World Trade Center History (interesting fact sheet).

[blazinjason]

by David Johnson and Shmuel Ross


World Trade Center Stats

200,000 tons of steel
425,000 cubic yards of concrete
43,600 windows
12,000 miles of electric cables
Had its own zip code, 10048
Each Tower:
Had 110 floors
208 ft by 208 ft at base
Weighed 500,000 tons
1,368 ft high (north tower)
1,362 ft high (south tower)
Contained 198 miles of heating ducts
97 elevators for passengers, 6 for freight
The twin towers of the World Trade Center were more than just buildings. They were proof of New York's belief in itself. Built at a time when New York's future seemed uncertain, the towers restored confidence and helped bring a halt to the decline of lower Manhattan. Brash, glitzy, and grand, they quickly became symbols of New York.

Rockefeller Brainchild
The World Trade Center was conceived in the early 1960s by the Downtown-Lower Manhattan Development Association to revitalize the seedy radio row dominated by electronic stores. Chase Manhattan Bank chairman David Rockefeller, founder of the development association, and his brother, New York governor Nelson Rockefeller, pushed hard for the project, insisting it would benefit the entire city.
In 1962, the Port Authority of New York and New Jersey began plans to build the center. Minoru Yamasaki and Associates of Michigan was hired as architect. Eventually, Yamasaki decided on two huge towers. Critics charged that a modern monolith would rob New York of character, ruin the skyline, disrupt television reception, and strain city services. However, the project was approved and construction began in 1966.
In order to create the 16-acre World Trade Center site, five streets were closed off and 164 buildings were demolished. Construction required the excavation of more than 1.2 million cubic yards of earth, which was used to create 23.5 acres of land along the Hudson River, now part of Battery Park City in lower Manhattan. During peak construction periods, 3,500 people worked at the site. A total of 10,000 people worked on the towers; 60 died during its construction.
Instant Landmarks

The north tower was opened in Dec. 1970 and the south tower in Jan. 1972; they were dedicated in April 1973. They were the world's tallest buildings for only a short time, since the Sears Tower in Chicago was completed in May 1973. However, the towers were ranked as the fifth and sixth tallest buildings in the world at the time of their destruction on Sept. 11, 2001.

more

[mirandapriestly]

1. This caught my eye

In 1993 terrorists drove a truck packed with 1,100 lbs of explosives into the basement parking garage at the World Trade Center. Despite the size of the blast—it left a crater 22 ft wide and five stories deep—only six people were killed and 1,000 injured

But, sporadic kerosene fires bring both of them (and a third building to boot) all the way to the ground.

[LARED]

2. sporadic kerosene fires?

It'sa amazing isn't it. Those tiny waste basket sized fires mamaged to bring down the towers.

Like this sporadic fire seen here.

[DoYouEverWonder]

10. Someone needs to make up their mind

what time that pic of the fire in the corner of WTC 2 was taken. The one above says 9:14AM, the one below says 9:52AM. I doubt if the fires would have stayed the same for over 1/2 hour.

[greyl]

14. The fires didn't stay the same.

The wax and wane of the fires can be confirmed by watching videos. Don't forgot how much area is burning behind the face of the building.

[DoYouEverWonder]

35. Depends

on what is in the area behind the face of the building. There was a lot of empty space on the upper levels of the towers that were just floor slabs and open ceilings because they had never been finished for offices. What is there to burn on a floor that's never been or only partially occupied?

[vincent_vega_lives]

3. Your lack of understanding

does not a sinister conspiracy make.

[mirandapriestly]

4. The Bush administration is so happy to know

you "understand" what they want you to think. I have seen pictures and video of buildings destroyed by fire and this was not destroyed by fire.

[vincent_vega_lives]

15. Glad to know you are on the case

Just which part of the "Bush administraion" is happy about what I think?

[mirandapriestly]

5. Let me help you understand

THIS is what a building look likes that is encased in flames. This is NOT what the wtc looked like.

[AlwaysQuestion]

6. Thank You!!

Guess that's why a picture is worth a thousand words.......I still can't believe that there is anyone out there who seriously thinks all three buildings came tumbling down because of fire. Doncha have to once in a while simply rely on your five senses and tap into ....now what do they call that innate thingy............ah yes, plain common sense?

[greyl]

8. Where did you get the idea that common sense is so cool?

AlwaysQuestion: "Doncha have to once in a while simply rely on your five senses and tap into ....now what do they call that innate thingy............ah yes, plain common sense?"

Are you suggesting we should smell the photos instead of examining the evidence using critical thinking? ;)
Unlike Bush, I think it would be best if we weren't afraid of complicated answers.

"The arguments by which Einstein developed relativity are not mathematically difficult, but in order to follow them one must follow logic even when it seems to contradict common sense...Good thinking usually moves forward on two legs, with logic and intuition both playing their part." (Robert H. March Physics for Poets)

When common sense is wrong

http://motls.blogspot.com/2005/08/common-sense-and-science.html

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Counter-intuitive

[wildbilln864]

9. is someone....

else's opinions all you have!? Again!?

any comments of the OP?

[greyl]

13. No.

Where did you get the idea that providing multiple sources to support ones pov is something to be ridiculed?
You may want to rethink that one.

[Anarcho-Socialist]

12. "I still can't believe that there is anyone..."

Yeah what would structural engineers know :eyes:

[AlwaysQuestion]

18. Try just a dollop of plain common sense just to get you started.

Sorry, you and a few others here can't get it on with plain common sense. I can see you and your ilk have difficulty with that lost art. Too bad. Your resources are too limiting.

Every day we all need to make all sorts of decisions quickly. I don't have time to research everything, so I use my life's experiences, make careful observations, tap into former ones; check a few facts, engage what senses are pertinent to the issue; check to see if the whole picture raises any red flags; and damn it, before my dog has finished his pee, I've made a decision. And I get it right 90 percent of the time.

Yes, yes, there are still some decisions over which I have control that will have a lasting impact on my family or myself--these will require and do receive more effort on my part. However, these particular types of decisions are few and far between.

Now, let's turn to 911 over whose investigation I have no control and over whose investigation no one other than Bushco has any control. At least for the present, chicanery rules. Thus, I must rely even more heavily on..........PCS.

However much you protest to the contrary you don't have any better answers than I do. I'm going with the gut and the knowledge that there exists a host of convenient coincidences that together smell ever so vile....and you're dredging up your bevy of "experts" to back your theory that the official story is the right one. Straight away, I'm ahead of you. I'm going to be right more often than you because I know that governments conspire against their peoples all the time. As I have noted before, it is the RULE and not the exception. Get that straight and you'll have more than half the battle licked.

So, from the get-go, my odds are better than yours if, in fact, you are arguing the government's position. Now I see that others have patiently gone and dredged up a stable of their "experts" to back the claim that the official story is hogwash. Each side cites chapter and verse and the debate drones on seemingly forever. But I have neither the patience nor the inclination to get caught up in something neither of us can PROVE definitively one way or t'other. So, I use the next best thing, plain common sense (pcs) and work the odds.

Thus, in the case of 911 I engaged my pcs based on a lifetime of experience relating to politics, tapped into some history I know about the present and past governments of the U.S. and others--looking for the scope of past transgressions; checking a few points of interest I consider pertinent (e.g., strenuous opposition to a full fledged investigation; failure to answer satisfactorily the few questions that were put to the administration; finally relenting under duress to allow a quasi investigation to go forward and then under-funding it; failure to take the oath to tell the truth; failure to appear alone before the commission to answer questions but insisting instead to undergo questioning only in tandem with the V.P, etc.). Then I questioned motivation and the many anomalies in foreign policy of this administration and previous ones which have never been satisfactorily explained. Then I used my sense of sight by taking repeated looks at how the buildings collapsed (even as I mused in disbelief the administration-claimed inability for the greatest nation (so-called) to defend itself); and ....Yep, I formulated a conclusion which states that the official story on 911 is a fabrication of gargantuan proportions. Do I know what actually happened? Shucks, no! But then neither do you. I can, however,recognize the smell of rotten eggs. And my friend, I can smell the stench clear up here.

Then when I focussed on those three WTC buildings, I concluded that they were somehow made to implode. How, I haven't the foggiest. I do know that Whoever was behind the atrocity had to make certain those buildings were going down, down, down. And they couldn't depend on fire to do the job. Nosirreebob! And of course what followed 911 supports my educated guess that it was an inside job. You see, two planes with a few hundred passengers jetting into the WTC causing a fire well contained and killing a few hundred or so building inhabitants is, yeah, an event....hell, I'll give you a most unpleasant event....but justification for going to war? Nah! Bushco needed something bigger--much bigger--something that would capture the imaginations of proud, patriotic, Americans who've had heaping helpings of violence dished out to them for decades. Yep. It had to be visually spectacular! And wasn't it, though?! Those inside perpetrators did themselves proud. I know I was at once suitably impressed, mesmerized and dumbfounded,

Under superficial questioning, the WH claimed with puritanical innocence that it had had no forewarning of an impending invasion of USA soil. Golley, gee, Miss Molly, who'd have ever thunk? It just took them by complete surprise. Yet, within a mere few days of 911 the administration had solved the crime. Astonishing! It was with much pride and fanfare that it was announced that the horrors of 911 had been orchestrated by OBL, (son of a Bush family friend) known for previous terrorist acts. Moreover, the names of the "actual perpetrators" were published . Seems the evil doers were really keen on letting their identities be known (by leaving right "out there" all manner of "evidence") so they could implicate their fellow terrorists and make them easy targets for the American military machine to pummel them. Oooookkay. Works for me, no matter that most of the so-called perpetrators were Arabs and many were later found quite alive in various parts of the world. Such a pesky detail. Independent thinking is un-American. Please, someone tell us what to think. And on queue, CNN was up to bat--well, not really, they too thought none of this important enough to question in any serious way. End of that story. Next? Ah yes, next? That be the government's story. Yes, we can flog that.

But why for gawd's sakes would these terrorists want to attack the U.S. in the first place? And Bush with a straight face claimed before Congress that the evil doers attack us because they envy our freedoms. Knowing that real freedoms had been eroding for many Americans and knowing that the American people are some of the most propagandized people in the world today, I roared with laughter but hoping against hope that there was a limit to what the people could be made to believe-that surely no one would buy into such idiocy. But alas, there was nary a titter at this absurd statement--nary a one. Fucking unreal. For lack of pcs, another missed opportunity to get things right.

And so, it wasn't long after that when the body bags began to be shipped home. Meanwhile, there was this overwhelming clamour for everyone to support the troops; don't question your president because to do so seriously puts into question your patriotism. Such unabashed hogwash!!!!! Moreover, there would be no video taping of flag-draped coffins. Maintain a positive attitude towards (illegally) invading another country. We'll countenance no nabobs of negativism (yet another Republican catch phrase) Keep everyone in the dark. From this vantage point, it was wholesale propaganda which because of lack of pcs was allowed to flourish unbridled.

And yet another time I was right. Bushco has since reined you guys in but smartly. What freedoms do you have left? Democracy? Just how delusional do you types get? Be sure to watch your step, keep that flag flying, keep that hand over your heart, parrot the Pledge (another pathetic joke), keep consuming, buy your gas guzzlers, turn the TV up louder; engage your minds with nothingness and check your common sense at any door through which you may want to pass. And don't pass judgment on this administration until you've checked with the right experts.

Yep, Bushco was so completely "convinced" that it had the entire situation in hand that it dispensed with what should have been an automatic, all out, indepth investigation of the crime scene with hordes of investigators from a wide range of disciplines swarming the site and doing whatever was necessary to come up with an all-telling report of findings. Surprise, surprise, not only did this not take place as a matter of course, the Bushco administration fought tooth and nail to prevent ANY investigation citing something like...................in the interests of national security--that bandied about term that no longer has any meaning whatever except to telescope to the world that the government is up to no good.


And so it was that the Americans set off post haste to bomb the hell out of Afghanistan and try to capture that OBL bastard. Why, the whole 911 thingy could have been wrapped up very quickly.....but alas, the Americans couldn't find the elusive Bin Laden. Just too difficult a task for the country which boasts at being the best in every thing. Or just perhaps, maybe, wink, wink, Bushie didn't want to find OBL. What a concept? What information could OBL come up with to cast aspersions on...............ta da.............the Bushcos. Nah, the Americans so revere the office of President that to question the presence of a red herring would be un-American. Hmmmm, ever heard of un-British, un-Australian, un-French, un-Canadian.......but un-American really does have a ring to it, no? And who among you can afford to be labelled un-American? Crazy much.


Then there was the Bushco decision to change the course of the "war" from Afghanistan to Iraq. Top dog investigators from the U.N. had been out looking to find Saddam's stashes of WMD.......and coming up empty....time and time again. But no matter, Bushco had his own sources......sources he could rely on to tell him the "truth" about those WMDs which were putting the U.S. in grave, immediate danger. Sure! L'il ol' Iraq was an imminent threat to the great U.S. of A. Not China. Not Russia. Not North Korea. No, no, no............embargo impoverished, starving ...land of oil--Iraq. I can well remember laughing my ass off at that one. I mean it was so ludicrous that any one buying into it was a brick short of a load and definitely not engaging their...............PCS. Hell, I didn't go running off to check what the experts were saying or not saying. And I was...........damn.........right again! I'm telling you, PCS works.

And then the fun began in earnest.

All right already, said the Bush administration, we can't find weapons of mass destruction in Iraq. Well, not to worry cuz the real reason we're attacking Iraqis is that we wanna bestow upon them freedom...freedom from that dictator, Saddam. Gee whiz batman, whatta revelation. Guess when Bush Sr was dealing with SH the latter had been a good boy and was just a Johnny Come Lately to the dictatorship business. And now we were told who the REAL enemy was-not OBL who earlier the administration had said orchestrated the invasion of the U.S. back on 911-- no, it was this "new" dictator, Saddam. And the Propaganda Machine kept parroting this nonsense, but what was worse, so many Americans were buying. PCS was just no where to be found. And hundreds of thousands of Iraqis went on to lose their lives so Bush could try to democracize them. Bush, ever the altruist. Praise be to Bush and his sidekick, God!

And then Saddam is found, with cameras poised to capture the momentous event--a dissheveled heap of a creature emerging from what appeared to be a small, poorly dug-out cave. It was a sight. And then he was hauled off to prison where he was subjected to a body search, including the humiliating search of his mouth....no doubt showing the world that they were looking for rotten teeth to fix. Nice touch. Humiliation is good. And it wasn't long after that when cameras were present once again to videotape Americans torturing and humiliating Iraqi prisoners en masse--a veritable picture of democracy in action. I viewed only one photo and nearly puked. I could look at no others but I did file the image in my noggin' for future reference in the employment of pcs. You'd have been wise to do the same thing.

But Bushco despite spending untold billions if not trillions of tax payers dollars on a preemptive war with Iraq remains steadfast in its dogged attempt to fulfill its prime objective which has nothing whatever to do with with spreading democracy or with anything else he has verbalized to the American people. Of course there is no conspiracy to defraud and steal from American coffers and American homes wherein the youth of America reside--albeit thousands of them gone forever now. What a preposterous notion! Check with the Bushie experts. What are they claiming?

Hell there is no conspiracy to prevent the average American from having access to excellent health care at an affordable price. Nor is the government conspiring against the black people many of whom reside in ghettos and in areas like New ORLEANS which to this day remains a disaster area. As taxes for the rich are reduced, the heavy tax load falls increasingly upon the middle and lower classes. The rich have tax write-offs in spades. The poor can't write anything off. But there's no conspiracy to make the rich richer and the poor poorer. The fact that your elected officials have become a class unto themselves, so much so that they pretty much have to kill the parish priest before being charged with a crime. Getting a conviction is lengthy and expensive and then there's always the presidential pardon. In the meantime, they enjoy salaries and benefits that you can only dream about. No conspiracy there to keep the peasants down by ensuring they have insufficient resources to fight the system. And the war on drugs is no conspiracy. Just because a multi-billion dollar prison industry is built on the success of the drug trade doesn't mean the government is behind it all, encouraging it to flourish whilst at the same time condemning it.

Hell, your government loves you and is doing everything humanly possible to make this a better world in which to live. Only a certified nutcase would believe a government would conspire against its citizenry. Government, U.S. style is government the good. Bull shit!

And now, dear little ones, of course it was those nasty widdle fires that decimated all three WTC buildings. Again, shit happens. Them crazy Muslims from the ME succeeded in screwing the mighty military machine of the U.S. of A. rendering it helpless to save a mere 3000 of its citizenry. Now, if you really believe that, ya gotta hope to hell that the big guns like China, Russia, India and even North Korea don't get it into their heads to come after the U.S.

And may I say to the many Americans here on DU who clearly have the PCS gene and use it liberally, I implore you to do your best to reach your compatriots to rethink what's going on down there. While I do engage in rattling the cages of the U.S. right and even some of the moderates (but only out of necessity), I along with a great many people in the remaining western nations want your country to prevail. It is in our best interests that you do......but damn, some Americans just gotta wake up--and SOON! Only you have the power to influence your leaders...but I think you're fast losing that ability given the many freedoms that have been taken away from you (albeit this will need to be tested in the courts).

At this point we are not really headed towards a happily ever after conclusion. Quite the contrary.

And if that wasn't upsetting enough, we now have to contend with Harper and his Harpies. And how many morons do you think we had to have show up at the polls to ensure such an outcome? Too many by half. But if you'll allow a smidge of Canadian pride to come through, our clown can actually sling together a coherent sentence. So there!! :)

[Anarcho-Socialist]

19. "I'm going with the gut..."

Isn't that what Truthiness is?

As always the rejection of expert opinion in favour of sophomoric interpretations of world events and epistemology leave me cold.

[AZCat]

20. Pretty much.

You miss the point - acceptance of sophomoric interpretations means you don't have to go through the trouble of learning all that science and engineering crap - it's the lazy man's way to a conclusion (though frequently the wrong one, IMO).

[vincent_vega_lives]

21. What you are basically saying

is that you begin with a preconceived notion, and make the facts fit it.

[AlwaysQuestion]

23. I've got to move on......

so you guys just continue to yak it up. You obviouosly derive great enjoyment from the exercise. But in the final analysis pcs will get you there in a fraction of the time with an exceedingly high rbi. Admittedly my method won't work in formal debate with all its many conventions. But hot damn, for the average bloke it will win the day 9 times out of 10. People just have to tune out the noise, get grounded, ask questions, think and eventually they will develop an excellent intuitive sense that will hold them in good stead. And that's the truth! :)

.

[vincent_vega_lives]

17. PLANE common sense

Convenient that you omit the 767s hitting two of the buildings and the third getting pummeled by one of the first two!!!

[wildbilln864]

7. Bravo Miranda!

and guess what! It did not collapse like the WTCs!

fuzzy math: 2 planes+2 buildings=3 collapses? Why didn't building 6 go down after being pummeled by the same 110 building tower? It was between the towers and #7! It was damaged more than #7!

and #6, alwaysquestion, you are so right! It's sad actually!

[Taxloss]

25. The Windsor Tower did not fully collapse because it included a

"safety floor" designed to prevent progressive collapse. The WTC did not include safety floors, and NIST's post-9/11 recommendations for preventing collapses like the WTC included ... safety floors!

WTC7's diesel tanks were a deciding factor in its collapse, as has been discussed here again and again.

[DoYouEverWonder]

29. WTC 1 & 2

did have floors that were specifically designed to hold extra weight. For example, the 81st floor had beams instead of trusses and thicker columns to hold the extra weight of the elevator hoists. Other floors in the towers had extra bracing and steel to accommodate mechanical equipment. Unfortunately, these differences were not accounted for in the NIST models.

In regards to WTC7, all of the large storage tanks were found intact. However two of the tanks were empty and no evidence of spillage was found around or under the slabs they sat on.

[Taxloss]

30. That was to accommodate designed-in weight,

not compunded weight resulting from collapse. Safety floors are designed to carry weight far beyond designed-in specification. The 20th storey of the Windsor tower was heavily over-spec, built in reinforced concrete. The only floors to collapse on the Windsor tower were the ones with perimeter steel columns, just like the WTC.

[DoYouEverWonder]

36. According to the NIST report

the 81st floor of WTC2 failed first. This was one of the reinforced floors in the building. What additional weight was there to accommodate if this is the floor that failed first? The weight distribution didn't change until the collapse started.

[Taxloss]

42. Firstly, reinforcement alone does not make it a technical floor.

Secondly, its floorplates failed first, in the fire - progressive collapse then proceeded downwards, 80, 79 etc. with no technical floors to stop it. So you're right that no extra weight may have been present (apart from airplane debris, I suppose, and whatever might have fallen from above during the fire), but that would make no difference as the progressive collapse would be taking place underneath it.

[Make7]

37. The 81st floor(s) did use trusses.

You have said several times now that the 81st floor did not use trusses. (here, here, and here) I don't recall seeing you provide any quotes or links to support those statements.

NIST has made several references to the trusses on floor 81. For example:

E.4.2 Modifications and Repairs Made to WTC 2

   -snip-

Structural Members that were Reinforced

Members were reinforced on the following floors during the following years:

1. Floor 96, 1993 (a number of floor trusses and their connections were reinforced in the northeast quadrant of the building)
2. Floor 81, 1991 (two-way floor trusses were reinforced in the area occupied by UPS)

http://wtc.nist.gov/NISTNCSTAR1-1C.pdf  (pdf page 49)

Findings for Global Analysis With Impact Damage:
Structural Response of Floor System to Fire (2)

WTC 2 Floor 81

• Damage to truss fireproofing was extensive near the impact area and across the east side. The maximum floor deflections were 24 in. for realistic fires.
  
• As slab temperatures rose, the slab expanded on the order of 2 to 4 in., and pushed outward on the perimeter columns. The exception was the southeast corner where failed truss connections at the core led to the floor system pulling inward on the perimeter columns.

http://wtc.nist.gov/media/P6StructFireResp&Collapse2.pdf  (pdf page 52)

Also if you look at the images of their modeling on pdf page 50 from the presentation above, it clearly shows trusses for the floor system outside the core area.

NIST appears to have proceeded with their analysis based on the information that the 81st floor used trusses. So I am wondering what source(s) you have to support your statements that there weren't any trusses on the 81st floor.

- Make7

[DoYouEverWonder]

38. It appears that is one of the big problems with the NIST study

They didn't have good data to begin with and the engineers complained to Congress that the PA withheld a lot of the documents and info about the building that they requested. Because of these problems, the engineers had to make do with the info that they had. They based their analysis assuming that all the floors above were similiar to the 78th floor, when in fact they were not. From what I can see they also missed the fact that the stairwells were not even in the same places on every floor.

May 5, 2002

The elevator machine room also may have helped contain the upward force of the explosion, protecting Stairway A when it was in the building's center above the 82nd floor. To hold the 600,000-pound weight of the elevator hoists, the beams supporting the 81st floor were twice as big and four times as heavy as those on the 79th floor.

Even the collapse of the two towers did not destroy the massive Otis 339HT machines. The machines were 8 feet tall and 13-feet-by-8-feet wide. Some were found intact in the wreckage at Ground Zero, still bolted to the specially reinforced beams that held them. Investigators at first mistook them for jet engines.

http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/2002/05/17/stairway.htm

[Bolo Boffin]

39. That post is proof you've never read the NIST report.

You couldn't misrepresent it so if you had.

[Make7]

40. You do realize that every floor used beams within the core area, right?

Edited to add: "(for almost their entire length)"

You also must realize that the elevators and stairwells (for almost their entire length) were inside the core area. Isn't it possible that the floor outside the core area used trusses, as reported by NIST, and the beams within the core area were oversized and reinforced to accommodate extra loads?

DoYouEverWonder wrote:

It appears that is one of the big problems with the NIST study, they didn't have good data to begin with and the engineers complained to Congress that the PA withheld a lot of the documents and info about the building that they requested. Because of these problems, the engineers had to make do with the info that they had. They based their analysis assuming that all the floors above were similiar to the 78th floor, when in fact they were not. From what I can see they also missed the fact that the stairwells were not even in the same places on every floor.

Where are you getting your information? NIST has the original design drawings for the buildings - yet you seem to believe they were unaware of the differences between floors of the towers? Are you basing these assertions on what has been reported by NIST, or is the source a third-party?

Do you seriously believe that USA Today has more information about the towers construction than NIST?

Documentary Information Received by NIST

December 2002

• The original design drawings (structural, architectural, mechanical, electrical, plumbing) and the original fabrication and construction drawings for the WTC towers
  
• Tenant alteration application reports, including drawings and specifications, for the WTC towers and WTC 7, and associated construction audit reports
  
• Tenant design standards manuals for structural; architectural; heating, ventilating, and air-conditioning (HVAC); fire protection; plumbing; electrical; fire alarm; and construction review
  
• Emergency evacuation procedures manuals, including fire safety guide
  
• Operations manuals for the fire protection system, including sprinklers, standpipes, alarm system and communication protocols, and water and power supply
  
• Operations manuals for the HVAC systems
  
• Reports on facility condition surveys and structural integrity inspections for the WTC towers and WTC 7
  
• Recent inspection and maintenance reports for the elevators and escalators in the WTC towers; elevator numbering system
  
• Reports on pre-design tests of structural components, including dampers for the WTC towers
  
• Reports on wind tunnel tests of the WTC towers and wind speed measurements near the WTC site
  
• Reports on the 1993 bombing damage assessment and repairs, and documentation of changes made to the evacuation system after 1993
  
• Documents related to the location, approval, and inspection of fuel tanks in WTC 7
  
• Documents related to fire rating and fireproofing of structural steel members in the WTC towers
  
• Documents related to PANYNJ building and fire code requirements and practices
  
• Correspondence sent to the Occupational Safety and Health Administration regarding the evacuation experience of WTC occupants on September 11, 2001
  
• Documents related to the lease of the WTC towers by Silverstein Properties
  
• Reports prepared by McKinsey & Company for FDNY and NYPD
  
• Basic FDNY dispatch data, including time of dispatch and unit identification
  
• Firefighter fatality and injury data from FDNY

May 2003

• More than 1,000 hours of recordings made by PANYNJ on September 11, 2001 (from 0705 through 1900 hours) of telephone calls, as well as police, fire, operations, maintenance, security, and other radio transmissions from four distinct locations
  
• Personal injury data from FDNY and Port Authority of New York and New Jersey Police Department (PAPD)
  
• Handwritten notes on the events of September 11, 2001, by PAPD staff
  
• Emergency responder fatality data for FDNY, NYPD, and PAPD
  
• WTC list of tenants with contact information from PANYNJ and Silverstein
  
• WTC list of occupants issued security badges by PANYNJ
  
• Report on WTC smoke management system by Hughes Associates, Inc.
  
• Phase I and final reports on fire engineering of WTC steelwork by Buro Happold
  
• Transcripts of depositions by two PANYNJ staff in the WTC insurance litigation
  
• Documents, videos, and photographs related to the fireproofing of the WTC tower structures
  
• WTC floor plan for the fire alarm system and drawings of WTC subgrade plumbing and city water main
  
• Information regarding building contents such as partitions and furnishings from a key WTC tower tenant, to characterize the types of combustibles and estimates of the mass loading in the region of the fires
  
• FDNY WTC incident summary, September 20, 2001
  
• FDNY reports on the fire history of WTC 1, 2, and 7 from 1970 to 2001
  
• FDNY reports related to inspections of WTC 1, 2, and 7 from 1999 to 2001
  
• FDNY policies and practices on operations specific to the WTC buildings and on accountability of firefighters at incidents
  
• FDNY information on dispatched units, apparatus, command posts, and staging areas
  
• FDNY information on number of command and company officers and firefighters operating in and around WTC 1, 2, and 7 with number of surviving personnel
  
• Detailed briefing on the NYPD communications system, including 9-1-1 system and radio networks

August 2003

• Design and structural calculations from Leslie E. Robertson Associates (LERA) for the WTC towers, including TV antenna, beams, and beam girders, as well as wind analysis and calculations
  
• Correspondence from LERA during the time of construction
  
• Laclede floor truss shop drawings (1,364 sheets) and other documents on steel and joints
  
• Information on steel from Nippon
  
• List of WTC drawings in possession of Yamasaki and Associates
  
• Information on the flammable contents of the American Airlines B-767 aircraft
  
• Information regarding building contents and floor layouts from some WTC tower and WTC 7 tenants
  
• Mechanical and electrical specifications for WTC 7
  
• Asbestos litigation documents from PANYNJ
  
• Underwriters Laboratories, Inc. (UL) test reports regarding spray-on fireproofing from supplier (Isolatek)
  
• Correspondence on the selection of W.R. Grace fireproofing products, test data, and UL design listings (W.R. Grace)
  
• Data on the WTC internal radio system and FDNY radio repeater from PANYNJ
  
• Some FDNY training practices for operations in high-rise buildings
  
• Global positioning system coordinates and map where human remains and equipment were located from FDNY
  
• Information on FDNY personnel killed on September 11, 2001, and map of fire and Emergency Management Services Command Post Locations
  
• NYPD internal communications concerning the terrorist attacks on WTC (43 cassette tapes)
  
• Disaster Response Plan, Patrol Guide Procedures, and other guides and manuals from NYPD, including the Unusual Occurrence Report on the 1993 WTC bombing
  
• A large portion of NYPD and FDNY extensive photographic and videographic collection
  
• Updated badge list of WTC occupants maintained by PANYNJ
  
• WTC fire safety and PA/FDNY WTC training videos and pre-September 11, 2001 WTC photographs

September 2003

• Information on the flammable contents of the United Airlines B-767 aircraft
  
• Documents from PANYNJ on accessibility for disabled persons, active fire protection systems, and adoption of revisions to NYC Building Code
  
• Elevator and escalator contract information from PANYNJ
  
• Status of changes to WTC towers (March 1973) from PANYNJ
  
• Transcripts from September 11 PAPD audiotapes, police reports, and PAPD special awards ceremony documents for September 11, 2001
  
• Additional documents from PANYNJ on asbestos litigation

October 2003

• Supporting documents for McKinsey & Company’s FDNY and NYPD studies
  
• Review of UL test reports regarding spray-on fireproofing from supplier (W.R. Grace)
  
• Information from Boeing on flammable contents of aircraft that contributed to fires

May 2004

• Review of NYC 9-1-1 tapes and logs, transcripts of about 500 first responder interviews with employees of the FDNY who were involved in WTC emergency response activities
  
• General description of WTC building systems and capital program
  
• WTC documents presented as exhibits in asbestos litigation
  
• Additional documents on WTC maintenance services, accessibility, elevators, code compliance, fire rating, fire detection system, fire alarm system, etc
  
• Photographs of WTC 7 construction project
  
• Architectural and HVAC drawings for WTC 7, including modifications
  
• Well in excess of 6,000 photographs representing more than 185 professional and amateur photographers. Organizations that have provided materials include FDNY, NYPD, Associated Press, Corbis, Reuters, The New York Times, The New York Daily News, and the Star Ledger. Many organizations have provided both published and unpublished photographs.
  
• In excess of 150 hours of videotapes from news media (NBC, CBS, ABC, CNN, and local New York stations WABC, WCBS, WNBC, WPIX, WNYW, and New York One), FDNY, NYPD, and more than 20 individuals. In many cases, the videos provide not only broadcast material (known as air checks), but also material that was recorded but not broadcast (known as outtakes).

http://wtc.nist.gov/media/docs_info_received.htm

- Make7

[DoYouEverWonder]

43. Of course

but not every floor had trusses.

This is a view of one of the mechanical floors (they were the only floors for which the prefabricated perimeter wall units were not staggered). The mechanical floors where not supported by trusses but by solid steel beams. Composite action between these beams and the concrete slab was by welded shear studs. The concrete slab was apparently considerably thicker than that of your average floor and specially reinforced with steel beams. Such floors were necessary to enable the towers to resist the significant lateral force of hurricane force winds.

We have the following quote from Engineering News-Record, January 1, 1970.

On the 41st and 42nd floors, both towers will house mechanical equipment. To accommodate the heavy loads, the floors are designed as structural steel frame slabs. All other floors from the ninth to the top (except for 75 and 76, which will also carry mechanical equipment) have typical truss floor joists and steel decking.

Typical office floors have 4-in. thick slabs of composite construction using top chord knuckles of the joists (trusses), which extend into the slab, as shear connectors. On mechanical floors, composite action is provided by welded stud shear connectors.

http://911research.wtc7.net/mirrors/guardian2/wtc/WTC_ch2.htm

In regards to the NIST report, here's Dr Astaneh-Asl, the structural engineer, who was one of the only ones who had access to the perisable data from the WTC before it was all carted off for recycling, testimony before Congress.

Testimony of
Dr. Abolhassan Astaneh-Asl Professor
Department of Civil and Environmental Engineering
University of California, Berkeley

My involvement in the investigation of the collapse of the World Trade Center is to conduct a reconnaissance of the collapsed and damaged WTC buildings and to collect the perishable data. The main objectives of the reconnaissance are to learn as much as possible from the actual collapsed structures and to document the failure modes and performance of the members and connections as well as quality of the construction. The purpose of collecting the perishable data is to collect material samples, photographs, videotapes, drawings and data on design, construction and collapse. Using the information collected and by conducting the necessary analyses and research, we try to establish probable causes of the collapse and most likely scenario for such collapse.

<snip>

So far, I have made three trips to NYC and spent a total of about 25 days there conducting field investigation and collecting data. Upon arrival to NYC on September 19, and after visiting Ground Zero and paying my respects and prayers to the victims, I started my reconnaissance and collection of the perishable data. I have collected some data on design and construction of the WTC and have met and discussed the case with the structural engineers who have designed the WTC Buildings. Thanks to cooperation of the HSNE recycling plant, I have been able to study the steel from the WTC before recycling. I have identified and saved some components of the structures that appear to have been subjected to intense fire or impact of fast moving objects. Figures 1 through 4 show examples of inspected structures. These critical pieces are saved as perishable data and can be used in future research.

(Too bad he didn't save anything from WTC7)

<snip>

I wish I had more time to inspect steel structure and save more pieces before the steel was recycled. However, given the fact that other teams such as NIST, SEAONY and FEMA-BPAT have also done inspection and have collected the perishable data, it seems to me that collectively we may have been able to collect sufficient data. The main impediments to my work were and still are:

1. Not having a copy of the engineering drawings and design and construction documents.

2. Not having copies of the photographs and videotapes that various agencies might have taken during and immediately after the collapse.

<snip>

I have not been provided with the information made available to the FEMA Building Performance Assessment Team. This includes, videotapes and photographs taken on 9/11and the following days and copies of the engineering drawings. At this time, having the videotapes, photographs and copies of the drawings not only is useful, but also is essential in enabling us to conduct any analysis of the collapse and to formulate conclusions from our effort.

http://www.house.gov/science/full02/mar06/astaneh.htm


http://www.house.gov/science/full02/mar06/astaneh.htm

[Make7]

48. The 81st floor.

 

DoYouEverWonder wrote:

Of course, but not every floor had trusses.

I never said that they did. My first reply was in response to your statement: "...the 81st floor had beams instead of trusses...". That is simply not correct according to the NIST report - the 81st floor used both beams and trusses.

Regarding the information about beams from the USA Today article you previously posted:

Each tower had three stairways labeled A, B and C. On most floors, the stairways were about 30 feet apart in the core with the plumbing, elevators and other infrastructure. The building was 208 feet wide.

Stairway B went straight down, but stairways A and C left the core of the building twice to dodge elevator machine rooms: from the 76th through 82nd floors and the 42nd through 48th floors.

On the 82nd floor, Stairway A emptied into a 52-foot long corridor heading north, atop the elevator machine room on the floor below. The passage went through two doors, then headed west for 15 feet, where the stairwell resumed. The stairway ran down that north side of the building until the 76th floor, where another passageway led back to the center.

The detour around the 81st-floor elevator machine room proved to be a lifesaving coincidence when the jet struck the southeast side of the building. Nowhere in the tower was a stairway farther to the northwest than on the floors where it mattered most.

http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/2002/05/17/stairway.htm

That description seems to indicate that the elevator machine rooms were within the core area and the stairwells were actually redirected outside the core to get past them. Therefore when the article states later that "to hold the 600,000-pound weight of the elevator hoists, the beams supporting the 81st floor were twice as big and four times as heavy as those on the 79th floor", I believe it is referring to the beams inside the core where the elevator machine room was located.

Here are some diagrams from the NIST report showing the diversion of the stairwells in that area:

 

 

Your excerpt from 911research.wtc7.net would seem to contradict your previous claim that "the 81st floor didn't have trusses it had steel support beams".

On the 41st and 42nd floors, both towers will house mechanical equipment. To accommodate the heavy loads, the floors are designed as structural steel frame slabs. All other floors from the ninth to the top (except for 75 and 76, which will also carry mechanical equipment) have typical truss floor joists and steel decking.

http://911research.wtc7.net/mirrors/guardian2/wtc/WTC_ch2.htm

The 81st floor would fall within the "all other floors" category and therefore should have had "typical truss floor joists and steel decking."

It should be noted that the information quoted above from the ENR article is incorrect. According to diagrams in the NIST report, the floors with all beam construction from the 9th floor to the top were: 9, 41, 42, 43, 75, 76, 77, 107, 108, 109, 110, and the roof.

Regarding Dr. Abolhassan Astaneh-Asl's testimony before congress, I don't know if that has any relevance to what I thought we were discussing. He is complaining that he still did not have access to the same documents (videotapes and photographs taken on 9/11 and the following days and copies of the engineering drawings) that were available to the FEMA Building Performance Assessment Team. His work was being performed under a grant from the National Science Foundation and not all of the information that he needed was being shared with him.

Previously you seemed to imply that NIST was having difficultly obtaining documents and their engineers complained to Congress about that issue. As far as I know, Dr. Abolhassan Astaneh-Asl was not part of the NIST investigation.

Initially, the PANYNJ did not release the building drawings and other pertinent information to the FEMA BPAT. There is congressional testimony from members of the BPAT that discuss that issue, but by the time the formal NIST investigation began, I believe the Port Authority had already released the documentation to FEMA and also agreed to make it available to NIST. Perhaps I am mistaken, but that's what I recall happened.

- Make7

[DoYouEverWonder]

50. It would help to see the blueprints for the 81st floor

to know for sure how that floor was built. Any links to a source?

Since the elevator hoists were extremely heavy, I would assume you would want to put them in the strongest part of the building, which was the core. However, the core was pretty full already, hence the redirecting of the stairs, but according to one report, the elevator hoists took up half the floor and were lined up like a row of soldiers. At a minimum, even if they were butted up right next to each other, you need at least 96' across just for the machines.

The machine room contained a dozen 24-ton elevator hoists, which pulled high-speed express elevators from the lobby to the 78th floor. The Otis Elevator 339HT machines were the largest in the world when they were installed three decades ago during the towers' construction. Lined up like a row of soldiers in front of Stairway A, the machines helped protect the stairwell.

The elevator equipment room covered more than half the width of the 81st floor. Its size forced the tower's designers to route Stairway A around the machines. The detour moved Stairway A from the center of the building toward the northwest corner — away from the path the hijacked jet would take.

<snip>

The elevator machine room also may have helped contain the upward force of the explosion, protecting Stairway A when it was in the building's center above the 82nd floor. To hold the 600,000-pound weight of the elevator hoists, the beams supporting the 81st floor were twice as big and four times as heavy as those on the 79th floor.

Even the collapse of the two towers did not destroy the massive Otis 339HT machines. The machines were 8 feet tall and 13-feet-by-8-feet wide. Some were found intact in the wreckage at Ground Zero, still bolted to the specially reinforced beams that held them. Investigators at first mistook them for jet engines.

http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/2002/05/17/stairway.htm

[Make7]

68. The Elevator Hoists

 

DoYouEverWonder wrote:

Since the elevator hoists were extremely heavy, I would assume you would want to put them in the strongest part of the building, which was the core. However, the core was pretty full already, hence the redirecting of the stairs, but according to one report, the elevator hoists took up half the floor and were lined up like a row of soldiers. At a minimum, even if they were butted up right next to each other, you need at least 96' across just for the machines.

The cores were approximately 87 feet by 137 feet (source), obviously the elevator hoists could fit lined up within the core. That is exactly where it shows them in the graphics from USA Today:



The reinforced beams referred to in the article are the beams within the core supporting the elevator hoists. There is nothing in that article that indicates how the floor system outside the core was built.

DoYouEverWonder wrote:

It would help to see the blueprints for the 81st floor to know for sure how that floor was built. Any links to a source?

As far as I know PANYNJ has not authorized the release of the blueprints to the public. The best publicly available source that I know of for information about the design and construction of the buildings is the NIST report.

- Make7

[hack89]

31. The steel portions did collapse

Windsor was not a steel framed building - it was a 32-story concrete building with a reinforced concrete central core.

http://www.mace.manchester.ac.uk/project/research/structures/strucfire/CaseStudy/HistoricFires/BuildingFires/default.htm

[hack89]

11. So explain the massive smoke plume.

If you saw a massive column of smoke on the horizon reasching miles into the sky, wouldn't you think it was a huge fire.

[vincent_vega_lives]

16. "Encase" is probably a poor choice of words regarding fire

But enough semantics.

1. The Madrid Windsor Tower was 32 stories tall. The WTC was 100.

2. 100 firefighters worked 24 hours fighting the blaze. WTC 1 & 2 and 7 were unfought.

3. WTC 1 & 2 and 7 received significant physical damage that Windsor towers did not.

4. The WTC towers were steel construction. The Windsor tower was steel frame encased in CONCRETE.

Fireproofing on the 25-year-old building’s steel framing was the patented CAFCO Blaze-Shield DC/F, consisting primarily of mineral wool and portland cement. Beam fireproofing was 1 in. thick and deck fireproofing 1Ú2 in. thick.

5. "What worries us now is its structural state because of the high temperatures it was subjected to," Merardo Tudelo, director of the Madrid Municipal Firefighters, told reporters shortly before 9 p.m. Sunday (2000 GMT).

WHAAHT? WHY would they be concerned???? Miranda help those foolish people out!

6. "As a result it will be declared a ruin and (we will proceed with) its complete demolition," she added.

Huh? It was damaged structurally? HOW?

[DoYouEverWonder]

44. The fire at the First Interstate Bank Building in 1988

is probably a better example to compare with the WTC.

[Taxloss]

24. You forgot to add "at night".

The 9/11 attacks occurred during the day.

(Unless that's just another thing "they" want you to believe.)

[Taxloss]

32. Here's a daylight picture:

Looks a lot like the WTC, doesn't it?

[Recursion]

22. The towers were also massive moneylosers

That never even approached full occupancy.

[Taxloss]

26. Meaning ...? n/t

[Recursion]

28. I wasn't going anywhere in particular with that

I just find it interesting that while they symbolized optimism and financial dominance they were themselves financial failures.

[seemslikeadream]

27. moneylosers

could ask Paul Wellstone but he's gone, could ask Dick Cheney but he won't answer

[SidDithers]

33. Occupancy was 98% at the time of the attacks...

but I understand that in IJCspeak, that's not approaching full occupancy.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=125&topic_id=94369&mesg_id=94382

Sid

[mirandapriestly]

34. So they went from 80 to 98

In the four years prior to 9-11....interesting. I bet some of the new tenants were also inside traders. I also doubt that figure because they were giving free studio space to artists, at least one of them died on 9-11. Additionally, even if they did have that kind of rate in 2001 , Goldman Sachs was building a big complex in Hoboken and there was a plan for Wall Street to move to New Jersey.

[DoYouEverWonder]

41. 98% occupied?

First of that is certainly not true. I know the real estate folks may have claimed up to 90% occupancy, which I seriously doubt based on the lists that I have seen of tenants and their square footage. Certainly, 90% of the building was not occupied and a number of floors, especially the further up you go, were far from being fully occupied physically.

[mirandapriestly]

45. The "blame it on Islam" cters will believe anything

that supports their views.

[Bolo Boffin]

46. Do you remember that Dave Chapelle skit about a blind, black KKK member?

I don't know why that sketch reminds me of your post, miranda.

[SidDithers]

47. The real Clayton Bigsby...

http://deseretnews.com/dn/view/0,1249,635175667,00.html

Life immitates art :)
Sid

[LARED]

49. Fascinating

Is there anyone posting in the 9/11 forum that blames Islam for 9/11?

Please enlighten this poor benighted OCT'er.

[DoYouEverWonder]

51. Just curious

who do you blame in that case?

If you don't blame BushCo, then who else is there to blame, that Muslim guy who lives in a cave?

[SidDithers]

52. Are you suggesting that a rich, educated Muslim couldn't plan this?...

We're not talking about some illiterate goat herder, but a wealthy, multiple-degree holding fanatic.

I really find the "Muslim in a cave" description to be incredibly silly and ethnocentric.

[DoYouEverWonder]

55. I am not the one who created the muslim in a cave myth

The Lair of Bin Laden is a fictoid that originated in the highly-enterprising British press on November 27th, 2001. The chronology is as follows. On November 26th, the New York Times carried a story based on the account of an a ex-Russian soldier, Viktor Kutsenko, who had served in Afghanistan in the nineteen-eighties in which he claimed that there had seen an elaborate cave complex in Zhawar with "iron doors" that contained " a bakery, a hotel with overstuffed furniture, a hospital with an ultrasound machine, a library, a mosque, weapons of every imaginable stripe; a service bay with a World War II-era Soviet tank inside, in perfect running order." The historic story then added "Mr. bin Laden is reported to have upgraded both it and a nearby camp in the 1990's."

http://edwardjayepstein.com/nether_fictoid3.htm

[SidDithers]

58. Looks a bit like NORAD at Cheyenne Mountain

So what's the point of the "muslim in a cave" story then? That he's an ignorant heathen with no resources, so he couldn't possibly have planned and executed 9/11? Or that he's a super-fanatic, with an underground complex like Dr. Evil, and therefore he couldn't possibly have planned and executed 9/11?

I am not the one who created the muslim in a cave myth

But you have no problem perpetuating it?

Sid

[DoYouEverWonder]

60. Not perpetuating it at all

Just exposing the truth. The above graphic was published and aired in the M$M after 9-11. Rumsfeld told Tim Russert, that there wasn't just one of these caves, there were many. Funny how after 5 years, even with the US forces inside of Afghanistan and we still haven't found even one of these fortress caves.

Russert: The Times of London did a graphic, which I want to put on the screen for you and our viewers. This is it. This is a fortress. This is a very much a complex, multi-tiered, bedrooms and offices on the top, as you can see, secret exits on the side and on the bottom, cut deep to avoid thermal detection so when our planes fly to try to determine if any human beings are in there, it's built so deeply down and embedded in the mountain and the rock it's hard to detect. And over here, valleys guarded, as you can see, by some Taliban soldiers. A ventilation system to allow people to breathe and to carry on. An arms and ammunition depot. And you can see here the exits leading into it and the entrances large enough to drive trucks and cars and even tanks. And it's own hydroelectric power to help keep lights on, even computer systems and telephone systems. It's a very sophisticated operation.


Rumsfeld: Oh, you bet. This is serious business. And there's not one of those. There are many of those. And they have been used very effectively. And I might add, Afghanistan is not the only country that has gone underground. Any number of countries have gone underground. The tunneling equipment that exists today is very powerful. It's dual use. It's available across the globe. And people have recognized the advantages of using underground protection for themselves.

http://edwardjayepstein.com/nether_fictoid3.htm

[SidDithers]

63. Ok, so the cave complex doesn't exist...

what then is the implication that goes with the "muslim in a cave" descriptive?

Nevermind, I see you've answered Lared's similar question below.

FWIW, I don't agree with you.

Sid

[Bolo Boffin]

64. This is what I call "perpetuating it"

DoYouEverWonder Donating Member (1000+ posts) Journal Click to send private message to this author Click to view this author's profile Click to add this author to your buddy list Click to add this author to your Ignore list Sun Dec-24-06 02:24 PM
Response to Reply #49
51. Just curious

who do you blame in that case?

If you don't blame BushCo, then who else is there to blame, that Muslim guy who lives in a cave?

You act as if your words aren't there for everyone to read.

[LARED]

65. we still haven't found even one of these fortress caves.

How do you know that? I'm not saying the caves were as complex as shown, but we know they existed.

[DoYouEverWonder]

66. You don't think

Gerald Rivera wouldn't have been there for live broadcast of the first camera shots, if they had every found even one of these caves?

[LARED]

67. No I don't (n/t)

[LARED]

53. Radical Islamists

The 19 hijackers, OBL, al-Qaeda, Takfir wal-Hijra, al-Jihad.

This criminals do not represent Islam any more that people that blow up abortion clinics represent Christians.

You know, they guys that actually did the crime.

[DoYouEverWonder]

54. They may have provided the 'muscle'

but who supplied the brains?

[LARED]

56. I don't understand your implication

Are you saying the leaders of al-Qaeda lacked the brains to plot 9/11?

Are you that naive, or just think most Muslims are stupid?

[DoYouEverWonder]

57. I don't think the 19 hijackers had enough brain cells between them

I said nothing about Muslims.

Are you saying the leaders of al-Qaeda lacked the brains to plot 9/11? Not all. They just lacked the ways and means to pull off an operation like this inside the US on their own.

[LARED]

59. They just lacked the ways and means to pull off an operation like this

inside the US on their own.

Really? You believe the methods and resources were not available to al-Qaeda?

The leaders of al-Qeada had many years of terrorist experience and training. Most of the leadership grew out of older Islamic terror organizations and were quite skilled in many methods. The hijackers had been to al-Qaeda training camps. Learning to fly, and hijacking a plane requires skill and knowledge, but it's not like they were tasked with micro-brain-surgery after passing a six week correspondence course. At the end of the day what they "accomplished" was just not that sophisticated.

So in what way did the hijackers lack means and ways to attack on 9/11. Is there anything in particular that was required from inside the US government?

[DoYouEverWonder]

61. Ramming a small boat

into the side of a military transport ship (the USS Cole) requires a lot of skill? They didn't even sink the darn thing.

[LARED]

62. I'm not sure I get the connection

Anyway

From what I understand the bomb was pretty sophisticated.

http://www.richardminiter.com/pdf/books/losing_bl/chapter_11.pdf

The bomb had been carefully prepared for weeks. It was made from C-4, a plastic explosive long used by the U.S. military. The bomb was the equivalent of seven hundred pounds of TNT. The C-4 was packed in heavy steel to direct the blast and magnify its force.

The USS Cole was a hardened vessel designed with 70 tons of armored shielding; capable of withstanding a force of 51000 PSI force. So it looks a bit more sophisticated than ramming a small boat into its side.

[wildbilln864]

69. here's a kick...

for ya!