Do you still believe that Flight 77 hit the Pentagon?

[Woody Box]

That's perfectly okay. (I don't, by the way.)

But if you believe that, it's axiomatic you believe this fairy tale here, too (tale teller: Thomas Kean & co):

8:56 Flight 77's signal vanished from the radar screens of Indianapolis Center completely. The transponder was turned off, and the controllers lost the primary target because of poor radar coverage in the area.

That's okay so far.

9:05 The radar blip of Flight 77 re-appears on the screens. But the controllers miss it because they are looking east (along the projected path of Flight 77), not west.

First kindergarten alert: An unknown radar blip without data tag emerges, but the controllers miss it!?! It is their job NOT to miss such kind of irregularities!

9:10 Flight 77, still undetected by the Indianapolis Center, crosses the border to Washington Center. But here also, the controllers don't notice the radar blip because they are "not told to look" for primary radar targets.

Second kindergarten alert: for 22 minutes, Washington controllers let an unknown object cross their airspace heading towards Washington!?! IN THIS SITUATION? Both towers hit by planes, and the controllers don't bother an unidentified aircraft???

9:21 The FAA Command Center issues an order to several FAA field facilities to look for Flight 77. Washington Center surely belonged to these facilities.

Third kindergarten alert: now the controllers KNOW that an airliner is missing, but they still don't check their screens properly.

9:32 Finally, controllers from Dulles Airport detect a "primary radar target tracking eastbound".

Finally, no alert; finally, some controllers who simply do their job.


It's not just the physical evidence withstanding the scenario that Flight 77 hit the Pentagon.

It's the fact that Flight 77 vanished from the radar screens at 8:56 and was not observed by one single controller until 9:32. Ho can we be sure that this plane was the same that vanished 36 minutes before?

Here are some diagrams. The eastbound path of Flight 77 is "estimated":

Washington Post:

http://a188.g.akamaitech.net/f/188/920/15m/www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/nation/graphics/hijack091101.htm

USA Today:



Original Flight Explorer Diagram:

[Bolo Boffin]

1. You have no concept of how the ATC screens work in this country, woody.

n/t

[Woody Box]

2. What has your answer to do you with my post? n/t

n/t

[Bolo Boffin]

4. Find the dot without a label, woody.

Quick! Two minutes ago the second plane crashed into the South Tower! Where is it? Where is it?

[leftofthedial]

8. you mean flight 77 was monitored by russian flight controllers?

:shrug:

[mirandapriestly]

25. Wow these octs are so smart.nt

[DoYouEverWonder]

3. Too bad Flight 93 left a half hour late

It screwed up the whole schedule.

A half hour of flight time is a lot to lose. The only way for that to happen is if the equipment was no longer in the air. What replaced it, who knows?

How long does it take to switch a transponder?

[sgsmith]

5. My, My, My

You certainly don't have any clue how ATC works, now do you Woody? Since you're big on the "kindergarten" comments, I'll comment that you're rather childish in your insistence in talking about something you have no personal experience in, other than for you to say "I'm right and you're wrong".

ATC works in multiple layers, with differing amounts of information displayed. High level enroute centers show the data tags that are associated with the Mode-S transponder on an airplane. Since they're working tagged aircraft, other information is not displayed on the scopes. Low level and terminal controllers are more likely to have additional aircraft shown, but even then they're likely to let the computers that interpret the radar information to display only what they're expecting to see. Since ATC, in general, works IFR flights, or VFR that are participating in the system by squawking 1200, that's what the equipment displays. Untagged returns may not even be displayed by the computers.

If I recall correctly, the raw radar information was reviewed and Flight 77 was tracked by skin paints from when the transponder was turned off until crash. (I will admit that this may pertain to flight 93.)

[Bolo Boffin]

6. It was definitely Flight 77, sgsmith.

From takeoff to crashing, Flight 77's primary radar return is trackable in the evidence from the day.

[BuddyYoung]

7. One little problemo, bolo: BTS records show no such FL 77 on 9/11.

You know that, of course. It's been common knowledge in the 911 research community for how many years?

[Bolo Boffin]

9. Esa declaración no tiene sentido. Ningún texto.

[KJF]

10. FOIA

An FOIA request has been filed (by 911myths) for the “Flight Path Study - American Airlines Flight 77” document mentioned in the 9/11 CR. Frankly, I think this sort of stuff should be made available as a matter of course and I'm sure there will be an argument over whether it's genuine or not if and when it emerges (they've certainly had time to fake it), but it'll be nice to see it all the same.

Re skin paint: United 175 didn't turn it's transponder off, United 93 and American 11 were tracked in real time by ATC - because the controllers knew something funny was up before the transponder went off - and American 77's path was allegedly recorded, but not displayed because of a software error.

[BuddyYoung]

11. What proof is there that FL 77 was scheduled & did take off on 9-11?

Doesn't the U.S. Department of Transportaion keep records of scheduled flights, what their scheduled lft-off time is, actual departure time and so on? Do the records back up the CT'ers claims that AA FLight 77 was a scheduled flight on 9/11, and if so, what time did it lift off?

What is the CT'er position of the implications that FL 77 wasn't scheduled for 9/11? Is there a fall-back position that allows the Official CT cover story to somehow still be operative if no such flight took place on 9/11?

[KJF]

12. BTS database

Link: http://www.bts.gov/programs/airline_information/airline_ontime_statistics/

United registered flights 175 and 93. American didn't register its two planes.

[BuddyYoung]

13. Does the link provide proof that FL 77 was scheduled on 9/11, or did

you hope that maybe people would see the words "BTS database" in the subject line and assume that it contains proof that FL 77 was scheduled on 9/11?

[KJF]

14. What part of...

... "American didn't register its two planes" didn't you understand?

[BuddyYoung]

24. What part of the BTS records prove FL 77 was scheduled on 911?

You know why I'm asking you to provide proof that FL 77 flew on 9/11.
If it was a scheduled flight and in fact did, there would be a record of it. There is none. What part of that important FACT don't you (want to) understand, or should I say "admit"?

[KJF]

26. Interest

You expressed an interest in BTS records, so I gave you a link. What's with the aggression?

[BuddyYoung]

28. Your facts are wrong. I asked for any proof FL 77 was scheduled for 911

You know as well as I do that it wasn't scheduled and that's why you can't possibly provide any proof to the contrary.

[KJF]

29. Knock it off with the...

... "you know as well as I do" crap.

Which of my facts are you saying was wrong?

[BuddyYoung]

30. AA FL 77 was not scheduled to fly on 911 according to the records.

It's okay for you to continue responding, because thanks to so many dedicated OCT'ers, there are still people right here at DU that are unaware of the important fact that AA FL 77 didn't crash at or into the Pentagon on 911 for the simple reason that there was no such flight scheduled on 911 and there are no records of such a flight having taken off from Dulles airport on that date.

[KJF]

31. I don't believe you

And I'm not really interested either.

[BuddyYoung]

33. Reject the truth if you wish, but wouldn't it be better to accept it?

After all, if AA FL 77 wasn't scheduled to fly on 911 and didn't, then that kinda sorta, you know, calls into question whether or not what the public has been told about 911 is a great big ol fat LIE (or fairy tale, if you prefer the kinder, gentler, more compassionate description).

As a synoptic CT'er, maybe you should reconsider your position, now that you understand the importance of knowing that factoid.

[Woody Box]

15. Why so aggressive, Sergeant?

Boloboffin has already played the "You have no clue how ATC works" card, so why to repeat that? :boring: The level of my understanding of ATC doesn't matter at all in this case.

The Kean Report claims that the controllers missed the re-emerged Flight 77 because they were looking at the wrong direction. This is a "kindergarten" version for me, because controllers who lost a plane have to look at every direction the plane might have gone. It's simply their job.

I'm impressed by your technical expertise, but the other flights were tracked and displayed on the screens after the switch-off of the transponder, too - so why not Flight 77? (You think that Flight 77, as an untagged return, was not displayed on the screens, do I get you right?)

Here's the statement of Pete Zalewski, the controller who was in charge of Flight 11 when it switched the transponder off. Obviously, Zalewski still is able to track the plane - he's calling his supervisor to take a look.

Mr. ZALEWSKI: I then saw the transponder shut off.

Mr. MARTINS: And I'm thinking, 'Well, maybe there's really something wrong. First there's no radio, now we lost this transponder.'

BROKAW: (Voiceover) Every commercial airplane is equipped with a transponder that transmits a constant signal. The signal gives controllers on the ground a steady flow of information displayed on radar screens in a datablock, such as this one. Think of it as the airplane's vital signs--the carrier, flight number, speed and altitude. If the transponder is not working, the plane is simply a blip on radar. Controllers can see only the location and the speed of the plane.

(Plane taking off; controllers in control tower; radar screen; text showing transponder information; radar screen)

Mr. ZALEWSKI: And so, I very quietly turned to the supervisor and I said, 'Would you please come over here?' I said, 'I think something is seriously wrong with this plane. I don't know what. It's either mechanical, electrical, I think, but I'm not sure.'

http://newsmine.org/archive/9-11/air-traffic-controllers-recall-events.txt

[Woody Box]

16. SUB-THREAD: POSSIBLE EXPLANATIONS

I'd like to gather and discuss the different attempts to explain the confusing sentences in the Kean Report here. Several explanation models are already available.

[Woody Box]

17. The woody box version

Flight 77 vanished completely from the radar screens at 8:56 for whatever reason, maybe it crashed, maybe it was shot down. It was never observed by Indianapolis or Washington controllers because it was not flying towards Washington.

The plane that was observed by Dulles controllers at 9:32 and later hit the Pentagon was not Fight 77.

[Woody Box]

18. The boloboffin version

Flight 77's radar signal was displayed on the screens, but the controllers of Indianapolis and Washington didn't notice it because the screen was full of confusing dots.

[Bolo Boffin]

20. We're off to see the wizard!

woodybox loves him some straw men, doesn't he?

[Woody Box]

19. The sgsmith version

Flight 77 was not displayed on the controller screens because the computer program allowed only tagged targets to show up. Furthermore, controllers didn't bother to activate a routine which showed also the primary radar targets.

[sgsmith]

21. Which is not what I said

I wasn't there in the center, and you weren't either. Neither of us knows all the capabilities of primary and secondary radar, how the computers work to integrate the two, how the displays work, what options are available to a particular controller or display. Take your mis-statements elsewhere.

[mirandapriestly]

27. That is what you implied

Your argument would have been fairly weak if it weren't for the possibility that untagged returns didn't show up on the computer...

[DrDebug]

22. DrDebug version

It landed at Portsmouth Airport.



:popcorn:

Edit:Added a visual map (It was the best I could find...)

[Name removed]

23. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Woody Box]

37. Interesting possibility

Is this speculation or have you some kind of evidence?

Wright-Patterson AFB at Dayton might be another possible "arrival" airport.

[Old and In the Way]

32. Which of those 2 maps are correct?

That part of the path is documented, right? Before the transponders went off. So why the rather big discrepancy between the 2 maps? Is the USA map wrong, it refers to the same data source which is the lower screen shot? Or could the Flight Explorer map have been changed to erase that jog? If so, why was the flight path misrepresented/changed?

That jog alone would seem to have been quite a flag for the ATC to focus on. If they had lost contact with 77 and given that 2 airliners were known hijacks and then crashed into the WTC....why wasn't some aircraft scrambled to intercept 77 somewhere over WV?

[DrDebug]

34. Flight Explorer is the most reliable

Because that is not drawn. For example USA Today misses Ohio, because it made the turn just over the Ohio border.

[Woody Box]

36. Yep

The USA Today map is really bad. The Flight Explorer map is also available as animated gif where each position is accompanied by a data tag with altitude, speed, etc.

Flight 77's little deviation to the North on its way west, for instance, is way too big in the USA Today map.

[Virginia Dare]

35. I still believe it did...

but I don't believe that is what caused most of the destruction.

[mirandapriestly]

38. Yes, from reading the accounts

of the people in the building that day, it sounds like something else was going on, plane or no plane.

[Woody Box]

39. Air traffic controller: Washington Center DID watch Flight 77!

The 9/11 Commission claims that the controllers of Washington Center were not aware of Flight 77 on its way to the Pentagon because they were not told to look for primary targets (i.e. to switch on the primary radar).

But in an article from Stacey Shultz et al for US News&World Report

http://www.keepmedia.com/pubs/USNewsWorldReport/2001/10/08/220182?extID=10026

an anonymous air controller claims that "The person said controllers in the Washington center 'knew that the B-757 was inbound, the transponder was off, and heading right for us.' He added, 'I will say I am a little shocked that we really didn't receive any urgent phone calls to start tracking EVERYONE and provide more of a profound tracking until after the Pentagon was attacked.'"

(You have to pay for this article; I didn't, but I detected the quote here: http://www.americanidealism.com/articles/the-month-of-the-long-knives-the-media-and-9-11.html)

So what's going on here?

[mirandapriestly]

40. Um, someone is lying?

My vote goes to the 911 Commission due to their conflict of interest.