Barricade or prison?

[Aidoneus]

nice how my first thread in this section has to be on so upbeat & cheery a subject..

Caged

When finished it will be 370 miles long and 10ft high, encircling almost the entire West Bank population. Israel claims the security fence is needed to protect its citizens from suicide bombers. But for the many thousands of Palestinians cut off from their work, fields and loved ones, it is part of an illegal land grab intended to drive them from their homes. Chris McGreal takes a drive along the 76-mile section already completed

Wednesday September 3, 2003
The Guardian

Baqa al-Sharqia's plight is much the same as that of a string of Palestinian villages severed from their lands or caged behind barbed wire under a large red sign in Hebrew and Arabic: "Mortal danger. Military zone. Any person who passes or damages this fence endangers his life." But the mayor dwells on a single, telling distinction. When Moayad Hussain faces Israel's vast new "security fence" toward the beginning of its meandering journey through the occupied territories - which the Israeli government envisages will end nearly 400 miles later with almost the entire Palestinian population encircled - he is not looking out from the West Bank but into it. The fence carving through Baqa al-Sharqia's olive groves places the village and its 4,000 Palestinian residents on the Israeli side of the wire.

"We have asked ourselves the same question many times," says Hussain. "If the fence is for security, if the fence is to keep us out, then why aren't we on the other side? With every kilometre of fence Sharon builds we are sure there is only one answer. This is not about security, it's about land and resources."

There are two ways to travel the 123 kilometres (76 miles) of the newly completed first section of what the Israelis used to call the "separation obstacle" - until they realised that smacked too much of apartheid and so renamed it the "security fence". You can drive its length on the Israeli side along a new motorway, straining to spot the fence on distant hilltops deep inside the West Bank. Or you can pursue a more tortuous route in the Palestinian territories along rutted tracks, tracing the barrier as it cages villages, slices through olive groves and brings once busy roads to a jarring halt in front of the ominous warning signs.

--snip--

A short drive east of Qalqilya, the gates are open in Jayyous where the fence runs between the village and valuable agricultural lands and greenhouses. But some of the locals are so convinced that one day the Israelis will lock them, they choose to sleep with their vegetables. As in Baqa al-Sharqia, residents can only think of one explanation for the route of the fence. Both villages have not only some of the West Bank's most fertile land but an equally precious commodity in a parched region - water. They sit atop the western aquifer basin which produces about half of all the water on the West Bank. But while the fence can easily divide the land and aquifers from the village in Jayyous, in Baqa al-Sharqia it's a different story. "It's hard to separate our village from the wells, so they've put us all on the Israeli side of the wire," says Moayad Hussain, the mayor. "Water is almost as important to them as land so they have to take us, but they are already making life difficult in the hope we will go away."

Come toward Qalqilya from the other side of the wall, and instead of the rutted track the Palestinians use, there is a fine new highway. But this road is "sterile"; Palestinians are banned from it. Turn east, skirt around the outside of the wall and near the petrol station is the sign for Alfei Menashe. For a while, its 5,000 Jewish settlers thought they were going to be on the same side of the barrier as Qalqilya. Near panic set in until the army came up with a new route that put the settlement comfort ably inside the Israeli side of the fence. But while the settlers have far-right ministers in Sharon's cabinet to argue their case, the Palestinians are denied even the basic protection of the courts. Israeli judges have refused to block construction of the fence or order it rerouted, on the grounds that it is a security issue and therefore the military can do as it pleases.

--snip--

http://www.guardian.co.uk/israel/Story/0,2763,1034483,00.html

[Flying_Pig]

1. An apartheid barrier. ........

Nothing more. Nothing less. Israel's Likud Party, is the party of apartheid. Witness, the report out today (posted on DU) from one of their own investigative commissions, detailing the racism and brutality present in Israel now.

The citizens of Israel have voted in the Likud party, who have instituted these policies, and built "the wall". They share responsibility for the actions of their government. We in the U.S. must also share, by virtue of the support (financial and military) the present administration gives Likud policies. Therefore, it is OUR wall to. We are helping to build it, by supporting a fascist thug like Sharon.

Funny, how we celebrate the tearing down of some walls (Berlin), while helping to build others. Personally, I am ashamed that my government supports these actions.

[Fight_n_back]

2. I have a question

does this wall extend across the borders of Syria and Jordan? Or does it only run along the border of Israel and the West Bank?

I'll take my answer off the air.

[Aidoneus]

3. <shrug>

don't see how the Syrian border fits in.

[Fight_n_back]

4. shrug

actually no..because I know how to read a map. I think if San Quentin had three sides not walled it would be an imperfect prison.

[Violet_Crumble]

5. Syria?

Uh, what's Syria got to do with Israel building a wall deep inside the Occupied Territories? Do you approve of the path the wall's taking?

Violet...

[Muddleoftheroad]

6. The path

The path the wall is taking is a form of negotiation. No competent Palestinian leadership has attempted to stop it by the means that they have available, which is to stop the terrorism of Hamas and Islamic Jihad, et al.

Walls can be built. Walls can be torn down, replaced and moved. But lacking an official, responsible Palestinian leadership, Israel has established a border that is acceptable to it only.

[Violet_Crumble]

7. A form of negotiation???

Building a wall on territory that doesn't belong to Israel is most definately not a form of negotiation. What it is is a cynical land-grab that shows no concern for the thousands of lives its causing huge disruptions for....


And could you explain to me exactly how you think any Palestinian leadership can stop Hamas etc when all the might of the Israeli military hasn't been able to succeed? Maybe if Israel spent a bit less time building walls on territory that doesn't belong to it and stopped causing so many civilian deaths in their little 'incursions' and spent a bit more time honestly trying to do their bit to stop the oppression that would see any official, responsible leadership that suited you to be branded as collaborators, then maybe there'd be a solution that didn't involve so much suffering and death...

Violet...

[Muddleoftheroad]

8. Land

ALL of the land in discussion is under Israeli control. Where it builds walls for self defense is, lacking a viable Palestinian leadership, entirely up to Israel. The wall achieves two aims. It provides scurity and, ideally, forces the Palestinians to see that they are losing the battle for land and must settle on peace.

No leadership, Israeli or Palestinian can totally stop the wacko terror elements. However, an organized Palestinian leadership assault on such groups -- including hunting, jailing and killing them -- would cut down on the problem.

The Palestinian people need one military and governmental voice. Until they have it, their place in the world will be chaos.

[Fight_n_back]

21. That may be true

but it doesn't make it a prison.

It is a unilateral move and therefore won't work. It gets extra land for Israel. It isn't a prison or concentration camp. People will be free to go into Syria or Jordan if they wish.

Things cacn be bad on their own merits without hyperbolizing them into the land of the rediculous.

The funniest thing about what passes for debate today is the initial knne jerk response that is the same on the every issue save subject and predicate.

I say something like "Barry Bonds is a fine ballplayer" and you respond with "So your saying Babe Ruth sucked?".

My statement that the wall is not a prison does not in anyway indicate support for said wall. It indicates support for reasonable discussion.

[Aidoneus]

9. occupied land is not "negotiable"

was Kuwait as "negotiable" too, or were the wrong slogans not chanted endlessly enough to surrealistically spin that into being acceptable?

Thousands of acres more land must be stolen because the Palestinians don't have enough of a total quisling jailer (though the top pets vigorously compete for such a role).. I'm glad these arguments at least make sense to somebody, if not me.

[Muddleoftheroad]

10. Not Kuwait

The West Bank is not Kuwait. It was not a nation before 1967 and its previous administrators -- Jordan, Britain or even Turkey -- don't want it back.

[Aidoneus]

11. wholly irrelevant

either seizing land in aggressive wars is wrong--personally, the stance I generally take--, or it's just wrong sometimes, and is actually quite tolerable through combination of the proper PR moves.

[Muddleoftheroad]

12. Wrong sometimes

Well, clearly the world takes the wrong sometimes approach. Ask the Chinese about Tibet or the Syrians about Lebanon and then get back to me.

[Aidoneus]

13. I'm not talking about the world

the different ruling groups in the world tend to scratch each others' backs in that regard. Thankfully they're not here right now, to hell with most of them anyway, I was actually asking you there (indirectly noted maybe? my fault for ambiguity)..

[Muddleoftheroad]

14. Now define aggressive wars

Because I sure as hell don't consider wars of self defense to be such. So 1967 is NOT an aggressive war on the side of Israel.

[Aidoneus]

15. well, put simply "aggressive war"="crossing borders first"

I don't see that specific and key/defining point as really debateable (perhaps some of the finer points of the befores/afters).. but I'm experienced enough here with this familiar routine to know that this is now entering a futile phase of the exercise (my memory is hazy on our possible past discussions on this exact matter, maybe we've gone through it before already), so I guess our conversation ends abruptly here against this fairly solid seperation wall (ironic, perhaps..) of different interpretations of things.

[Muddleoftheroad]

16. I do

That gives your enemy carte blanche to prepare an attack and you have to sit there and wait for it. No sane person would do that.

[The Magistrate]

17. This Construction, Mr. Muddle, Is More Than A Security Barrier

It would be legitimate for Israel to contruct such a barrier along its recognized borders, with perhaps a several hundred yards of "dead zone" extending east to render infiltrator's approach to it more difficult. That is not what is being done. The western line of the barrier is extending to include many settlements, and its proposed entirity would enclose many areas to the east that are currently still excluded from Palestine Authority control.

These latter things are not Israeli territory in any legal sense. Israel has no legal claim to the lands overrun in '67; it has only a presence achieved by force of arms, that no power is capable or willing to contest. The character of the conflict in which this status was achieved is immaterial. The lands in question were allocated by the United Nations partition to the Arab Zone, and as that partition is the basis for legitimacy of the Israeli state, it ought not be to eager to set aside its fundamental intentions, lest it weaken its own status.

[Gimel]

19. Points out the difficulties

The incredible problems that arise when the two peoples are going through a "divorce". Where exactly is the "green line" and where exactly is the appropriate, yet undeclared border? Are settlers whose communities exceed 25 or 30 years in age allowed to remain where the are? Will the border zig-zag to include Arab villiges on one side and Jews on the other? It is all but impossible. Security would be an incorrect term for a fence that left Jewish Israeli people within the Palestinian areas, even though they are adjacent to the green line. Then it would be errecting a border fence. This has never been the intention or the claim of the Israeli government.

The result would be islands of Israeli citizens within the Palestinian state, and islands of Palestinians within the Jewish state. This brings out the elemental problems that the Israeli liberals Benvenisti and Hanegbi raised in a recent article posted on this forum. This elemental difficulty is present in security matters, intermarriage, employment and almost every other area of concern and human endeavor.

[Fight_n_back]

24. That may be true

but the premise of the thread is that it is a prison or concentration camp. That isn't true in the slightest.


If San Quentin were open on three sides it would be a most ineffiecient prison.

[StandWatie]

25. it wont be..

[Fight_n_back]

26. But then again

it may....

[Aidoneus]

27. a bigger version of the 2nd map above that you seem to be ignoring

Qalqilyah on this and Tulkarm/other proposed "enclaves" from the other being most striking..

[StandWatie]

28. I believe Qalqilyah plans have been scraped

presumbably Ariel will be evacuated but until it is Qalqilyah remains in the "maybe" category.

[Aidoneus]

29. ah

read a couple vague bits about them changing their minds about a couple parts of it, but didn't notice what except the Ariel part, is there a more recent map made?

[tinnypriv]

39. There isn't a more recent map

The latest information is that Qalqilya will stay the same as it is now (enclosed, one access point), and Ari'el will be on the eastern side of the wall.

However, according to Ma'ariv, the IDF is working on a contingency plan for Ari'el. They're going to use smaller fences seperate from the main wall to make it into a Jewish enclave, with road access etc. Also, it won't be under PA authority.

I don't think there is one word about the above plan in english anywhere (and I've looked pretty hard). Whether it will be implemented or not, who knows.

[Proudlib]

18. I'll Make A Deal

I'll trade you the tearing down of the wall, which is an inanimate object, if you give me back the lives of all of the deliberately targeted Israeli civilians who died as the result of suicide and other forms of bombing attacks that originated from the West Bank since 2000.

Seems like a fair enough deal to me.

[StandWatie]

22. is there any limit there?

Say Israel was to propose killing all the first born males, or impaling Palestinians en masse as collective punishment. I swear to god, I believe if they did this people here would chime in about suicide bombers.

[legin]

20. I been a bit slow on this subject

I really only saw for the first time where the wall is going to go when I bought the Gaurdian today and read this article which contained a map.

It's a joke, it's so utterly ridiculous. Build the wall on the green line and I could just about live with it, but this ! It must be a joke because if it isn't it's an act of war.

[legin]

23. I seen my local council in action

and I have a saying:
"The council when involved in a dispute situation will act in a way that makes the dispute last as long as possible."

I assume it gives them something to do, some manufatured pseudo issue to keep their 'brains' ticking over.

And this is exactly the same.

It's a complete fucking piss-take.

[Muddleoftheroad]

30. You would be OK

But the Palestinians are another matter. To the extremist groups, the existence of Israel is at issue and the Green Line is a ruse. It doesn't matter where Israel built this wall, it would be controversial. The rest of the world sees it as if Israel is giving up that it can find peace with the Palestinians.

It is and it has good reason to.

We can argue all day about the path of the wall, but no matter where it was built, there would be many who opposed it. The real issue is the need for the wall. Lacking a partner in peace that will shut down the terror groups, Israel has no choice but to wall off its enemies.

[StandWatie]

31. wall in it's enemies you mean

whatever you think about caging them in (and if you don't think this is what they are doing you haven't noticed that it happened in Gaza years ago) at least be honest enough to admit that the security of Israeli's is so important that jailing an entire population in a ghetto is necessary.

[Muddleoftheroad]

32. Not jailing

That population just has no particular right to enter Israel -- ever. That right is decided by Israel. If the Palestinians want to leave the West Bank, let them go to Jordan.

[StandWatie]

33. and never come back right?

in other words: "transfer"

[Muddleoftheroad]

34. Transfer?

How can you transfer someone who isn't there? That's not transfer, that's recognition of current citizenship. No Israeli Arabs are being transferred, just Palestinians not being allowed in.

Every nation has a right to set immigration and citizenship requirements.

[StandWatie]

35. they don't have citizenship

Palestinians have an Israeli ID with the spot on nationality left blank and if you think they are going to let people come and go from Jordon or Egypt at will you are working on an absolutely incorect assumption.

[Gimel]

36. Perhaps you are from lebanon

To the best of my knowledge, Palestinians do not have Israeli ID cards, and not with the "Nationality" left blank. There is no Nationality entry on Israeli ID cards. That is absurd.

Palestinians have PA IDs. Even Arabs living in Jerusalem do not have Israeli ID cards.

Since Camp David in 1980, Israelis have been allowed to travel in Egypt (prior to that the same as saudi Arabia and Syria). I don't know if the "at will" part includes a visa and passport check. Israelis can also travel to Jordan now, only in the last few years. Some Jordanians have visited Israel also.

[StandWatie]

37. if you say so..

LAD virtually turned the Palestinian inhabitants of the WB to stateless persons and since 1988, the Jordanian authorities have issued special Jordanian passports for the Palestinian inhabitants of the WB. The passport is of a temporary nature and is better described as a passport of convenience valid between 2-5 years defined by the Jordanian authorities as a travel document which does not give its holder right of abode, secure residency in Jordan or full social and economic rights.

The Palestinian inhabitants of the Israeli occupied territories of 1967 that include the WB and GS were classified by the Israeli authorities not as citizens but rather as residents of the territories and issued them with Israeli identity cards (ID). If they breach visa restrictions, Palestinian holders of the Israeli ID are almost certain to have it annulled, not be allowed back to their place of residence, and consequently lose their secure residency in the WB and GS. They have to have an exit visa valid for 6 months or 3 years, depending on their point of exit (6 months for flying from Ben Gurion airport, 3 years for land border crossings.) Those who exceed their stay outside the country lose their ID and are consequently refused re-entry. Thousands of Palestinian inhabitants of the WB and GS lost their right to come back to their country in this way. This category of people is called the ' late comers'. Their fate was discussed among other groups in the peace talks but up to now the Israeli authority has refused to give them back their ID.

The Israeli measures which drove many inhabitants of the WB and GS to lose their ID, were ceased as a result of signing the peace agreement (DoP), but only applied to those who were already living in the WB or GS, and not those who had already been deprived of their ID. One may say that this is one of the main achievements of the peace agreement, which put an end to about three decades of practice that led to administrative expulsion of the Palestinians who live in the occupied territories.

While Mr X was on the receiving end of Jordanian LAD and Israeli measures, he is not one of those who are eligible to benefit from the peace agreement (DoP) as he certainly lost his ID in breach of the visa restrictions while living abroad. In summary, Mr X will not be considered a Jordanian citizen and might face criminal prosecution if he travels with what you say is a false Jordanian passport, nor will he be allowed back to the WB were the Israeli authorities are still the sole party which decides on issuing IDs, i.e. in order to allow Palestinians back to live in territories directly under Israel control or in territories under the control of the Palestinian Authority PA.

http://www.shaml.org/projects/advocacy/Question.htm

[Gimel]

44. An undated letter

As this obviously refers to a situation in 1991, the only date noted in the letter, it is impossible to know what era this relates to. Furthermore, that Israel issued ID cards to residents of the territories does not mean that they have the standard Israeli ID card.

Since the Washington agreement between Hussein and Rabin in July 1994, and the Oslo agreements of May 1994 offical recognition of the PA government was underway. Any ID carrds issued in 91 would obviously need to be updated and replaced with PA cards.

[Darranar]

40. Nothing is better than this wall...

in other words, I would prefer no wall to this wall.

[tinnypriv]

41. Give it up

Muddle doesn't actually support this wall, so it pointless to argue with him/her about it.

Muddle supports Israel building this wall. If Israel was building a 500 billion 5000ft bouncy castle in the middle of Times Square it would have his/her support. If it wasn't building a wall it would have his/her support.

Just follow this formula:

a) Is Israel doing it?

Answer:

Yes - Muddle supports it.
No - Muddle doesn't support it.

The verbal gymnastics being used in this thread are a sideshow to that underlying principle. If you want to debate, IMO you'd be better off debating the principle.

[Darranar]

42. Interesting formula...

but I once followed that formula, and my opinions changed because people showed me how some of Israel's actions were completely immoral and unjust. Perhaps there's still hope for Muddle.

[tinnypriv]

43. Personally

I find Muddle infinitely more reasonable than a lot of people.

But that is just my opinion, so I see no reason for you (or anyone) to take that seriously.

Speaking of which, Muddle started a very good thread recently in an attempt to provoke useful discussion. Sadly, it didn't get much traction in General Dis before it was uncerimoniously dumped in here. Nevertheless, the intent was there.

Anyway, anyone who opposes the lunacy of Bush has at least 1 plus point on their side in my book B-)

[Muddleoftheroad]

52. au contrair

Lacking a Palestinian leadership that will take on the terrorists, I DO support building a wall. I would have chosen a different path personally, but I do support its creation. I don't see any other alternatives.

So, NO, I don't support the current path. But there ae two options right now. The current path or no wall, so I choose the current path. Again, mine would have more closely resembled the Green Line, but it would not have been exact.

Now a quick question, what is a "bouncy castle?" It sounds cool. Hell I might drive to New York to see it. So maybe I would support it.

[Darranar]

54. No wall is better than this wall.

n/t

[Name removed]

55. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Muddleoftheroad]

57. Castles in the sky

Actually, if Israel or anybody else wants to build a huge one of those in Time Square, I am all for it. Hell I'd go to the grand opening.

I support a wall. If the Palestinians want to build it for Israel instead, I'd still support it. Not because it is being done BY Israel, but because I see no other choice FOR Israel.

Yes, I chose door #2 because there are only two doors right now. I make no bones about being a Zionist. I am one. I believe in the existence of Israel as a homeland for the Jewish people. As such, I want it to survive and not suffer endless terror attacks. But, as you noted, I'd prefer a third door, which shows I am NOT in lockstep with Israeli leadership. I simply prefer them to their enemies.

However, what you choose to leave out is that I also support a Palestinian state. Not a bogus non-entity like Netanyahu would create, but a real state with no limits. The geography, timing, etc. of such state would need to be negotiated with the first Palestinian leadership peace-loving enough to go after the damn terrorists.

[Jim Sagle]

58. Muddle ROCKS!

[eablair3]

38. Building a Mighty Ghetto State

Building a Mighty Ghetto State

"First of All This Wall Must Fall"
By URI AVNERY

This slogan was born spontaneously, opposite the Wall in Kalkiliya, at the place where it becomes a fence and turns east, penetrating deep into Palestinian territory. On the other side of the wall the Palestinians were demonstrating. We were looking for a short rhyme to broadcast by megaphone. A common effort brought forth the seven words that carry the whole message.

snip

That is what's so special about this Wall: it is inhuman. The planners have completely ignored the existence of (non-Jewish) human beings. They took into account hills and valleys, settlements and bypass roads. But they totally ignored the Palestinian neighborhoods and villages, their inhabitants and their fields. As if they did not exist.

snip

Yasser Arafat told me this week that Abu-Mazen, on his recent visit to the United States, showed President Bush a map of the Wall. Bush was shocked. He shook the map before the Vice President, Dick Cheney, and cried: "What's this? Where is the Palestinian State?"

By its very existence the wall seems to express power. It announces: "We are mighty. We can do whatever we want. We shall imprison the Palestinians in little enclaves and cut them off from the world." But that is make-believe. In reality, the Wall expresses ancient Jewish fears. In the Middle Ages, the Jews surrounded themselves with walls in order to feel safe, long before they were obliged to live in ghettoes.

A State that surrounds itself with a Wall is nothing but a ghetto-state. A strong ghetto, for sure, an armed ghetto, a ghetto that frightens everybody in the neighborhood, - but a ghetto, nevertheless, that feels save only behind walls and barbed wire and watchtowers.

snip

http://www.counterpunch.org/

http://www.counterpunch.org/avnery09032003.html

[Proudlib]

45. What, No Takers?

I thought it was a fair enough deal. I was willing to trade the wall for the lives of the innocent Israeli civilians who were deliberately targeted and murdered by suicide and other forms of bombers and no one was willing to take me up on it. Oh well. I guess we'll just have to have the wall.

"But Proudlib", the supporters of the Palestinians will say, "it's a prison, it's horrible, it makes life so hard for the Palestinians."

Well, boo hoo. I'm sure the loved ones of all of the Israelis who were murdered as part of the barbaric campaign of bombings will be reeealllly sorry to here how inconvenienced the Palestinians are. There is a price to pay for a wave of terror against the civilian population of Israel and that price is the wall. If the Palestinian leadership is that freaking upset about it, they should have thought about the consequences of their glorifying the suicide bombers, and inabling and facilitating the organizations who planned the attacks.

But if I have learned anything from this forum, apparently it is not progressive or liberal for a nation to do anything to fight terrorist organizations. Many of the people here are more upset about how Israel fights terrorists than they are the actions of the terrorists that precipitated the Israeli response. Maybe the IDF should just start blowing up buses, discos, banquet halls and resteraunts full of Palestinian civilians rather than build a fence. Based on what I've read here, the former seems far more acceptable than the latter.

[StandWatie]

46. I liked the wall..

my pragmatic solution was always a unilateral wall built somewhere very near the green line possibly with a suspended bridge leading to Gaza.

You apparently haven't seen the thing even though there are three maps right here in this thread. What they are building is a walled in ghetto and if they were Jews in there you would howl like a scalded cat, but if there is one thing I've learned in this forum some animals are more equal than others.

[Proudlib]

47. A Ghetto?

Only if the Palestinians make it one. Perhaps if the Palestinians put half as much effort into creating a country (their own) as they do destroying another (Israel) then whether or not they can move freely to and fro to Israel will not be an issue. It's not Israel's fault that the PA would rather spend millions on arms (the Karin A if you forgot about that) than making the lives of its people better.

And like I said above, tough noogies. Go tell the loved ones of all of those blown up Israelis about how terrible it is that Israel is building a wall. I'm sure they'd love to hear it.

[StandWatie]

48. complete indoctrination

it's astounding.

I'm sure if you rattle off some more Palestinian atrocities you can justify building ghetto's. I'm sure that would be your reaction to anything Israel did to Palestinians.

[Proudlib]

49. Like I Said

It's only a "ghetto" if that's what the Palestinians make it.

The wall is proof that an uncivilized barbaric campaign of slaughter targeting innocent Israelis will mean loss for the Palestinian people. It was not Israel's idea to send those bombers nor was it Israel's to glorify them. And if the Palestinians are worse off as a result of their deliberate targeting of Israeli civilians, well look in the mirror. No one told you to do it.

Next time, rather than choosing the most uncivilized barbaric way of achieving their goals, perhaps the Palestinian leadership and those who support the terrorists can pick a more progressive liberal means of getting what they want.

Unless deliberately targeting Israeli civilians and killing them in the most violent method the terrorists can drum up is somehow progressive and liberal. From what I read here, you'd think it is given that these acts don't garner a fraction of the outrage than building a wall or destroying some trees does.

[StandWatie]

50. "uncivilised"

They deserve it.

I've heard this one before.

[tinnypriv]

53. Give it up

This sort of stuff isn't even from the amen corner. This is the lunatic corner.

You don't get this sort of nonsense even from guys like Avigdor L. They at least have the minimal decency to sugar-coat their reactionary POV.

[userdave2061]

74. Civilized means not allowing hamas to exist in your country

No excuses.

[Violet_Crumble]

77. Civilised means not allowing Al Qaeda cells to operate in yr country...

There. That excludes the US from any list of civilised countries. Oops, and there goes Israel as well for allowing state-sponsored terrorists to exist in their country. Hey, by the time we're done here, there isn't going to be a single civilised country left!!


Violet...

[Gimel]

65. Wait and see

There is always the "wait and see" attitude. If the wall brings peace, I'm for it. If not, "I'm against and I awlays told you so."

By the way, what's the difference between a walled in Palestinian state (that is entity) and an Israel surrounded by enemies what an Israeli cannot enter (except for the sea, of course. The blessed sea. That's always a route of escape)?

[Darranar]

51. That's collective punishment...

You support collective punishment?

[Fight_n_back]

56. upon further review

yeah, the wall is pretty fucked up.

I never read about Sharon's March 18th comments about closing the two ends of the wall. Its a ghetto.

[Violet_Crumble]

60. Okay, I can totally agree with you on something...

My problem has always been not with the wall itself (though I'd question how much it's costing to provide what might turn out to be not particularly effective security for what should be a short-term fix), but the path the wall takes. What's happening makes sense considering Sharon was so vehemently opposed to the wall when Barak first brought it up and planned for it to run along the Green Line and to evacuate the settlements. Now he gets some mega-souped-up version of the wall that's obviously meant to be there for the long haul and in reality will do nothing to give Israel the security it needs...

Violet...

[StandWatie]

62. it will be very effective

Israel has walls on the Lebanese border and the Gaza strip and since their construction the infiltration rate is 0.000%

[Fight_n_back]

64. We agree on almost everything

you just can't get out of your own way long enough to see that

[Jim Sagle]

59. In summation, the wall rocks and this thread sucks.

[Violet_Crumble]

61. In summation, this thread rocks and the wall sucks...

And as usual, you've added exactly what you usually add to any thread you drop in on, which is about the same as dropping a load of cow manure on a pile of people discussing something in-depth and thinking you've added something to it that'll make it grow and flourish...

Violet...

[Flying_Pig]

63. It seems Sagle says the same thing about any...

thread, that does not present Israel/Likud in glowing terms. What really sucks, is Sagle's support for things like "The Wall", and his abbreviated, negative verbage on complex issues of great importance. Of course, it's always easier just to call"poo-poo" on something, and then run off....

[userdave2061]

73. Better than ignoring the hamas elephant in the living room

Hamas must go or no peace is possible.

[Darranar]

79. And...

Sharon must go or no peace is possible.

[TheYellowDog]

66. The fence is the most brilliant idea

Israel has had in a long time. I commend Sharon.

[Darranar]

67. Wrecking thousands of Palestinian lives is a brilliant idea? n/t

[TheYellowDog]

68. They have surely wrecked the lives of

Israelis enough.

[Violet_Crumble]

69. And how have they done that?

Darranar is talking about the thousands of Palestinians who will have their lives made intolerable by that wall. How exactly have these people wrecked the lives of Israelis? And even if they had, though I'm not into labelling all Palestinians as terrorists, would that be an excuse for Israel to turn around and wreck their lives in return?

Violet...

[TheYellowDog]

70. Why should I care?

I have enough things to think about.

[Darranar]

71. if you don't care...

why do you post on this forum?

[Violet_Crumble]

76. Because everyone should care about civilians caught up in conflicts...

Of course some folk aren't multi-skilled and let thinking about what's for dinner or what movie to go see next distract them from thinking about the suffering of civilians....

Violet...

[userdave2061]

72. By allowing hamas and other terrorists to move freely among them

There is no excuse for allowing murderers to live among decent people.

[tinnypriv]

75. I agree

Are you American?

Go arrest Kissinger please.

[Violet_Crumble]

78. Nooooo!!!

Userdave's had long enough to do something about the murderers living in his midst. Now I think it's time that we turn up, give him a few minutes notice to get out of his house, get the biggest bulldozer we can find and demolish it, and then finally build a huge fucking wall where his house used to be and when he complains, we'll tell him to stop snivelling and remind him that *There is no excuse for allowing murderers to live among decent people.* and ever so helpfully give him a link to his own post where he uttered those immortal words ;)

Violet...