A Question About The Punchout Hole At The Pentagon:

[Ghost in the Machine]

What made it? I've read speculation about it being the nose of the plame, and I've also read speculation about it being the lower half of the fuselage.

Why can't anyone say for sure? Wouldn't you think that something pretty solid punched that hole out? Where is it? Did it turn to dust or tiny pieces after it exited the hole?

What made this hole, and where is it?

[KJF]

1. You might find something here:

http://frustratingfraud.blogspot.com/search/label/punch-out%20hole

Short answer: nobody knows, explanations are contradictory.

[Ghost in the Machine]

2. Thanks for the link...

I had actually found that site while searching Google for info, but didn't know how reliable the site was...

From your link:

Here is the earliest photo Pickering could locate of the hole, before any marking were spray-painted and before the debris inside was pulled forward. Note the ground is strewn with scattered bricks and flooded with water from firefighting efforts. <2> Compare this with with the damage to ring B's wall across from it , separated only by fifty feet of air; not a brick removed. <3>

That's why I wondered what happened to whatever made the hole.... there's nothing there but a small pile of debris. You'd assume that something solid enough to penetrate 3 rings, and leave a hole like that, would be found, somewhere...

[Blocked]

3. The official story keeps changing.

1st it was:

Q: "That seems to indicate that it came to rest in ring C, the nose cone."

Evey: "The plane actually penetrated through the ... E ring, D ring, C ring."
"The nose of the plane just barely broke through the inside of the C ring, so it was extending into A-E Drive a little bit. So that's the extent of penetration of the aircraft." -DoD News Briefing on Pentagon Renovation (9/15/01)

http://www.defenselink.mil/news/Sep2001/t09152001_t915evey.html

2nd it was:

"On the inside wall of the second ring of the Pentagon, a nearly circular hole, about 12-feet wide, allows light to pour into the building from an internal service alley. An aircraft engine punched the hole out on its last flight after being broken loose from its moorings on the plane. The result became a huge vent for the subsequent explosion and fire." -MDW (9/26/01)

http://www.mdw.army.mil/news/Commentary-Remembering_the_honored_dead.html

3rd it was:

Hole Truth: Flight 77's landing gear punched a 12-ft. hole into the Pentagon's Ring C.

http://www.popularmechanics.com/technology/military_law/1227842.html?page=6

Now it is, get this:

[Ghost in the Machine]

4. Amazing, huh? Welcome to DU, Blocked

Wonder if we'll ever get a straight answer about any of the events of 9-11?

[jberryhill]

5. If I fire a shotgun into plywood

what makes the hole?

[Blocked]

6. How far was the shotgun from the plywood?

[Ghost in the Machine]

7. Well, if it was a pumpkin ball (rifled slug) it would be that...

or, if it was pellets packed behind a wad, and you were close enough, the WAD would make the (single) hole. From a greater distance, the wad would fall away, as it is designed to do, and the pellets would make a lot of small holes.

We're looking at one large hole, presumably made by a large, fast-moving, solid object...

[jberryhill]

8. You've seen the finite element analysis model of this, yes?

No, I personally don't think a single solid object hit the rear wall of that ring after somehow navigating a diagonal path through all of those reinforced columns.

[Ghost in the Machine]

9. I find it interesting that there's no missing columns in the C Ring...

only damaged ones...

[jberryhill]

10. What I can't figure out is....

...the argument that says the remains of a disintegrating airplane couldn't breach that wall, but an exploding missile could.

I'm no rocket surgeon, but I thought the stuff that blows up is in the front of a missile.

[biermeister]

11. a bunker buster type weapon would penetrate first

then explode. Where is the damage caused by the two engines? I expected to see damage to the right and left

[jberryhill]

12. So this one penetrated, and then didn't explode?

The hardened tip of a bunker buster missile zig-zagged around the reinforced concrete columns, pierced the rear wall to make the hole, and then didn't blow up?

Or was this a dual-exploding bunker buster that made the fireball on the way in, and then kept going?

If it penetrates first and then explodes, can you show on a diagram of some kind where the penetrating took place, and then where the exploding took place? Because as Ghost In The Machine points out, going from one side to the other, the number of broken vs. damaged colums decreases. If you are saying that a smaller cross-sectional aircraft/missile primarily penetrated from the point of impact to a point of explosion deeper in, then why does the swath of damage decrease along that line?

That's the point I don't understand about the argument: "The damage doesn't conform to what I think an airplane impact should have looked like, therefore it was a missile." The next logical step is to explain all of the data in terms of a missile impact.

If there was a small *exterior* hole, and then a larger *interior* hole, then I'd be inclined to agree that the overall damage profile conformed to my non-expert impression of what a bunker buster would do.

So, I must be dense. Explain to me how a bunker buster missile accounts for all of the damage to the Pentagon at one time.

[biermeister]

14. I was just pointing out that some missles don't explode

on impact but are designed to penetrate and then explode. I've seen footage that shows them traveling through hardened walls and then detonating. I can't explain the zig-zag damage in the diagram but I wasn't addressing that point.

Do we know where the engines were located in the diagram?

[Tobias]

13. The hole was made by the shock wave. nt.

[Ghost in the Machine]

15. A shock wave would knock the whole wall down, not make a nice, neat hole. n/t

[Tobias]

16. Wrong. There was a door at this place before the attack. n/t

[Ghost in the Machine]

17. Link? n/t

[nebula]

18. The plane fairy took it away?

:shrug:

[Ghost in the Machine]

19. AH HA!! I think you've nailed the case down! n/t