Conspiracies Theories?

[Turbineguy]

Yesterday I was handed a DVD called "facts about 911".

It contains a documentary style expose about the WTC and Pentagon attacks. The US government did it. I'm sorry, but I'm not buying it. To take small snippets of what words people use that happen to mean something as jargon by demolition people does not cut it.

Then there are the two small flashes at the 2 aircraft enter the WTC towers. Do they really occur before the plane touches the building? Well perhaps, but the nose of the aircraft has the radar; high voltage, high frequency, high amperage. Would the radar blow up from a near zero distance reflection? I don't know. But it would certainly catch fire on impact. And the time between the flash and impact is really hard to differentiate.

Then there is the notion that the civilian planes, well, disappeared and their places taken by Air Force planes. OK, so 4- 150 million dollar planes were taken from the inventory and nobody noticed? Boeing keeps track of planes they built. They would have noticed that there were no more reports on those 4 planes. Witnesses said the planes were grey and had the wrong markings. If you can substitute planes, you can paint them.

It would have taken hundreds if not thousands of people to pull off something like this. All those involved would have had to agree to participate in a plot where as many as 100,000 Americans could have been killed.

Then the act would have been pulled off in front of millions of witnesses. Thousands of people would step forward to investigate.

And then, to me, the biggie: you would have to tell George W Bush. Would you trust him not to shoot off his big mouth? Would you trust him to not turn on you because he suddenly decided it was expedient?

What would be the goal of conducting such an operation? To increase the power of the Republicans? George W Bush was President already and the republicans controlled both houses of congress. All Bush has to do is not screw up too badly and he stays there. With the amount of scrutiny such an attack would be subjected to, it's crazy to even contemplate it. High risk for little reward.

There are simply too many things that were unknowns. At any point in the process the perpetrators could have been caught. Too may things could have gone wrong.

The terrorists simply studied the system, found the weaknesses and exploited them. Getting caught was obviously not a serious problem for them. If they succeeded they would die, if they were thwarted, somebody else would step up with a new plan.

So why then all the delays into the investigation and cover-ups? To cover up the incompetence at many levels that allowed the attacks to happen and to put off that evil day of reckoning. All the differing accounts by witnesses? The normal woolliness of many witnesses.

What about the PNAC? Let's see, these were the same guys that said we would be welcomed into Iraq with flowers and the whole operation would cost 1 billion. Yes, they needed a "Pearl Harbor" event and they got lucky. They could not possibly have pulled off something like the 911 attacks.

I think these conspiracy theories are not helpful in solving the problems wrought by Bush being made President of the US. It is better to capitalize on the incompetence rather than suggest that Bush was so diabolically clever that he could mount such an attack and get away with it.

[Franknable]

1. You just might be right. n/t

n/t

[petgoat]

2. Welcome to the Dungeon, Turbineguy. You raise some good points.

There are some good DVDs and some really silly ones, but the
good thing about all of them is that they get people thinking
and questioning. Obviously you've been stimulated to do some
thinking.

To save time, I'll ignore your good points and concentrate on
the things I take issue with.

It would have taken hundreds if not thousands of people to
pull off something like this.

I don't see why. Assuming the 19 hijackers could fly the planes,
all that was needed was to disrupt the air defense with classified
war games nobody's allowed to talk about. So you need someone
to tell al Qaeda about the war games, and perhaps someone to
see that the games were not quickly terminated, and you need
Maltbie and Frasca to hinder the FBI investigations. You need
Cheney to run the war games, Rummy and Myers and Rice to sit on
their hands, Bush to stay out of the way.

All those involved would have had to agree to participate in a
plot where as many as 100,000 Americans could have been killed.

It seems pretty clear the operation was designed to minimize
casualties. The planes had exceptionally low occupancy rates,
and the first strike before 9:00 meant few people were in the
buildings. At 11:00 a.m. the WTC population would have been
50,000.

you would have to tell George W Bush.

Are you sure? Tell him what? Why?

All Bush has to do is not screw up too badly and he stays there.

Maybe not. The NORC ballot study was due out in September of 2001,
and it was going to show that Gore got more votes in FL. The NLG
was preparing to undertake an impeachment drive against the five
justices who voted to install Bush. Bush's approval rating of
55% would have sunk below 50%.

To invade Iraq, and to undertake a campaign of subversion of
Constitutional liberties and increased military spending, Bush
needed a mandate. His Holy War on Terror (declared from inside
the National Cathedral while surrounded by Billy Graham, a
cardinal, a rabbi, and an imam) gave him 95% approval ratings.

Too may things could have gone wrong.

And they did. Flight 77 was delayed, and Bush had to sit and wait
until it hit the Pentagon. Flight 93 it appears was shot down.
There are stories of other planes that may have been hijack targets
but because of delays, remained on the ground. Perhaps one of them
was meant to hit Building 7, which then had to be brought down
without the benefit of an airplane crash.

The terrorists simply studied the system, found the
weaknesses and exploited them.

How did they know about the war games?

PNAC...said we would be welcomed into Iraq with flowers and
the whole operation would cost 1 billion.

Are you sure they believed it? A long drawn out war justifies
long drawn out war powers, allows domestic political enemies to
be easily identified, enables extensive looting of the public
treasury, justifies media suppression, makes questioning vote
counts seem unpatriotic, and keeps oil prices high.

They could not possibly have pulled off something like the 911
attacks.

Somebody did. GHWB has close ties to people who have spent a
lifetime in black ops.

It is better to capitalize on the incompetence

Incompetence will surely be his defense at The Hague. I want
him held accountable for his crimes.

[quickesst]

4. Well said Petgoat...

as usual. There is a big difference in being an idiot, and being a criminal. Unless you're both. I have come to the conclusion that Bush knew very little of the machinations going on. I think he was told by his handlers that they would take care of things, and all he had to do was play the role of president when it occurred. Why would he fly all over the country and not address the public until, I believe, a day and a half later? I think it took his handlers that long to get him calmed down enough to play his part. Just personal speculation. Thanks.
quickesst

[petgoat]

5. I've wondered about Bush's airplane odyssey, too.

It kinda looks like he got an Air Force One and immediately headed
for Crawford--he gave that press conference from Barksdale AFB
in Louisiana. Then maybe somebody convinced him that it wouldn't
look good, or it might be a bad security move, and he flew to
Offutt in Nebraska.

I wonder if he was all freaked out because he was forced to sit
and wait for the Pentagon strike and he thought somebody was
double-crossing him and setting him up to take the fall?

[Brainster]

3. I Agree In General, Couple Corrections Though

First, the Republicans did not control both houses of Congress on 9/11. The Republicans controlled the house but the Democrats controlled the Senate thanks to Jim Jeffords leaving the Republican Party and caucusing with the Dems.

Second, the PNAC report commonly cited did not indicate a need for a new Pearl Harbor; it simply noted that the dramatic changes they proposed were unlikely to happen quickly absent some new Pearl Harbor.

[Sinti]

6. Hi Turbineguy

I wish they had given Everybody's Gotta Learn Sometime instead.

You can find it here, if you're interested. No wild theories posited, it's mostly made up of stuff that you can find in the MSM.

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=6757267008400743688

I totally agree with you on several things

The jargonistic snippets out of context prove Nothing.

The plane crash flashes - duh, the plane just hit the building, of course there's a flash, and then a fireball what would you expect.

No planes/plane swap - nobody's going to do this. If they did (and managed to fool us, which I doubt) the international community would certainly call BS.

Too may things could have gone wrong. This is true, and had something gone wrong, they would have found 19 hijackers on 4 planes and tossed them in jail.

But I don't agree with these:

It would have taken hundreds if not thousands of people to pull off something like this - Technically, it only takes a handful that know how the system works, and everybody else just does their job the best they can - as proven by the confusion you can hear on the NORAD tapes. That's how black ops are done - compartmentalization and working the system.


What would be the goal of conducting such an operation? It's not the power of the pugs - 9/11 began a sea change in international politics. Think of the world we live in now - billions in no-bid contracts being the smallest of outrages perpetrated - loss of liberties, generally - this apparent struggle for world domination we're blindly embarking upon - none of this would be possible without 9/11.

Have you read The Grand Chessboard?

Lying and stalling to cover up the incompetence - was 41's administration incompetent? Nearly everyone in this administration is an old hand. They've done these kinds of jobs before, and done them very successfully. They come from the old Reagan and Bush administrations - they are anything but incompetent.

PNAC is only one small group within the larger group of people who want a world different (very different) than the pre-9/11 world was. They're having their way and will likely continue to do so.

They could not possibly have pulled off something like the 911 attacks. - And a small group of ME outcasts, with less than 1/10th the budget, skill, and knowledge of our system could?

It is better to capitalize on the incompetence - they capitalize on your belief in incompetence. They constantly claim that they need more power, more weapons, and less oversight to protect you. Give up your liberties, or you cannot be safe. This is how dictatorships are built - it happens from the inside.

It's not something that some of us can throw our hands up and say, well, this isn't hurting them politically so let's do something else. Hurting them politically is not the point. They are criminals and they need to be brought to justice for what they have done.

[mother earth]

7. Bush didn't mount the attack, and what was gained?

Carte blanche...they pretty much are dictators now. The corporations have the power & there's lots & lots of gold/money gone missing, etc., etc. Laws are being trashed & rewritten to promote their agenda. This is a story of greed trumping life.

Incompetence is a very convenient excuse. For all systems to fail is beyond chance.

No, there's far more here & a real investigation was never conducted. Another convenience, especially when Bush didn't want one to begin with, then there was all the problem with testifying...was it necessary for them, etc. Give me a break.