I have some simple questions.

[balantz]

Setting aside the "no planes at the WTC" video manipulation postulation, where is the conclusive evidence that there were planes at the other two sites?

Where are videos and photos of the Pentagon plane?

Where are photos of flight 93 wreckage?

Thanks in advance.

[LARED]

1. Not only where there photos, they are still

all over the Internet.

[balantz]

2. Thanks.

Could you kindly link to some good ones please?

The photos I've seen from original news coverage of the crash site of Flight 93 don't really show much more than a hole in the ground.

And the Pentagon photos I've seen show just a hole in the building.

[LARED]

3. I charge a Googling fee. If you're willing to pay for my services

I will be more than happy to help.

[Flatulo]

4. Do this...

Go to www.google.com

Select 'images' at the top of the screen, then enter 'flight 93 debris' and 'flight 77 debris'

[balantz]

5. Yeah, I've already done that.

That's one reason I came here.

I've seen plenty of photos of other airliner crashes over the years and none of them looked like the photos of the 9/11 sites.

[Sweet Pea]

6. Really

You've seen plenty of photos of other airline crashes. Well then, I suppose that makes you an expert. An "Airline Mishap" expert, at that!

Aren't we fortunate!

So can you tell us what a 90 ton airliner traveling at 500 mph SHOULD look like when it hits a concrete-reinforced building?

And, while you are at it, share with us what an airliner SHOULD look like when it flies, inverted, and at full speed, into a reclaimed strip-mining field?

And, just to close the loop, what an airliner SHOULD look like after it hits a skyscraper at high speed and then has 500,000 lbs of steel and concrete crush down on it?

I mean, since you've "seen plenty of photos of other airline crashes" and all, you should have no problem whatsoever telling us!

[balantz]

7. Sorry, not interested in a conversation with you

about my lack of credentials.

Or an endless debate about a green lawn in front of the Pentagon.

[Flatulo]

8. If you looked at the Pentagon photos, you should have seen

some fairly large chunks of fuselage, some crinkled gas turbines, a set of wheels and some other things that would have been hard to plant with over a hundred witnesses standing around.

Unless you had already made up your mind that there was no plane.

[maryf]

69. too bad the fuselage

was too small for the plane they claimed it to be...

[SDuderstadt]

70. Yeah, that'll usually happen to planes that...

slam into concrete structures going hundreds of miles per hour.

[Name removed]

71. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Realityhack]

72. Huh? How so?

How do you know it was too small based on the torn apart scraps in the debris around the pentagon. It's not like there is a nice chunk of intact cabin to carefully compare to the person standing next to it.

[Name removed]

9. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Rosa Luxemburg]

37. The fact is that Flight 77 DID NOT I repeat DID NOT hit the Pentagon!

[balantz]

10. Can anyone tell me why there were no gouges , scrapes or burns

on the Pentagon lawn?

Can anyone tell me why some number of photos or video record isn't available from probably numerous cameras at the site?

Perhaps I've missed such photos.

[Bolo Boffin]

11. Perhaps you've missed such photos.

I hope the Pentagon kept its warranty information on that Pentalawn!

[Ghost in the Machine]

65. Perhaps *you* should learn the difference between grass & pavement??

just sayin'...

[SDuderstadt]

12. I'm just curious...

Are you implying or suspecting no plane hit the Pentagon? If so, upon what basis?

[jberryhill]

13. Because it didn't hit the lawn

...as you can plainly see by the semicircular gouges in the retaining wall and generator unit:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YVDdjLQkUV8

[balantz]

14. Some say it did.

The Boeing 757 struck Wedge 1 on the Heliport side of the Pentagon very low to the ground and entered Wedge 1 just to the north of Corridor 4 on the first and second floors. - Annual Status Report to Congress

"And the plane came through the first floor, right through Naval Ops..." - CNN

"As eyewitnesses described and photographs demonstrate, the hijacked airliner dived so low as it approached the Pentagon that it actually hit the ground first, thereby dissipating much of the energy that might otherwise have caused more extensive damage to the building." - Snopes.com

"The plane slammed into the west wall of the Pentagon. The impact was deafening. The fuselage hit the ground and blew up." - Delaware Online

"I watched in horror as the plane flew at treetop level, banked slightly to the left, drug it's wing along the ground and slammed into the west wall of the Pentagon exploding into a giant orange fireball." - James Madison Univ.

"Then he caught an edge of his wing on the ground. There is a helicopter pad right in front of the side of the Pentagon. The wing touched there, then the plane cart wheeled into the building." - Time

"It is also evident that the plane was on the ground before striking the Pentagon albeit skimming the grass. I might also point out that distant photos will miss details on the ground that up-close observation would show." - Christian Patriots/Pentagon Crash Analysis


Patrick Di Justo: "The plane hit the ground first, then slid into the building." - Paul Boutin weblogger.com



I found those quotes here: http://killtown.911review.org/pentalawn.html

There are also photos of the unscathed lawn. I don't know how to post the photos here and would appreciate it if someone would.

[jberryhill]

24. Yeah...

...judging a separation of several feet from a perspective hundreds of feet away of an object going something like 200 mph is pretty common.

The concrete retaining wall and the generator clearly show circular gouges consistent with the separation distance and radius of the 757 engines.

Whatever happened has to be consistent with the light poles, and those impacts.

So, if an eyewitness thinks the plane hit the ground, and the ground doesn't show an impact, what do you conclude?

[Ghost in the Machine]

15. but... but.... but....

"Steve Anderson (USA TODAY Employee)
I watched in horror as the plane flew at treetop level, banked slightly to the left, drug it's wing along the ground and slammed into the west wall of the Pentagon exploding into a giant orange fireball."
http://www.jmu.edu/alumni/tragedy_response/read_messages.html

[jberryhill]

25. So are you saying he didn't see a plane hit the Pentagon?

Or are you saying that he's mistaken about it dragging along the ground?

Did it then come off of the ground to put the gouge in the retaining wall and the generator?

[Ghost in the Machine]

32. No, I'm not saying anything, I'm merely pointing out what a witness said..

*You* are the one who said it didn't hit the ground...

Would you like to take a crack at this one?

"Ken Ford
We were watching the airport through binoculars, he said, referring to Reagan National Airport, a short distance away. The plane was a two-engine turbo prop that flew up the river from National. Then it turned back toward the Pentagon. We thought it had been waved off and then it hit the building."
http://www.delawareonline.com/newsjournal/local/2001/09/pdf/09112001EXTRA2.pdf

:shrug:

[balantz]

33. Now THAT eyewitness must be nuts.

Doesn't he know what a huge, roaring, low-flying jet looks like?

:sarcasm:

[Ghost in the Machine]

42. Yeah really, huh? :-) Which raises another question....

If a plane was flying straight at you at low altitude, would you even be *able* to see & read the sides and tail? Especially if it passed "right over my head at about 25 feet"...? All you would see is the belly of the plane if it was only 25 feet directly above you and going 500mph...

[jberryhill]

46. That's why witness accounts vary

People's minds are not tape recorders, and have a tendency to fill in the blanks of what they are looking at, particularly with a fast traumatic event. In general, it seems that a lot of people saw an airplane hit the Pentagon.

The light poles indicate pretty precisely what the flight path was, as well as the column damage inside the pentagon, and the chunks taken out of the retaining wall and the generator.

[jberryhill]

34. I think if a plane hit the lawn

...it would've left a mark.

[Ghost in the Machine]

39. Unless it hit the helicopter pad.....

"David Marra, 23, an information-technology specialist, had turned his BMW off an I-395 exit to the highway just west of the Pentagon when he saw an American Airlines jet swooping in, its wings wobbly, looking like it was going to slam right into the Pentagon: "It was 50 ft. off the deck when he came in. It sounded like the pilot had the throttle completely floored. The plane rolled left and then rolled right. Then he caught an edge of his wing on the ground." There is a helicopter pad right in front of the side of the Pentagon. The wing touched there, then the plane cartwheeled into the building."
http://www.time.com/time/world/article/0,8599,174655-4,00.html

Another witness claims that the plane HIT a helicopter parked on the pad, causing an occupied fire truck to catch fire...

"Maj. Leibner drove in and made it as far as the south parking lot, where he got out on foot. "I heard the plane first," he said. "I thought it was a flyover Arlington cemetery." From his vantage point, Maj. Leibner looked up and saw the plane come in. "I was about 100 yards away," he said. "You could see through the windows of the aircraft. I saw it hit." The plane came in hard and level and was flown full throttle into the building, dead center mass, Maj. Leibner said. "The plane completely entered the building," he said. "I got a little repercussion, from the sound, the blast. I've heard artillery, and that was louder than the loudest has to offer. I started running toward the site. I jumped over a fence. I was probably the first person on the scene." A tree and the backend of a crash truck at the heliport near the crash site were on fire and the ground was scorched, Maj. Leibner recounted. "The plane went into the building like a toy into a birthday cake," he said. "The aircraft went in between the second and third floors." At that point, no one was outside. Spotting a Pentagon door that had been blown off its hinges, Maj. Leibner went in and out several times, helping rescue several people. "The very first person was right there," he said. "She could walk. I walked her out onto the grass." Maj. Leibner said a police officer pulled up onto the grass and began to help. "Everybody was hurt," Maj. Leibner said. "They were all civilian females. Everybody was burned on their hands and faces.
http://www.usmedicine.com/article.cfm?articleID=384&issueID=38

Captain Lincoln Leibner says the aircraft struck a helicopter on the helipad, setting fire to a fire truck. We got one guy out of the cab," he said, adding he could hear people crying inside the wreckage. Captain Liebner, who had cuts on his hands from the debris, says he has been parking his car in the car park when the crash occurred."
http://abc.net.au/news/2001/09/item20010911230953_1.htm

:shrug:

[jberryhill]

40. ...and then turned a pretty sharp corner....

In order to damage the columns this way...

[Ghost in the Machine]

41. Picture link isn't working...

... but what about a witness saying he pulled someone out of a burning fire truck that caught on fire because of the plane hitting a helicopter on the pad?

How about one witness who says the plane penetrated the building like a toy through a birthday cake, but another who says the nose of the plane crumpled & curled up, the tail section broke off and the plane exploded... and the wall resisted the impact??

How do you decide who to believe?

[vincent_vega_lives]

57. Jesus Christ it's back to 2002

Not the amazing Pentalawn?

Nope no evidence of burning at all.

?v=1158104150

http://www.flickr.com/photos/slagheap/180052863/

[balantz]

16. Here's one of only two videos I've seen

out of presumably scads of cameras at the Pentagon.

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-5658198482624505213&q=9/11+crash

Why not show the whole world all of the videos?

There must be at least one camera that caught a closer view of such a massive plane.

[balantz]

17. Hey, I found another video.

About 30 seconds into this video, which includes a gas station surveillance footage, the red box outlines the incoming object at the Pentagon:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r81u55jWTg8&feature=related

[balantz]

18. Interesting video.

Don't you think?

[balantz]

19. Kind of piss-poor choices though.

Too bad there aren't more to view, like from all of the surveillence cameras at the Pentagon itself.

I wonder why?

[SDuderstadt]

20. Do you know what the surveillance cameras are for...

and where they are aimed? Or, are you just guessing?

Similarly, do you understand that surveillance cameras typically shoot at a very low frames-per-second rate? Why do you think a plane going as fast as AA77 would even show up on the camera(s)? Do the math.

[balantz]

21. You know what?

I don't need math to know that whole area is riddled with cameras.

Even a stooge should know that.

I mean, come on, This is the Pentagon! You know what I'm saying?

Even the sky for miles around should have cameras pointing in all directions. Good ones too!

That big old roaring plane sure snuck up on them there!

What a hoot!

I hear it was flown right above the ground at break-neck speed by an amateur.

He could have given ol' Darth Vader himself a run for the money flying like that!

[LARED]

22. You know what I'm saying?

No, not really.

[SDuderstadt]

23. Look at an aerial photo of the Pentagon...

Note it's proximity to Reagan National Airport. Think this through.

For the life of me, I don't know what "Even the sky for miles around should have cameras pointing in all directions. Good ones too!" means. There are cameras in the sky? And, even if there were, how was the Pentagon supposed to defend itself? You do know, of course, that the Pentagon had no missile battery or like defense system then, right?

The thing I find most tiring about "truthers" is they make judgments based on ignorance about the way they think things work or ought to work, then make totally ludicrous claims and never remotely understand how stupid the claims are.

If you want to learn more about this research an ADIZ and discover why all of them were outward-facing prior to 9/11 (by outward-facing, I mean facing outwards from the continental US).

[balantz]

27. Duh!

My bad! I didn't word that correctly. What I meant to say was there must certainly be cameras looking up INTO the sky for miles around that facility.

Only one camera caught the "surprise visitor"? The camera at the front gate? That seems kind of silly to me.

Those people apparently weren't prepared for an attack from a big, noisy airplane flying toward the Pentagon. They should have had things set up better in that area. You would think that such an important military installation would be better prepared for ANY possible attack. Aren't there radars that blip when a plane is taking an unscheduled course change? Surely these guys have phones available to scramble a jet or two long before this big, lumbering jet sneaked up there to the front lawn?

Of course, I don't know, as I'm sure you will point out again, and again, but things just don't seem right at all about all of this.

How on earth did those beginner pilots fly so fast just above ground level?

[jberryhill]

30. What difference does it make how fast or high the plane was?

It's more difficult to fly a plane at 10 feet or 10,000 feet?

Aren't there radars that blip when a plane is taking an unscheduled course change? Surely these guys have phones available to scramble a jet or two long before this big, lumbering jet sneaked up there to the front lawn?

Did you ever spend any time in the DC area prior to 9/11? They were supposed to scramble a jet for every plane arriving or departing at the airport on the other side of the highway?

The assumption of air defense of this country for a long time was that enemy aircraft would be coming from outside of the country.

You bet an unscheduled flight hundreds of miles off the east coast heading toward the mid-atlantic states would certainly attract attention long before it got to DC.

Are you familiar with Air Florida flight 90?

This was the flight path of that crash - right next to the Pentagon:



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Air_Florida_Flight_90

The Pentagon in that diagram is the five-sided building labeled "Pentagon".

If it was on the other runway, guess what it would have hit.

[catnhatnh]

68. Thank God finally for confirmation...

I suspected several posters of this kind of horseshit.Most easily, what does an ice induced crash in the first moments of flight caused by normal (though fatal) icing in the winter have to do with the supposed terminus of a fall flight that had lasted several hours?
Your nonsense tries to prove there is no difference between the first 90 seconds of flight and the last 90 minutes of a flight and supposes there is no difference in terms of what radar might see.
I can be easily refuted...Tell me about how many seconds of warning were available before your cited crash and why this tragic immolation of the hub of US military activity was so foolish and confused.

[SDuderstadt]

43. It's pretty silly to refer to pilots with commercial licenses as...

beginner pilots.

[Ghost in the Machine]

51. Hani Hanjour had a commercial pilots license??

[vincent_vega_lives]

58. Apparently

In April 1996, Hanjour moved in with a host family in Oakland, California where he enrolled in intensive English studies at Holy Names College, and attended a single class at Sierra Academy of Aeronautics before withdrawing, citing financial worries about the $35,000 cost. Leaving Oakland in September and moving to Phoenix, Arizona, Hanjour paid $4,800 for lessons at CRM Flight Cockpit Resource Management in Scottsdale. He received poor marks from instructor Duncan Hastie, and left the school frustrated, compounded with the fact his recent Visa application had been denied.

Hanjour is recorded re-entering the United States on November 16, 1997. He made a brief sidetrip to Florida, before returning to Phoenix where he shared an apartment with Bandar al-Hazmi. In December, he again attended CRM Flight Cockpit Resource Management, though left after a few weeks training.

1998
Hanjour was still living with Bandar in January, and the two of them both took flying lessons at Arizona Aviation, where Hanjour eventually earned his commercial pilot rating.

After moving out of Bandar's place, Hanjour lived in several apartments in Tempe, Mesa and Phoenix, and enrolled in flight simulator classes at the Sawyer School of Aviation where he made only three or four visits. Interestingly Lotfi Raissi would begin taking lessons at the same school a month after Hanjour quit, part of what piqued the FBI's interest in Raissi.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hani_Hanjour

[Ghost in the Machine]

59. He held a license for 6 months in 1999...

Hani Hanjour:
Obtained a commercial pilot's license in April 1999 from the Federal Aviation Administration. The license expired six months later because he failed to complete a required medical exam. In 1996, he received flight training for a few months at a private school in Scottsdale, Ariz., but did not finish the course because his instructors thought he was not proficient enough. He listed his address as a post office box in Taife, Saudi Arabia, but he also has been linked to addresses in San Diego and Hollywood, Fla. His name was not on the American Airlines manifest for the flight because he may not have had a ticket.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/nation/graphics/attack/hijackers.html

[balantz]

60. Wonder why his name wasn't listed for the flight?

Hmmm. That seems pretty odd.

[Ghost in the Machine]

61. Yet we're just supposed to "believe" that he was on there.. because the government said so..

Sounds like jesus bush wants us to just have faith that Hani Hanjour was the pilot, huh?

[balantz]

62. Now that's one "belief"

that's just a little too hard to SWALLOW.

[SDuderstadt]

63. The idea that some or all of the hijackers were not even listed for the flight...

came about when the airlines initially released a VICTIM'S list as opposed to a passenger manifest. I don't know why anyone would think it suspicious that the airlines did not regard the hijackers as victims instead of perpetrators. I suggest you do research for the passenger manifests before you make more embarrassing claims and lose even more credibility when you have none to spare. If you can't find them, I'll find them for you when I have more time (probably to waste).

[Ghost in the Machine]

64. I suggest you learn to *read* before you embarrass yourself further

"His name was not on the American Airlines manifest for the flight because he may not have had a ticket.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/nation/graphics/attack/hijackers.html

A CNN report said there were 64 people onboard Flight 77, including passengers & crew... yet they only list 56 of them... does that mean there were 8 hijackers onboard?

AMERICAN AIRLINES FLIGHT 77
American Airlines Flight 77, from Washington to Los Angeles, crashed into the Pentagon with 64 people aboard.

CREW

Charles Burlingame of Herndon, Virginia, was the plane's captain. He is survived by a wife, a daughter and a grandson. He had more than 20 years of experience flying with American Airlines and was a former U.S. Navy pilot.

David Charlebois, who lived in Washington's Dupont Circle neighborhood, was the first officer on the flight. "He was handsome and happy and very centered," his neighbor Travis White, told The Washington Post. "His life was the kind of life I wanted to have some day."

Michele Heidenberger of Chevy Chase, Maryland, was a flight attendant for 30 years. She left behind a husband, a pilot, and a daughter and son.

Flight attendant Jennifer Lewis, 38, of Culpeper, Virginia, was the wife of flight attendant Kenneth Lewis.

Flight attendant Kenneth Lewis, 49, of Culpeper, Virginia, was the husband of flight attendant Jennifer Lewis.

Renee May, 39, of Baltimore, Maryland, was a flight attendant.


PASSENGERS

Paul Ambrose, 32, of Washington, was a physician who worked with the U.S. Department of Health and Human Services and the surgeon general to address racial and ethnic disparities in health. A 1995 graduate of Marshall University School of Medicine, Ambrose last year was named the Luther Terry Fellow of the Association of Teachers of Preventative Medicine.

Yeneneh Betru, 35, was from Burbank, California.

M.J. Booth

Bernard Brown, 11, was a student at Leckie Elementary School in Washington. He was embarking on an educational trip to the Channel Islands National Marine Sanctuary near Santa Barbara, California, as part of a program funded by the National Geographic Society.

Suzanne Calley, 42, of San Martin, California, was an employee of Cisco Systems Inc.

William Caswell

Sarah Clark, 65, of Columbia, Maryland, was a sixth-grade teacher at Backus Middle School in Washington. She was accompanying a student on an educational trip to the Channel Islands National Marine Sanctuary near Santa Barbara, California, as part of a program funded by the National Geographic Society.

Asia Cottom, 11, was a student at Backus Middle School in Washington. Asia was embarking on an educational trip to the Channel Islands National Marine Sanctuary near Santa Barbara, California, as part of a program funded by the National Geographic Society.

James Debeuneure, 58, of Upper Marlboro, Maryland, was a fifth-grade teacher at Ketcham Elementary School in Washington. He was accompanying a student on an educational trip to the Channel Islands National Marine Sanctuary near Santa Barbara, California, as part of a program funded by the National Geographic Society.

Rodney Dickens, 11, was a student at Leckie Elementary School in Washington. He was embarking on an educational trip to the Channel Islands National Marine Sanctuary near Santa Barbara, California, as part of a program funded by the National Geographic Society.

Eddie Dillard

Charles Droz

Barbara Edwards, 58, of Las Vegas, Nevada, was a teacher at Palo Verde High School in Las Vegas.

Charles S. Falkenberg, 45, of University Park, Maryland, was the director of research at ECOlogic Corp., a software engineering firm. He worked on data systems for NASA and also developed data systems for the study of global and regional environmental issues. Falkenburg was traveling with his wife, Leslie Whittingham, and their two daughters, Zoe, 8, and Dana, 3.

Zoe Falkenberg, 8, of University Park, Maryland, was the daughter of Charles Falkenberg and Leslie Whittingham.

Dana Falkenberg, 3, of University Park, Maryland, was the daughter of Charles Falkenberg and Leslie Whittingham.

Joe Ferguson was the director of the National Geographic Society's geography education outreach program in Washington. He was accompanying a group of students and teachers on an educational trip to the Channel Islands in California. A Mississippi native, he joined the society in 1987. "Joe Feguson's final hours at the Geographic reveal the depth of his commitment to one of the things he really loved," said John Fahey Jr., the society's president. "Joe was here at the office until late Monday evening preparing for this trip. It was his goal to make this trip perfect in every way."

Wilson "Bud" Flagg of Millwood, Virginia, was a retired Navy admiral and retired American Airlines pilot.

Dee Flagg

Richard Gabriel

Ian Gray, 55, of Washington was the president of a health-care consulting firm.

Stanley Hall, 68, was from Rancho Palos Verdes, California.

Bryan Jack, 48, of Alexandria, Virginia, was a senior executive at the Defense Department.

Steven D. "Jake" Jacoby, 43, of Alexandria, Virginia, was the chief operating officer of Metrocall Inc., a wireless data and messaging company.

Ann Judge, 49, of Virginia was the travel office manager for the National Geographic Society. She was accompanying a group of students and teachers on an educational trip to the Channel Islands in California. Society President John Fahey Jr. said one of his fondest memories of Judge is a voice mail she and a colleague once left him while they were rafting the Monkey River in Belize. "This was quintessential Ann -- living life to the fullest and wanting to share it with others," he said.

Chandler Keller, 29, was a Boeing propulsion engineer from El Segundo, California.

Yvonne Kennedy

Norma Khan, 45, from Reston, Virginia was a nonprofit organization manager.

Karen A. Kincaid, 40, was a lawyer with the Washington firm of Wiley Rein & Fielding. She joined the firm in 1993 and was part of the its telecommunications practice. She was married to Peter Batacan.

Norma Langsteuerle

Dong Lee

Dora Menchaca, 45, of Santa Monica, California, was the associate director of clinical research for a biotech firm.

Christopher Newton, 38, of Anaheim, California, was president and chief executive officer of Work-Life Benefits, a consultation and referral service. He was married and had two children. Newton was on his way back to Orange County to retrieve his family's yellow Labrador, who had been left behind until they could settle into their new home in Arlington, Virginia.

Barbara Olson, 45, was a conservative commentator who often appeared on CNN and was married to U.S. Solicitor General Theodore Olson. She twice called her husband as the plane was being hijacked and described some details, including that the attackers were armed with knives. She had planned to take a different flight, but she changed it at the last minute so that she could be with her husband on his birthday. She worked as an investigator for the House Government Reform Committee in the mid-1990s and later worked on the staff of Senate Minority Whip Don Nickles.

Ruben Ornedo, 39, of Los Angeles, California, was a Boeing propulsion engineer.

Robert Penniger, 63, of Poway, California, was an electrical engineer with BAE Systems.

Lisa Raines, 42, was senior vice president for government relations at the Washington office of Genzyme, a biotechnology firm. She was from Great Falls, Virginia, and was married to Stephen Push. She worked with the U.S. Food and Drug Administration on developing a new policy governing cellular therapies, announced in 1997. She also worked on other major health-care legislation.

Todd Reuben, 40, of Potomac, Maryland, was a tax and business lawyer.

John Sammartino

Diane Simmons

George Simmons

Mari-Rae Sopper of Santa Barbara, California, was a women's gymnastics coach at the University of California at Santa Barbara. She had just gotten the post August 31 and was making the trip to California to start work.

Bob Speisman, 47, was from Irvington, New York.

Hilda Taylor was a sixth-grade teacher at Leckie Elementary School in Washington. She was accompanying a student on an educational trip to the Channel Islands National Marine Sanctuary near Santa Barbara, California, as part of a program funded by the National Geographic Society.

Leonard Taylor was from Reston, Virginia.

Leslie A. Whittington, 45, was from University Park, Maryland. The professor of public policy at Georgetown University in Washington was traveling with her husband, Charles Falkenberg, 45, and their two daughters, Zoe, 8, and Dana, 3. They were traveling to Los Angeles to catch a connection to Australia. Whittington had been named a visiting fellow at Australian National University in Canberra.

John Yamnicky, 71, was from Waldorf, Maryland.

Vicki Yancey

Shuyin Yang

Yuguag Zheng
http://www.cnn.com/SPECIALS/2001/trade.center/victims/AA77.victims.html

So, were there 8 hijackers??

[vincent_vega_lives]

66. That's the ID'd Victim list not the passenger manifest.

http://911myths.com/index.php/No_hijackers_on_the_passenger_manifests

A CNN report said there were 64 people onboard Flight 77, including passengers & crew... yet they only list 56 of them... does that mean there were 8 hijackers onboard?

No.

"His name was not on the American Airlines manifest for the flight because he may not have had a ticket?

He is listed here.

[Ghost in the Machine]

67. Yeah, that's why I pointed out the difference between the Washington Post

mentioning the passenger manifest and the CNN article which referred to the "passenger list"... and the CNN link clearly says "victms" in the URL....

Thanks for the graphic, though...

PEACE!

Ghost

[jberryhill]

28. Please consider this picture.....

You know, I'm really surprised we haven't heard anyone claim that the plane that crashed into the nearby bridge from National a few years back wasn't some kind of "dry run".

That runway is National Airport (yeah, I know they re-named it, but I'm old fashioned).

I get the feeling that a lot of folks that comment on "air defense around the Pentagon" aren't very familiar with the general geography of Arlington and Crystal City.

He could have given ol' Darth Vader himself a run for the money flying like that!

...unless his plan was to hit one of the inner rings on the other side, in which case he missed completely, and hit a relatively low-occupied and more reinforced side.

[Flatulo]

31. Math is good for you...

Most surveillence cameras operate at 4 frames per second to minimize the storage requirements. NTSC video is 30 frames per second, and film is recorded at 24 frames per second, just to give you an idea how slow these thingss are.

At 4 frames per second, a picture is taken every 1/4 of a second.

An airplane travelling at 500 mph moves this many feet in one second:

500 miles/hour*5280 ft/mile*1 hour/3600 seconds = 733 feet

So in 1/4 of a second, it travels 183 feet. Since a 757-200 is only 155 feet long, it is conceivable that you could never even see a plane travelling this speed with a surveillence camera. At most, you could get a few partial frames, as the Pentagon security camera shows.

There is another bedrock principle of engineering and data collection known as the Nyquist criteria. In a nutshell, this says that if you want to observe a phenomenon, you have to look at it at least 2X faster than it is happening. In other words, in order to prove that a tree is swaying at 2 cycles per second, you would have to measure it with a device that can sample at a frequency of at least *4* cycles per second. If you sample at a lower frequency than that, your measurment is contaminated by a phenomenon known as aliasing. This is why wagon wheels in the movies often appear to turn backward in some scenes. The film is capturing the motion at 24 cycles per second, but if the wheel's spokes are flashing past the camera lens at anything faster than 12 times per second, the measurement is crap.

Now, I do not know if the array of cameras at the Pentagon were even pointed at the lawn in question, or if they were, if they operated at faster frame rates than the video released. It would be nice to see all the available videos, but this government is obsessed with secrecy making conditions ripe for conspiracy theories. Maybe the next Administration will release all the information.

[jberryhill]

26. Probably because....

There is a manned heliport adjacent to the empty lawn and the wall with no entrance.

Why would a security camera be trained on a stretch of empty lawn or a wall with no door?

[balantz]

29. So anyway,

where are the videos?

One video at the front gate just doesn't cut it for me. There must have been more.

[balantz]

35. Here is an eyewitness who filmed the aftermath at the Pentagon.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fYWIT9TSJPE&feature=related

And here is another look at the surveillance video I posted above that shows the "streak":

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lsWZHKIg3Cs&feature=related

[balantz]

36. This lays out the questions pretty well.

Some of the questions I have are asked in this film:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zAwtmun_aj8&feature=related

Also some interesting eyewitness accounts of a smaller plane & etc.

[Rosa Luxemburg]

38. yes it was hit with a missile

[SDuderstadt]

44. Yet, interestingly...

there isn't a SINGLE eyewitness that saw a missile strike the Pentagon, but over a hundred that saw a passenger plane hit it. Yet, you choose to believe the account with no witness whatsoever. Oy.

[Rosa Luxemburg]

50. nobody 'saw' a passenger plane actually hit it

[SDuderstadt]

52. Bullshit...there are a large number who saw the plane hit the Pentagon

Not only do you have multiple witnesses who saw the plane hit, you have exactly ZERO witnesses who saw a missle hit. Why you keep posting this crap is beyond me and why the "truth movement" is such an embarrassment to us progressives/liberals.


http://youtube.com/watch?v=f0vxc50xAbk

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ClVHovq4iTk

http://www.geocities.com/someguyyoudontknow33/witnesses.htm

http://mouv4x8.club.fr/11Sept01/A0082_b_They%20saw%20the%20aircraft.htm

http://911research.wtc7.net/pentagon/evidence/witnesses/sgydk.html

http://www.ratical.org/ratville/CAH/F77penta04.html

[balantz]

45. Bob Pugh

in the interview at the first link above thought it quite odd that there were no large airplane pieces like at so many other crash sites he has witnessed over the years.

[jberryhill]

47. Pilots are usually trying to *land* an aircraft in distress

Typically, pilots are not trying to hit an object as fast as they can, but are trying to crash land the plane as gently as they can.

How many crash sites has he seen where the pilot was attempting to hit a concrete building?

[Sweet Pea]

48. Exactly

Bob Hoover's famous quote:

"If you're faced with a forced landing, fly the thing as far into the crash as possible"

[balantz]

49. I wonder what those people were doing collecting pieces of debris

at a crime scene?

And why haven't more videos been released. I have a hard time accepting that there aren't more.

[SDuderstadt]

53. Let me make sure I get this straight...

you find it suspicious that investigators, rescue personnel, first responders, etc. are collecting the debris???? Oy.

[balantz]

54. I always thought crime scenes were generally left alone

to make sure an investigation into every detail could be thoroughly mapped out.

Saving people and moving wreckage for that purpose is one thing.

Picking up small debris scattered on the lawn is another.

[SDuderstadt]

55. There are a couple of great inventions....

they're called a camera and evidence markers.

[vincent_vega_lives]

56. Since when

Does "conclusive evidence" of anything reside solely on the interwebs?