What is the allure of full blown synthetic origination?

[noise]

The difficulty of buying the mass suicide aspect? The questionable piloting skills? The evidence that disputes their purported Islamic martyrdom beliefs?

This post isn't intended as a defense of the Zelikow/waterboarding report. I don't know what happened on 9/11.

[JackRiddler]

1. Don't understand it myself.

There's a fear I consider neurotic among some that admitting the sheer existence in the world of men willing to do this would justify the "war on terror," even if the plot was orchestrated or facilitated from within the U.S. intel/military complex.* I find this nothing short of bizarre. The real question given U.S. government actions in the world is why there aren't many more willing suicide guys lining up for the privilege. (That's not meant as a justification of pointless mayhem on civilians, obviously.)

Others seem to just like the feeling of knowing they know the whole plot, damn it, even if they don't. Also, a complete story sells better, but in that case I recommend writing a novel.

Yet others want a quick way to win: one photo or claim proves all, no further elaboration or debate necessary. This is the "keep it simple stupid" or "case closed" school, often accompanied by the perception that Americans are hopeless and will never understand a complex case. Therefore a cruise missile hit the Pentagon! Case closed.

Others still are pushing obvious lies, almost certainly planted intentionally as a parody/poison pill, whether they know it or not. This is where "pods" and no-planes-at-WTC fits, almost without a doubt. Ditto the "I See Jews" crowd. So instead of a united front against government secrecy and lies, we have a contentious debate over speculative entities that is bound to be won by the "debunkers" who then prove planes hit the WTC and troofers are all crazy, by golly by gum.

Then there's team mentality or misguided "big tent" tolerance: Let's all agree with all propositions by people on "our side" so we can be more effective in reaching the people at large, rather than appearing to disagree amongst ourselves. As we know from Democratic politics, the worst evil in the world is "divisiveness." This fallacy is probably the biggest single self-imposed disaster to have hit the "9/11 truth movement," amounting to an abandonment of critical thinking by many who really do know better.

--

* This idea has its pendant in leftists who eschew 9/11 skepticism because they believe this was a blow by enemies of imperialism through a propaganda of the deed.

Here's an old article of mine, from back in the days when I was more willing to engage "big tent," with possibly relevant musings on the differing psychological responses to 9/11:

http://911conspiracy.blogspot.com/2005/08/mass-rorschach-test.html

[noise]

7. The motives seem rather straightforward

What I find strange is when blowback adherents don't seem to question the capability. Even Terry McDermott (author of Perfect Soldiers) admits the al Qaeda operatives made plenty of mistakes.

[mhatrw]

2. It's not fear. It's a call for evidence.

Obviously, most of the hijackers existed and were acting as some sort of intelligence assets for some organization or another.

Other than that, what actual evidence do we have about them?

Where is the hard evidence that they were piloting the four planes when they crashed? Where is the hard evidence that they were the hijackers of these planes? Where is the hard evidence that they were even on the four planes in question?

How did the FBI go from "knowing nothing about them" to figuring out who they were and even they were staying the night before within hours of the attacks?

Since the cover story doesn't add up, it is just simpler to dismiss the 19 as patsies. One thing is certain. There is no way in hell that these guys knew they were on a suicide mission for greater glory of strict Wahhabism.

[noise]

4. I haven't been able to come up

with a good theory to explain how they could have been fooled. One theory is that al-Hazmi and al-Mihdhar were GID agents. So they could have been fooled into believing they would be protected but that doesn't account for the others. I believe the FBI concluded that eleven didn't know they were on a suicide mission and the other eight did. But according to KSM's 'interrogation' he claims all the al Qaeda operatives knew it was a suicide mission.

[mhatrw]

5. Suppose they all thought they were doing a drill or a "run through"?

What is so hard to believe about that? That's assuming that they were all on the planes in question and that all the planes crashed as we were told.

KSM's interrogation is a perfect example of what we are dealing with here. First, KSM was a protected ISI asset long after 9/11. Then he was supposedly killed. Then he was supposedly captured. Then he supposedly made a confession under torture. But we can't see the video of his questioning, nor can we even read a redacted transcript of his answers.

What are we supposed to believe about KSM other than he himself was nothing more than another in a long line of betrayed intelligence assets? I mean, we can't even be certain that the guy they have been torturing is actually KSM. What would you have told them about the 19 if you were the one being tortured?

[noise]

21. The difficulty is determining how they could have been

fooled in a patsy scenario. KSM did talk of a standard (non suicide) hijacking in which planes would be landed with women and children released and the men killed. Maybe they were told the attacks would be a variation of a standard hijacking.

The accounts of their recruitment and training in Afghanistan are hard to believe. Apparently they had no reaction to the news they would be going on martyrdom missions.

It is strange that we haven't seen more proof from the FBI that they boarded the planes.

[JackRiddler]

8. I don't reject a "real mission" that was simply followed and helped

with only a couple of infiltrators really necessary in the mix to keep tabs on the lot. If I was doing this, I'd set up or take over a fake Qaeda recruitment. Leave a convincing trail with it. Plausible deniability being the highest concern of any individual involved, no?

If it was only the hijackers - well we'd still have all these bizarre anomalies and apparent doubles - but no hijacker stories explain the actions of the chain of command, the air defense picture and wargames, the "warnings," Able Danger and FBI obstruction, and the complete lack of investigation of these lines. Just to scratch that surface yet again.

[noise]

18. Basically a piggy-back operation

It makes sense. Otherwise, we are left with the mystery of why they evidently expressed no curiosity as to what they were doing in the US.

[noise]

19. How do we know they didn't have strict Wahhabi beliefs?

Is it mostly from Hopsicker's research? I don't get Hopsicker's research. The Atta many accounts have described in Germany was a shy antisocial architecture student who got caught up in radical Islam at the al Quds mosque. Hopsicker would have us believe the same guy came to the US and changed his personality...dating an American stripper, drinking and doing drugs. Keep in mind, Hamburg presented even more temptations than the US. In fact the al Quds mosque was located in a 'red light' district.

IMO, these are not the same Attas. Why should I believe Hopsicker? Have people trusted his research too much simply because he says things they want to hear? If the intent was to start a War on Terror against radical Islamic motivated terrorists, why would the perps pin 9/11 on drug dealers?

Do we know for sure if the sex toys purchase and the solicitation of prostitutes accounts are true? If the FBI is involved in the coverup then why wouldn't they dismiss these accounts (especially if they are true) since they conflict with the Wahhabi account?

[HamdenRice]

22. Hopsicker seems to be the main source re Florida, but local papers reported hookers

I don't have the links handy, but iirc, both Newark and Boston local newspapers reported that according to local police, the hijackers hired or sought to hire prostitutes just before the attacks at a time when they were supposed to be "purifying" themselves for martyrdom.

On edit: You can work through Paul Thompson's time line and its links, eg:

http://www.cooperativeresearch.org/timeline.jsp?timeline=complete_911_timeline&the_alleged_9/11_hijackers=otherHijackers

University of Florida religion professor Richard Foltz states, “It is incomprehensible that a person could drink and go to a strip bar one night, then kill themselves the next day in the name of Islam… People who would kill themselves for their faith would come from very strict Islamic ideology. Something here does not add up.”


http://web.archive.org/web/20010916150533/http://www.sun-sentinel.com/news/local/southflorida/sfl-warriors916.story

Suspects? actions don?t add up

By Jody A. Benjamin
Sun-Sentinel
Posted September 16 2001

Three guys cavorting with lap dancers at the Pink Pony Nude Theater.

Two others knocking back glasses of Stolichnaya and rum and Coke at a fish joint in Hollywood the weekend before committing suicide and mass murder.

That might describe the behavior of several men who are suspects in Tuesday?s terrorist attack, but it is not a picture of devout Muslims, experts say. Let alone that of religious zealots in their final days on Earth.

[pauldp]

3. Well the fact that the whole thing smacks of an intelligence operation helps.

Money apparently coming from Pakistani intelligence via Saeed Sheikh to
Atta the coke fiend, who happened to be at a flight school where the "good" and "bad" Bin Ladens sent their associates, as well as being connected to the Bush family via Hilliard, who had a plane connected to what sure as hell looks like CIA drug running.

I don't know what the Hijackers actual religious convictions were, but Atta at least looks like he's connected to CIA/black op drug running. I don't know, but it certainly seems plausible that Atta at least was an agent duped into doing a mission he would not survive. Maybe not, maybe he was really a Wahabbi zealot. He could have been duped either way.

Even if the hijackers were true islamic zealots, if they were manipulated into hijacking the planes by an intelligence apparatus how is that not "full blown synthetic?" A reality TV show is pretty much as synthetic as a sitcom even if the "actors" are expressing their real hopes and dreams.

[HamdenRice]

6. The evidence about them is so contradictory

The OCT portrait of dedicated Islam fanatics is contradicted by evidence from other sources -- the hard drinking, coke dealing, lap dance buying party boys sketched out by the evidence from Florida; the guys soliciting the services of prositutes right before the attack sketched out by local police; the intelligence connected guys painted by evidence from Pakistan and Saudi Arabia.

Because the evidence is so contradictory, it's possible to paint almost any picture of them you like.

[JackRiddler]

9. honestly, is there really a hard and fast distinction between

"dedicated Islamic fanatics" and coke-sniffing pussy hounds? I mean, not to play Dr. Freud here or to suggest our fundamentalist brothers are nutso hypocrites, but isn't a religious rejection of sex known to go curiously well with obsession with sex? If it was "dedicated fundamentalist Republicans," you wouldn't have a second thought about that aspect.

[HamdenRice]

10. I suppose there is if the "fundamentalist" isn't phoney

When I hear that some Republican bible thumper actually is a child molester/men's room toe tapper/prostitute hiring scat player, I assume that his bible thumping was an act anyway.

If an Islamic fundamentalist is fundamentalist to commit suicide, then I assume he really is a fundamentalist, and that any coke sniffing, whore mongering, lap dance buying, heavy drinking behavior really is inexplicably anomalous.

[JackRiddler]

11. But that's not always the case...

Many differing shades of phoniness and self-deception can come into play. Based on "my extensive study via TV," assuredly not the best method, Ted Haggard to me looks like a very torn, unstable, neurotic man, trying hard to believe the shit he says. You don't share his deceptions, so when he's exposed as "SWM Meth Junkie Seeks Men" he looks like a pure con artist. But he may really believe he "fell into sin" and couldn't get back out. People devoted to already neurotic propositions like a Sky God who guides them personally can develop Jekyll and Hyde personalities - as can anyone, actually. (Hey, Sky God usually also means there's a Devil to tempt you.)

People end up believing their own constructs of convenience - you see this a lot in the wealthy when they come to believe God made the rich and the poor and man can't change a thing about it.

"Islamic fundamentalist" is an assumption that both Bush and the mysterious Osama can agree upon, but what about "Arabs out for revenge on the Superpower killing their nations, and willing to die for it"? Even Zelikow says "the motive" was revenge for Iraq and Palestine, but that they left it out of the report because it would be too controversial. Would that make more sense to you? The anger such a person feels can express itself through different ideological and organizational outlets in different eras. It used to be Arab nationalism with a Marxist twist, and after exchanging the hostages for the freeing of prisoners, Carlos and Bonnie and Clyde would try to get away for another day. Nowadays it's Jihad. If you're ready to kill and die for a revenge you see as righteous, that's where the action is.

The part that never makes sense to me is that all 19 -- and their unspecified number of accomplices! --- hold on that tight to the plan for so long without a single one breaking, cutting out, or singing. Their recruitment according to official stories was in part arbitrary. It's not clear by official story whether any of "the masterminds" necessarily met them all and judged them up to the task. The plot is talked about enough that info about it makes its way to the U.S. through multiple foreign agencies. What kind of Darth Vader brainwash could they go through to make them ALL that reliable -- even as they coke it up and "party like it's 1999"?! Consider it our variant on the OCT "where's the whistleblower?" argument. This is no doubt why the FBI grunts came up with the hypothesis that the "muscle hijackers didn't know the plan." They're looking at this group of largely middle-class educated students and saying, okay, we can see a core of them being into the plan, but all 19? Largely meeting as strangers, and then executing to the very end?

[mhatrw]

13. Get a grip, JR.

NOBODY WITH ANY MODICUM OF WESTERN, MATERIALISTIC, INDIVIDUAL SENSIBILITIES KNOWINGLY SIGNS UP FOR A SUICIDE MISSION.

It simply ain't done. No matter how hard our military brass tries, they can't even get our most brainwashed soldiers to do it.

[JackRiddler]

14. I feel totally unread...

Like, I doubt you read the last part of what I wrote at all.

But if that's your point: actually, people brought up in the Western materialist ethos go on suicide missions at a rate of every few weeks, and usually seem to have a transcendant personal justification for it that tends to resonate more with right-wing ideology than what's called liberal. They do it individually and are rightly called unstable and crazy (though for all we know many of them were damaged by mind manipulation experiments or drug treatments of one kind or another, but that's another issue). They write death manifestoes and their death cult is spectacularized by the media and celebrated in a ton of movies.

Getting back to 9/11, I think you are romanticizing the OCT's idea of people who go on organized suicide missions for political reasons to the point where you lose sight that they would remain complicated, contradictory human beings.

AND PLEASE DON'T SHOUT AT ME!!! All caps suggests an irrational resistance to discussion.

[mhatrw]

15. Going postal because you are individually suicidal and want to take

people with you is not the same thing as signing up for a suicide mission as a soldier.

Show me a soldier who was a product of our materialistic, individualistic Westernized culture who has ever willingly signed up for a mission in which he knew that the only definition of a successful mission was killing himself and that his chances for survival were exactly zero.

[Name removed]

16. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[mhatrw]

12. And what Republican hyprocrites have you ever known to die for their cause?

We can't even get brainwashed soldiers to kamikaze, JR. Suicide missions are just not part of the coke snorting, hard drinking, stripper watching ethos.

[JackRiddler]

17. Republicans are tops in deathwish culture

Nobody beats'em at that.

The difference is, they don't need to do kamikaze missions, no? The suicide bomber would rather have an air force, I am certain. Suicide bombing comes about when it's the only means available to deliver the bomb on the part of the desperate.

Which maybe is not be telling us anything about the middle-class coke-snorting flight school students who are said to be the 9/11 hijackers, but maybe it is.

[mhatrw]

20. It ain't. Or at least, they don't fit the profile.

Jihadis, perhaps. Suicide mission jihadis, no way.