policy being questioned and we compare and contrast, we are chastised for "changing the subject."

This article is about constitutional discrimination against Jews, ALL Jews. So, why is comparing the policies of Israel fair game? Not all Jews are Israelis and vice-versa.

[K-W]

91. The article is about Iraqi law relating to Jews.

Making it rather obvious why someone might discuss the related laws of other nations in the region.

Like I said. You have a point that people are taking this as an opportunity to critisize Israel, but it has nothing to do with confusing Jews and Isreal, it is simply taking advantage of the topic of ethnic imigration laws in the region to critisize Israel.

[Behind the Aegis]

106. True, true

Some will NEVER pass up a chance to bad-mouth Israel. Israel is not without her faults, but for some it is open season. I bet I could post "Jews" in GD with nothing in the body of the text and people would launch into attacks on Israel...what does that tell you?

[Violet_Crumble]

101. Why haven't you pointed out that this article is incorrect?

The actual wording of that part of the draft constitution was in an article posted in the I/P forum in a thread that you participated in...

The draft of Iraq's new constitution specifically excludes Israelis from obtaining citizenship.

The document , updated July 20, says:


"Any individual with another nationality (except for Israel) may obtain Iraqi nationality after a period of residency inside the borders of Iraq of not less than ten years for an Arab or twenty years for any other nationality, as long as he has good character and behavior, and has no criminal judgment against him from the Iraqi authorities during the time of his residency on the territory of the Iraqi republic.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=124x96532

Not one mention of Jews there. As you said, not all Jews are Israelis...

Violet....

[Behind the Aegis]

104. The ACTUAL wording!

"explained that one paragraph of the draft says that "the Iraqi nationality is a right acquired by every Iraqi, which cannot be withheld for any reason and is the basis of his citizenship.""

""All those who have been deprived of their citizenship after 8 February 1963 have the right to recover it, as they have the right to multiple nationality," the draft continues."

"{he} pointed out that this rules out Iraq's Jews, who were forced to emigrate from the country before 8 February 1963,..."

[Violet_Crumble]

107. I posted the ACTUAL wording of the DRAFT CONSTITUTION...

In case you missed it, here it is again:

"The draft of Iraq's new constitution specifically excludes Israelis from obtaining citizenship.

The document , updated July 20, says:


"Any individual with another nationality (except for Israel) may obtain Iraqi nationality after a period of residency inside the borders of Iraq of not less than ten years for an Arab or twenty years for any other nationality, as long as he has good character and behavior, and has no criminal judgment against him from the Iraqi authorities during the time of his residency on the territory of the Iraqi republic."

Not one mention of Jews there, bta, and you posted prolifically in the earlier thread where the OP had the actual words of the draft constitution, yet you failed to point out to anyone in this thread that the draft constitution specifically discriminates against Israelis, not Jews. In fact, you come out with this comment that seems to be a response to some other draft constitution that says no Jews can become citizens by saying: 'This article is about constitutional discrimination against Jews, ALL Jews.' So, seeing you are claiming this is discrimination against ALL Jews, care to explain where in the actual wording of the draft constitution it actually says that? I just found it a bit strange that a few sentences later you point out: 'Not all Jews are Israelis and vice-versa.' So which is it, bta? Is the draft constitution discriminating against all citizens of Israel, and also discriminating against residents who have nationality of non-Arab countries, or is it discriminating against ALL Jews?

Violet...

[Name removed]

108. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Violet_Crumble]

109. How is posting the wording of the ACTUAL draft constitution twisting?

I posted what the draft actually said, and posed some questions for you to answer about the actual wording which refers to Israelis, not Jews. That the only response would be an accusation that I hate Israelis is pretty sad and offensive, imo...

Violet...

[Behind the Aegis]

110. You're right

I know nothing. I am sorry I have wasted your time. I am not worth the letters typed. I have failed my kind. Perhaps I shoud have been born much earlier, then I wouldn't have to bother you with my inane thoughts. I could have just breathed deep and....no problem. Sorry to have wasted your time.

[Violet_Crumble]

111. Stop it, bta...

Why can't you just discuss the issue without having to resort to the kind of behaviour you've been displaying in yr last two posts? What I'd like to see instead of that, is civil responses to my questions. Discussing an issue shouldn't be about banging heads, and it shouldn't be about being so closed to discussion that even the actual wording of the draft constitution is ignored in order to maintain the pretense that the draft constitution refers to Jews rather than Israelis...

If you'd like to pick up the discussion in a civil and constructive way, I'm more than happy to continue....

Violet....

[tishaLA]

94. I thought the same thing

I'm not sure why this thread has turned into a referendum on how Israel treats Palestinians.

[rocktivity]

90. If we have created a faith-based government, we have failed indeed

But I'm sure Bush doesn't see it that way--I'm sure he'd like to create a faith-based government in America, too.

:headbang:
rocknation

[Dr Fate]

97. Freedom is on the march. n/t

n/t

[Rex]

98. Freedom on the march!

Glad we can show the Iraqis how a Democracy works! :eyes: