Zeitgeist Part 1 Debunking at Facebook

[Bolo Boffin]

You need an account at Facebook, I believe, to access this. What I've glanced at looks quite good:

http://www.facebook.com/topic.php?uid=2208192963&topic=5928

Zeitgeist Factual Review

1. “This is the cross of the Zodiac”, 1:38. It’s actually the Greek Zodiac Wheel, but admittedly a minor error. Nonetheless, it implies a word that makes it seem more related to Christianity.
2. “Horus…the Solar Messiah”, 2:57. The Ancient Egyptians did not have the word or concept of a Savior or Messiah…the movie simply adds that word on for later relationship to Jesus.
3. “Metaphorically speaking, every morning Horus would win the battle against Set, while in the evening, Set would conquer Horus and send him into the underworld.” 3:10. This is not Ancient Egyptian mythology, but rather the product of Zeitgeist’s writers. Horus and Set were enemies, but there was no myth stating their battles were the daily cause of daylight and nighttime. “Metaphorically speaking” is the very nice way of saying this.
4. “Horus was born on December 25th…” 3:33. Incorrect. Horus’ birth was during the Egyptian month of “Khoiak”, which falls in what is now October and November.

More, lots more, at the link.

[Name removed]

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[Bolo Boffin]

5. If you had gone there, you would have read

that the person writing that is not a Christian.

I am not either.

[mhatrw]

12. Why should I go there? Why should I care?

It's obvious that Zeitgeist overstates its case in many places. Who cares? More specifically, why do you care?

Or is this guilt by association? Is debunking the second and third sections of Zeitgeist so important to you guys that you'll use the "Jesus is the one true Son of God" angle to get there?

[Bolo Boffin]

14. Have you noticed me ever saying that Jesus is the one true god?

Fuck Jesus. Zeitgeist doesn't give my preferred position of atheism any help with falsehoods and lies.

[mhatrw]

21. Zeitgeist has opened a lot of Christians' minds to new ideas.

Part one is a simplified and overstated but entertaining deconstruction of Christianity. What exactly is your problem with it?

[Bolo Boffin]

22. "What exactly is your problem with it?" It's wrong in argumentation and facts.

These minds newly open to new ideas will slam shut again on the slightest investigation of the frauds and fantasies contained in The God Who Wasn't There -- oops, I meant the first part of Zeitgeist.

The cure is worse than the disease.

[mhatrw]

23. Sure.The fact that the case is overstated ruins EVERYTHING.

How about debunking each and every Rush Limbaugh statement in this manner? Wouldn't that be a better use of debunkers' time?

[Bolo Boffin]

24. Not many people here are susceptible to Rush Limbaugh.

But woo bullshit like Zeitgeist (in all three parts) needs to be resisted.

[mhatrw]

25. Not that many people "here" are susceptible to Rush Limbaugh?

So your missionary work is to save the souls of DUers?

[wildbilln864]

2. more bullshit...

from bullshitters I expect. No thanky! :rofl:

[Bolo Boffin]

6. Nope. More fact checking from people interested in the truth.

However, I'm sure your "no thanky" still applies.

[wildbilln864]

20. sure....but why aren't you equally interested in fighting for the truth regarding ...

election fraud, illegal wiretaps, Bush's torture programs, rendition, and so many other issues?
Nope, you're only here spending your enegy in the September 11th forum AFAICT. :shrug:

[Name removed]

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[Name removed]

59. Deleted message

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[Bolo Boffin]

60. Actually, I am.

You really aren't in a position to know just how I might or might not be fighting for those truths.

[wildbilln864]

61. Actually, I am.

:rofl:

[Bolo Boffin]

62. Your statement is a factual inaccuracy, wildbill.

Add it to all your others.

[wildbilln864]

63. depends of course...

on who's making the judgement. Thanks for your opinions.

[truedelphi]

3. If you were familiar with Astrology, and with mythology, you would realize

That yes, astrologers have been known to call it the "Cross" of the Zodiac.

In regards to the statement of "but there was no myth stating their battles were the daily cause of daylight and nighttime." And also “Metaphorically speaking” is the very nice way of saying this."

Of course there was a myth stating this. Just as Zeus' chariot was seen as the sun being pulled across the sky for the Romans, so too were Horus and Set seen in a daily battle, in which Set won at sunset and Horus at sunrise, for the Egyptians.

I have no idea abt the month of Khoiak, but I'll take the poster's word for it.

[Bolo Boffin]

8. If you were familiar with time, you would realize

that calling it the cross of the zodiac is something that happened AFTER the Jesus story.

Osiris was sent to the underworld, not Horus. If you have an actual ancient Egyptian source stating that Horus and Seth fight every day and night, you should produce it.

[truedelphi]

17. Look, Buddy, a cross is simply two pieces of wood, or two lines

That intersect one another.

Jesus carried a cross on his back. It was a cross the day before he met up with the structure, and it remains a cross.

Crosses are part of ancient art - everywhere. Egyptian, Mayan, Chinese, Celtic, Norse, etc.

Some were made before Christ, some afterwards.

Get over it.

[truedelphi]

18. As far as Seth and Horus, there are over 40,000 references on the Google.

two are here. (You are sort of asking me to post links establishing that the sun rises inthe east in the morning, but just so you don't think they aren't out there.)

1)
http://www.egyptianmyths.net/horus.htm

Symbols: hawk/falcon, bull, Double Crown, Winged Disk, Udjat, Sphinx, weapons, iron, blacksmiths
Cult Center: Edfu, Buto and Heliopolis
Myths: Isis and Osiris


The falcon-headed god, the kings of Egypt associated themselves with Horus. Horus was among the most important gods of Egypt, particularly because the Pharaoh was supposed to be his earthly embodiment. Kings would eventually take the name of Horus as one of their own. At the same time, the Pharaohs were the followers of Re and so Horus became associated with the sun as well. To the people this solar deity became identified as the son of Osiris. Attempts to resolve the conflicts between these different gods in different parts of Egypt resulted in at least fifteen distinct forms of Horus.
They can be divided fairly easily into two groups, solar and Osirian, based on the parentage of the particular form of Horus. If he is said to be the son of Isis, he is Osirian; otherwise he is a solar deity. The solar Horus was called the son of Atum, or Re, or Geb and Nut variously.


2)
www.egyptartsite.com/crea.html
Egyptian Creation Myths
Seth was a lunar god, in his struggles with the solar god Horus, Seth is seen ... .In one Egyptian creation myth, the sun god Ra takes the form of Khepri, ...

[OmmmSweetOmmm]

4. Ancient Egypt Festival Calendar

Please note, that December 25th is the celebration of the birth of Horus

http://www.aelives.com/holidays.htm

[Bolo Boffin]

7. Very good. You found a place where someone wrote on the Internet that it was Dec. 25.

:eyes:

[OmmmSweetOmmm]

9. The person you found did the same thing, at Facebook.

:)

[Bolo Boffin]

10. With what authority?

http://www.reference.com/search?q=horus&x=0&y=0

Which Horus? Horus the Younger or Horus the Elder?

Horus the resurrected form of Osiris, Horus the brother of Isis, or Horus the son of Osiris?

Horus the sky god, the sun god, the war god, or the fertility god?

And when exactly was it decided that Jesus was born on December 25th, and why? Did it have anything at all to do with Horus' birthday, which was once determined based on the flooding of the Nile?

Quit talking bullshit.

[OmmmSweetOmmm]

11. First, we are discussing Horus, son of Isis and Osiris. He was called Horus the Elder when he defeat

Set. As with all the different forms of Horus, we are still discussing the same Horus.


Also, the discussion is about Horus and not Jesus Christ. That is called deflection. last time I heard.


And the link you just provided means nothing to this discussion, does not determine the date in which Horus' birthday is celebrated, nor backs up the person whom you originally decided was an expert in the subject, so I can request that you stop bullshitting too.

[wildbilln864]

13. "so I can request that you stop bullshitting too."

Good luck with that Ommm! :hi:

[Bolo Boffin]

15. "As with all the different forms of Horus, we are still discussing the same Horus."

You have no real idea of Egyptian theology whatsoever.

The discussion is about a stated alignment between Horus and Jesus. If Jesus wasn't born on December 25, then that IS relevant to the fucking discussion.

[OmmmSweetOmmm]

16. lol! You're the one who stated a rebuttal to Zeitgeist that was based on

a Facebook blog. You have yet to back that up with any facts. Keep bullshitting.

[mhatrw]

27. So why are both births celebrated on 12/25?

You resist even the most basic deconstruction of your cherished beliefs.

Wouldn't your time be better spent praying for us blasphemers?

[truedelphi]

19. I grew up inside a most rigid form of Catholocism. We were

Taught that Christ was born in the spring.

That is now established by astronomers realizing that there was a major conjuction of several planets in 6 BC. I forget the exact date but it would have been April 6BC. (Due to the thousands of years between Christ's birth and now, and the calendar changes - you would have about six yrs of distorted calendar dating across a span of 2008 yrs. Which is why it is acceptable for Christ believers to think that the man of the year 0 AD could actually be born in 6 BC.)

As a Catholic, I was taught that in order to "help ease" the Pagan population of Europe into celebrating Christianity, the Church switched the birth of Christ over to December 25th, which was the high feast of Saturnalia. And that is how you (as an ancient person involved in calendar significance. etc.) would arrive at all the elements of the physical sun in the sky going backwards (from our viewpoint here on earth,) and then re-emerging after three days.
Keep in mind that astrology was the one religion that spanned both the pagan and the Christian mind set. Astrology was practiced even into the time of the Renaissance. A king of men, such as Christ, deserved a glorious birth date - and Saturnalia fit into that concept.

Bascially I was taught many of the tenets that Zeitgeist expresses regarding the Christ birth way back in sixth through ninth grade. I took the Dec 25th thing very seriously, as 12/25 is my DOB.

[mhatrw]

26. You are talking bullshit. It all has to do with the Winter Solstice.

That's the whole point.

[Grateful for Hope]

28. That is correct. n/t

[Bolo Boffin]

29. The Egyptian calendar

http://www.tyndale.cam.ac.uk/Egypt/ptolemies/chron/egyptian/chron_eg_cal.htm

The Egyptian civil calendar was 365 days long. Like ours, you say? Oh, no. There was no accounting for a leap year. Therefore the days would change all the time. Some call it the Wandering Year for that reason.

12 months, 30 days in each month, 3 weeks in each month, 10 days in each week. Three seasons, corresponding to the flooding of the Nile, had four months each.

At the end, the Egyptians tacked on five feast days. Guess what one of these feast days was called? The Birth of Horus.

http://www.britannica.com/eb/article-43479/Egypt#935697.hook

The three seasons of the Egyptian year were even named after the land conditions produced by the river: akhet, the “inundation”; peret, the season when the land emerged from the flood; and shomu, the time when water was short. When the Nile behaved as expected, which most commonly was the case, life went on as normal; when the flood failed or was excessive, disaster followed.

http://www.touregypt.net/featurestories/nile.htm

The Nile flooded in June-September, approximately. So June-September were the four months of Akhet, October-January the four months of Peret, and February-May the four months of Shomu...

...and then somewhere around May or June, after the harvest, the five feast days were tacked on - including the Birth of Horus.

So the guy at Facebook may be wrong about when Horus' birth was celebrated (I'd like to see his citation), but he was right about Zeitgeist being full of shit.

[mhatrw]

30. Why is Christ's birth celebrated on December 25th, boloboffin?

In your estimation, does this have anything to do with the Winter Solstice or is this just another coincidence?

[Bolo Boffin]

31. What difference does it make, mhatrw?

There's no connection to Horus, which is the point that The God Who... I'm sorry, Zeitgeist was making.

[mhatrw]

32. You can't even answer this simple question.

Are you afraid you will go to hell if you acknowledge the truth about your Savior's "birthday"?

[Bolo Boffin]

33. The OP is about a claim of Horus and Jesus being directly linked through birthday...

...among other items.

Since Horus' birthday clearly was not celebrated on a day that would become December 25th, it matters not if Jesus' is.

Am I afraid that I will go to hell if I acknowledge the truth about my Savior's "birthday"?

Having and needing no Savior, and there being no hell, no, no, three times, no.

[mhatrw]

34. The point of Zeitgeist was that the Jesus myth has a lot in common

with many "pagan" astrological myths that preceded it.

Do you actually dispute this or are you just acting on the orders of your Church elders?

[Bolo Boffin]

35. This is something so evident as to be banal.

Zeitgeist should not knock down one set of factual inaccuracies and replace it with another.

Your stupid act about what a Christian I am is getting tiresome. You know I am an atheist. Stop.

[mhatrw]

36. The cock is now crowing. n/t

[Bolo Boffin]

39. Calling you a cock would be against the rules, mhatrw. n/t

[mhatrw]

41. Congratulations. You have outdone Peter by a mile.

But I guess that's just one of the crosses that Jesus' double agents have to bear.

[Ghost in the Machine]

37. "You know I am an atheist. Stop.".... What brought your change to Atheism?

I find it hard to accept that an atheist would choose Harding Graduate School of Religion and Heritage Christian University as their schools of choice for their higher education. What finally got to you?

[Bolo Boffin]

38. The fact that there is no God.

Kind of pointless to worship something that doesn't exist.

Back up a bit. There may be some type of superior being out there, past the universe (if that phrase has any actual meaning behind it).

But the various gods cobbled together into the One True God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob ain't it.

[Ghost in the Machine]

40. Thanks for the answer... I was brought up in a church-going home myself,..

... but started rejecting it when I was about 15 and fully rejected it by the time I was 16.

I also believe there's a more intelligent life form "out there", somewhere. I've spoken about my beliefs in a few posts before. I personally think my theory, which combines a form of intelligent design AND evolution, is much more plausible that that of a magical, mythical sky fairy, even though it includes beings from another planet and interplanetary travel.

PEACE!

Ghost

[SDuderstadt]

43. I was 12 and sitting in church with my family when....

I said (to myself), "I don't believe any of this stuff".

[Ghost in the Machine]

44. From as young as I can remember, the only thing I ever felt in church was scared...

when I was real little my mom went to a church that had one of those redfaced, gulp-breathed, screaming of fire & brimstone preachers. I actually ran out of the church one sunday and hid in the playground because I was so scared...

As I got older, I never felt anything either.. even when going through the motions of getting baptised when my dad did (I was 14 then). My dad never went to church before then, but had some kind of religious experience and started going... luckily it only lasted a couple of years..

[SDuderstadt]

45. I know the feeling...

as a kid, I was convinced my dead relatives could see everything I did from heaven. Talk about guilt!

[OmmmSweetOmmm]

42. It appears you are correct about earlier saying there was more than one Horus, but you are wrong

about the birthday of Horus - Isis/Osiris' son, coming on the second day of the extra five feast days of the year. Those five birthdays, according to Plutarch, a first century Greek were for the 5 children of Nut, Ra's wife. As follows - On the first of these days, Nut gave birth to Osiris. On the second day Horus was born, Seth on the third, Isis the fourth, and Nephthys on the fifth day.

http://faculty.mdc.edu/jmcnair/Joe12pages/The%20Osiris%20Legend1.htm

...snip.......

The Lord of All the Earth is Born.

In the beginning, there was the mighty god Ra and his wife Nut. Nut was in love with the god Geb. When Ra found out about this union he was furious. In his rage, he forbade Nut to have children on any of the 360 days that currently made up the year. Nut was very sad. She called on her friend, Thoth, to help her. He knew that Ra's curse must be fulfilled, but he had an idea.



Thoth engaged the moon goddess, Silene, in a wager. At the time, Silene's light (the moon) rivaled the light of Ra (the sun). Thoth was victorious, he was rewarded with one seventh of Silene's light.



This is why the moon now wanes each month.



Thoth took this light and added five days to the calendar, bringing the year from 360 days to 365. This gave Nut 5 days on which she could have children, while at the same time obeying Ra's commandment.



On the first of these days, Nut gave birth to Osiris. On the second day Horus was born, Seth on the third, Isis the fourth, and Nephthys on the fifth day.



At the time of Osiris' birth, a loud voice was heard all over the world, saying, "The lord of all the earth is born."

[OmmmSweetOmmm]

46. More from Plutarch, 1st Century Greek on Horus, and Solstice Birth

http://www.umich.edu/~kelseydb/Exhibits/Karanis83/KaranisExcavation/temple2.html

The cult of Harpocrates flourished in Egypt during the Roman era; and we know from three notices in the tax rolls that there was a priest of his cult at Karanis.32 Moreover, many additional images of Harpocrates, in paintings as wellas terracotta figurines, were found in the granaries and houses throughout the town, indicating that the god was highly esteemed in the private sphere as well.33 The popularity of Harpocrates in agrarian communities like Karanis may be attributed, in large part, to his close association with the fertility of the earth. Harpocrates, or Horus the Child, was thought to have been conceived by Isis after the murder and dismemberment of her husband, Osiris, by his wicked brother; Seth. According to the well-known myth, Isis traveled over the whole land gathering up the pans of the body of Osiris, and then magically restored him to life. Thereafter, Osiris reigned in the underworld as lord of life after death. This myth, central to Egyptian religion in all periods, was readily related by ordinary people to the cycle of the agricultural year. In fact, this was so common that Plutarch speaks disparagingly of

... the many boring people who find pleasure in associating the activities of these gods with the seasonal changes of the atmosphere or with the growth, sowing and ploughing of crops, and who say that Osiris is being buried when the corn is sown and hidden in the earth, and that he lives again and reappears when it begins to sprout.34

As regards the infant god Harpocrates, Plutarch goes on to report the generally held belief that Isis

... at the winter solstice gave birth to Harpocrates, imperfect and prematurely born, amid plants that burgeoned and sprouted before their season (and so they bring to him as offering the first-fruits of growing lentils)....35

[Bolo Boffin]

47. "the winter solstice gave birth to Harpocrates" - Has December 25 ever been the winter solstice?

Isn't December 20th or 21st the usual day of the winter solstice?

Haven't you just proven that Harpocrates wasn't born on December 25th?

Why are you continuing to embarrass yourself like this?

http://www.fourmilab.ch/documents/calendar/#juliancalendar

Plug the Gregorian date of the solstice for year 1 (the proposed year of Christ's birth) into that calculator.

December 21 gives you the 23rd of December in the Julian calendar. In the actual year Christ was born (according to mythology), the solstice was on December 23, Julian.

Some people think Jesus was born as early as 6 BCE. Fine. Plug that in. Same difference.

Horus didn't have the same birthday as Jesus.

In the first three centuries, anyone celebrating Jesus' birth did so on January 7th, Julian, ANYWAY!

Jesus Fucking Christ.

THE CORRELATION IS ONLY IN YOUR MIND.

[OmmmSweetOmmm]

48. As per the Julian Calendar

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Festival_of_the_birth_of_the_Unconquered_Sun

(When Julius Caesar introduced the Julian Calendar in 45 BCE, December 25 was approximately the date of the solstice. In modern times, the solstice falls on December 21 or 22.)


And on edit... you are just not getting it. We don't know when Christ was born. The fact is that there are "pagan" holidays that were precursors to Christ's selected birthday, and in order to make celebration of his birthday more palatable, they used for the "pagans" celeberations to adopt Christianity. Several people have said to you this already on this thread.


And please refrain from your insulting comments. They are uncalled for.

[Bolo Boffin]

49. You have completely destroyed your position.

There was a commonly accepted day that Jesus' birth was celebrated in the first three centuries. It wasn't December 25th.

There was a commonly accepted day that Horus' birthday was celebrated. It wasn't December 25th.

The Greeks reinterpreted Horus. The Romans reinterpreted Jesus.

But that means JESUS WASN'T HORUS.

Jesus wept.

[OmmmSweetOmmm]

50. With great patience, I will repeat

You are just not getting it. We don't know when Christ was born. The fact is that there are "pagan" holidays that were precursors to Christ's selected birthday, and in order to make celebration of his birthday more palatable, they used the "pagan's" celebrations to adopt Christianity. Several people have pointed this to you this already on this thread.

BTW....didn't Egypt become part of the Roman Empire, and in suit I would think, adopted the Julian Calendar. The Romans also adopted Harpocrates/Horus as a God.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harpocrates

[Bolo Boffin]

51. With great patience, I will repeat

Jesus' birthday was not originally celebrated on December 25th.

Horus' birthday was not originally celebrated on a date which was the equivalent of December 25th.

Therefore, both entities were materially different from each other AT THE TIME OF THEIR INCEPTION. One did not begat the other. That is what Zeitgeist is saying. That is why Zeitgeist is FALSE.

[OmmmSweetOmmm]

52. You are still not getting what I've said. In fact, your first statement

is in agreement with me. Jesus' birthday was not originally celebrated on December 25th. I should have made this statement clearer...they used the "pagan's" celebrations to adopt Christianity. Ergo, December 25th was adopted as Christ's birthday.

As to Horus, the day that his birthday morphed to December 25th, was well before when December 25th was selected for Christ's birthday. The Julian Calendar was established in 45BC/BCE. You, yourself said Christ's birthday was celebrated for 3 centuries on a different date.

[Bolo Boffin]

53. Wow.

Do you not understand what Zeitgeist is saying?

If Horus is Jesus, then Jesus has always been Horus, and Jesus' birthday has always been celebrated on December 25. This is not the case. Jesus existed separate and apart from Horus.

[OmmmSweetOmmm]

54. You haven't seen Zeitgeist!!!!! Zeitgeist never says that Horus is Jesus

or Jesus is Horus, or Mithra is Jesus, etc etc etc.

Watch the film and get back to this thread.

BTW...the whole point of the first section of Zeitgeist is to show that there are commonalties in religious "myths", and religion has been used to control the masses.

[wildbilln864]

56. "Do you not understand what Zeitgeist is saying?"

Obviously bolo, you don't. :eyes:

[Name removed]

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