The 9/11 Truth industry....the conspiracy of the "conspiracy"

[Seen the light]

Saw a great post here about the 9/11 Truth industry, how people like Alex Jones and his ilk have a vested interest in continuing to stir the pot with their idiotic theories in order to make money.

I realized how true that was. The makers of Loose Change that kept making new edits and rereleases have a vested interest in continuing to prey upon the paranoid crazy minds out there.

That's the only true conspiracy. This is all about money. They've found a way to make money off of this crap.

[Diane_nyc]

1. I doubt that the makers of "Loose Change" are making very much money ....

Do you have any evidence as to how much money the makers of "Loose Change" have been making?

I would doubt that they are making very much, given that many people can watch their video for free online.

Alex Jones, on the other hand, is another story. He's got a massive website with frequent updates, plus a radio show, etc., covering many different issues from a right wing populist point of view, not just 9/11. And he's got quite a few products to sell to that audience, plus ads on his website.

I seriously doubt that anyone else in the 9/11 Truth movement is making anywhere nearly as much money from it as Alex Jones.

[noise]

2. It's also about authoritarian cheerleaders

who claim they "can't stand Bush" but draw the line at questioning Bush in relation to 9/11. IMO, Bush acted in bad faith. Bad faith means that incompetence, bureaucratic failures and risk aversion are BS rationalizations (IMO the bad faith extended to the intelligence community. For example, George Tenet).

Alex Jones is a radio host. George Bush is the President. IMO, people should expect more of the President.

[Bassman66]

4. I didn't see incompetence

in the Florida classroom.
I don't know what it was, but it wasn't incompetence.
The most likely explanation was foreknowledge, why else would Bush ask no questions, Card expect no response and the SS know they were safe?
Bush knew.

who claim they "can't stand Bush" but draw the line at questioning Bush in relation to 9/11.

There are an amazing number of "liberals" here who take that position, they hate Bush but they don't want answers about 9/11.

[SDuderstadt]

20. Or, we "liberals" who take that position realize that there are...

other equally valid explanations other than "Bush knew". When I watch the expression on Bush's face when Card informs him of the attack, to me it says, "Oh, shit. What am I supposed tp do now?'. Your supposition that this is some sort of smoking gun is truly comical.

[jberryhill]

3. Alex Jones will latch onto anything

I doubt most strictly 9/11 Truthers are making piles of dough.

Guys like Fetzer, Jones, and some others are virtual department stores of nutty stuff. 9/11 is just another product line for them.

[Bassman66]

6. Alex Jones?

What's his worst example of nutty stuff?

[Bolo Boffin]

7. What's Alex Jones' worst example of nutty stuff?

:wow:

http://alexjonesexposed.blogspot.com/

The guy is a Sam's Club economy-sized cocktail blend of nutty stuff.

[Bassman66]

8. Ah, the Alex Jones holocaust denier smear

because he knows someone and has talked to someone who believes this it invalidates everything about 9/11.

Right.

What about people who support the official 9/11 story but believe in God? Does their belief invalidate their 9/11 belief?

I should have been more concise, I didn't expect the invalidation by association argument. Can you give me an example of Alex Jone's worst example of 9/11 nutty stuff.

[Bolo Boffin]

9. Prisonplanet and other sites associated with Alex Jones are not to be linked to here.

That's because their hate has been sufficiently documented by the moderators and administrators here.

If you understand and support the purpose of DU, that should be enough for you to recognize what a mental case Alex Jones is.

[Bassman66]

10. But what is Alex Jone's nuttiest 9/11 theory?

Just asking.

I'm sure Alex Jones has said he's not anti-semtic, I'm sure he's been accused of being pro-semite because he's never claimed Israel were involved in 9/11. I don't see anyhow one set of beliefs whatever they are affect another set of beliefs (my God belief example for instance). What's he said about 9/11?

The purpose of DU? Is that not to encourage open debate about the problems of the day, to kick stuff around by rigorous argument until the solution is left there shining bright for all to see, to stand up for liberal views including the right to free speech, to stand up for the little man against the giants, to pursue the truth, only the truth and nothing but the truth, to defend the truth by means of sound argument and reasoning?

Or something else?

[Diane_nyc]

15. Can you provide links to relevant documentation by the DU admins and mods?

If so, that would be helpful.

[Bolo Boffin]

16. That would probably be in the moderator-only forum.

Writing to them would probably be your only recourse.

[Diane_nyc]

17. How do you happen to know that they've documented it, then?

I had assumed that your use of the word "documented" meant that they had documented it publicly somewhere. A simple assertion that one has researched something, without revealing one's sources, does not constitute documentation.

My point here is not to defend Alex Jones (see my other posts in this thread), but I would indeed be interested in more documentation if publicly available.

[Bolo Boffin]

18. Why don't you ask someone who has the answers to your questions?

I have no knowledge of such documentation. I am not a moderator here. I am not an administrator here. Why do you keep asking me about things I have no access to?

"Documented" is something they would have to have, because DU rotates their moderators. They have to have access to something. For all I know, someone checks out the website, sees enough to satisfy their suspicions, and puts it on a list accessible to all moderators. They might have discussions about it. They might have 50 cross-checked, laminated pages ready to distribute.

I DON'T KNOW. ASK SOMEONE WHO DOES.

[Diane_nyc]

21. Seeming contradiction resolved, I guess. Thanks.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=125&topic_id=210646&mesg_id=210736">boloboffin wrote here:

9. Prisonplanet and other sites associated with Alex Jones are not to be linked to here.

Edited on Wed Jun-18-08 06:44 AM by boloboffin
That's because their hate has been sufficiently documented by the moderators and administrators here.

You stated the above as a known and established fact, without the slightest hint of uncertainty, and without any qualification such as "I vaguely recall reading somewhere around here that ...."

But then, http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=125&topic_id=210646&mesg_id=210757">you wrote here:

16. That would probably be in the moderator-only forum.

Writing to them would probably be your only recourse.

I responded by asking, "How do you happen to know that they've documented it, then?"

Note that, at this point, I wasn't asking you for the documentation itself, or for any further help in obtaining it. I just asked you how you knew that the documentation existed.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=125&topic_id=210646&mesg_id=210761">You replied here:

18. Why don't you ask someone who has the answers to your questions?

I have no knowledge of such documentation. I am not a moderator here. I am not an administrator here.

Then why did you write something which implied that you did have knowledge of at least the documentations' existence?

You then wrote:

Why do you keep asking me about things I have no access to?

Why? Because I was startled and confused by the seeming contradiction between the first two of the above-quoted posts of yours (the first post implying a claim to know about the documentation, but then the second post seeming to deny such knowledge). And I tend to respond to such confusion by asking for clarification. Anyhow, you wrote, further:

"Documented" is something they would have to have, because DU rotates their moderators. They have to have access to something.

Thanks for the explanation of how you surmised that they have documentation. I wouldn't be as certain as you seem to be about the conclusion you've drawn, but, whatever. Not important, I guess.

Anyhow, I do agree with you, as I've stated in other recent posts to other people, that Alex Jones is at least a borderline hatemonger.

[Diane_nyc]

14. The problem with Alex Jones and Jew-haters (and other bigotry)

The problem is not simply that Alex Jones "knows somebody who knows somebody" who is a Holocaust Revisionist.

The problem is that Alex Jones has uncritically accepted many of the ideas of various hardcore Jew-haters (not just Holocaust Revisionists). An example is the claims about the Federal Reserve system I referred to in http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=125&topic_id=210646&mesg_id=210751">this post here. Alex Jones removes the explicitly anti-Jewish content, but many of the Federal Reserve claims themselves are derived from the writings of Eustace Mullins, who was a hardcore Jew-hater. (For more about Eustace Mullins, see various pages linked in my blog post http://activistnyc.wordpress.com/2007/12/23/please-do-not-trust-eustace-mullins-as-an-authority-on-the-federal-reserve-system/">Please do NOT trust Eustace Mullins as an authority on the Federal Reserve System!.) For documentation of assorted ideas from Jew-hating sources that Alex Jones has uncritically endorsed, see http://alexjonesexposed.blogspot.com/">the "Alex Jones Exposed" blog.

Of course, the mere fact that a Jew-hater happens to believe a particular idea does not, in itself, prove that that particular idea is wrong. The problem is that Alex Jones has a pattern of uncritically accepting many unfounded ideas from Jew-hating sources, just changing the alleged culprits from "Jews" to "Illuminati" or whatever.

Furthermore, there's plenty of other, more overtly bigoted stuff on Alex Jones's sites, e.g. plenty of anti-gay stuff on Prison Planet, as documented in http://alexjonesexposed.blogspot.com/2007/07/how-alex-jones-is-conning-liberals.html">one of the earlier posts on the "Alex Jones Exposed" blog.

[Diane_nyc]

11. Refutation of claims by Alex Jones et al about the Federal Reserve

As an example (and refutation) of some of the assorted nonsense spread by Alex Jones and other right wing populists on a topic other than 9/11:

http://www.geocities.com/CapitolHill/Embassy/1154/flaherty.html">Debunking the Federal Reserve Conspiracy Theories by Edward Flaherty, Ph.D. Department of Economics, College of Charleston, S.C.

Note that by rejecting a particular set of claims about the Federal Reserve, I don't mean to imply that everything about the Federal Reserve system is A-OK. I just mean to reject one particular set of claims. Certainly there can be other, more legitimate criticism of the Federal Reserve System.

[Bassman66]

12. I didn't see Alex Jones name in that linked page. nt

[Diane_nyc]

13. The claims were not originated by Alex Jones, who just recycles them. nt

[Bassman66]

19. Any claim in particular?

[Diane_nyc]

22. One particular claim by Alex Jones, as discussed on the "Alex Jones Exposed" blog:

http://alexjonesexposed.blogspot.com/2008/04/alex-jones-anti-jewish-conspiracy.html">Alex Jones, an anti-Jewish conspiracy theory, and pseudo-history, Wednesday, April 23, 2008

[mhatrw]

5. Exactly! These guys must be making at least 0.00001% of what

our war and security state profiteers are making on the myth of 9/11!

[seemslikeadream]

23. It's all about money alright

[seemslikeadream]

24. Do you have ANY idea how much Halliburton Blackwater and the rest of those fucking bastards

have made since 9/11?



Don't give me this crap, it's bullshit! You are going after the wrong people. Now why would that be?

[noise]

25. Speaking of profiting off of tragedy

Kean has also been criticized for using his role as the chairman of the 9/11 Commission in order to make profit, such as his book, Without Precedent. Some also argue that his endorsement of the television movie, The Path to 9/11, was misguided. The film features some scenes which are known to be false, according to those involved and the official 9/11 Commission Report. Kean was also a paid consultant to the film and was credited as an executive producer.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thomas_Kean">Link

It's funny how we were able to read their bullshit book as fast as they could get it in the bookstores but they made sure that evidence used to construct the 9/11 report was classified until January 2009.

I read Shenon's book and came away with the impression that Kean and Hamilton were more or less full of shit.