Are you a member of the lunatic fringe?

[nebula]

....that buys into the official fairy tale?

[hack89]

1. What did the similiar polls on angels and intelligent design have to say? nt

[seemslikeadream]

2. I guess by asking that question it means you don't believe in angels?

[HamdenRice]

4. Would you like to know how illogical your point is?

By posting that barebones rebuttal, all you are implying is that 70% of the population are stupid.

But if you polled people and asked them if the world is round, more that 70% would say yes. Does that mean the world is flat?

If you asked them whether the Atlantic Ocean was to the east of the continental United States, over 70% would say yes. Does that mean it's actually the Pacific that is to the east of the continental United States?

Just because 70% believe in something that may be mythological doesn't mean that everything that 70% believe is wrong.

Can you understand the logical fallacy you've made? (Btw, please name the logical fallacy -- that's your homework assignment.) If you can identify the logical fallcy you've made, why not resolve never to use this useless point again?

[jberryhill]

6. 50% of all people are below average intelligence

Is that news?

[HamdenRice]

7. You're making the same logical error.

If I went into a home for the mildly learning disabled -- let's say Downe's syndrome and autistic patients with IQs around 60-70 and education up to 5th grade -- and asked if the world was round, and 70% of them said yes, would that prove that the world isn't round?

No.

Do you see, and can you identify, the logical error that is being made in your post and hack's post?

[nebula]

13. Logical fallacy is hack's specialty

[hack89]

10. You certainly have the prissy, schoolmarm shtick down pat

but you are right - I should have amplified my answer. What gets my ire about the OP is just how meaningless internet polls are - they have no place in a rational discussion. A self selecting group with internet access that happens to be on that particular site (not to mention internet appeals to "DU" a poll.) - how could any result from such a poll give you any meaningful insight into what people really believe? If I was seeking the "truth" I wouldn't expect to find it there.

Nebula seems to think that two internet polls from 2006 have some significance - do you?

[HamdenRice]

15. Yes

The are not statistically sound, but they give a rough approximation in terms of orders of magnitude what people think.

The OCTers constantly suggest that only a few nut cases believe that the Bush administration either knowingly ignored warnings (LIHOP) or were complicit (MIHOP).

But both internet polls and statistically sound polls show that significant minorities and in New York perhaps a majority believe that the official story is not the real story.

[balantz]

16. That's interesting.

And in New York there is possibly a majority who lean that way.

[hack89]

20. But the flip side is that does not mean that the 911 truth movement

has the answer. Certainly some of the more esoteric theories that defy basic science are still wrong. It certainly argues for another investigation - something I would support.

There are many truthers who have a binary view of 911 - there are only two choices. Not only that, they look at the OCT as a monolithic whole - if any aspect is wrong or suspect than the entire story is wrong. Why can't there be a third answer? Why can't the elements of the OCT and elements of the "truth" be wrong (or right)? I have always said that if the truth movement would simply say that the CIA duped a bunch of patsies to fly the planes into the WTC or Pentagon I would not be here - it is the most likely MIHOP theory and one I would have a hard time arguing against. Yet folks like Nebula would have me believe that because New Yorkers question 911 then some how Cd or no planes is somehow validated. I reject that "logic".

[Diane_nyc]

30. Binary views ....

hack89 wrote:

20. But the flip side is that does not mean that the 911 truth movement

has the answer. Certainly some of the more esoteric theories that defy basic science are still wrong. It certainly argues for another investigation - something I would support.

What do you think "the 9/11 Truth movement" is? What is your definition?

The 9/11 Truth movement is the movement of people calling for a new investigation of 9/11. It is not about any specific theory. There is lots of disagreement within the 9/11 Truth movement about what scenarios are likely. Unfortunately, a lot of people in the 9/11 Truth movement do embrace scientifically unsound claims. But those claims don't define the movement.

There are many truthers who have a binary view of 911 - there are only two choices. Not only that, they look at the OCT as a monolithic whole - if any aspect is wrong or suspect than the entire story is wrong.

I don't think most people in the 9/11 Truth movement have such a binary view, and of course such a binary view would be absurd. For example, the official story says that the sky was blue. Does this prove that the sky was really orange?

I have always said that if the truth movement would simply say that the CIA duped a bunch of patsies to fly the planes into the WTC or Pentagon I would not be here - it is the most likely MIHOP theory and one I would have a hard time arguing against. Yet folks like Nebula would have me believe that because New Yorkers question 911 then some how Cd or no planes is somehow validated.

Is Nebula or anyone else actually claiming the latter? I don't think so. Nebula, correct me if I'm wrong, but it seems to me that the sole point in bringing up poll numbers is to point out that questioning the official story of 9/11 should not be considered "fringe." Of course this does not, in and of itself, prove that any specific alternative theory is correct. The point is that alternative theories about 9/11 should not be dismissed as beyond the pale of respectable discourse.

[nebula]

18. Wrong again

A New York Times/CBS News poll, conducted with polling firm Angus-Reid (983 US citizens randomly contacted):

Question:

"When it comes to what they knew prior to September 11th, 2001, about possible terrorist attacks against the United States, do you think members of the Bush Administration are telling the truth, are mostly telling the truth but hiding something, or are they mostly lying?"

Results:

16% said telling the truth,
53% said they are hiding something,
28% said they are mostly lying,
3% not sure...

...so over 80% total said they were hiding something or mostly lying..results that are pretty similar to the CNN internet polls.

This isn't too surprising given the potential for huge sample sizes with internet polls. As any polling firm will tell you, the larger the sample size the more accurate the result. Much larger than you can possibly get with the time and expense involved with traditional telephone polling, for example. And in many cases just as random.

[balantz]

19. Now that's REAL interesting!

Some lunatic "fringe" there! Look who is in the minority.

:rofl:

[hack89]

21. So what truther theory does this prove?

CD? nukes? no planes? Judy Woods space ray? Tell me what means.

You see the problem here?

[balantz]

23. It proves that something is rotten in Denmark

because something stinks so bad there is an obvious odor smelled by a MAJORITY.

Hence, investigation into the available "facts".

[hack89]

24. i have no problem with an investigation

don't see it happening but I would love to see one - if nothing else to see the truth movement tie it self in knots when MIHOP is not proven.

[nebula]

5. Bush believes in angels and intelligent design

...and you take his word about 9/11?

[hack89]

11. I don't believe a word he says

but unfortunately for you, you have not established yourself as an alternate voice of reason. Perhaps the truth lies in a third direction?

[nebula]

12. So says the voice of the lunatic fringe

[seemslikeadream]

3. Thanks

[Sweet Pea]

8. There is a direct relationship...

I am sure, between people who post internet polls and people who cover their cars with bumper stickers.

Both have absolutely no idea how silly they look.

[balantz]

9. Proud and happy to be a member.

And I don't have to hold ANY "belief" to be a member.

To believe that alternative theories are credible is to have an open mind.

[SDuderstadt]

14. Having an open mind also means...

looking for evidence and not believing things on faith. If the "truth movement" could actually develop credible evidence of its goofy theories maybe people would sit up and take notice. Tje best quote I ever heard about open-mindedness was something to the effect, "One should always be open-minded, but you don't have to be so open-minded your brains fall out".

[nebula]

25. LOL

You brownshirts are anything but open to alternative ideas.

You swallow the official story like it was the word of God himself.

[SDuderstadt]

26. Truther "logic"

Demanding evidence proves you're not "open-minded"

[vincent_vega_lives]

17. Gee

I wonder if this poll was truthed?

[Donkey_Punch_Dubya]

22. Do you believe the moon landings were faked?

I've seen internet polls where 25% thought they were. That is for something that didn't need a coverup to prevent the public of knowing about essentially goverment murdering 1000s of innocent civilians, it is something that happened long enough ago (35+ years) and would require the complicity of thousands of people in NASA and other agencies, but yet there has never been a single deathbed confession about it by one of the complicit. Given all that, the raw probability of the moon landings being faked is much less than what the 911 truthers allege happened only 7 years ago.

But yet 1 in 7, even up to 1 in 4 people believe that ridiculous conspiracy theory that Area 51 was the real moon stage and we just couldn't pull off getting to the moon, despite using a huge percent of the federal budget to do so for 10 years. And there is no real orgasized advocacy of the moon landings being fake like there is for Loose Change and the 911 conspiracies.

Finally, the poll doesn't ask if the government planned 911 and missiles hit the pentagon, and no real hijackers existed, etc. It just asks if something is being hidden from us, something that could be as relatively small as "The Bush Administration was threatened on September 5th with a massive attack if we didn't remove all troops from the middle east immediately and they have covered that up".

So I think you can see why internet polls like this don't mean a whole lot.

[Bassman66]

27. The moon landing have nothing to do with 9/11

Although I see why you want to make it the same issue, same way 'no planes' is used to smear everyone with questions about 9/11, 'we're all crazy' as evidenced in a recent thread in this forum.

For the record, I'm an Apollo nut. But not in the way you would like.

[nebula]

29. What does it have to do with 9/11?

how could 70-80% even be compared to 1 in 7??

What a bizarre comparison.

[Diane_nyc]

31. Sampling errors, maybe?

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=125&topic_id=207321&mesg_id=207390">Donkey_Punch_Dubya wrote: "Do you believe the moon landings were faked? I've seen internet polls where 25% thought they were."

On what kinds of websites did you see these Internet polls, and what was the sample size?

Not all "Internet polls" are created equal. They vary quite a bit in both the size and the representativeness of their audiences.

Perhaps it's true that as many as 1 in 7, or even 1 in 4, people would believe that the moon landings were a hoax, but I find it very hard to believe that the "moon hoax" claim would have that many adherents.

[wildbilln864]

28. proudly yes!

it beaats the authoritarian majority which is the OCTers IMO.