New connections reported: Mohammed Atta, Flight School operator and CIA

[HamdenRice]

The source for putting this together is Daniel Hopsicker, and is also well summarized in the Cannonfire blog, but most of the facts alleged are independently verifiable.

One of Mohammed Atta's close associates in Florida was the German pilot Wolfgang Bohringer. Atta's girlfriend, Amanda Keller, claims that Bohringer was one of Atta's closest friends and one of the few people he referred to as a "brother." (Although Keller's credibility has been questioned, Bohringer himself has been quoted recently bragging how close he was to Atta.)

Bohringer recently resurfaced in a way that caused the FBI to issue a terror alert. Bohringer sailed his yacht into the tiny Pacific island nation of Kiribati where he made an unusual proposal: He wanted to build a flight school there, that would train people how to fly DC3 aircraft. This seemed bizarre to the locals inasmuch as Kiribati has virtually no infrastructure and is literally in the middle of nowhere.

<quote>
http://www.abc.net.au/news/newsitems/200611/s1789152.htm

Bill Paupe, who runs an aviation business in Honolulu and is Kiribati's consul in the US, says the proposal to set up a flying school on Fanning Island, which has no phones or functioning air strip, made no sense.

"One would say why would anybody want to set up a flight school there?" he said.

"It'd be very expensive, you'd have to travel all the people there, all your instructors and staff would have to be housed and fed and everything."

He says the only obvious rationale for the proposal would be to get beyond the reach of aviation regulatory agencies in the US, Australia or New Zealand.

<unquote>

According to New Zealand TV, Bohringer also bragged about his relationship with Atta, showed locals that he possessed seven passports and flashed lots of cash:

<quote>
http://tvnz.co.nz/view/page/411419/891692

"One particular night he laid out seven passports on the table. I recall one being from Ireland, from the Bahamas, one from Grenada, India, the US, Germany and one other one," Corbett says.

Then there was the cash and lots of it.

"I would offer to go shopping for him," says Corbett. "He would always give me a $100 bill. Once it was seven $100 bills and they were always crisp and neat."

But the alarm bells really started ringing when Bohringer told islanders he was in contact with Mohammed Atta, the architect of September 11.
The pair mixed frequently as Bohringer had owned a flight school beside the airfield where the 9/11 hijackers trained.

<unquote>

When Kiribati officials asked for terrorism assistance with respect to Bohringer, Bohringer fled the island in his yacht.

Hopsicker is now reporting that Bohringer was arrested and interrogated by the FBI, but was released when he told the FBI that he worked for the CIA:

<quote>
http://www.madcowprod.com/120112006.html

Bohringer told authorities that he worked for the Central Intelligence Agency. The revelation brought his immediate release.

<unquote>

As Cannonfire points out, many two bit hustlers, drug dealers and other criminals have tried to get out of jail free by asserting that they work for the CIA. But the FBI only actually releases such people when their CIA connections are confirmed by the FBI.

http://www.cannonfire.blogspot.com/

There is also a lot about the connections between Bohringer and organized crime, especially financial crimes emanating from eastern Europe.

Interesting, and developing ...

[seatnineb]

1. Why would a CIA agent boast about being close to Atta?

That does not make any sense.

[HamdenRice]

2. You are confusing "agent" and "asset"

And, why not try reading some of the referrenced materials before just dismissing the story?

[seatnineb]

3. A CIA asset or agent claiming to have been close to somebody like Atta...

...still makes no sense.

And I know Hopshitter's work like the back of my hand.

[RedSock]

14. can we have an informed discussion?

"Hopshitter"?

Am I back in 2nd grade?

[John Q. Citizen]

4. Barry Seal was close to ghw bush, and told his lawyer as much. He had

bush's phone # on him when he was assassinated.

If someone feels untouchable, why not brag about something after some drinks.
It's not like anybody is actually going to do anything about it, is it?

What's the point of having power if you can't enjoy that power?

Who reads madcow? It's not like Hopsicker is publishing his work in the San Jose Mercury about CIA ties to drug runners.

The world know about the Downing Street Memos, but what difference does it make really? I don't see anybody getting too upset about it.

[seatnineb]

5. Those are good points John............ it's just that I have been trying for 3 years

....to understand where Hopsicker is leading too.

Hidden deep in the depths of Welcome to Terrorland Hopsicker reaveals his true colours.........

For what it is worth,we feel America's War On Terror is Wholly Justified.Lying to the American people in matters pertaining to the deaths of 3000 people,on the hand ,is not.
Welcome to Terrorland
Page 302.

[John Q. Citizen]

6. Have you aked him about that quote? That does sound disturbing on the

face of it.

What Chapter is that In. I'm looking it up on americanbuddha.com and they don't include page numbers.

Thanks

PS

I just found it,

"Sadly, it appears the FBI's investigation was slanted -- or jimmied -- in the same way U.S. intelligence estimates were twisted in the run up to the war in Iraq, in order to present the American people the idea that it was the next logical step in America's 'War on Terror.'

For what's it worth, we feel that America's "War on Terror" is wholly-justified. Lying to the American people in matters pertaining to the deaths of 3,000 people, on the other hand, is not."

[seatnineb]

11. Hopsicker is a member of DU....although he only posted a few times.

He goes by the name Danhop:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=125x38702#38866

[John Q. Citizen]

26. Thanks for the link, it's an interesting conversation.

It sounds to me that Hopsicker is a proponent of Oops theory, for want of a better description. I e-mailed him your criticism of his passage on the war on terror, and this was Hopsickers reply;


From 12/14/06

HIDDEN?? they are far from hidden.
the presence of arab psychpaths in the us was allowed/encouraged because of the heroin trade, which was making a few americans with the ability to move the levers of government a lot of money. the americans involved deserve to hang.
so do the arabs, including saudis who fund bin laden and have been protected from righeous retribution because of their business relationships with the americans involved. these are, and have always, been my "true colors." and, unlike the bullshit disinformation which passes for 9/11 "activism," they are supported by the facts.

[seatnineb]

29. Thanks for the info JohnQ.....interesting response from Hopsicker...

I wonder if the "righteouse retribution" that Hopsicker refers to means Hopsicker is in favour of invading Saudi Arabia?

[John Q. Citizen]

31. I can't read that into it, but I don't know. Sounds like he in favor of cleaning house.

Indira's Singh's comments to Grassley when she asked him if she is a citizen of the United Arab States of America kind of strike a parallel tone I think.

[HamdenRice]

7. I think what he's saying is this:

First of all, I don't think he has a grand theory. It's more like a series of factual observations that are impossible to reconcile with the official story. These observations do, however, provide some theoretical insight into how the world actually works, as compared to how the media portrays it. For example,

1. Because the operations side of intelligence works on a plane that is above or outside the law, and because intelligence agents have to gather intelligence from criminals, the operational intelligence community itself is a breeding ground for corruption. In particular, drug running, money laundering and intelligence operations tend to merge. Domestically, the analogy is the under FBI agent who infiltrates the mob or the KKK only to find there is a thin line between pretending to be a gangster and becoming a gangster.

2. The hijackers' identities are not what they appear to be in the mainstream media. Some of them have deep and longstanding connections to US defense and intelligence networks. This may seem like the hijackers were like Manchurian candidates waiting to be unleashed on the public. But more likely, in the unaccountable world of intelligence and special forces, it is impossible for the official side of the business to police the unofficial side. It reminds me of the infamous case of "ex" CIA agents Frank Terpil and Ed Wilson who were able to commandeer explosives and even special forces trainers from US military bases to take to Libya to train terrorists. Someone in the position of the commander of Fort Bragg can't even tell whether the agent or asset requesting the supplies is legitimate or not.

3. His research contradicts the very heart of the official story, which is the heart of every crime story, that is motive. The official story is that the hijackers, or at least the lead hijackers, were Muslim extremists who hated American culture. How many times did the MSM trot out some analysis of the founders of the jihadist movement despising the moral corruption of America? While the hijackers allegedly had geopolitical motives, we were constantly told that they also had this huge religious basis for their actions. The fact that they drank, smoked, did drugs, frequented strip clubs, loved lap dances, gambled in Republican-controlled Abramoff casinos, that several cells tried to hire prostitutes on the very eve of the hijackings when they according to the official story should have been getting ready for their 19 black eyed virgins in heaven, and generally led decadent, corrupt lives flatly contradicts the official motive story.

As for the bragging issue, I don't see why this doesn't make sense. As John pointed out the brain dead media isn't going to pick up on the doings of someone like this in a faraway Pacific island anyway. Moreover, CIA assets do brag -- the story of Terpil and Wilson is full of them blathering. Free lancers like this have to brag -- it's how they market themselves.

[seatnineb]

25. I agree with all your points Hamden....but when Hopsicker says this:

For what it is worth,we feel America's War On Terror is Wholly Justified.Lying to the American people in matters pertaining to the deaths of 3000 people,on the hand ,is not.
Welcome to Terrorland
Page 302.

...it leads me to doubt Hopsicker's motive.

You can only believe that America's War on Terror is justified if you believe that 19 Arab hijackers based in Afganistan carried out 9/11.

The flip side is you can also believe that America's war On terror is unjustified even whilst simultaneously believing the 19 Arab hijackers based in Afghanistan story........possibly like some of the official story believers on this very forum......

[eyl]

57. re the motive

His research contradicts the very heart of the official story, which is the heart of every crime story, that is motive. The official story is that the hijackers, or at least the lead hijackers, were Muslim extremists who hated American culture. How many times did the MSM trot out some analysis of the founders of the jihadist movement despising the moral corruption of America? While the hijackers allegedly had geopolitical motives, we were constantly told that they also had this huge religious basis for their actions. The fact that they drank, smoked, did drugs, frequented strip clubs, loved lap dances, gambled in Republican-controlled Abramoff casinos, that several cells tried to hire prostitutes on the very eve of the hijackings when they according to the official story should have been getting ready for their 19 black eyed virgins in heaven, and generally led decadent, corrupt lives flatly contradicts the official motive story.

It's not contradictory. You can find similiar behavior in other cases of Islamic terrorism as well (such as Buenos Aires, IIRC). In their belief system, martyrdom cleanses all sins and assures entrance to heaven, so why not have a bang before the last one?

[mirandapriestly]

23. good find.snb.eom

[KJF]

8. Not so fast

Hopsicker's main idea - that the FBI is not telling us everything about the hijackers' time in the US - is probably going to hold; it's pretty clear that they were not a lone cadre. Keller is, I think, a step too far and is not going to hold. If Bohringer knows Kozeny et al. then it is a very small step for him to lots of shady stuff in Eastern Europe, but the connection between Atta and Bohringer is not that firm and I'm not getting excited about it.

[John Q. Citizen]

9. So do you think Hopsicker is lying that Kellor told him about the German pilot

friend of Atta's named Wolfgang, and that at the time it was the first he heard of it and then later connected Wolfgang to the last name Bohringer. And that she said Wolfgang got his green card in a lottery just like Bohriger did?

And is the person quoted on the island first by Hopsicker and then later by AP lying that Wolfgang Bohringer told them he knew Atta?

I'm just curious as to how you thread your way from I believe this and don't believe that. Hopsicker wrote about wolfgang Bohringer based on Kellors interview three years ago, long before this latest incident.

So how would Hopsicker know, if not for Kellor? And of course Hopsicker knew about Kellor because of three different articles in three local papers soon after 9/11 when Kellor first said she had been Atta's girlfriend.

[KJF]

13. I don't think Hopsicker is lying

I'm saying Keller might be lying. She has both admitted and denied the relationship with Atta, so she must have been lying once.

Some of the stuff Hopsicker writes checks out, some doesn't. He is not the oracle of all wisdom.

[HamdenRice]

15. Was the FBI lying about its own terror alert?

Sorry, but your assertion is just bizarre. The FBI's terror alert was based on the connection between Bohringer and Atta. It would have to be lying about its own terror alert for your view to be correct.

So how is that Atta-Bohringer connection unproven?

[KJF]

17. The official report Hopsicker quotes says:

‘The FBI said Wolfgang Bohringer was considered a "person of interest" and had close connections with a US flight school used by Atta...
http://www.madcowprod.com/120112006.html

So the report says the connections were with Huffman, not Atta himself (although there might be such connections too).

And the TVNZ report says:

The joint terrorism task force has now joined the FBI investigation into Bohringer.
http://tvnz.co.nz/view/page/411419/891692

So, at least according to the NZ press, the JTTF got involved after another element of the FBI, presumably narcotics.

My attitude to Hopsicker is "once bitten, twice shy". I'm not saying Atta never met Bohringer, I'm just saying there's no proof of any meaningful direct connection. What you posted is interesting, but I'm still cautious. I hear that there's a drugs connection sometimes, and from better sources than Hopsicker, but it's not something I've made my mind up about yet.

[rman]

27. If 9-11 is an inside job

done by elements within the intel community (obviously including operatives with a criminal background) then there's bound to be drugs involved. It is how black funds for black ops are created. Two words: Iran/Contra.

[John Q. Citizen]

19. I hardly think that anyone is or could be the oracle of all wisdom. But thats]'s

beside the point.

If Amanda was lying about Atta, how could she have known about Wolfgang? If Amanda was lying about Atta, were her neighbors, the manager, and various other witnesses also lying about Atta?

Amamnda had a lot to lose (her children, for instance) and when push came to shove, she recanted. However, a number of facts in her story check out, facts that would be impossible for her to to know unless she actually knew Atta.

[KJF]

21. OK

You wrote:

A number of facts in her story check out, facts that would be impossible for her to to know unless she actually knew Atta.

Let's see them. What facts do you think would be impossible for her to know unless she actually knew Atta? If you think there's a long list, there's no need to bother typing them all, just a couple will do to start.

[HamdenRice]

10. Are you dismissing the FBI and New Zealand and Australian press?

There is a bizarre phenomenon that occurs here: any press reports not cited to US press reports are deemed unreliable or outright false. As though our corporate owned MSM is the most truthful on the planet.

Notice that the connection between Atta and Bohringer is not limited to Hopsicker nor to Hopsicker's reliance on Amanda Keller. Even if you think Amanda is a liar (not that I think she is), we have Australian and New Zealand reporters quoting people on the island saying that Bohringer bragged of his connection to Atta.

For that matter we have the FBI itself justifying its terror alert on Bohringer on the basis of his connection to Atta.

That's independent verification of a connection between Atta and Bohringer.

[KJF]

16. Bragging

Just because Bohringer bragged of a connection to Atta (assuming he really did and the people the Australian and NZ press got the story from aren't bigging it up), doesn't mean there necessarily really was one, still less a close one - maybe Bohringer was lying himself.

We will see where this story goes. It is interesting, but not a slam dunk yet.

[HamdenRice]

18. I think you are unreasonably bending over backwards on this one

As in a criminal case, no one except the perpetrator and victim can know with complete certainty what happened. But here the overwhelming weight of evidence from many unconnected sources is of an Atta-Bohringer relationship:

1. Amanda Kellor's first hand account of a close Atta-Bohringer relationship,

2. Hopsicker's reporting about others describing a close relationship,

3. FBI terror alert makes reference to a Atta-Bohringer relationship through the flight school,

4. New Zealand reporters quoting islander locals providing accounts of Bohringer bragging of a close relationship with Atta,

5. Island officials asking for outside help because of Bohringer-Atta relationship.

If you are not convinced of a Bohringer-Atta relationship then basically you are saying your mind is closed to evidence.

I'm kind of surprised because I thought the very weakest part of the story is the most important -- namely, that Bohringer admitted to a CIA relationship and that the FBI released him because of it. That part of the story depends solely on Hopsicker's reporting.

But as far as I'm concerned there is no reasonable doubt about the Atta-Bohringer relationship.

[KJF]

22. This and that

You wrote:

1. Amanda Kellor's first hand account of a close Atta-Bohringer relationship,

I do not believe Keller. She admitted it and denied it and I don't think it is going to check out.

2. Hopsicker's reporting about others describing a close relationship,

Not quite sure what you mean here - close relationship between who?

3. FBI terror alert makes reference to a Atta-Bohringer relationship through the flight school,

It's not necessarily a direct relationship.

4. New Zealand reporters quoting islander locals providing accounts of Bohringer bragging of a close relationship with Atta,

Interesting, but not conclusive.

5. Island officials asking for outside help because of Bohringer-Atta relationship.

That's sort of true in a roundabout way, but it seems they were more concerned with drugs than with terrorism, at least at the start. And we still haven't established the Atta-Bohringer relationship is direct.

Again, this is interesting, but I'm still going to sit on the fence here. Maybe Atta knew Bohringer, maybe he didn't.

[DrDebug]

12. They are all serpentine connections. The link is that they were in the same business

Atta and Bohringer were in the same line of business with Atta stationed in Venice and Bohringer was stationed in Eastern Europe at one point in time. It is clear that they knew one-another. Just like Atta and Dekkers knew one-another prior to Venice as well so they must have participated in some German deals, but other than that it is a loose affliation.

The main point is that has become clear that the whole Venice operation was primarily about drug running and Atta was selected because he was Arab, however there was probably more to it and Huffman Aviation could easily be manipulated to participate in the Official Conspiracy Theory since Dekkers is both a wanted criminal and an illegal alien, so if he didn't cooperate they could have shipped him off to jail and if he did cooperate he would have become untouchable which is exactly what he is. And that he screwed Atta over was just tough luck for Atta.

As far as the CIA part, there are many indications and relationships in the whole story (Myron DuBain, Adnan Khashoggi and now Bohringer as well). The whole 5.5 tons of Skyways was also covered up with many links to top including the FAA refusing to disclose the owner of the airplane.

This basically means - slightly different from what HamdenRice says - that the companies are an asset, and not a front. And that people like Atta, Bohringer are an agent, and not officers (involves formal training) which also explains the mystery of the alphabet agencies, because is Atta an agent of CIA, BND (Germany), or Saudi intelligence and the answer is that he was all at a certain point in time and he was moved around from one department to the next as he moved to various locations to drug his drugs.

[Spoonerian]

20. Here's my best recollection

of my madcow morning newses:

Keller didn't know Borhringer's last name. She only new a guy named Wolfgang who looked like Val Kilmer.

Hopsicker somehow inferred that Amanda's Wolfgang was Bohringer--a Naples, FL flight school owner (possibly connected to Dekkers, Hilliard, et. al. I can't remember that).

I think Hopsicker almost tracked Bohringer down in Atlanta one time after that.

Then, 3 years later Hopsicker gets emails from someone on Fanning Island saying that they found madcow morning news after doing google searches on Bohringer's name because Bohringer was floating this crazy DC3 flight school idea and the Fanning Island emailer was google searching trying to figure out who this nutty guy Bohringer was.

Only then, after reading madcow morning news, did the Fanning Islanders ask Bohringer about Atta. And only then did Bohringer need to admit to anybody about knowing Atta, but not being involved in 911 himself. I don't think anybody ever said Bohringer "bragged" about knowing Atta.

And then the most interesting thing happened. Australian and New Zealand newspapers reported that the FBI issued some kind of terror alert concerning "person of interest" Bohringer. These reports get picked up by a few British and Chinese news papers but aren't mentioned in any U.S. press.

Hence, a few weeks ago the FBI issued terror alerts based PURELY on facts discovered by Hopsicker from his interviews with Amanda Keller--which is the most significant aspect of these latest developments.

[mhatrw]

24. Interesting information

I'm not sure how much credence to give it, but it does give one pause.

[Name removed]

28. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

30. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

32. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

33. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Taxloss]

35. Why not kick this, eh, wild bill?

You were praising this poster earlier. What do you make of these fresh bombshells?

[Name removed]

36. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Taxloss]

37. If it was picked up by another site,

you should have linked to the other site.

Instead, you linked to this vile hate site.

[Taxloss]

39. And it's not exactly just this site, is it?

You've also been linking to Skolnick, another anti-semite.

[the_brain]

41. my second and last response to this

let's debate the authenticity of the information in the preceding articles.

my google when straight to the EIR report wich so happen to be subreferenced by a right wing page. the page you present I never came up on my google.

let's debate the authenticity of the information in the preceding articles.

let's debate the authenticity of the information in the preceding articles.

[Taxloss]

44. Look what's #1 selling book at "Hidden Mysteries":

Jews Must Live!
Beyond the Facts
by Samuel Roth

This Jewish author reveals a startling, inside "Account of the Persecution of the World by Israel on All the Frontiers of Civilization"

To be compelled to go to work, to do manual labor for one's livelihood, is the very worse state the young Jew can fall to, something to make him feel really ashamed and humiliated.

...

"Wherever Jews have been admitted...one by one the industries of the country close to them because of their unfair practices...There is not a single instance where the Jews have not fully deserved the bitter fruit of the fury of their persecutors. 'We come to the nations pretending to escape persecution, yet we are the most deadly persecutors in all the wretched annals of man..."

http://hiddenmysteries.com/xcart/product.php?productid=16279&cat=243

[Lurking Dem]

51. Good G-d!

That is absolutely vile. I can't believe people publish this crap.

[rman]

47. "Sibel Edmunds"

Just a minor correction.

Thanks for all that information, thanks for your efforts.

[rman]

49. uhm... "Sibel Edmonds"

:banghead:

[seatnineb]

50. Nice work The_Brain....and welcome to DU n/t

[Taxloss]

53. Yeah, real nice. n/t

[Name removed]

38. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Taxloss]

40. Funny, I don't see you using your powers of logic to attack the haters. n/t

[the_brain]

42. nice try!

you claim the skolnick is anti-semitic. sherman skolnick is a non practicing jew. nice try.

[Taxloss]

43. He is, or was, a conduit for anti-semitic propaganda.

It's all the same tedious Rothschilds-run-America rubbish. If you don't believe it, why are you providing a platform for it?

[JackRiddler]

45. Well, I guess you haven't been reading me.

You could start with the first item I ever published as a 9/11 skeptic:

Very long page.

http://911truth.org/osamas/links.html#policy

Scroll down from there to "a note on fairy tales and misinformation."

June 2002. I have constantly attacked any anti-Semitic material that reared its head since then. And also seen the likes of you constantly impute blanket accusations of anti-Semitism to anyone who questions 9/11.

[Taxloss]

46. But not here.

Whenever someone in this forum states tht 9/11 was NOT an inside job, you can hardly move for the likes of you pointing out their errors and attacking their sources.

But when this antisemitic crapola gets posted, where are all the MIHOPers? Silent.

Aren't you always saying things like "he who is silent is assumed to consent"?

Your protestations would be a bit more convincing if we saw more of an effort from the MIHOPers to keep this forum free of this filth.

[Name removed]

34. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Anarcho-Socialist]

48. Lyndon LaRouche!

:rofl:

[Anarcho-Socialist]

52. Another anti-Semite bites the dust

[HamdenRice]

54. I guess if you believe 9/11 was an inside job, you're an ardent Zionist

This is a response to some of the posts here that try to use the guilt by association meme: because some of the first people to say (1) that 9/11 was an inside job (2) were anti-Semites, then (3) anyone who says 9/11 is an inside job must trace their beliefs to anti-Semitic organizations and sources.

But Jared Israel was one of the very first internet sources to say he believed 9/11 was an inside job. And Jared Israel is an ardent Zionist, whose web site is devoted mostly to exposing holocaust denial and anti-Semitism.

After 9/11, there were people who had suspicions about the official story who were Zionists, Israeli nationalists, Palestinian nationalists and "Islamofascists"; there were people who were African nationalists and who were Afrikaner Weerbestandbewegging white nationalists; there were socialists, communists and free market capitalists; there were African American civil rights multiculturalists and Ku Klux Klan aryan supremacists. That's because suspicion of the 9/11 official story does not fit into any particular ideological or racial category other than maybe bullshit detectors -- except of course, that people who adore George W. Bush and believe that he and the members of his administration are too nice and patriotic to have done anything so dastardly, would be the only ideological faction that could not under any circumstances accept suspicion of the official story. (That does not mean, of course, that everyone who staunchly supports the official story adores George W. Bush. Just sayin'.)

Pointing to the fact that there were anti-Semites who had suspicions about the official story does not mean that everyone who had suspicions about the official story are anti-Semites.

[Taxloss]

55. Lie down with dogs, get up with fleas.

There aren't just a few anti-semites in the "Truth" movement. It's riddled with them. Alex Jones. Lyndon LaRouche. Rense. Wayne Madsen. These people aren't a fringe of your merry gang, they're part of its main stream. If there weren't rules against linking to their sites, rules that exist because their sites are full of this shit, then this forum would be full of "Truthers" happily linking to them. Hell, Truthers link to them anyway, it's like playing whack-a-mole. And the silence from all you soi disant non-anti-semite Truthers is deafening when this crap goes down - people linking to sites that endorse Holocaust denial, or say that AIPAC enjoys ritual child murder, or that Jews own the USA and start wars for shits and giggles. Sites that endorse the Protocols as if they are fact. These aren't exaggerations - Truthers have linked to sites saying all these things, and more, within the past month. High-post-count Truthers who are not banned. Normally you're so swift to challenge OCTers - where are you then? Let's see some of that fire turned on the Jew-hating posse the Truth Movement has front and centre. You claim to know a thing or two about how the world works - stop being so very naive about this deep cancer in your movement.

On edit: And I didn't accuse anyone - I insinuated. That's how this works, isn't it? Sinister insinuation? Didn't Larry Silverstein make a nice profit! Wasn't a Rockefeller involved in building the towers? Did Buzzy know something?

On edit a second time: If I sound angry it's because I'm angry. I'm angry because you're not stupid but I still have to explain this to you.

Third time's the charm: "are" to "aren't" to correct meaning, second line.

[John Q. Citizen]

59. It a conspiracy is it, Taxloss? n/t

[Taxloss]

60. Is that the best you can do? n/t

[John Q. Citizen]

62. I didn't know I was being graded on your conspiracy theory, TL.

[Bryan Sacks]

61. Taxloss, a serious question:

what is the credible evidence that Wayne Madsen is an anti-semite? I haven't seen it but would like to if true.

And as a 'truther' I think you have a point. It's incumbent on serious people who doubt the official story to distance themselves from anti-semitic shit when they see it. Though we might disagree as to why (I personally don't see it as a threat to anything, except to my time. It's self-refuting, as far as I'm concerned), but not on the point.

Thanks

[Taxloss]

72. Madsen seems to believe in a Jewish world conspiracy.

His conspiracy theories always seem to end up in Jewish hands. To him, all roads lead back to the "Russian-Israeli mafia", a phrase he's over-used to the point of it meaning nothing. He never justifies his claims about Israel - he seems to think that a connection to Israel is in itself evidence of criminality of some sort. He rarely nuances claims about Israel to suggest that he talking about Mossad, or the Israeli government, or the IDF, or a particular group or party within Israel - it's just "Israel", as if the whole country is some sort of criminal enterprise, or extremely vague catchalls. He also routinely accuses American Jews of dual loyalties, and of being afforded special treatment by the government.

I don't know if he is himself an anti-semite, but his site is promoting an anti-semitic worldview.

[vincent_vega_lives]

71. Careful!

he may block you! :scared:

[Bolo Boffin]

56. Isn't it fun being part of a belief system that feels obliged to point that out? n/t

[Taxloss]

58. Just in case you miss it:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=125x138312

[mountain_man]

63. lots of new information on al-cokieda and other networks tied to them.

PEOPLE OF DEMOCRATICUNDERGROUND we need your help.

I read the post that was wrote a couple of days ago that connected sammy the bull gravano and ledher with 911 al-cokieda that drdebug has done excellent research on.

because I have done much research on gravano, gotti, and the gambinos I almost fell out my chair when he link them to 911.

I've copied his reports and added to my archive. I have researched it and I have found some errors.

also I've have uncovered what appears to be a huge terror network.

here is my thesis.

al-cokieda heroine deal is connected to ledher. ledher is tied to gravano. gravano is tied to orgad.

orgad is not tied to the dancing isrealis to my knowledge.

orgad is tied to comverse.
gravano network ties to a group in south africa- wich is tied to a doomsday project (this gets really nasty)

the dancing isreals I haven't found any drug connections but I found new information linking them to 911.

this network possibly ties in anthax to the demolition to isreal.

and lastly edmond sibils case to ptech to and athrax.

I need your help in researching these leads because right_wingers are taking this knowledge and claiming that they have secret sources. I have research "the_brains" story and I have found who is the "source" of the source of some of his information. they arn't all right wing.

I can make a case in the following downloads

[mountain_man]

64. who is the source of the gravano-ledher partnership?

the_brain claim that sammy the bull gravano and carlos lehder were partners.

he used a jewish source michael ruppert. The claim originated from george tylor testimony. his testimony was picked up by bill moushey.
Bill Moushey spent a year investigating the witness protection program, through the Freedom of Information Act and through interviews with protected witnesses and government officials. The Post-Gazette picked up his Moushey's story

Michael ruppert got wind other the Post-Gazette story and printed in his on line post.

the_brain found it and printed on democraticunderground.com in his story.

who was george taylor.

this excerp from http://www.fear.org/witnss1.html tells why he testified

"George Taylor is one who felt abandoned. A former drug dealer, armed robber and massage parlor operator, he actually did more time in prison because he snitched than if he would have kept his mouth shut and simply served out his robbery sentence. After setting up several drug dealers, he was transferred into the witness protection program, a move which caused him to miss so many parole hearings that he served almost two years more than his minimum sentence. "

"For his cooperation, Taylor said, he was to get a new identity, relocated and given seed money to forge a new life. But on his release date at the Federal Correctional Institution at Phoenix, the government changed the plans."

"Instead of being set up with an anonymous life in a new home, Taylor was handed a plane ticket and $30 and shown the prison door."

"He said the change of heart occurred when officials learned that he planned to publicly discuss the program."

"He has since been repeatedly threatened with revocation of his parole. Recently, he was ordered back to Missouri by parole officials, despite the government's own assessment that more than 40 people want to harm him."

"Since he was freed last June, his home was burglarized by someone who seemed to be only interested in records and he was held by two deputy U.S. marshals for about six hours. He has taped conversations with his Missouri parole agent who said federal officials have been in constant contact with her about his status."

he was believe to be one of the source that carlos was snuck out of jail while in the witness protection custudy.

He is also the source of the carlos gamibino partnership.

I post more information in my next post wich colaborate that the information that the disgrunted drug dealer george taylor is probably true.

also I will explain who is the source of the information of carlos ledher is tied to 911 heroine.

[mountain_man]

65. who is the source of the information of carlos ledher tied to 911 heroine?

the_brain use TOM HENEGHAN as his source for his allegation that ledher was the one of individuals involve in the 43 pounds of heroin at the skyway flight school.

who originated the information?

Tom de Venice, political speech writer and critic of the Bush administration, affirm that president Bush was before the immersed attack in a possible scandal by the flight of Carlos Lehder, founder of the Cartel of Medellín, a prison of Florida, and a bribe to the Supreme Court of Justice with money of this one Cartel, canalized by means of Jeb Bush (brother of Goerge Walker) and Hugh Rotham. For Tom de Venice the terrorist attacks were orchestrated by bipartisan forces to distract to the public opinion on the judgment of the Hugh Rothman, the possible extradition of Ledher of Germany and to gain time with the purpose of reorganizing the fiasco of the world-wide economy.

Also he affirms that ex- members of the Iraqian army and German intelligence attended the aero-suicide to introduce arms in the kidnapped airplanes.

I personally think the american intelligence community is trying to burn germany on the 911 attacks. It has been shown that inside trading happen in a german bank connected to the CIA. It has been shown that Bohringer a german citzen and companion of mohommad atta is CIA. atta was part of a german-american student exchange program connected to the CIA. and I will try to show in my next post that ledher is also a half german CIA asset.

I think they are trying to tied iran to everything to justify a new war front.

It has be documented that isreali were at the ground zero also. so just stating that germans and iranians were trying to load planes with weapons needs more proof and substance.

So this did not origante from tom heneghen but from a "maybe" bush defector. I will cover Tom Heneghan in a moment also.

[mountain_man]

66. who is carlos ledher?

carlos ledher rivas is a half german and colombian drug dealer who grew up in america not colombia.

he was not really excepted by Pablo escobar or the others.

I read the book by rodney stitch defrauding of america were he outlines some of the history of ledher.

the book metion that the CIA paid farc 1$ million to kidnap the daughter ochoa and carlos ledher. she was flown in by the cia to a hiding place. fabio ochoa became the treasurer of the medillin cartel. this act unified all the trafickers.

the kidnapped ochoa daughter was supposedly married illegally to spy master theodore shacklely.

It does mention the cia fly ledher to safety. He claim he miracously escaped.

also in the book other agents claim that they spotted carlos ledher on a zapata oil oiltanker. he was protected by dea agents and was deal dope with a farc leader (belonging to the group of his so called captures). zapata oil is own by george bush sr.

(carlos after being arrest) made contact with aides to Vice President George Bush, who had run the Central Intelligence Agency during the early years of the cartel. Over the next 18 months, senior officials from the FBI, CIA and other investigatory agencies interviewed Lehder.(he also visited personally noriega in prison when he threaten to spill the beans on bush).

was bush afraid of the zapata oil-ledher connection comming out. defrauding of america claim that the mossad was in on it too. and the ledher or somebody was put the star of david on the cocaine shipments.
this is interesting because ledher is suppose to be a nazi simpethizer.
he true may be one and is being used as a point guy.

defrauding america also mention that after ledher was fire from the drug operation in the bahamas the agent meet vesco and paid castro X amount of dollars for carlos's release. The book red cocaine stated that cuban intelligence had thouroghly been penetrated in 1960 by the soviet kgb. so castro through out his reign was more of figurehead.

would this explain why there are so many russians in the aig-carlos story that ruppert broke.

here is an excerpt from micheal rupport;

I went up to San Francisco a day early. With the Secretary of State documents in hand I went to see what I could find out about Capital Investment Group (CIG). Its address, 601 Gateway Blvd. is a new, large, approximately ten story office building near the San Francisco airport. The incorporation papers showed that CIG had been there for at least three years until their corporate filings ceased in 1997. I poked around until I found someone on the building staff who had been there in the mid 90s.
"Oh yeah," said the building employee who asked that I not use his name. "I remember the Russians. There was Boris and Vladimir and Natasha." He laughed. "Real thick accents. They treated the eighth floor like it was Russian territory. Everyone knew about the Russians. The FBI came and were investigating them. They said they might be KGB."

another ruppert excerpt"

Capital Investment Group having been founded by her in 1987 and agreed with the statement that she and Lehder were the only shareholders. An entry indicating that in 1995 she had been instrumental in negotiating Lehder's release from the Bureau of Prisons drew a nod. She made no comment about the fact that the report showed that she had been investigated by the FBI, Department of Justice, Department of Defense and the CIA by means of traditional investigation, "wiretaps" and informants." She also did not question the fact that the report showed her and Lehder as having multiple residences in Oakland California; San Francisco; Boca Chica, Florida; Salinas Ecuador; and Great Exuma, the Bahamas. Her net worth was conservatively "estimated" at $7,369,024.

another except by rupport that originated with george taylor;

"While in the Unit, Lehder developed new drug smuggling plans for after his release. He talked of a new frontier in the former republics of the Soviet Union. He and Gravano talked of forming a partnership in a new cartel using money given to them by our government. They asked me to join them and I turned them down.'

my analsys ledher is already connected to the russians through out the 80's he already probaly had the connections with russian based on the russian connection that he met in cuba. george taylor was restating something that was already probaly a fact.

I will show in my next post that beside being connent to zapata he has even closer connection to the CIA.

[mountain_man]

67. were people from the ledher drug operation tied to the first WTC attack!

carlos suppose wife was a relative of norman menese!

"I also had numerous telephone conversations with Coral Talavera Baca, the girlfriend of Rafael Cornejo, who was a relative and part of Norwin Meneses' drug trafficking organization, as well as a long-time business partner of Danilo Blandon, another central figure in the "Dark Alliance" series.

http://www.house.gov/waters/31698pr.htm.

this is interesting because a relative of one of the key figures in gary webbs la story help get carlos out of jail. she would have had to work with sandra levy who was jewish. why would a jew be helping a know nazi drug deal get out of jail. I don't have the answer to this one!

excerpt from michail ruppert.

I remember that I was introduced to her by Fourmy," says the retired DEA agent who has served in Peru and Central America. "She said, straight out, that she was engaged to Carlos LehderÉ I couldn't believe it! What was she doing here? I asked her, 'What's Carlos doing now?' and she said, 'Oh, he's out of jail and selling drugs to the Russians for the CIA.'

"I remember that I was introduced to her by Fourmy," says the retired DEA agent who has served in Peru and Central America. "She said, straight out, that she was engaged to Carlos LehderÉ I couldn't believe it! What was she doing here? I asked her, 'What's Carlos doing now?' and she said, 'Oh, he's out of jail and selling drugs to the Russians for the CIA.'
"I mean it just knocked me for a loop. It scared me. And then the next day she was out by the pool. Patrick was there. Joe Bosco was there. She came down and sat with us. She was quite open and she said that her company -- a company she owned that I later found out was Capital Investment Group -- was owned by five of the largest drug dealers in South America. She was very agitated at the government and she said that the government had contacted Carlos and told him to 'put that bitch on a leash.' That, said Castillo, was probably because of her openness in talking about the fact that Carlos was out of prison and her public appearances with Webb. I have confirmed that Baca made at least one other public appearance with Webb at a book signing in Los Angeles.
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refeal cornejo was one the key men in peruvian operation. (underground empire). he was a lawyer. in the same book it also tied ledher to the peruvian operation.

to bring the story home. carlos was tied to ronald lister who in turn was connected to american intellegence agencies. he was tied to the menese-blandon operations wich was part of carlos network.

here is an excerpt:
In his Dark Alliance series, Webb reported that Lister claimed to work for the CIA when cops raided his home for drugs in October 1986, a statement the mainstream media dismissed as a desperate attempt by a “con artist” to escape punishment for his drug dealing. But during that raid, cops uncovered a heap of documents supporting Lister’s claim. Among them were a 1982 proposal by Lister’s Newport Beach-based security firm to provide security to El Salvador’s Ministry of Defense and a list of business contacts that included Salvadoran death-squad founder Roberto D’Aubuisson and Bill Nelson, then-vice president of security for the Irvine-based construction giant Fluor Corp.

According to a 1998 U.S. Justice Department Office of the Inspector General report, the FBI investigated Lister five times in the mid-1980s. One probe involved the alleged sale of missiles to Iran. Another centered on the illegal transfer of weapons between Saudi Arabia and El Salvador. In a third investigation, Lister testified for the FBI about a covert-arms pipeline allegedly directed by Iran-contra co-conspirators Richard Secord and Oliver North. The FBI claims it dropped those investigations because it could find no evidence Lister ever worked for North or the CIA (see “Crack Cop,” July 13, 2001).
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my analsys is that he was tied to scot weekly. he work for the pentegon. last time I checked the pentagon was part of the us government. he was also tied to nelson was tied to the CIA.

Scot Weekly may have ties with first wtc attack.

"tracks in the snow" may 1997
http://www.csun.edu/CommunicationStudies/ben/news/cia/ceppos/970522.law.html
(excerpt)
David Scott Weekly was first profiled in these pages when Lister's notes were released last year. That story was based largely on interviews with Bo Gritz, Weekly's sometime partner in paramilitary operations, as well

as records from a 1987 Oklahoma City trial in which Weekly was convicted of smuggling C-4 explosives onto two civilian flights.

I go into more detail later
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
so here is a connection between the cia and ledher and events leading up to 911.

next I would like to go into the gambino thing and 911.

[mountain_man]

68. are dancing isreali really tied to al_cokieda? what the real story?

the_brain claims the the dancing isrealis were tied to Orgad-Zarger-Gravano network.

this is false.

jacob Orgad, ilan zarger, and sammy the bull connected in the ectascy trade is a fact.

The scion of a family of (jewish) Moroccan immigrants to Israel, Orgad arrived in the United States about two decades ago, becoming a U.S. citizen under the name of Tony Evans in 1995. Investigations of his background in Israel turned up evidence of a brother, Zohar, with a police record in Israel, but nothing on Orgad per se, leading Customs to suspect for a time that perhaps the name Jacob Orgad might have been an alias as well.

www.jewishjournal.com/home/searchview.php?id=7249

Cookie Orgad, according to the U.S. Attorney’s Office, had forged ties with the New York-based trafficking group led by organized crime figure Ilan Zarger, who had sold 40,000 pills to the Arizona-based organization led by Salvatore (Sammy the Bull) Gravano, a former underboss of the Gambino crime family.

www.jewishjournal.com/home/searchview.php?id=7249

Orgad’s credit card statements, say Customs investigators, show that he spent hundreds of thousands of dollars a month flying from homes in Los Angeles, New York and Miami, to tend to his business interests in Las Vegas, Phoenix and Austin, and as far afield as Paris, Luxembourg, Amsterdam and Tel Aviv.

www.jewishjournal.com/home/searchview.php?id=7249

Orgad was partner with Oded Tuito who was the real brains of the isreali mafia in the ectacy trade in america. Tuito was here first and Orgad join him. Tuito controlled the ectascy market in florida were the isreal art students were underdrug servaillence.

Oded tuito in my opinion should be look into more the Jacob Orgad when trying to get to the bottom of the isreali art students ectascy spy network.

the dancing isreali are reported in the same story. but I haven't found any connection to the orgad/tuito-gravono ectascy ring and them. I found other things wich I will report later.

law inforcement investigating orgad-gravano ectacy ring ran into problems of security links. One of the companies that they thought to be responsible was Comverse the irseali based company the was contracted to american police force dealing with their communication.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
And in New York, Cookie was frequently seen at the fancy flesh pits with Sholam Weiss, a New York–based Israeli plumbing magnate who would later be convicted, along with John Gotti Jr., in a $450 million life-insurance scam and sentenced to 845 years in prison, the longest federal sentence in U.S. history.
http://www.julianrubinstein.com/xgod.html

Orgad was also directly connect to gambinos and cocaine.

the alliance between carlos and gravano maybe an extention of something that was already there.

next I will go into the gambino venezuela thing and hopsicker assertions.

[mountain_man]

69. jeb bush possiblely compromised by carlos's heroin operation!

the_brain hints twards a posible german al-coke-aida connection between bohringer-ledher-atta. who all had some connection with germany.

I think this is interesting.

but I would like to expand the network a little to include the netherland.

Ruddi Dekker was stated to have drug charges by daniel hopsicker.

Carlos Ledher had ties to netherland also.

excerpt here.

Before Lehder, Norman’s Cay was a popular anchorage for visiting yachts. It was developed in the early 1970s as a small residential community with a clubhouse and marina. But in 1978 a Bahamian company called International Dutch Resources began buying up land there. IDR was set up for Lehder by a regular trust company in Nassau, which conveniently managed his working capital.
badgals-radio.com/?p=632

carlos's boss in the bahamas had ties to romy. romy dealt drugs from morrocco the same place were jacob orgad had originated from. romy dealt with the pakistani around the time of the formation of al Qaida. he dealt in hashish.

romy partner was kassir who is directly tied to terrorism of blowing up planes at least twice. he is also tied to oliver north.
he had ties to carlos's other boss pablo escobar. (small world)

this indirectly ties carlos with al caida in the 80's.

oded tuito drug network was out of the netherlands. atta and some of his friends had links to the netherlands.

the gambinos are on record of going to venezuala since 1961. they begin to set up business and deal in cocaine. (read sterling book I will get the title later). the headquarter was in aruba.

defrauding america stated that after Ledher was "fired". the zapata oiltankers move to venezuala near aruba.

I believe carlos ledher network was always tide to gambinos.

noriega work under carlos ledher. the gambinos had direct ties to noriega. this was stated in defrauding of america also and michael ruppert on his story on albert carone. mike harari a mossad basicly controlled noriega.

I about ready flush carlos ledher nazi credential down the toilet.

Hopsicker points out the barry seales flew for canadian mafia and was make heroin deals with manny gambino.

Barry's contact man in canada was willie obront. we brag that he controlled all the pills in florida. willie obront is jewish. he is also a supplier to the gambinos.

the pills were manufacture in china and shipped to columbia. barry seales and other then flew them into florida. barry seales and many other goverment intelligence operative when to jail in this scandal.

I believe the isreali art students ectacy drug ring in florida my have in part originated from willie obront drug ring. I believe the mossad contacted jewish organize crime figures and connected spy operation with it. Oded tuito control the market in new york and florida. tuito and orgad maybe the ones to look at.

the_brain reference skonick that jeb bush was part partners with carlos ledher starting in the 70's. jeb as claim in the story of tom heneghan wich origined from tom de venice, would adventually pardon ledher.

Question if Ledher is proven to be tied to heroin in skyway flight school, and jeb pardon him. is this the reason way jeb was in such a hurry to get all of the documents out of the flight school?

let see jeb tied to carlos venzuela in the 70's

jeb tied to carlos and venezuela in 2000.

jeb was suppose to be tied to anti-catro cubans.(who also had drug ties)

carlos was tied to russians and cubans, a conflicted of intrest?

this could be checkmate for jeb.

[Name removed]

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