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Bush on allaged OBL confession tape: Do you agree with his statements?

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nebula Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-14-08 06:55 PM
Original message
Poll question: Bush on allaged OBL confession tape: Do you agree with his statements?
President Bush scoffed Friday at any suggestion that the videotape of Osama bin Laden discussing the September 11 terrorist attacks might not be authentic.

"It is preposterous for anybody to think that this tape is doctored," he said during a brief photo opportunity with the prime minister of Thailand. "That's just a feeble excuse to provide weak support for an incredibly evil man." --GW Bush


Bush acknowledged he had mixed emotions about releasing it to the public.

"I was hesitant to allow there to be a vivid reminder of their loss and tragedy displaced on our TVs," he said. "On the other hand, I knew that the tape would be a devastating declaration of guilt for this evil person." --GW Bush


http://edition.cnn.com/2001/US/12/14/ret.bin.laden.video/index.html?related|CNN>


Please explain your answer if you could. Thanks!
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JackRiddler Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 12:01 AM
Response to Original message
1. Cut and paste time...
Edited on Sat Mar-15-08 12:02 AM by JackRiddler
this video has been discussed here so many times, after all.

Two possible origins are usually considered for the tape:

1) It's authentic and shows a real discussion between Osama and his friend. In that case, here is an interesting angle -- I don't actually agree with it but it's worth consideration:

Writer Claims bin Laden Confession Video Offers Evidence of Criminal Conspiracy
To Go to War on Part of US and Britain, And Possible Foreknowledge of the 9/11 Attacks
http://911truth.org/article.php?story=20070226141631611

OR

2) It's a CIA/US intel fake.

Many people take option 2 to constitute proof of 9/11 complicity by US. That is a logical fallacy. Intel ops might fake such a tape to support the official story, independently of whether that story is true, simply because they hope to put speculation to rest. Furthermore, the people who fake it are not necessarily the same as the people who then find it (soldiers in Afghanistan, perhaps) or who end up promoting it (the State Dept.).

MORE IMPORTANTLY, THESE ARE NOT THE ONLY POSSIBILITIES.

This might be one of the "Osama doubles" we heard so much about in the early days after 9/11. Anyone could have faked it before it fell into the hands of the US military: amateurs, the Northern Alliance, a third-country intel agency... even "Curveball"! We are not talking about a high tech fakery, if it is that.

TWO ESSENTIAL MATTERS THAT THESE DISCUSSIONS ALMOST ALWAYS IGNORE:

1) THE MISLEADING TRANSLATION

-provided by the State Department. The OBL of this video speaks of "they" and "them" doing 9/11, not "us" and "we." The translation was demanded as a rush job from contract translators, who later complained. German TV journalist Ekkehard Siekker (Monitor/ARD) hired other translators. They worked on it for more than 30 hours before giving up on the "inaudibles" and calling the State Dept's freelancers to find out how they had arrived at their results. At that point, the State Dept. contractors said, well, if you had 30 hours you'll know better than us, because we only had 10!

2) IT PROVES NOTHING

They may be actors, they may be real fanatics dedicated to committing real murder of "Crusaders and Jews." They may still be assets, dating back to the 1980s. They may be giving a confession that they know to be false, or genuinely think to be true... the footage may be faked by digital means...

And I don't care, because:

Osama and his friend didn't schedule the wargames for September 11th. They didn't choose the scenarios that were run on that day. They didn't practice these scenarios repeatedly beforehand. They didn't keep Bush in a school for 45 minutes during the attacks -- although, and this is VERY interesting, the "Osama" of October 2004 found excuses for this behavior! (See next post, below.)

They didn't make Myers and Rumsfeld pretend to be scarce on the morning. They didn't spontaneously reschedule Winfield's shift on the evening before the attack. They didn't stymie command response and sow confusion in the air defense and keep the interceptors occupied elsewhere.

They didn't bury the dozen-plus prior warnings from foreign intelligence services, many of them highly specific. They couldn't kill the request for a Moussaoui search warrant; Dave Frasca did. They didn't put a yellow stickie over Atta's face and shut down the Able Danger program, after it discovered them; that was the Pentagon. They didn't arrange for a fake Atta to spook around Florida prior to his official arrival date of July 2000.

They didn't insure that the Pentagon was hit, or that UA 93 was shot down by a missile. They played their role, and either they believed in it or they were just acting. And it doesn't matter.

After 9/11, Osama and his friend didn't say there should be no investigation. They weren't the ones who decided 9/11 was an act of war that justified several wars in response, all of which were coincidentally planned before 9/11. They didn't link 9/11 to Iraq and then murder half a million people there in the name of justice. They weren't the ones who ignored the Pakistani financial connection. They did not anthrax the Congress, or sic the FBI to intimidate the Joint intelligence committee investigation of 9/11.

They didn't set up a ludicrous investigation under Kissinger and then Zelikow, who came to it straight from the White House and left it to rejoin his lover Condoleezza Rice (excuse my artistic license).

Osama and his friend didn't say the question of who financed the operation was trivial and irrelevant, and should be ignored. That was the 9/11 Commission Report.

Get the picture? Only those who exclude the above and much more can pretend that this tape settles anything about "who did 9/11."
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Bolo Boffin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 06:39 AM
Response to Reply #1
4. The number of things you state as fact which are not mars your presentation.
Wargames had little or no impact on 9/11. Prove that they did.

Bush kept himself in that school, and the call was his to make. Stop slandering others for something that's entirely his fault.

Myers and Rumsfeld didn't pretend to be scarce. They were. There are pictures of Rumsfeld on the Pentagon lawn, fer chrissake. He was an idiot for doing that.

Able Danger didn't identify Atta before 9/11.

The hijackers most certainly did ensure that the Pentagon was hit. Are you mad?

UA 93 was not hit by a missile.

Continuing to rely on factual inaccuracies like these are destroying your ability to advance your worthy causes, Jack. They allow people to write you off.
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nebula Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 09:26 AM
Response to Reply #1
7. This is rather absurd
Intel ops might fake such a tape to support the official story, independently of whether that story is true, simply because they hope to put speculation to rest.


Why would they need to put out a fake tape if they had real evidence of Osama's guilt?
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JackRiddler Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 12:09 AM
Response to Original message
2. How about the October 2004 tape?
Edited on Sat Mar-15-08 12:11 AM by JackRiddler
In which Osama just a few days before the election suddenly decided to deliver an analysis worthy of a Michael Moore, revealing his strategy and - in my favorite part - addressed the very same issues that 9/11 skeptics had raised with regard to a possible air force standdown on September 11th.

http://english.aljazeera.net/English/archive/archive?ArchiveId=7403



(...)

It is true that this shows that al-Qaida has gained, but on the other hand, it shows that the Bush administration has also gained, something of which anyone who looks at the size of the contracts acquired by the shady Bush administration-linked mega-corporations, like Halliburton and its kind, will be convinced. And it all shows that the real loser is ... you.

It is the American people and their economy. And for the record, we had agreed with the Commander-General Muhammad Ataa, Allah have mercy on him, that all the operations should be carried out within 20 minutes, before Bush and his administration notice.

It never occurred to us that the commander-in-chief of the American armed forces would abandon 50,000 of his citizens in the twin towers to face those great horrors alone, the time when they most needed him.

But because it seemed to him that occupying himself by talking to the little girl about the goat and its butting was more important than occupying himself with the planes and their butting of the skyscrapers, we were given three times the period required to execute the operations - all praise is due to Allah.


And it's no secret to you that the thinkers and perceptive ones from among the Americans warned Bush before the war and told him: "All that you want for securing America and removing the weapons of mass destruction - assuming they exist - is available to you, and the nations of the world are with you in the inspections, and it is in the interest of America that it not be thrust into an unjustified war with an unknown outcome."

But the darkness of the black gold blurred his vision and insight, and he gave priority to private interests over the public interests of America.

(...)


Wow! God is Great - Vote Democrat. Oh, and that lack of air defense response? Don't worry, it was because Bush was busy reading "The Pet Goat."

Strangely enough, Osama (or "Osama"?) also forgot the Secret Service, White House Military Office, situation room chief, and other members of Bush's large entourage, who normally would have reacted regardless of the President's desire to continue his much-needed reading lesson.

Not to mention the protocols for intercepting acts of air piracy, which should have been activated automatically and independently of orders from the president.

Hmmmmm... Helpful guy, this Osama. Maybe that's why he's always cornered but never gets caught.
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Bolo Boffin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 06:44 AM
Response to Reply #2
5. Again you slander the SS, WHMO, and others for Bush's offense.
You simply do not understand the notion of "actionable intelligence." Until the Secret Service received specific and credible threat information about the President at that school building, then they HAD TO SUBMIT to the discretion of the President.

Why you refuse to understand this is beyond me.

(Also, do you think Osama truly thought that Bush wanted to talk about that goat? Do you think that he offered that excuse for Bush sincerely (as per your other post)? Perhaps sarcasm escapes you as well.)
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Bolo Boffin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 06:33 AM
Response to Original message
3. The tape is real, I don't agree with Bush's notion that people are
providing support for Osama bin Laden knowingly by questioning the tape.
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nebula Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 09:10 AM
Response to Reply #3
6. btw, here's the OBL tape in question
does this look like the same person to you?

www.youtube.com/watch?v=x0FVeqCX6z8



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Bolo Boffin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 09:41 AM
Response to Reply #6
8. Yes.


But let's look at a few more pictures, shall we?

And remember, your left picture is from a shoddy transfer between video parameters.
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nebula Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 10:54 AM
Response to Reply #8
10. Unless there has been
massive facial reconstructive surgery, it isn't the same person.

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Bolo Boffin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 01:13 PM
Response to Reply #10
19. Sigh. n/t
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SDuderstadt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 10:34 AM
Response to Reply #6
9. Yes, Nebula...
it DOES look like the same person. It's what you get when you contrast low resolution images with higher resolution images. Do the same with ANY picture of ANY person and you'll get the same results. Jesus, do you ever learn?
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nebula Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 11:03 AM
Response to Reply #9
11. No Duderstadt, it isn't
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SDuderstadt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 11:12 AM
Response to Reply #11
12. Prove it, Nebula...
This has already been debunked over and over and over ad infinitum. You have a higher resolution screen capture that has been converted into a much lower resolution image. You can do that with any picture.

http://www.911myths.com/html/fake_video.html
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nebula Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 11:20 AM
Response to Reply #12
14. I already did.
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nebula Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 11:18 AM
Response to Original message
13. Dyed beard Osama
Did he have a facelift this time?

He looks 20 years younger in the 2nd alleged video. Amazing!

www.youtube.com/watch?v=IY2Yj9wm7zI&feature=related










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SDuderstadt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 11:27 AM
Response to Reply #13
15. This is pointless, Nebula....
You're so invested in your CT that you can't bring yourself to admit the images are of widely varying resolution and the exact same effect can be duplicated by taking ANYONE'S picture and progressively lowering the resolution several times. If you can't see that, I can't help you. Maybe this guy can:

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nebula Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 11:53 AM
Response to Reply #15
16. No amount of vision correction can help you, Sduderstadt.
You're too drunk on the Kool-Aid.





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SDuderstadt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 11:58 AM
Response to Reply #16
17. Simple question, Nebula...
Do you honestly claim there are not significant differences in the resolution of those images?
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nebula Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 12:13 PM
Response to Reply #17
18. The more you spin, the more ridiculous you sound.
Spin it any way you want, the images are more than clear enough for anyone
with normal eyesight to see they are two different people.





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SDuderstadt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 06:42 PM
Response to Reply #18
21. Apparently the Muckraker Report didn't get the memo....
they explain that the images are all of bin Laden quite succinctly here:

http://www.muckrakerreport.com/id372.html

Don't you think it's time you stop doing this?:


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Grateful for Hope Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 01:39 PM
Response to Reply #13
20. Actually
If you look at the hairline...it is radically different between the two photos.
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