Actual, legitimate evidence OBL is responsible for 9/11---Does it exist?

[nebula]

To this day, the FBI's wanted poster for OBL does not mention 9/11.

www.fbi.gov/wanted/topten/fugitives/laden.htm


The only thing I've ever seen so far is the alleged 'fat Osama' confession tape
released by the White House, which has been proven to be a fake.
And a pretty ridiculous one at that.

So is there anything else, other than the phony tape?






Who do the these clowns think they're fooling?

:rofl:

[Bolo Boffin]

1. You're only fooling yourself.

[nebula]

3. Go get your eyes examined

only a blind person or a moron would think they are the same person.

:rofl:

[vincent_vega_lives]

9. Eyesight, in this case is irrelivant.

http://www.muckrakerreport.com/id372.html

While reading some of the coverage and investigation done by Maher Osseiran on the bin Laden confession tape, and his assertion that the tape is likely actually a tape of bin Laden himself, it occurred to me that since the tape was recorded in the Pakistan region, it was likely recorded in PAL video format. In the United States, we use the NTSC format. The difference is primarily that the standard PAL format has the same spatial resolution horizontally, but vertically it has a higher spatial resolution (720 x 576 for PAL – 720 x 480 for NTSC) than doe NTSC. Many PAL and NTSC converters simply eliminate the extra horizontal lines from the PAL format in order to conform to the NTSC format. This results in an image that appears to be ‘squashed’ along the vertical axis…making people and objects look fatter after the conversion.

[vincent_vega_lives]

2. That is a lie

The tape was not proven to be a fake. It was claimed to be a fake by individuals ignorant the facts involved.

[nebula]

4. The FBI thinks the tape is fake

Do you know something the FBI doesn't?

[vincent_vega_lives]

5. Until you back up your claim

that the FBI thinks that tape is a fake, I will presume it to be a lie as well.

[nebula]

6. See FBI's official wanted poster for OBL

to this day it makes no mention of 9/11 anywhere.

[vincent_vega_lives]

10. No evidence

The tape itself would not constitute hard evidence of direct involvement.

Lack of evidence is not an indication innocence, nor evidence of a conspiracy.

[vincent_vega_lives]

11. Knowingly basing your claim

that the tape is a fake on an assumption rather than a fact constitutes an incorrect statement at least and at worse a lie.

[nebula]

12. The phony confession tape is a lie.

[vincent_vega_lives]

13. Your claim the tape is a lie is a lie.

This is worse than a Colbert skit.

[Sweet Pea]

58. That's your evidence...

that the video is a fake?



:eyes:

[nebula]

8. So the answer is no

there is nothing else which connects OBL to 9/11, other than a phony confession tape released by the BUSH WHITE HOUSE, of all places.

In other words, the 'evidence' comes from Bush himself.

Yeah, that makes it REAL credible.

[wildbilln864]

43. you got it!

:hi:

[wildbilln864]

42. BULLSHIT!

It has not been verified by any credible source. UBL is dead! and another link :eyes:

[vincent_vega_lives]

62. Bill you get my vote for this forum's most vapid posts (n/t)

[nebula]

7. dupe

[noise]

14. Would the Bush administration

lie about something so important? :patriot:

If someone at the FBI truly wanted to tell the public something one would hope someone there would have the courage to do so without some insane secret alert by way of missing wanted poster information.

The only way to determine the truth about al Qaeda, bin Laden and 9/11 would be for the US and Saudi governments to declassify all their evidence and let officials talk about what they know on the record. I'm sure this will happen within the next fews days. :sarcasm:

[greyl]

15. Compare it with the evidence that Silverstein was involved.

Osama warned us that he wanted to, he had a motive, he had the means, the hijackers confessed beforehand on videotape, and Osama and others who knew him have admitted to the deed afterward.

The fact that we had warnings about the attack but they happened anyway is something the Bush admin should never live down. Apparently, you'd like to bury that truth under a pile of deceptive bullshit.

[vincent_vega_lives]

16. But yet

if you accuse the Bush Administration of incompetence for not listening to the warnings you are a "Bush Apologist".

[greyl]

18. Yep. Some people need to believe Evil Geniuses are controlling their lives. nt

[noise]

21. Some people probably don't want to consider

the concept of manufactured blowback. Perhaps even Chomsky doesn't want to consider such a prospect.

[noise]

19. I'd call it criminal negligence

at best. Dereliction of duty also comes to mind.

Turning in a paper without running a spelling check fits the notion of incompetence. It doesn't seem to do justice to ignoring crucial warnings of a massive terrorist attack.

Strange how the "incompetent" Bush administration successfully made the case that the real reason 9/11 wasn't prevented was due to the lack of police state tactics. Did it (the police state tactics PR campaign) have anything to do with anthrax floating around D.C.? Not at all! That was a "coincidence" followed by an "incompetent" FBI investigation.

[mhatrw]

24. Motive, means and opportunity.

Who had more or all three, OBL or war profiteers?

[greyl]

32. I said "compare it with the evidence that Silverstein was involved".

To answer your question anyway: Osama.
You don't consider him a war profiteer? Bush, Cheney, Wolfowitz, Rumsfeld, Perle, etc, all ate right into Osama's and Chalabi's little hands.

[mhatrw]

49. Our war profiteers far outclass theirs on means, motive AND opportunity. n/t

[greyl]

51. I said "compare it with the evidence that Silverstein was involved".

I don't see you doing that.

[mhatrw]

52. That's because your bullshit test is a load of crap.

Our war profiteers far outclass theirs when it comes to means, motive AND opportunity.

Those are the facts.

[greyl]

56. The fact that we had warnings about the attack but they happened anyway

is something the Bush admin should never live down. Apparently, you'd like to bury that truth under a pile of deceptive bullshit.

Go ahead and explain what events occurred on 9/11 that war profiteers had more means, motive, and opportunity than Al Queda to execute.

[Andre II]

70. More means

"Go ahead and explain what events occurred on 9/11 that war profiteers had more means, motive, and opportunity than Al Queda to execute."

The lack of any air defense.
In fact the alleged hijackers did evrything to raise the risk of being intercepted eg take off in Boston to attack New York. Wait on UA 93 although the flight was 40 minutes late more than half an hour before taking over the cockpit etc.

[Ghost in the Machine]

87. Yes, it's something the Bush misadministration should never live down.. BUT...

.. (there's always a but, isn't there?)... BUT... what *you* ascribe to incompetence, some of us ascribe to complicity...

"ok, you've covered your ass now"...

Incompetence doesn't get you everything you want, including your "catastrophic and catalyzing event - like a new Pearl Harbor", and everything that has followed it since... do you honestly think they wrote the Patriot Act in a month?

LIHOP, at the very least. Incompetence doesn't cut it here... maybe an illusion of incompetence, but not *real* incompetence.

Would people *purposely* make themselves look incompetent?? You betcha they would. I do it myself from time to time. Why? Different reasons, usually. Mostly though, because it makes people expect less out of you.. and it surprises them when you exceed their perceptions/expectations. Other times it's just because I wanna get out of doing something I don't really want to do in the first place. I have a good cover though.. I just *look* like a big dumb hillbilly...

[Andre II]

28. That's all the evidence you can come uo with, greyl?

Wow, with this standardyou would alsso "prove" that the Red Brigade did the Bologna bombing and killed in the worst terrorist attack on Italian soil 85 people.....
Hint: It wasn"t the Red Brigade as we now know. It was state- sponsored terrorism.
You don't have anything more solid as evidence....

[greyl]

33. No, it isn't all of it. I simply provided a summary to be compared with the "evidence" against

Silverstein.

[Andre II]

34. So, please, greyl

why don't you present your hard evidence here?

[greyl]

36. Based on the so-called OCT version of bin laden's involvement in 9/11,

what incriminating evidence against bin laden do you think is missing?

It's not like it's claimed he was one of the hijackers, or that he ordered WTC7 to be "pulled".

Do you believe neither he nor any other fundmentalist Muslims who were(and still are) offended and pissed off at the US's presence in Muslim land had zero involvement?

[Andre II]

37. Maybe my English is not at its best today

but my post clearly ask you to present hard evidence of bin Laden being involved.
You can add hard evidence showing the famous 19 alleged hijackers did it.
Should be an easy one, no?

[greyl]

40. Maybe it isn't.

If you understood my question and ran it through your mind, you might comprehend what I'm getting at.

Please define what you mean by "hard evidence".
I already surmise that you're either ignoring previous discussions on this, or are demanding an inappropriately high level of evidence that Osama was involved.
I'd rather defend Silverstein and others against bullshit attacks from The 9/11 Truth Industry than specifically prosecute Osama bin laden. Especially in a thread with such a stupid opening post, where I know a few of the people involved are champions of invincible ignorance.

[Name removed]

59. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[victordrazen]

17. No evidence

except talking heads went on tv and immediately started saying it was him without any proof. That's an example of official conspiracy theorists "facts".

[vincent_vega_lives]

20. You don't need proof to make the connection

The problem is you do need it to stand up in a court of law.

[Flatulo]

22. He admitted it.

http://www.pbs.org/newshour/updates/binladen_10-29-04.html

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2001/11/11/wbin11.xml

[nebula]

23. The key phrase here being....

'...there was no way to authenticate the tape or say when it was made.'
--PBS





Will the real Osama please stand up?

How many dubious confession tapes are we up to now? I lost count.





2001



And yet, still no indictment or charges for 9/11 has ever been issued.

[mhatrw]

25. With evidence like that, who has anymore questions?

Somebody who may or may not be who some people claim him to be, a person who may or may not be alive, a person who, if he is alive, may or may not be working for the powerful interests he used to serve, may or may not have taken responsibility for the 9/11 attacks depending on when asked by whom and who is translating.

With rock solid evidence like that, who can have any remaining questions? "If talking heads say so, he made the buildings blow."

[vincent_vega_lives]

26. You would think

That a group able to pull off the 9-11 attacks and not get caught would be able to come up with some solid evidence to pin it on somone.

No solid Osama evidence. No WMD, just vage 'intelligence' but that's all part of the conspiricy....right?

[mhatrw]

29. You mean like the obviously planted evidence that "convicted" the

19 hijackers?

Or like the extra bombs the 7.7 guys left in the trunk of their car for the hell of it?

[vincent_vega_lives]

35. 19 Hijackers

With no links to Saddam and only curisory links to Al Queda? So thats your idea of a good information operation? Brilliant.

Now we're on to the British bombing?

[mhatrw]

50. Show me one conspiracy in which wholly believable evidence was planted,

and I'll show you a conspiracy that was so successful that nobody even suspected a conspiracy.

[vincent_vega_lives]

60. Now there's logic for yah

It's only a conspiracy if the evidence doesn't make sense.

[mhatrw]

80. No. It's a more successful conspiracy (in that it is typically never found out)

if the evidence makes sense.

[Name removed]

27. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Bolo Boffin]

30. He did not deny involvement. He denied executing the plan.

That was KSM's job.

[Andre II]

31. He did not deny his involvement?

Islamic militant leader Osama bin Laden, the man the United States considers the prime suspect in last week's terrorist attacks on New York and Washington, denied any role Sunday in the actions believed to have killed thousands.

In a statement issued to the Arabic satellite channel Al Jazeera, based in Qatar, bin Laden said, "The U.S. government has consistently blamed me for being behind every occasion its enemies attack it.

"I would like to assure the world that I did not plan the recent attacks, which seems to have been planned by people for personal reasons," bin Laden's statement said.
http://archives.cnn.com/2001/US/09/16/inv.binladen.denial/

So, according to you this with this statement "He did not deny involvement"

:eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes:

[Bolo Boffin]

38. Other translations say "execute" for "plan".

This is a classic non-denial denial.

[Andre II]

39. Spin Spin Spin

You can spin as mus as you want: Osama is very clear in his wording.
Maybe you like this one better?

"I have already said that I am not involved in the 11 September attacks in the United States. As a Muslim, I try my best to avoid telling a lie. I had no knowledge of these attacks, nor do I consider the killing of innocent women, children and other humans as an appreciable act. Islam strictly forbids causing harm to innocent women, children and other people. Such a practice is forbidden even in the course of a battle.


The United States should try to trace the perpetrators of these attacks within itself; the people who are a part of the U.S. system, but are dissenting against it. Or those who are working for some other system; persons who want to make the present century as a century of conflict between Islam and Christianity so that their own civilization, nation, country, or ideology could survive. They can be anyone, from Russia to Israel and from India to Serbia. In the U.S. itself, there are dozens of well-organized and well-equipped groups, which are capable of causing a large-scale destruction. Then you cannot forget the American-Jews, who are annoyed with President Bush ever since the elections in Florida and want to avenge him."

http://www.robert-fisk.com/usama_interview_ummat.htm

[Flatulo]

41. You're selectively mining the various communiques from bin Laden.

He has 'confessed' on several occasions.

Why do you ignore these?

[wildbilln864]

44. well post your "several occassions" for us to verify...

unless of course you just made that up. :popcorn: And make sure they're "several" seperate occassions. :rofl:

[Flatulo]

45. I referenced some right here...

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=125&topic_id=201982&mesg_id=202049

[wildbilln864]

46. you referenced two seperate reports of the same video!

Try again! :eyes:

[Flatulo]

47. The admissions are separated by three years,

The first 'admission' came in Nov '01.

The second came in Oct '04.

[wildbilln864]

54. he was dead in 04!

linky
and he said he did not do it here. in 01!
:popcorn:

[greyl]

55. You believe "a prominent official in the Afghan Taleban movement"?

Oooookay.

[wildbilln864]

65. Better than believing known liars IMHO!

If he was still alive we'd know it. :eyes:

[Andre II]

69. Selective?

No, I'm not selective. I've quoted all his statements in September 2001. Statements the OTC prefer to forget. He simply and clearly denied ANY involvement. A bit strange if you've just succeded the biggest terror attack ever. His statement from December 2001 was mistranslated in its crucial parts. So, when did the first bin Laden statements appear where he accepts responsibility ....? And what importance does this still have? If any bin Laden statement has any value as some sort of evidence then certainly the statements right after 911.

[Bolo Boffin]

71. The Taliban was unaware of his part in 9/11.

Read The Looming Tower.

eta: I think that's right. I'm at work and not where I can check the book.

[wildbilln864]

53. another note...

" "The American translators who listened to the tapes and transcribed them apparently wrote a lot of things in that they wanted to hear but that cannot be heard on the tape no matter how many times you listen to it.""
link

[nebula]

73. Nice find wildbill

:thumbsup:

[victordrazen]

64. he admitted it after he denied it

and the tapes/videos of him are fake. It would make NO SENSE for him to do something that would cause "infidels" to invade foreign countries, which he has said he is against.

[Flatulo]

48. To answer the question in the OP honestly - no, there is no

evidence in the forensic sense.

However, history is replete with examples of nations meting out punishment to individuals for crimes committed by subordinates. Think Nuremburg.

But law enforcement is not the preferred tool to bring bin Laden to justice. Bush chose war.

[Andre II]

67. What evidence is there that subordinates of bin laden did it?

Btw in Nurnberg there were all the high ups of Nazi Germany save Hitler and Goebbels eg there was Goering.

[Flatulo]

72. Atta, al-Jarrah, al-Shirhi and al-Gamdi left suicide videos. nt

[mhatrw]

81. Can you link up these "suicide videos" for us to see? Thanks. n/t

[Bolo Boffin]

82. All right then.

Ahmad Al-Haznawi

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=614087407150933240&hl=en

Abdul Aziz Al-Umari

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-18610368362479933&q=&hl=en

Walid Al-Shiri

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=5244390242616780008&q=&hl=en

That's three right there.

[mhatrw]

83. Thanks! When were these videos first released? Who does the OCT say is posting them on

google video? Also, if anyone knows where the Atta video is, I'd appreciate seeing it as well.

[Flatulo]

84. Thanks Bolo - I was going to post these links but you beat me to it. nt

[Perry Logan]

57. If 9/11 had been an inside job, there would be plenty of evidence against Osama.

The people involved in a conspiracy usually cook up plenty of evidence against the ostensible bad guy. In my mind, the presumed lack of evidence against OBL points away from a conspiracy, not toward it.

[vincent_vega_lives]

61. Or Saddam (n/t)

[balantz]

63. Or perhaps Osama was a part of the inside job.

Evidence pointing to him could point to the administration.

There is that way of looking at it too.

[Andre II]

66. So, the bigger the lack of evidence against Osama

the more it shows Osama did it?
Do I get this straight??

Why don't you start where people usually start: Look at the evidence.
And answer the question of the OP where the evidence against bin Laden.

[nebula]

74. It's a joke.

a grainy, inaudible video tape isn't evidence of anything.

[Bolo Boffin]

75. LOL!

The tape isn't inaudible just because you don't understand Arabic.

[nebula]

76. Arabs who have heard the tape

said several parts are inaudible.

the tapes are grainy, inaudible, but most of all UNAUTHENTICATED.


I guess it doesn't take much to satisfy the Kool-Aid drinkers.

[Bolo Boffin]

77. Oh, so "several parts" are inaudible and therefore you can say the whole thing is inaudible.

:rofl:

I win!

I get a cookie.

[Name removed]

78. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[nebula]

79. Unauthenticated

What part of that do you not understand?

[Bolo Boffin]

68. The Looming Tower by Lawrence Wright is a good place to start. n/t

[leftofthedial]

85. not you nebula (thanks for the post), but to everyone else . . .

your bullshit is a total load of crap and you suck, you're a liar, your lies are weak, your posts are vapid, you have no idea what you're talking about and your bullshit is full of bullshit that is full of crap.

Okay. Now can someone actually reply to the OP?

[Bolo Boffin]

86. See post #68, currently directly above your post. n/t

[wildbilln864]

88. nope...

no evidence there either! :shrug: