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Woody Box Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-05-04 08:38 AM
Original message
Flight 11 survived the North Tower crash
...therefore it cannot have been the plane that hit the tower.


Flight 11 was spotted on the radar screens at 8:48 by New York ARTCC controllers:

At 8:48, while the controller was still trying to locate American 11, a New York Center manager provided the following report on a Command Center teleconference about American 11:

Manager, New York Center: Okay. This is New York Center. We’re watching the airplane. I also had conversation with American Airlines, and they ’ve told us that they believe that one of their stewardesses was stabbed and that there are people in the cockpit that have control of the aircraft, and that ’s all the information they have right now. 124

The New York Center controller and manager were unaware that American 11 had already crashed.
9/11 report, p.21


Flight 11 was reported at 9:21 by Washington ARTCC controllers as "heading towards Washington":

Instead, the NEADS air defenders heard renewed reports about a plane that no longer existed: American 11.
At 9:21, NEADS received a report from the FAA:
FAA: Military,Boston Center.I just had a report that American 11 is still in the air, and it ’s on its way towards —heading towards Washington.
NEADS: Okay.American 11 is still in the air?
FAA: Yes.
NEADS: On its way towards Washington?
FAA: That was another — it was evidently another aircraft that hit the tower. That ’s the latest report we have.
NEADS: Okay.
FAA: I ’m going to try to confirm an ID for you,but I would assume
he ’s somewhere over,uh,either New Jersey or somewhere further south.
NEADS: Okay. So American 11 isn ’t the hijack at all then,right?
FAA: No,he is a hijack.
NEADS: He —American 11 is a hijack?
FAA: Yes.
NEADS: And he ’s heading into Washington?
FAA: Yes. This could be a third aircraft.148

The mention of a “third aircraft ”was not a reference to American 77.There was confusion at that moment in the FAA.Two planes had struck the World Trade Center, and Boston Center had heard from FAA headquarters in Washington that American 11 was still airborne. We have been unable to identify the
source of this mistaken FAA information.
9/11 report, p.26


At 9:24, Langley fighters were ordered to intercept the southbound Flight 11 in the Baltimore area:

The NEADS technician who took this call from the FAA immediately passed the word to the mission crew commander, who reported to the NEADS battle commander:

Mission Crew Commander, NEADS: Okay, uh, American Airlines is still airborne. Eleven, the first guy, he's heading towards Washington. Okay? I think we need to scramble Langley right now. And I'm gonna take the fighters from Otis, try to chase this guy down if I can find him.149

After consulting with NEADS command, the crew commander issued the order at 9:23:"Okay . . . scramble Langley. Head them towards the Washington area.. . . if they're there then we'll run on them.. . .These guys are smart." That order was processed and transmitted to Langley Air Force Base at 9:24. Radar data show the Langley fighters airborne at 9:30. NEADS decided to keep the Otis fighters over New York. The heading of the Langley fighters was adjusted to send them to the Baltimore area. The mission crew commander explained to us that the purpose was to position the Langley fighters between the reported southbound American 11 and the nation's capital.150



The Air National Guard was informed by the FAA that Flight 11 was still airborne after the North Tower crash:

03:54:35 LT COLONEL DAWNE DESKINS, AIR NATIONAL GUARD

They told us that they showed the American Airlines Flight 11 was still airborne. So now, we're looking at this, well if, if an aircraft hit the World Trade Center, who was that?
http://www.billstclair.com/911timeline/2002/abcnews091102.html


General Myers knew of a hijacked plane, coming from the New York area and heading to Washington:

General Richard Myers, vice-chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, said that before the crash into the Pentagon, military officials had been notified that another hijacked plane had been heading from the New York area to Washington.http://www.guardian.co.uk/wtccrash/story/0%2C1300%2C550486%2C00.html

So who wants to deny that Flight 11 was still airborne after the North Tower crash?










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Warpy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-05-04 08:55 AM
Response to Original message
1. You forget the confusion that day
and the fact that the transponder was turned off. They saw a radar echo that could have been one of several possibilities. They had no way of identifying it as Flight 11 without that transponder.

Besides, where are all the passengers and crew?

Spare me.
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Woody Box Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-05-04 09:57 AM
Response to Reply #1
5. No, I didn't forget

The radar blip was tracked by different air controllers since the transponder was off. They knew very well that the unidentified blip was AA BECAUSE there was no accompanying data tag. There were no "several possibilities". Also, at 9:48, there was no big confusion yet. This was just beginning.

The passengers?

http://inn.globalfreepress.com/modules/news/article.php?storyid=323



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TrogL Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-07-04 11:15 PM
Response to Reply #5
22. that the unidentified blip was AA BECAUSE there was no accompanying data t
Congratulations. You just proved a negative.
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Woody Box Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-08-04 02:09 AM
Response to Reply #22
23. Think big

Thanks for the congratulations, but I didn't prove a negative.

You don't need a data tag to identify an AA airplane if a colleague from another ARTCC has told you that the "naked" radar blip is a hijacked AA plane.

That's what happened.

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stickdog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-05-04 02:32 PM
Response to Reply #1
15. Please explain your theory further. "Confusion" doesn't cut it.
Either a plane was heading from NY to DC identifying itself as Flight 11 or a plane with its transponder off basically picked up where Flight 11 left off.

Right?

Either way, what exactly was this mystery plane that resulted in fighters being placed out of position to stop Flight 77? And why didn't one of the fighters simply intercept it? Why fuck with some sort of lame-ass "prevent defense" outside of DC proper? Does that make any military sense AT ALL?

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getoffmytrain Donating Member (575 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-05-04 09:04 AM
Response to Original message
2. Yawn......
Edited on Tue Oct-05-04 09:06 AM by getoffmytrain
All the passengers and crew must be CIA agents, right?
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Woody Box Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-05-04 10:01 AM
Response to Reply #2
6. bump
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DinahMoeHum Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-05-04 09:11 AM
Response to Original message
3. Oh jeez, just more conspiracy theory bullshit. . .
(Yawn)
:evilfrown:
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Woody Box Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-05-04 10:04 AM
Response to Reply #3
7. Great answer


And now explain me why air controllers forwarded the plane's position to the military without any clue where it actually was.


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tngledwebb Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-05-04 09:26 AM
Response to Original message
4. Good work.
The holes in the Official Story are big enough to fly a Boeing thru. One possibility is FAA complicity with plenty of false flags to keep the story as incomprehensible as possible. But the no real planes at all theory makes more and more sense.
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Woody Box Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-05-04 10:06 AM
Response to Reply #4
8. Another possibility
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John Doe II Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-05-04 10:45 AM
Response to Original message
9. Good work
Well researched!
When the WTC was hit for the first time it took quite a while till it was figured out which airplane actually hit the tower (thi although there was only one transponder switched off at that time. So no confusion. Business as usual till then). So I think it's absolutely understandable to analyse this. So I don't understand the first reactions around here.
Moreover:
Have a look at the second hit. Controllers were following the blimp on their screen till it hit the second tower. Yet for hours it wasn't declared which airplane it was. After a while it was said that Flighth 175 was unaccounted for. Later that day that it crashed but it wasn't said where. So it's worth having a closer look, no?

If somebody wants the links. Tell me. I'll post them later.
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LARED Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-05-04 11:05 AM
Response to Original message
10. Can you provide some links to the material (nt/)
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Woody Box Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-05-04 12:32 PM
Response to Reply #10
12. Already provided - 9/11 report + browse this thread (nt)
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seatnineb Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-05-04 12:20 PM
Response to Original message
11. Flight 11 still flying...
Great work again Woody.......

Here is some more interesting stuff written by 2 different members on 2 different forums as the events were unfolding:

To: Diogenesis
american flight number 11 was told it was being diverted to
jfk.....

44 posted on 09/11/2001 6:37:06 AM PDT by missouri4bush
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/520268/posts


Username: Cre
From United States, joined Jun 2000, 159 posts, RR: 0
Reply: 83
Posted Tue Sep 11 2001 15:36:46 UTC+1 and read 30163 times:
NBC saying it was AA11, 1 757 from bos to lax and was hijacked and diverted to jfk?
flightarrivals.com says that flight is still underway?

http://www.airliners.net/discussions/general_aviation/r...

As far as the JFK connection is concerned.....

The 9/11 commission has this to say :
Its(NORAD) latest information was of a possible "hijacked" aircraft taking off out of JFK en-route to Washington D.C
Page 38.


But.....

There is also this:
A quiet tremor rolled through the room, replaced by the buzz of urgent questions into phones. What kind of aircraft hit the building? A small plane? A large plane? Could it be Flight 11?

Boston Center was still tracking a blip believed to be Flight 11.

http://www.mistakesweremade.com/newhousenews012502.html





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Woody Box Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-05-04 12:34 PM
Response to Reply #11
13. Thanks, seaty


you're always a source of genuine information :-)

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Woody Box Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-05-04 12:57 PM
Response to Reply #11
14. Good catch from the freepers forum :-)
We will be reading these threads years from now to relive the experience. And that is a good thing because we should NEVER FORGET!



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LARED Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-05-04 04:37 PM
Response to Original message
16. Mind if I point something out?
you posted this in response the 9/11 report

Flight 11 was spotted on the radar screens at 8:48 by New York ARTCC controllers:

From the 9/11 report

At 8:48, while the controller was still trying to locate American 11, a New York Center manager provided the following report on a Command Center teleconference about American 11:

Manager, New York Center: Okay. This is New York Center. We’re watching the airplane. I also had conversation with American Airlines, and they ’ve told us that they believe that one of their stewardesses was stabbed and that there are people in the cockpit that have control of the aircraft, and that ’s all the information they have right now. 124


No where in the 9/11 report or in the snippet you posted, does it say Flight 11 was spotted on radar at 8:48.
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Woody Box Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-07-04 01:52 PM
Response to Reply #16
19. Sorry

"We're watching the airplane" - what do you think were the controllers looking at? At a plane through the window?

The sentence you refer to was not a quote. It was a paraphrase.

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LARED Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-07-04 06:07 PM
Response to Reply #19
20. Read it carefully
Edited on Thu Oct-07-04 07:02 PM by LARED
Here's the exact quote from the 9/11 report

At 8:48, while the controller was still trying to locate American 11, a New York Center manager provided the following report on a command Center teleconference about American 11:

Manager, New York Center: Okay. This is New York Center.We’re
watching the airplane. I also had conversation with American Airlines,
and they’ve told us that they believe that one of their stewardesses
was stabbed and that there are people in the cockpit that
have control of the aircraft, and that’s all the information they have
right now.124


At 8:48 the controller was trying to locate flight 11. Obviously he did not yet know that flight 11 had hit the WTC and was trying to locate the jet. No where does it say an ATC had the flight on radar at 8:48.

A manager at a command center teleconference stated the information he had. No where does it say the manager was looking for flight 11 on radar. No where does it say the manager saw the flight on radar at 8:48.

The language clearly implies the manager was in a teleconference and did not have the updated information that flight 11 had hit the WTC minutes earlier.

edit for clarity
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MercutioATC Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-07-04 06:20 PM
Response to Reply #20
21. THAT'S the crux of the issue, LARED.
People like to think that every communication happens instantly with complete information. That's simply not the case. Good analysis.
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Woody Box Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-08-04 02:47 AM
Response to Reply #20
24. Sorry again
This is the language: "We ((not I)) are watching ((not searching)) the airplane."

"Watching" means visual perception. I don't think they were looking out of the window (if they were windows in the control room).

Boston ARTCC and Washington ARTCC were watching the radar blip of AA11, too, as I have outlined already.

So we have several consistent reports that Flight 11 survived the North Tower crash. No way to use the language to split hairs.

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LARED Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-08-04 06:39 AM
Response to Reply #24
25. Is english not your first language?
The quote

At 8:48, while the controller was still trying to locate American 11, a New York Center manager provided the following report on a command Center teleconference about American 11:

Manager, New York Center: Okay. This is New York Center.We’re
watching the airplane. I also had conversation with American Airlines,
and they’ve told us that they believe that one of their stewardesses
was stabbed and that there are people in the cockpit that
have control of the aircraft, and that’s all the information they have
right now.124


I believe it is clear that the manager was not in the same area as the ATC. It is not realistic to believe that a teleconference was going on in the same room as the ATC stations. Only a few minutes had passed since flight 11 crashed into the WTC. The only reason the manager stated we're watching flight 11 is that he was unaware that it had crashed. In fact the ATC was unaware it had crashed because he was looking for it. No one was watching it on any radar screen at 8:48.

In order to beleive your version. First the teleconference was held right next to the ATC station and someone is lying. The ATC is looking while the manager is watching.

Your position is not consistent. (imagine that!!!) Fact facts, Woody Box, this portion of the 9/11 report does not state anyone was watching flight 11 at 8:48.

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Woody Box Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-08-04 07:41 AM
Response to Reply #25
26. Sorry again
We're watching the airplane.

This means: I and someone else have visual perception of the airplane.

For a native English speaker, you're seriously lacking semantic accuratesse. (Or is English not your first language - then I'm sorry). Instead you're spreading wild speculations of what was going on in Ronkonkoma.

Concerning the "controller still trying to locate American 11", this is a not a direct quote from a controller or FAA manager. It's a comment of the 9/11 commission which is already famous for its sloppy investigation methods. So it's much less valuable than McCormick's statement.

"We're watching the airplane" is, however, consistent with the other messages from Boston Center and Washington Center. So before impudently telling me that my position is not consistent, look in the mirror, please.



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LARED Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-08-04 08:45 AM
Response to Reply #26
27. No problem Woody Box
As stated many times in the past. Life is about choices. If you want to believe someone saw flight 11 on radar at 8:48, Enjoy.

Just let me point out the ignoring the fact that the manager and the ATC were not together at 8:48 is what I call willful ignorance.
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k-robjoe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-08-04 10:08 AM
Response to Reply #27
28. This is pretty complicated
Did Woody give the impression that manager and the ATC were together ? I didn´t get that.

And what does the manager mean when he says : "We're watching the airplane."? If he´s not saying that they are watching ( what they believe to be ) Flight 11 I mean...
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LARED Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-08-04 11:08 AM
Response to Reply #28
30. I think the problem is Woody is confused
From the initial post by Woody

Flight 11 was spotted on the radar screens at 8:48 by New York ARTCC controllers:

At 8:48, while the controller was still trying to locate American 11, a New York Center manager provided the following report on a Command Center teleconference about American 11:

Manager, New York Center: Okay. This is New York Center. We’re watching the airplane. I also had conversation with American Airlines, and they ’ve told us that they believe that one of their stewardesses was stabbed and that there are people in the cockpit that have control of the aircraft, and that ’s all the information they have right now. 124


-------

It is clearly stated that the Controller is looking for flight 11 at 8:48. He's is looking because the plane is not longer on radar as it is now imbedded in the WTC in little pieces.

At the same time a manager at a teleconference stated that "we're watching the airplane." Hence the teleconference cannot be taking place at the ATC station otherwise he would know the plane is no longer on radar. The manager went to a different location between the time they were watching flight 11 on radar and the time it crashed. Only a few minutes difference. There is no reason to believe the "we're" used by the manager infers the ATC's knowledge at exactly 8:48. It cannot be that because the ATC was already looking for the missing plane at 8:48.

So by logic (remember that outdated notion) the ATC did not see flight 11 on radar at 8:48 as stated by Woody B.

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seatnineb Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-08-04 11:27 AM
Response to Reply #30
33. Sorry to break your heart on this LARED
The manager in question is Mike McCormick......

And he was in the control room with THE ATC's looking at Flight 11.

In the FAA's largest air traffic facility in New York state — a warehouse-like structure on Long Island, an hour east of Manhattan — manager Mike McCormick rushes to the banks of radar screens where controllers are trying to track Flight 11.
http://www.usatoday.com/travel/news/2002/2002-08-12-clear-skies.htm


It is the same McCormick who says....
"This is New York Center.We’re watching the airplane. I also had conversation with American Airlines,and they’ve told us that they believe that one of their stewardesseswas stabbed and that there are people in the cockpit thathave control of the aircraft, and that’s all the information they have right now."124


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LARED Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-08-04 11:35 AM
Response to Reply #33
34. Thanks for the link. It helps clear things up nicely
Edited on Fri Oct-08-04 11:35 AM by LARED
From your link

8:30 a.m.: 3,786 planes


"Wow, look at that!"

In the FAA's largest air traffic facility in New York state — a warehouse-like structure on Long Island, an hour east of Manhattan — manager Mike McCormick rushes to the banks of radar screens where controllers are trying to track Flight 11.

The former Marine presses his cordless phone to one ear as he talks to officials at other facilities in the New York area. But the other ear is doing most of the listening — to the radio reports of pilots who are watching the jet's progress.

Over New York, Flight 11 has begun to descend. Not into JFK or LaGuardia or Newark International Airport but into the city itself.

It must have electrical problems, he thinks. That's probably why the transponder is off. McCormick calls another air traffic center that hands off flights to New York's three major airports. Flight 11, he warns, might try an emergency landing.

In Fort Worth, Gerard Arpey, American Airline's Executive vice president for operations, hears about the Ong call and the strange transmissions from Flight 11. In his 20 years with American, Arpey, 43, has grown used to stories about misbehaving passengers — the drunks and disorderlies that airlines encounter. But this, he thinks, this seems more than that. This sounds real.

He tries to reach his boss, CEO Don Carty, but Carty isn't in yet. Then he heads to the airline's command center, where top operations officials gather only in the event of an emergency. They're all here, Arpey thinks as he walks through the door.


You have established that McCormick was no where near the New York ATC. So he was not with the ATC at 8:48

Thanks for the help.

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seatnineb Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-08-04 11:41 AM
Response to Reply #34
36. Not so fast.....
Whoa!

Disinformation on a grand scale....


LARED.....

You are talkin about Gelard Arpey who is American Airline's Executive vice president...who is based in Fort Worth,Texas....

Try again!

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LARED Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-08-04 11:49 AM
Response to Reply #36
37. My mistake
I stand corrected.

But you still haven't explained how McCormick was at a teleconference and at the ATC station at the same time.

Well?
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Woody Box Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-08-04 12:36 PM
Response to Reply #37
39. LARED lazy-bone
Would you have bothered to check the underlying assumptions of your wild speculations and clicked seaty's USA today-link,
you would have spared us and yourself a lot of time:

The former Marine ((McCormick)) presses his cordless phone to one ear as he talks to officials at other facilities in the New York area. But the other ear is doing most of the listening — to the radio reports of pilots who are watching the jet's progress.

Cordless phone
Talking to other facilities
Teleconference

Got it?








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LARED Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-08-04 01:20 PM
Response to Reply #39
40. You should look up the word teleconference
Damm, it's like shooting fish is a barrel after awhile.

I've alway told my kids the first step to getting out of a hole you've dug for yourself is to stop digging.
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Woody Box Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-08-04 05:45 PM
Response to Reply #40
42. teleconference

I've alway told my kids the first step to getting out of a hole you've dug for yourself is to stop digging.

So why do you give advices to your kids you yourself don't feel committed to?

There are acoustic teleconferences and visual (video) teleconferences.

McCormick was obviously participating in an acoustic teleconference (also called "conference call"). And he was with his controllers in the control room.

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LARED Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-08-04 08:37 PM
Response to Reply #42
43. Cognitive dissonance
In brief, however, the theory makes two critical predictions. First, people will try to strengthen existing beliefs by rejecting contrary information and actively seeking out supportive information. Second, the energy believers put into doing this will increase as the boundaries between believers and others get stronger.

In other words, opposition strengthens belief and the more people believe in something, the harder they'll fight to keep that belief no matter how obvious the increasing absurdity of their beliefs and actions might be to the uninvolved.
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k-robjoe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-10-04 06:02 PM
Response to Reply #43
44. Quote
Quote :

" Mr. MIKE McCORMICK (New York Air Traffic Manager): We tracked that aircraft as it turned southbound and then back northeast-bound, back toward Manhattan. I assumed at that point that that target of that aircraft was, in fact, the World Trade Center.
ORR: Controllers tracked the hijacked jet for 11 agonizing and helpless minutes.
Mr. McCORMICK: For those 11 minutes, I knew, we knew, what was going to happen, and that was difficult.
(CBS, 8/13/02)

''Probably one of the most difficult moments in my life was the 11 minutes from the point I watched that aircraft when we first lost communication to the point that aircraft hit the World Trade Center.
(Boston Globe, 8/13/02)
(Ottawa Citizen, 8/13/03)"
___________________________________

I still find this pretty complicated. Isn´t he here with the ATC´s, watching flight 175, just a few minutes later?
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LARED Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-10-04 06:30 PM
Response to Reply #44
45. I get the feeling
McCormick is talking about flight 175 in the quotes you provided.

Hard to tell without some context around the snippet. Or a link.


Or are you making some other point that I missed?
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k-robjoe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-11-04 08:23 AM
Response to Reply #45
50. Like I said
I find this complicated, but if I get you right, you say that "he was in a teleconference in the Command Center at 8:48."

And then I assume that he was also in the same place two minutes later when this happened : "We tracked that aircraft as it turned southbound and then back northeast-bound, back toward Manhattan. I assumed at that point that that target of that aircraft was, in fact, the World Trade Center."

( And he watched : "Probably one of the most difficult moments in my life was the 11 minutes from the point I watched that aircraft when we first lost communication to the point that aircraft hit the World Trade Center." )

Yes, this is Flight 175.

So he was in the Command Center? And he was with people? And they were tracking the planes? And this would be the same people that he was talking about at 8:48, when he said that "we´re watching the airplane"?

So he´s with people, and they are tracking planes on radar? So what is the big argument? That these guys were not in the right location? That they were not the right people?
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LARED Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-11-04 09:12 AM
Response to Reply #50
51. My only point has been that
these transcripts do not prove (do not even indicate) that flight 11 was being tracked on radar at 8:48 by anyone.

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stickdog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-12-04 05:02 AM
Response to Reply #51
64. Maybe he's talking about Flight 175. But what about Flight 11, then?
"Okay. This is New York Center. We’re watching the airplane."

Exactly what do those words mean to you, Lared?

The time is 8:48.

The context is:

In the FAA's largest air traffic facility in New York state — a warehouse-like structure on Long Island, an hour east of Manhattan — manager Mike McCormick rushes to the banks of radar screens where controllers are trying to track Flight 11.

The former Marine presses his cordless phone to one ear as he talks to officials at other facilities in the New York area. But the other ear is doing most of the listening — to the radio reports of pilots who are watching the jet's progress.


( http://www.usatoday.com/travel/news/2002/2002-08-12-clear-skies.htm )


*****


Where the hell do you think the guy is? Talking into some video camera in some sort of Get Smart Cone of Silence?

First you claim "teleconference" doesn't mean telephone conference. Then you claim "watching the plane" doesn't mean watching the plane. Is English really your first language?


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stickdog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-11-04 10:34 AM
Response to Reply #43
52. Your last few posts have served as a clear illustration of your own
cognitive dissonance. Projecting much?

Do you really think people never use the word "teleconference" as a shorthand for "telephone conference"? Seriously? That's your "argument"?
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LARED Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-11-04 11:26 AM
Response to Reply #52
58. No my argument is that
The manager and the ATC could not have been both watching the radar and have gotten different information.

The text implies the manager was teleconferencing at a different location. Whether he was on the phone or watching a video screen is immaterial.

The idea that he was teleconference on a cordless phone while watching the radar is not reconcilable given that the text states the ATC was looking for flight 11 and the manager thought it was still on radar.
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k-robjoe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-11-04 01:54 PM
Response to Reply #58
62. O.K.
I see what you mean.

Let me explain how I have been seeing it.

"At 8:48, while the controller was still trying to locate American 11" I have been reading this this way ( which may be wrong ) : This controller and McCormick were not in the same location, and so this controller saw this : the blip that he thought was Flight 11 dissapeared. Or maybe he didn´t know which blip was Flight 11. ( Do we know that he thought he knew which was Flight 11, and that this one dissapeared at 8:46? )

Whereas McCormick experienced the same thing as those Boston people : that the blip he believed to be Flight 11 kept going.

Anyway, that was a pretty civilized post. Really makes things easier.

I think a lot of the abuse in this thread is really about a lack of hability to express oneself. ( Is that good english? )
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tngledwebb Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-11-04 10:50 AM
Response to Reply #43
55. Cog Dis
Cuts both ways, unless there are other more complex agendas in play.
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Woody Box Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-10-04 07:26 PM
Response to Reply #40
46. Can you explain me the word teleconference?

I didn't find it, but as a polite gentleman you surely will explain it to me.


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LARED Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-10-04 07:42 PM
Response to Reply #46
47. Try this
http://education.yahoo.com/reference/dictionary/entries/73/t0087300.html

http://whatis.techtarget.com/definition/0,289893,sid9_gci213111,00.html

It's more than just a conversation using a phone between two people.

Also there is no indication that McCormick used a cell phone. The context clearly indicates they were in different areas. I would question if cell phones are even allowed to be used at an ATC station.


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Woody Box Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-11-04 02:56 AM
Response to Reply #47
48. The context
clearly indicates that McCormick was in the control room and called to the radar screen by one of his controllers:

"Wow, look at that!"

In the FAA's largest air traffic facility in New York state — a warehouse-like structure on Long Island, an hour east of Manhattan — manager Mike McCormick rushes to the banks of radar screens where controllers are trying to track Flight 11.

The former Marine presses his cordless phone to one ear as he talks to officials at other facilities in the New York area. But the other ear is doing most of the listening — to the radio reports of pilots who are watching the jet's progress.


The context also clearly indicates that he was talking to several people (colleagues from other facilities), not only one, as you seem to suggest.

The context also clearly indicates that the was using a wireless phone in the control room, not a cell phone, as you seem to suggest (that's not the same).

The context clearly indicates that he was watching Flight 11 on the radar screens at 8:48, together with his controllers.

The context clearly indicates that Flight 11 survived the North Tower crash, and this is confirmed by the other four or five statements in my original post you forgot to mention.



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LARED Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-11-04 05:35 AM
Response to Reply #48
49. Aren't time-lines fun?
Edited on Mon Oct-11-04 05:50 AM by LARED
According to the time line this was at 8:30 AM

"Wow, look at that!"

In the FAA's largest air traffic facility in New York state — a warehouse-like structure on Long Island, an hour east of Manhattan — manager Mike McCormick rushes to the banks of radar screens where controllers are trying to track Flight 11.

The former Marine presses his cordless phone to one ear as he talks to officials at other facilities in the New York area. But the other ear is doing most of the listening — to the radio reports of pilots who are watching the jet's progress.



You state:

The context also clearly indicates that he was talking to several people (colleagues from other facilities), not only one, as you seem to suggest.

That's true to the extent that he talked to several people, we do not know if it was at the same time or at different times. But the 9/11 report indicates he was in a teleconference in the Command Center at 8:48. This doesn't seem to be the same place to me

The context also clearly indicates that the was using a wireless phone in the control room, not a cell phone, as you seem to suggest (that's not the same).

You're probably right on this one.

The context clearly indicates that he was watching Flight 11 on the radar screens at 8:48, together with his controllers.

Well that text doesn't speak about what was going on at 8:48.

This does

At 8:48, while the controller was still trying to locate American 11, a New York Center manager provided the following report on a Command Center teleconference about American 11:

Manager, New York Center: Okay. This is New York Center. We’re watching the airplane. I also had conversation with American Airlines, and they ’ve told us that they believe that one of their stewardesses was stabbed and that there are people in the cockpit that have control of the aircraft, and that ’s all the information they have right now. 124


You still have not explained how, if McCormick was watching the radar screen and watching flight 11 with the ATC, the ATC was "still trying to locate" flight 11.

BTW I just love if incessant reposting of your baseless conclusion. Does repeating it over and over make you feel better or do you think a falsehood repeated long enough become believable?

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stickdog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-11-04 10:38 AM
Response to Reply #49
53. In this context, teleconference = telephone conference.
How could you possibly conclude otherwise if not for your own cognitive dissonance?
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LARED Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-11-04 10:42 AM
Response to Reply #53
54. Whatever
Lets change accepted definitions of words to suit your reality.

That's a great idea. Let's be demoractic about it and take a vote.


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stickdog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-11-04 11:02 AM
Response to Reply #54
56. Talk about cognitive dissonance!
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LARED Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-11-04 11:21 AM
Response to Reply #53
57. You must be right.
McCormick was watching the radar screen and watching flight 11 with the ATC, and the ATC was trying to locate flight 11 at the same time.

It's amazing that two experienced people are looking at the same radar image and one sees flight 11 and the other one is looking for it.

I'm sure that happens all the time.

If that's what you want to believe, suit yourself.

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stickdog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-11-04 11:35 AM
Response to Reply #57
59. Why are you changing the subject? (n/t)
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LARED Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-11-04 11:46 AM
Response to Reply #59
60. The subject has alway been your baseless remark
that

Flight 11 was spotted on the radar screens at 8:48 by New York ARTCC controllers:

Given the following, it is not reconcilable.

At 8:48, while the controller was still trying to locate American 11, a New York Center manager provided the following report on a Command Center teleconference about American 11:

Manager, New York Center: Okay. This is New York Center. We’re watching the airplane. I also had conversation with American Airlines, and they ’ve told us that they believe that one of their stewardesses was stabbed and that there are people in the cockpit that have control of the aircraft, and that ’s all the information they have right now. 124

The New York Center controller and manager were unaware that American 11 had already crashed. 9/11 report, p.21


But you know that, you just don't have it in you to admit you're wrong.
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LARED Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-11-04 12:22 PM
Response to Reply #53
61. How?
Edited on Mon Oct-11-04 12:23 PM by LARED
Because teleconference typical means more than just a telephone conference. Although a telephone conference clearly can be just using phones and more than two people.

Again, that's not the issue. The issue is where the teleconference took place.
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stickdog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-12-04 05:09 AM
Response to Reply #61
65. Where the fuck do you think it took place? Did the guy have to put on
makeup and sit in front of a video camera during the biggest emergency of his career? What possible benefit would have been derived from this guy leaving his post?

Here's the context again to help you:

http://www.usatoday.com/travel/news/2002/2002-08-12-clear-skies.htm

In the FAA's largest air traffic facility in New York state — a warehouse-like structure on Long Island, an hour east of Manhattan — manager Mike McCormick rushes to the banks of radar screens where controllers are trying to track Flight 11.

The former Marine presses his cordless phone to one ear as he talks to officials at other facilities in the New York area. But the other ear is doing most of the listening — to the radio reports of pilots who are watching the jet's progress.



Once again, your cognitive dissonance is showing.

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stickdog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-11-04 08:32 PM
Response to Reply #30
63. What's your explanation for the OBVIOUS problem with your analysis?
Edited on Mon Oct-11-04 08:33 PM by stickdog
http://www.cooperativeresearch.org/timeline.jsp?timeline=complete_911_timeline&day_of_911=aa11

Boston ATC notified NY ATC that Flight 11 was a potential hijacking before 8:25.

Flight 11 attendant Amy Sweeney tells Michael Woodward, an American Airlines flight service manager, about the hijacking around 8:20. Since Woodward has no tape recorder, he calls Nancy Wyatt, the supervisor of pursers at Logan Airport. Holding telephones in both hands, he repeats to Wyatt everything that Sweeney is saying to him. Wyatt in turn simultaneously transmits his account to the airline's Fort Worth, Texas headquarters. This conversation between Wyatt and managers at headquarters is recorded. All vital details from Sweeney's call reach American Airlines' top management almost instantly.

Betty Ong calls AA to tell the superiors about the hijacking before 8:25. Nydia Gonzalez, an American Airlines supervisor with expertise on security matters, is patched in to a call with flight attendant Betty Ong on Flight 11. At 8:27, Gonzalez calls manager Craig Marquis at American Airlines' headquarters. Gonzalez holds the phone to Ong to one ear, and the phone to Marquis to the other. The first four minutes of this call are later played before the 9/11 Commission. Marquis quickly says, “I'm assuming they've declared an emergency. Let me get ATC on here. Stand by …. Okay, we're contacting the flight crew now and we're … we're also contacting ATC.”

By 8:27, this information was passed to Gerard Arpey, the effective head of American Airlines that morning.

At 8:28, Boston flight control center calls the FAA's Command Center in Herdon, Virginia, and tells them that it believes Flight 11 has been hijacked and is heading towards New York airspace. At 8:32, the Command Center passes to the Operations Center at FAA headquarters in Washington. Headquarters replies that they've just begun discussing the hijack situation with the main FAA New England office. The Command Center immediately establishes a teleconference (read: CONFERENCE CALL or TELEPHONE CONFERENCE) between the Boston, New York, and Cleveland centers so that Boston can help the others understand what's happening.

By 8:37, Flight 11 passes from Boston flight control airspace into New York flight control airspace. Around 8:41, Flight 11's radar blip is pointed out to Dave Bottoglia, the NYC ATC in charge of the flight. He is made fully aware that it's a probable hijacking.

Sometime before 8:45, at American Airline's headquarters in Fort Worth, their crisis command center used in emergencies is activated. A page is sent to American's top executives and operations personnel: “Confirmed hijacking Flight 11.” Top managers gather at the command center and watch the radar blip of Flight 11 until it disappears over New York City. At 8:46, NYC ATC Dave Bottoglia supposedly sees Flight 93's radar blip disappear as well.

Exactly how many large passenger planes are allowed to fly directly over (or through) downtown NYC? Exactly how many of these are probable hijackings? Exactly how many then "disappear" from radar?


By 8:48, CNN is broadcasting video of a gaping, smoking hole in the WTC. As soon as Boston flight controllers hear news that a plane might have hit the WTC, they know it was Flight 11. They have been tracking it continually since it began behaving erratically.


******


So who the fuck is the NYC ATC manager talking to at the 8:48 "Command Center teleconference" such that NOBODY at the conference lets him know that Flight 11 has disappeared from radar?

Sure, I can believe that ONE ARTCC didn't notice that Flight 11 has "disappeared" over downtown NYC, but what about everybody else on the conference call?

Why at 8:58, does the NY ATC Dave Bottoglia "searching for United 175" tell another New York controller “we might have a hijack over here, two of them”? Is Flight 11 -- the other hijack he was also responsible no longer a concern of his? Out of sight, out of mind?

Between 9:01 and 9:02, why does New York Center nmanager tell the Command Center in Herndon, "We have several situations going on here. It’s escalating big, big time. We need to get the military involved with us . . . . We’re, we’re involved with something else, we have other aircraft that may have a similar situation going on here. . . ."

Is he aware by THIS time that Flight 11 has crashed? I mean, the radar blip supposedly disappears over the WTC and now the WTC has a big hole in it. It's been on TV for for four minutes now, and this is THE ARTCC in control of NYC airspace. Has anyone there figured it out yet? Has anyone in Boston or AA headquarters or maybe just a somebody's spouse or buddy watching CNN perhaps called them with the critically important news?


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MercutioATC Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-08-04 11:21 AM
Response to Reply #28
32. Woddy stated that "we're watching" meant that both the ATC and the
manager were physically watching the plane at the time of the statement. LARED correctly pointed out that "we're watching" didn't mean that.
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k-robjoe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-08-04 02:42 PM
Response to Reply #32
41. OK
You probably got that right.

I read the part where it said : " We're watching the airplane.
This means: I and someone else have visual perception of the airplane."

And so I probably got the wrong idea.

But what I don´t get is : Where do you (guys) think he was, and what was he talking about when he said that they were watching the airplane?

Why is it so very important, if there are reports about others that saw a blip that they thought was flight 11 on their radars, why is it so important that this must not be so in this case?
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seatnineb Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-08-04 10:21 AM
Response to Reply #27
29. Wrong.

The teleconference that you are refering to ,LARED, involved both New York and Boston....

The Herndon Command Center immedietly established a teleconference between Boston,New York,and the Cleveland Centers SO THAT BOSTON COULD HELP THE OTHERS UNDERSTAND WHAT WAS HAPPENING
9/11 Commission Report.
Page 19.

And look LARED.......

Boston center saw somethin on radar AFTER 8:46am on 9/11/01...

Boston Center was still tracking a blip believed to be Flight 11.
http://www.mistakesweremade.com/newhousenews012502.html





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LARED Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-08-04 11:17 AM
Response to Reply #29
31. Please explain
Edited on Fri Oct-08-04 11:20 AM by LARED
how what you posted establishes that the ATC and the manager were together at 8:48?

Also, let say loud and clear SO WHAT!!!!! that Boston center saw something on radar after 8:46.

It has been pointed out maybe something like a thousand times that there are lots of blips on radar. There are lots of planes in the air without transponders.
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seatnineb Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-08-04 11:36 AM
Response to Reply #31
35. Transponder anomaly
In the world of LARED.....
And the Boston center....

There are lots of planes in the air without transponders.......

Just like this one....

At 9:21, NEADS received a report from the FAA:
FAA: Military,Boston Center.I just had a report that American 11 is still in the air, and it ’s on its way towards —heading towards Washington.
NEADS: Okay.American 11 is still in the air?
FAA: Yes.
NEADS: On its way towards Washington?
FAA: That was another — it was evidently another aircraft that hit the tower. That ’s the latest report we have.
NEADS: Okay.
FAA: I ’m going to try to confirm an ID for you,but I would assume
he ’s somewhere over,uh, either New Jersey or somewhere further south.
NEADS: Okay. So American 11 isn ’t the hijack at all then,right?
FAA: No,he is a hijack.
NEADS: He —American 11 is a hijack?
FAA: Yes.
NEADS: And he ’s heading into Washington?
FAA: Yes. This could be a third aircraft.

9/11 commission report.
page 26

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LARED Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-08-04 11:51 AM
Response to Reply #35
38. Why are you changing the subject? (n/t)
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stickdog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-05-04 04:41 PM
Response to Original message
17. More info.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A50791-2004Jun17.html

Panel investigators also tersely concluded that authorities with NORAD repeatedly misinformed the commission in testimony last fall about its scrambling of fighters from Langley. NORAD officials indicated at the time that the jets were responding to either United Flight 93 or American Flight 77. In fact, the panel found, they were chasing "a phantom aircraft," American Flight 11, which had already struck the World Trade Center.

The commission found that officials were confronted with numerous false reports of hijacked aircraft that morning. "We fought many phantoms that day," testified Gen. Richard B. Myers, chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff.


http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/wp-dyn/A38407-2001Sep15

"Hi, Jules," Brian Sweeney was saying into his cell phone. "It's Brian. We've been hijacked, and it doesn't look too good." His wife, Julie, was not at their home in Barnstable, Mass., so he was talking into the answering machine. His voice sounded calm, but his message was fatalistic for a big guy, 6-foot-2 and 225 pounds, who had flown F-14s for the Navy. "Hopefully, I'll talk to you again, but if not, have a good life. I know I'll see you again some day." The time was 8:58. Sweeney was aboard United Flight 175, which had left Boston for Los Angeles and had crossed over Massachusetts and the northwest tip of Connecticut and lower New York State into New Jersey before the five terrorists took it on a different path, pounding toward Manhattan at low altitude.

At the air traffic control center in Garden City, Long Island, which tracks and manages traffic flow in high-level airspace over the New York area, controllers had caught sight on radar of this aircraft as it mades its descent. Its identification was still unknown to them. At this point, they were still searching for American Flight 11. They knew it had been hijacked but were unaware that it was the first plane to hit the tower. Now as this other craft lowered toward the city, they wondered whether it was another hijacked plane or a troubled aircraft rushing for a runway at either Newark or La Guardia. Then, in the dark and windowless control room lit only by the bank of radar screens, one controller stood up in horror. "No," he shouted, "He's not going to land. He's going in!"

"Oh, my God! He's headed for the city," another controller shouted. "Oh, my God! He's headed for Manhattan!"

...

Jeremy Glick called his wife, Lyzbeth, in Hewitt, N.J., with details of the hijackers: Middle Eastern, wearing red bandannas, with knives and a box they said was a bomb. He said some of the bigger men were talking about taking on the hijackers. They would try to storm the cockpit and take on their captors. As Glick talked, Lyzbeth could not stand the anxiety, and passed the phone on to her father. A final call came into the Westmoreland County 911 Center in Pennsylvania from a man who said he was locked in the lavatory. We're being hijacked, he said. This is not a hoax. The recorded time was 9:58.


http://www.9-11commission.gov/archive/hearing12/9-11Commission_Hearing_2004-06-17.htm

MR. JOHN AZZARELLO: American Airlines Flight 11 FAA Awareness. At 8:00 on September 11, 2001, American Airlines Flight 11 began its takeoff roll at Logan Airport in Boston. A Boeing 767, Flight 11 was bound for Los Angeles with 81 passengers, 11 crew, and 24,000 gallons of jet fuel. By 8:09, it was being monitored by FAA's Boston Center, located in New Hampshire. At 8:13, the controller instructed the flight to "turn twenty degrees right," which the flight acknowledged. This was the last transmission to which the flight responded. Sixteen seconds later, the controller instructed the flight to climb to 35,000 feet. When there was no response, the controller repeated the command seconds later, and then tried repeatedly to raise the flight. He used the emergency frequency to try to reach the pilot. Though there was no response, he kept trying to contact the aircraft.

At 8:21, American 11 turned off its transponder, immediately degrading the available information about the aircraft. The controller told his supervisor that he thought something was seriously wrong with the plane. At this point, neither the controller nor his supervisor suspected a hijacking. The supervisor instructed the controller to follow standard operating procedures for handling a "no radio," aircraft.

The controller checked to see if American Airlines could establish communication with American 11. He became even more concerned as its route changed, moving into another sector's airspace. Controllers immediately began to move aircraft out of its path, and searched from aircraft to aircraft in an effort to have another pilot contact American 11.

At 8:24 and 38 seconds, the following transmission came from American 11:

American 11 (from audiotape): We have some planes. Just stay quiet, and you'll be okay. We are returning to the airport.

MR. AZZARELLO: The controller only heard something unintelligible; he did not hear the specific words, "We have some planes."

Then the next transmission came seconds later:

American 11 (from audiotape): Nobody move. Everything will be okay. If you try to make any moves, you'll endanger yourself and the airplane. Just stay quiet.

...

At 8:32, the Command Center passed word of a possible hijacking to the Operations Center at FAA headquarters. The duty officer replied that security personnel at headquarters had just begun discussing the hijack situation on a conference call with the New England regional office. The Herndon Command Center immediately established a teleconference between Boston, New York, and Cleveland Centers so that Boston Center could help the others understand what was happening.

...

Military Notification and Response. Boston Center did not just follow the routine protocol in seeking military assistance through the prescribed chain of command. In addition to making notifications within the FAA, Boston Center took the initiative, at 8:34, to contact the military through the FAA's Cape Cod facility.

They also tried to obtain assistance from a former alert site in Atlantic City, unaware that it had been phased out. At 8:37 and 52 seconds, Boston Center reached NEADS. This was the first notification received by the military at any level that American 11 had been hijacked:

(Begin audiotape.)

FAA (from audiotape): Hi. Boston Center TMU. We have a problem here. We have a hijacked aircraft headed towards New York, and we need you guys to -- we need someone to scramble some F-16s or something up there, to help us out.

NEADS: Is this real-world or exercise?

FAA: No, this is not an exercise, not a test.

(End audiotape.)

....

Because the hijackers had turned off the plane's transponder, NEADS personnel spent the next minutes searching their radar scopes for the elusive primary radar return. American 11 impacted the World Trade Center's North Tower at 8:46 and 40 seconds. Shortly after 8:50, while NEADS personnel were still trying to locate American 11, word reached them that a plane had hit the World Trade Center. Radar data show the Otis fighters were airborne at 8:53. Lacking a target, they were vectored toward military-controlled airspace off the Long Island coast. To avoid New York area air traffic, and uncertain about what to do, the fighters were brought down to military air space to, "hold as needed." From 9:08 to 9:13, the Otis fighters were in this holding pattern.

....

United Airlines Flight 175 FAA Awareness. United Airlines Flight 175, a Boeing 767 carrying 65 passengers from Boston to Los Angeles, took off from Logan Airport at 8:14. At 8:37 Boston Center polled United 175, along with other aircraft, about whether they had seen a, "American 767," American 11 that they were looking for. And United 175's pilots said they had seen it. The controller turned United 175 away from it as a safety precaution.

At 8:41, United 175 entered New York Center's airspace. The controller responsible for United 175 was unfortunately the same controller assigned the job of tracking the hijacked American 11. At 8:47, at almost the same time American 11 crashed into the North Tower, United 175's assigned transponder code changed -- then changed again. These changes were not noticed for several minutes, because the controller was focused on finding American 11, which had disappeared. At 8:48, the New York Center manager provided the following report on a Command Center teleconference about American 11, including information that had been relayed by the airline:

MANAGER, NEW YORK CENTER (from audiotape): Okay. This is New York Center. We're watching the airplane. I also had conversation with American Airlines, and they've told us that they believe that one of their stewardesses was stabbed and that there are people in the cockpit that have control of the aircraft, and that's all the information they have right now.

MR. AZZARELLO: The New York Center controller and manager were unaware that American 11 had already crashed.

At 8:51, the controller noticed the change in the transponder reading from United 175. The controller asked United 175 to go back to the proper code. There was no response. Beginning at 8:52, the controller made repeated attempts to reach the crew of United 175. Still no response. The controller checked that his radio equipment was working and kept trying to reach United 175. He contacted another controller at 8:53, and worried that, "we may have a hijack," and that he could not find the aircraft.

Another commercial aircraft in the vicinity then radioed in with, "reports over the radio of a commuter plane hitting the World Trade Center." The controller spent the next several minutes handing off the other flights on his scope to other controllers and moving aircraft out of the way of the unidentified aircraft believed to be United 175 as it moved southwest and then turned northeast toward New York City.

At approximately 8:55, the controller-in-charge notified a New York Center manager that she believed United 175 had also been hijacked. The manager tried to notify the regional managers and was told that the managers were discussing a hijacked aircraft, presumably American 11, and refused to be disturbed. At 8:58, the New York Center controller searching for United 175 told another New York controller, "we might have a hijack over here, two of them."

Between 9:01 and 9:02, a manager from New York Center told the Command Center in Herndon:

MANAGER, NEW YORK CENTER (from audiotape): We have several situations going on here. It's escalating big, big time, and we need to get the military involved with us.

COMMAND CENTER: We're -- we're involved with something else. We have other aircraft that may have a similar situation going on here.

MR. AZZARELLO: The, "other aircraft," New York Center referred to was United 175. Evidence indicates that this conversation was the only notice received prior to the second crash by either FAA headquarters or the Herndon Command Center that there was a second hijack.

While Command Center was told about this, "other aircraft" at 9:01, New York Center contacted New York terminal approach control and asked for help in locating United 175.

(Begin audiotape.)

TERMINAL: I got somebody who keeps coasting but it looks like he's going into one of the small airports down there.

CENTER: Hold on a second. I'm trying to bring him up here and get you -- there he is right there. Hold on.

TERMINAL: Got him just out of 9,500-9,000 now.

CENTER: Do you know who he is?

TERMINAL: We're just, we just we don't know who he is. We're just picking him up now.

CENTER (at 9:02): All right. Heads up man, it looks like another one coming in.


MR. AZZARELLO: The controllers observed the plane in a rapid descent; the radar data terminated over Lower Manhattan. At 9:03 and two seconds, United 175 crashed into the South Tower.

...

Shortly after 9:00, Indianapolis Center started notifying other agencies that American 77 was missing and had possibly crashed. At 9:08, Indianapolis Center contacted Air Force search and rescue at Langley Air Force Base, Virginia, and told them to look out for a downed aircraft. They also contacted the West Virginia state police and asked whether they had any reports of a downed aircraft.

...

The failure to find a primary radar return for American 77 led us to investigate this issue further. Radar reconstructions performed after 9/11 reveal that FAA radar equipment tracked the flight from the moment its transponder was turned off at 8:56, but for eight minutes and 13 seconds, between 8:56 and 9:05, this primary radar information on American 77 was not displayed to controllers at Indianapolis Center. The reasons are technical, arising from the way software processed radar information, as well as from core primary radar coverage where American 77 had been flying.

According to the radar reconstruction, American 77 re-emerged as a primary target on Indianapolis Center radar scopes at 9:05, east of its last known position. The target remained in Indianapolis Center's air space for another six minutes, then crossed into the western portion of Washington Center's air space at 9:10.

The Command Center kept looking for American 77. At 9:21 it advised the Dulles terminal control facility, which urged its controllers to look for primary targets. At 9:32, they found one. Several of the Dulles controllers, "observed the primary radar target tracking eastbound at a high rate of speed," and notified Reagan Airport. FAA personnel at both Reagan and Dulles Airports notified the Secret Service. The identity or aircraft type was unknown.

Reagan Airport controllers then vectored an unarmed National Guard C-130H cargo aircraft, which had just taken off en route to Minnesota, to identify and follow the suspicious aircraft. The C-130H pilot spotted it, identified it as a Boeing 757, attempted to follow its path, and at 9:38, seconds after impact, reported to Washington tower: "Looks like that aircraft crashed into the Pentagon, sir."


...

Military notification and response. NORAD did not know about the search for American 77. Instead, they heard once again about a plane that no longer existed, American 11. At 9:21, NEADS received a report from the FAA.

(Begin audiotape.)

FAA REPRESENTATIVE: FAA military to Boston Center. I just had a report that American 11 is still in the air and it's on its way towards -- heading towards Washington.

NEADS TECHNICIAN: American 11 is still in the air --

FAA REPRESENTATIVE: Yes.

NEADS TECHNICIAN: -- on its way towards Washington?

FAA REPRESENTATIVE: It was another aircraft that hit the tower. That's the latest report we have.

NEADS TECHNICIAN: Okay.

FAA REPRESENTATIVE: I'm going to try to confirm an ID for you, but I would assume he's somewhere over either New Jersey or somewhere further south.

NEADS TECHNICIAN: Okay. So American 11 isn't a hijack at all, then, right?

FAA REPRESENTATIVE: No, he is a hijack.

NEADS TECHNICIAN: American 11 is a hijack?

FAA REPRESENTATIVE: Yes.

NEADS TECHNICIAN: And he's going into Washington.

FAA REPRESENTATIVE: This could be a third aircraft.


(End of audiotape.)

MR. FARMER: This mention of a, "third aircraft," was not a reference to American 77. There was confusion at that moment in the FAA. Two planes had struck the World Trade Center, and Boston Center had heard from FAA Headquarters in Washington that American 11 was still airborne. We have been unable to identify the source of this mistaken FAA information.

The NEADS technician who took this call from the FAA immediately passed the word to the mission crew commander. He in turn reported to the NEADS battle commander.

(Begin audiotape.)

MISSION CREW COMMANDER: Okay, American Airlines is still airborne -- 11, the first guy. He's heading towards Washington. Okay, I think we need to scramble Langley right now and I'm going to take the fighters from Otis and try to chase this guy down if I can find him.

(End of audiotape.)

MR. FARMER: The mission crew commander at NEADS issued an order at 9:23: "Okay, scramble Langley. Head them towards the Washington area." That order was processed and transmitted to Langley Air Force Base at 9:24, and radar data show the Langley fighters were airborne at 9:30.

NEADS decided to keep the Otis fighters over New York. The heading of the Langley fighters was adjusted to send them to the Baltimore area. The mission crew commander explained to us that the purpose was to position the Langley fighters between the reported southbound American 11 and the nation's capital.

At the suggestion of the Boston Center's military liaison, NEADS contacted the FAA's Washington Center to ask about American 11. In the course of the conversation, a Washington Center manager informed NEADS that: "We're looking. We also lost American 77." The time was 9:34.


This was the first notice to the military that American 77 was missing, and it had come by chance. If NEADS had not placed that call, the NEADS air defenders would have received no information whatsoever that American 77 was even missing, although the FAA had been searching for it. No one at FAA Command Center or Headquarters ever asked for military assistance with American 77.

At 9:36, the FAA's Boston Center called NEADS and related the discovery about the aircraft closing in on Washington, an aircraft that still had not been linked with the missing American 77. The FAA told NEADS: "Latest report, aircraft VFR" -- visual flight rules -- "six miles southeast of the White House -- six southwest, six southwest of the White House, deviating away."

...

Controllers at NEADS located an unknown primary radar track but, "It kind of faded" over Washington. The time was 9:38. The Pentagon had been struck by American 77 at 9:37:46. The Langley fighters were approximately 150 miles away.

...

MR. FARMER: The controller responded: "United 93, understand you have a bomb on board. Go ahead." The flight did not respond. At 9:41, Cleveland Center lost United 93's transponder signal. The controller located it on primary radar, matched its position with visual sightings from other aircraft, and tracked the flight as turned east, then south.

At about 9:36, Cleveland Center asked Command Center specifically whether someone had requested the military to launch fighter aircraft to intercept United 93. Cleveland Center offered to contact a nearby military base. Command Center replied that FAA personnel well above them in the chain of command had to make that decision and were working the issue.

From 9:34 to 10:08, a Command Center manager updated executives at FAA Headquarters on the progress of United 93. During this time, the plane reversed course over Ohio and headed toward Washington. At 9:42, Command Center learned from television news reports that a plane had struck the Pentagon.

MR. FARMER: At 9:53, FAA Headquarters informed Command Center that the deputy director for air traffic services was talking to Deputy Administrator Monte Belger about scrambling aircraft. Then Command Center informed Headquarters they lost track of United 93 over the Pittsburgh area.

Within seconds, Command Center received a visual report from another aircraft and informed headquarters that the aircraft was 20 miles northwest of Johnstown. United 93 was spotted by another aircraft, and at 10:01 Command Center advised FAA Headquarters that one of the aircraft had seen United 93 "waving his wings." The aircraft had witnessed the radical gyrations in what we believe was the hijackers' effort to defeat the passenger assault on the cockpit.

United 93 crashed in Pennsylvania at 10:03:11, 125 miles from Washington D.C. The precise crash time has been the subject of some dispute. The 10:03:11 time is supported by evidence from the staff's radar analysis, the flight data recorder, NTSB analysis and infrared satellite data.

...

MR. FARMER: The aircraft that spotted the "black smoke" (from Flight 93's crash) was the same unarmed Air National Guard cargo plane that had seen United 77 crash into the Pentagon 26 minutes earlier. It had resumed its flight to Minnesota and saw the smoke from the crash of United 93 less than two minutes after the plane went down.

...

The news of a reported bomb on board United 93 spread quickly at NEADS. The air defenders searched for United 93's primary radar return and tried to locate assets to scramble toward the plane. NEADS called Washington Center to report:

(Begin audiotape.)

NEADS: I also want to give you a heads-up, Washington.

FAA-D.C.: Go ahead.

NEADS: United 93 -- have you got information on that yet?

FAA: Yeah, he's down.

NEADS: He's down?

FAA: Yes.

NEADS: When did he land? 'Cause we have confirmation --

FAA: He did not land.

...

The Military is "Questioned"

MR. BEN-VENISTE:Let me direct my remaining to General Eberhart and General Arnold.

Why did no one mention the false report received from FAA that Flight 11 was heading south during your initial appearance before the 9/11 Commission back in May of last year? And why was there no report to us that contrary to the statements made at the time, that there had been no notification to NORAD that Flight 77 was a hijack?

GEN. LARRY ARNOLD: Well, the first part of your question -- Mr. Commissioner, first of all, I would like to say that a lot of the information that you have found out in your study of this of this 9/11, the things that happened on that day, helped us reconstruct what was going on.

And if you're talking about the American 11, in particular, the call of American 11, is that what you are referring to?

MR. BEN-VENISTE: Yes.

GEN. ARNOLD: The American 11, that was -- call after it had impacted, is that what you're referring to?

MR. BEN-VENISTE: No. I'm talking about the fact that there was miscommunication that Flight 11 was still heading south instead of having impacted --

GEN. ARNOLD: That's what I'm referring to. That's correct. As we -- as we worked with your committee in looking at that, that was probably the point in time where we were concerned -- remember, that call, as I recall, actually came after United 175, as well as American 11, had already impacted the North and South Towers of the World Trade Center. And then we became very concerned, not knowing what the call signs of those aircraft were that had hit the World Trade Center, we became very concerned at that particular point that those aircraft, that some aircraft might be heading towards Washington, D.C.

MR. BEN-VENISTE: General, is it not a fact that the failure to call our attention to the miscommunication and the notion of a phantom Flight 11 continuing from New York City south in fact skewed the whole reporting of 9/11, it skewed the official Air Force report, which is contained in a book called "The Air War Over America," which does not contain any information about the fact that you were following, or thinking of a continuation of Flight 11, and that you had not received notification that Flight 77 had been hijacked?

GEN. ARNOLD: Well, as I recall, first of all, I didn't know the call signs of the airplanes when these things happened. When the call came that American 11 was possible hijacked aircraft, that aircraft just led me to come to the conclusion that there were other aircraft in the system that were a threat to the United States.

MR. BEN-VENISTE: General Arnold, surely by May of last year, when you testified before this commission, you knew those facts.

GEN. ARNOLD: I didn't recall those facts in May of last year. That's the correct answer to that. In fact, as I recall, during that time frame, my concern was, why did -- the question that came to me was, why did we scramble the aircraft out of Langley Air Force Base, the F-16s out of Langley Air Force Base? And there had been statements made by some that we scrambled that aircraft the report of American 77, which was not the case, and I knew that.

And I was trying to remember in my own mind what was it that persuaded us to scramble those aircraft. And I thought at the time it was United 93. But as I was able to -- we did not have the times when these things were -- when we were notified of this. I did not have that information at that time. I didn't have it.

MR. BEN-VENISTE: General Arnold --

MR. ARNOLD: And so we scrambled those aircraft to get them over Washington D.C. to protect Washington D.C.

MR. BEN-VENISTE: According to our staff, you know that there was a substantial problem in getting information from NORAD, that we received information, we were told that the information was complete. We went out into the field, our staff did, and did a number of interviews. And as a result of those interviews, we found that there were tapes which reflected the facts relating to Flight 11.

And we found additional information by which we were able, through assiduous and painstaking work, listening to any number of tape recordings, to reconstruct what actually occurred, as you have heard in the Staff Statement.

I take it you have no disagreement with the facts put forward in the Staff Statement. That's been produced in advance for comment, and I take it you're in agreement now with our staff's conclusions with respect to those facts.

MR. ARNOLD: I am.

...

MR. LEHMAN: As you know, the Israeli air force has exercised, practiced and developed techniques for dealing with hijacked aircraft for years and years. For instance, they carry special missiles that are not to destroy -- designed not to destroy airliners but to force them to land, missiles with inert warheads and other sophisticated gear.

What have you guys done to equip our Air Guard and other NORAD potentially assigned units with the training, with the rules of engagement and the hardware that gives them an option other than what we have now, which is just to destroy the aircraft and all its passengers?

GEN. MYERS: I'm aware of at least one program which is classified, so we can either talk about it offline or provide you the classified paper on it. There may be others to do exactly that.

MR. LEHMAN: President Bush told us in our interview that he was deeply dissatisfied with the ability to communicate from Air Force One. He told us that this was a very major flaw. Has this been fixed, and are you personally satisfied that those communications have been improved sufficiently so that a president will have the connectivity that he didn't have that day?

GEN. MYERS: Let me answer that for the record, so I can be very specific on that. Let me answer that for the record.

MR. LEHMAN: Okay. One of the happy instances of the day was that NORAD happened to be fully mobilized in a CP exercise, and had everybody, in effect, at battle stations. And even so we saw these glitches like a failure to pass on rules of engagements to the pilots over the Capitol area. If they hadn't been at full mobilized status, what would have happened then? Would it have been much worse?

GEN. MYERS: Well, I would let General Eberhart answer that. But from my experience, no, it wouldn't have been much worse. It was fortuitous that it was the case, but certainly at the Northeast Air Defense Sector, Southeast, the CONR region at NORAD, there are people that are always on duty to respond, and whether or not we'd had the exercise or not, people would have responded. And my best estimate is that the response would not have -- would have been very similar, even with not having all those additional that might have been present for an exercise. But I would let General Eberhart talk about that.

...

MR. KERREY: Well, I appreciate your wanting not to bash the FAA, but, my God, the Cleveland Center said somebody needs to notify the military and scramble planes, and they didn't. You would have an additional 30 minutes of notification. Now it turns out that passengers on 93 took care of it for us. But it's -- you know, I don't consider it to be bashing just to say to them, My God, you guys should have notified us -- and didn't. And that's a fairly significant breakdown.

...

MR. ROEMER: Well, let's go on to the second part of the question then, when we really do have information, at least a possibility that information is being conveyed from the vice president to NORAD that we have a threat out there. And this is so surprising, so shocking to some people, that I believe it's Colonel Marr decides not to convey the vice president's order on to the pilots that are circling around Washington.

Now, it may be highly unlikely that they could have done something, given that 93 has already crashed. But the fact is it was not passed on to those pilots that were protecting the city. How long would it have taken to authenticate that, if the colonel decides to pass that on at a later time? Why didn't he at least attempt to say to those pilots, This is a very tough thing to understand, but here's what the vice president of the United States has ordered for our military to consider for a specific target in Washington, D.C.?

GEN. EBERHART: Obviously I'd be speculating about what Colonel Marr -- why he made that decision --

MR. ROEMER: You haven't asked him this in an after-action report?

GEN. EBERHART: Well, we have. We did.

MR. ROEMER: What did he say?

GEN. EBERHART: There was great concern that morning, commissioner -- on my behalf, on Larry Arnold and Bob Marr as the chain of command goes -- that we were very concerned about the ability to shoot down a hijacked airplane. But frankly, we were just as concerned about making a mistake. And if you think this is an interesting session here this morning, and what you've been through, had we made a mistake on that morning, or subsequent days, I would offer it has a much different content.

MR. ROEMER: Mistake meaning that you shoot down the wrong airliner?

GEN. EBERHART: Exactly. So that was at the forefront of Bob Marr's concern, is we don't have a confirmed hijacking right now. Let's make sure we clearly understand this order, convey it properly, so that in fact we do not make a mistake.

...

GEN. ARNOLD: I can order a scramble. We -- the issue is whether or not we intercept the hijacked airplane. So, we got the airplanes airborne, put them out in a warning area, where they are allowed to fly anyway, to -- then to determine whether we're going to have the priorities to --

MR. GORTON: And so you had to go higher up before you sent them to New York?

GEN. ARNOLD: Sure. I called -- I called the -- General Findlay, who was the (inaudible) DO, and told him what we were doing. He said, "Fine, we'll get the authorities."

And the fact that they were going towards New York, from my perspective, because that's where the warning area was initially, because we didn't know that -- we certainly didn't know that the hijacked airplane, even after we saw on the television the smoking hole in the World Trade Center, as tragic as it was, we did not know that that was caused by one of the hijacked airplanes.

MR. GORTON: Now, it's not in the report that we gave here today, but I understand from our staff that in your -- in a staff interview with you, General Arnold, you said that if you had deemed it necessary, you would have communicated a shoot-down order even though you hadn't heard through the secretary of defense or the vice president or anyone else, if you felt that it was necessary -- is that correct?

GEN. ARNOLD: I sure hope that I would never have to come to that. I think it's a reference to the United 93. We -- United 93, very shortly -- I guess by the time we had heard about it, your staff tells me, because we did not know that, the airplane was already -- had already hit the ground up in Pennsylvania, thanks to the heroic efforts of those passengers that were on board.

And the question that came to me was, "What would you have done?" And we were, at that time, again, seeking presidential authority to shoot that aircraft down, and as we were flying towards it. So, it never came to that point. But it's very typical in an intercept, you try to get that airplane, get to the side of them, get their attention, see if they will respond to you, and based on what had happened earlier, and we knew what happened earlier, obviously, the question came to me, "What would you have done?" And, using some emergency authorities, and God help me if I ever had to do this, we would have given the order to shoot them down.

...

MR. KEAN: I've got a couple of questions. First of all, beside the sites you had, the 14 alerted planes, the seven sites, what about other assets? Did you have -- what about the National Guard sites, Coast Guard, Customs, Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms? Usually, you think of those planes, you look at whatever being alert and ready -- what about those assets? Did you have those available to you?

GEN. EBERHART: Sir, on 9/11, in terms of the other assets, we did not track them and we were not linked to them from other government agencies. And so we had not factored into our air defense because we believed the attack was going to come in the form an enemy bomber at 35,000 feet at .8 mach, et cetera, and don't have the capacity or capability to deal with that. They are now factored in, whether it's --

MR. KEAN: So you had no link to those other assets on that day, and you do now?

GEN. EBERHART: Exactly. Now, "no link" is not exactly right. As we work some drug enforcement issues, we worked with different organizations where, that we would, if they didn't have an asset available, we would go track an asset for them and tell them what we saw, identify it, and tell them where it landed, and then it was a law enforcement issue in terms of what -- suspected drug trafficking. So, we had that linkage through different organizations.

...

MS. GORELICK: A couple of follow-up questions. First, for General Arnold, you testified before us before that the jets were scrambled in response to Flight 93, not American 11, and when you were asked about --

GEN. ARNOLD: I was wrong. I was wrong.

MS. GORELICK: Yeah. But -- but the question about that is, and I want to be fair to you and give you an opportunity to respond, you said that the reason that you were wrong was that you hadn't had an opportunity to listen to the tapes, or the tapes were not accessible. But, I mean, we have -- I'm just holding four of them -- different headquarters and CONR logs that are -- that clearly reflect that the scrambling was done in response to this phantom American 11, which didn't exist anymore. And it was responsibility, as I recall, to do the after-action report, or to lead it, or to be in part responsible for it. Did you not look at the logs in that process?

GEN. ARNOLD: Well, you refer to an after-action report that I was -- that we didn't do. I mean, I don't recall doing an after- action report --

MS. GORELICK: Well maybe --

GEN. ARNOLD: -- other than the fact that we tried to capture when the aircraft took off, when they, you know, how soon we were able to react to those aircraft, and that was the real issue. So, as I get older, I guess my memory was not as good as it should be, and your staff actually helped me out quite a bit in terms of this one particular area, because I was never comfortable with the fact that some people have said that we had scrambled because of American -- American 77, and that I knew was not the case. So, I guess in the way the human mind works, unfortunately, is we try to put things into some kind of category. And then, as we heard this log, or this log was presented to me, it made more sense to me then that that's what had occurred. It occurred to us -- we have now had two airplanes that hit, and we got a call that this, another airplane, because it was another airplane to me, had been hijacked. And so now, the Northeast Air Defense Sector correct was scrambling aircraft out of Langley to get - to get an aircraft over Washington, D.C. in case that aircraft that was called was headed towards Washington, D.C.

MS. GORELICK: I'm struck by two times. After the second World Trade Center was hit, and 9:03, I think everybody concluded we were under attack. And as I understand it, you have the authority to put in place something that I don't know what it stands for, called SCATANA which is essentially that you, military, take control of the skies from the civilians, FAA, and that you did that at around 11:00. And my question for you is why that gap? And, whose decision would that have been?

GEN. EBERHART: SCATANA is a procedure that, as you say, allows us to take control of the airspace. It's a procedure that was designed, again, to counter the Soviet Union and their long-range bombers. It's a procedure that -- that if I had tried and -- and as the people approached me with "declare SCATANA" the problem was that we could not control the air space that day with the radars we had and all the aircraft that were airborne -- four to five thousand airplanes airborne. So, if I suddenly say, "We've got it, we will control the airspace," we would have had worse problems than we had that morning because I cannot provide traffic deconfliction like the FAA has. What mine is designed to do is we see a bomber coming from a long range, we tell everybody to get the aircraft down, safely, then nothing flies and we control the airspace. We are prepared to do that, but we're not prepared suddenly to take control of the airspace and say we have it, because now we're talking in terms of safety and security of air travel. We're talking about a bad situation getting worse.

...

GEN. EBERHART: And remember, on Flight 93, they didn't know where 93 was. And so when you see the line on the chart that reflies 93, we postulate that based on the last radar contact and where it crashed, sadly. So they didn't have the radar track, so therefore they couldn't tell us where it was.

...

MR. ROEMER: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Captain, just a brief follow-up to Commissioner Lehman's last question. He asked you, were you satisfied with your connectivity to the White House and Air Force One. You said you were satisfied with the White House. Were you satisfied with Air Force One? And I think it's been conveyed to you that in our interview with the president, the president said he was very frustrated and troubled with connections and connectivity that day.

ADM. LEIDIG: Sir, I can't speak to the connectivity with Air Force One. I was connected to the White House. And my understanding is Air Force One was in contact with the White House Situation Room. I was not in contact with --

MR. ROEMER: So you have no knowledge of that.

ADM. LEIDIG: No, sir.

MR. LEHMAN: Is there no NMCC protocol to connect directly with Air Force One?

ADM. LEIDIG: Yes, sir, there is a capability to do that. On that day we were connected with the White House.

MR. ROEMER: Why weren't you using that other capability?

ADM. LEIDIG: I don't recall, sir.

...

MR. BEN-VENISTE: Yes. I'd like to first relay information again from our staff report and so that there is clarity in the record. It is our information that FAA tracked Flight 93 from the moment it was hijacked. The problem was that it did not communicate the hijack information to NORAD so that NORAD was in position, with unarmed planes, over Washington and the Capitol at some point.

MR. ARNOLD: Sir, I believe there's a time there where FAA lost radar contact with this airplane. And that's what I believe I remember, so we'll have to check the record.

MR. BEN-VENISTE: The information we have is they lost it briefly around Pittsburgh and they picked it back up again.

...

The FAA is "Questioned"

MS. GORELICK: My colleague, Senator Gorton, will have some additional questions. We've kind of divided up the territory here on the day of 9/11. But, I'm particularly interested in one thing. At 9:16 the tapes reveal that a manager from the Boston center asked the command center to issue a -- on the day of 9/11, issue a nationwide cockpit security alert, which Boston had done. Which meant, as I understand it, you told everybody, lock your cockpit doors, or beware of someone trying to enter the cockpit. But, such an alert was not issued, and a quarter of an hour later the cockpit in United 93 was breached. Can you explain that decision. Can any of you explain that decision?

MR. BELGER: Mr. White was the senior person at the command center, he might be best able to do that.

MR. WHITE: I wasn't aware of that request.

MS. GORELICK: Your mike.

MR. WHITE: I wasn't aware of that request, this is the first time I've heard of it, today. I wasn't in a position that day to have heard that request. I have always been under the assumption that we did issue a verbal warning to the air carriers about cockpit security. I don't know if we even made a decision, or if there was ever a determination made why we shouldn't send an advisory out. I'm not aware.

...

MR. BELGER: Right. The most frustrating after-the-fact scenario for me to understand is to explain is the communication link on that morning between the FAA operations center and the NMCC. That's still frustrating for me to understand how that -- I know how it's supposed to work, but I have to tell you it's still a little frustrating for me to understand how it actually did work on that day. It is clear I think in the record that at 9:20 the FAA operations center did call the National Military Command Center and add them into the hijacking net. The hijacking net is an open communication net run by the FAA hijack coordinator, who is a senior person from the FAA security organization, for the purpose of getting the affected federal agencies together to hear information at the same time. That's the purpose of the hijack net. There are other nets off of that, which some are classified and some are real technical command type of discussions. But the fundamental primary source of information between the FAA, DOD, FBI, Secret Service, and which every other agencies -- the airlines would probably be on that net -- is the FAA hijack net. That was activated with the NMCC at 9:20. It was my assumption that morning, as it had been for my 30 years of experience with the FAA, that the NMCC was on that net and hearing everything real-time.

MS. GORELICK: Did you do anything to ensure that your assumption, a costly one, was correct?

MR. BELGER: No. I did as I was -- I was real busy that morning. I did not ask specifically is the NMCC on. And I can tell you I've lived through dozens of hijackings in my 30-year FAA career, as a very low entry-level inspector up through to the headquarters, and they were always there. They were always on the net, and were always listening in with everybody else.

MS. GORELICK: At some point, however, in the course of that call you became aware that the military was not involved in any meaningful way. Is that correct? We heard some rather colorful language came from your mouth at that point.

...

MR. GORTON: Mr. Belger, I want to go back to one of Commissioner Gorelick's subjects. You very clearly describe the protocol with respect to hijacking that was in effect on 9/11. But we have a rather troubling note from the staff that I will share with you and ask you to comment on. Most managers at FAA headquarters have little or no recollection of the protocols in place on 9/11 with respect to their roles and responsibilities on a hijacking. With the exception of a few individuals from the Security Division, there appear to be little or no training at FAA headquarters or Command Center regarding hijacking procedures. Indeed, when asked to identify who the hijack coordinator was on 9/11, it was difficult to find two witnesses who identified the same individual. At the Command Center, no one could remember any training or exercises regarding the role that the center would play in a hijacking. Is that a fair statement?

MR. BELGER: Well, from my perspective there is no doubt in my mind that the FAA security organization knew what to do. There is no doubt in my mind that the air traffic organization knew what to do. They are the two key players in that type of scenario. I think Mr. Griffith was the senior air traffic person in the headquarters. He probably has more direct knowledge of what the air traffic people knew than I did, and maybe he could answer that.

MR. GORTON: Fine.

MR. GRIFFITH: Thank you. As Mr. Belger stated, from my point of view I'm absolutely sure that our field managers know -- knew on 9/11 what to do in the event of a hijacking. The procedures are very cleared. The procedures are trained as a matter of refresher training in our operational facilities every year, and it surprises me to hear that someone would think that our field managers would not know what to do in the event of a hijacking. There are protocols, there are check lists, there are folders that are kept in operational positions where people have responsibility for reporting. And through the years -- not only for hijackings, but aircraft accidents and other incidents -- reporting is a very high priority. So it surprises me that people would think our managers didn't know how to report.

...

MR. GORTON: On 9/11, the Command Center effectively was the nerve center for information on suspicious aircraft. Yet as I understand it the Command Center had no defined role with respect to obtaining military assistance, fighter assistance. Is that correct? And, if so, why weren't those authorities combined?

MR. SLINEY: Available to us at the Command Center of course is the military cell, which was our liaison with the military services. They were present at all of the events that occurred on 9/11.

The normal protocols for the events that were transpiring then -- that is to say hijacked aircraft, which requires a notification to NORAD -- those, at least I was given to understand, were made promptly -- the notifications on each hijack. The --

MR. GORTON: You understood that they were made promptly?

MR. SLINEY: That's correct.

MR. GORTON: It wasn't you -- it wasn't your responsibility to do so?

MR. SLINEY: That is correct. I believe I am correct in stating that that responsibility devolves upon the air route traffic control center in whose jurisdiction that hijack occurs. I was given to understand that all such notifications were made. I had no reason to believe they were not.

The -- I'm getting away from your question, though. You ask me if we had a procedure in place to deal with such an event -- is that what you're asking?

MR. GORTON: At the Command Center.

MR. SLINEY: With -- well, I just want to be clear on this aspect of it. Dealing with aircraft that would be hijacked and used as weapons?

MR. GORTON: No.

MR. SLINEY: No. Dealing with hijacked --

MR. GORTON: Dealing with direct notification to the military or request for assistance from the military.

MR. SLINEY: In direct response to your question was FAA headquarters primarily through the security organization to request assistance from the military. We had no process in place where a Command Center would make such a request for a military assistance. I believe the military was involved, and you know I suppose in hindsight it's too simplistic to say that they all look alike to me. If you tell the military you've told the military. They have their own communication web that I think defeated some of the notification processes, as I've been listening to today. But in my mind everyone who needed to be notified about the events transpiring was notified, including the military.

...

MR. KEAN: Thank you, Senator. I just had one question, I guess, on the transponder. As I understand it, and forgive me, because I don't know much technologically about anything, but the transponder can get turned off. At that point, at least temporarily, the aircraft disappears and you have to put it back to that -- just follow me and tell me if I'm right -- then you have to find it again on radar, but there are stretches of the country where radar doesn't cover, as there was with one of these flights, and the aircraft then totally disappears for a while. Is that correct?

MR. SLINEY: Not to my understanding, and particularly not in the Northeast, where radar coverage is extensive. But I believe the altitude of the aircraft would affect our ability to track the primary or radar target. The transponder enhances that. If the transponder is on, you can pretty much follow the target anywhere. But at low altitudes, you would have the terrain and other anomalies of the radar that would prevent you from tracking the aircraft at a low altitude.

MR. KEAN: Well, I'm asking -- one of these - I'm asking this question is one of the aircraft did disappear, and for a period of time --

MR. SLINEY: Disappeared, yes. As I understood --

MR. KEAN: Because of the altitude, I guess, because it was flying high, and it was flying in an area where the radar coverage was not the same as it is in the Northeast?

MR. SLINEY: I would be speculating on who had it in radar contact. There are radars that would have seen the target regardless. Would they have known what to be looking for, I do not know. Did Boston Center lose radar control of the aircraft, or lose the target? They could have. Their altitude -- their altitude structure is much higher than the terminal radar approach controls, which probably could have seen it, but would not have had the electronic representation of the data associated with that target at those terminal radar approach controls as the center would have.

...

And, on the day itself, the testimony of witnesses, and you heard our report this morning, where FAA had what is to me a surprisingly hierarchal and centralized set of protocols where everything had to be cleared upstairs ultimately to headquarters, when it got to headquarters, it seemed to fall into a black hole. And during that day, there was virtually no -- until you made the decision after all of the crashes to lock-down everybody, which was very decisive and very effectively carried -- up to that point, it was a black hole. There was no notification of multiple hijackings, which witnesses said was because they had reported and asked for it up to headquarters, nothing came out. There was no notification of the military on 93. There was no direct communication with NORAD from headquarters, even though headquarters had centralized the decision-making. The communications with NMCC, which you have said was where the focus of headquarters was, was never established during the critical period. There was never any attention paid to the secure communications because you had STU-2 in -- or the administrator had a STU-2, and NMCC and everybody else had STU-3. It had never been upgraded. Nobody took the common sense provision, since they couldn't get through, to pick up the telephone or go down into the pay phone and call the NMCC while all this was going on.

So, I'm not blaming this on you personally. You were only the acting deputy. But I'd like your view now, since you're no longer there. Can you tell us that these fairly gross shortcomings in the management of the headquarters of FAA have been corrected?

MR. BELGER: Yes, they have. I'd like to expand.

First of all, on that day, just a couple of thoughts in terms of your remarks. As I said before, the National Military Command Center was entered into the hijacking at 9:20 in the morning. That net's there for everybody to listen, real-time, to hear what's going on. So -- I mean, that's just a fact.

Secondly, I don't know about the efforts that the NMCC made to make secure communication calls with the FAA. The FAA has the latest communication capability. I don't know who they called, but our intelligence folks were right there next to the operations center, and they have the latest equipment. So, I'm frustrated by that because I just don't know who they called or what that -- what that specific situation was.

...

MR. KERREY: Well, first of all let me say I think this is a situation, very much like Secretary Lehman just said, where at the local level it was -- people responded with great heroism and took action that was appropriate under the circumstances, way beyond what most of us would have been able to do, including being able to get 4,500 airplanes out of the air without a single incident. So, New York, Boston are clearly the ones that we've looked at. You guys did a fabulous job. But I'm with Secretary Lehman, Mr. Belger, and I think headquarters blew it. And I appreciate that Garvey, is the one in responsibility, but as I understand it, she delegated significant authority to you as a 30-year career professional. So, I'm going to turn my attention to you.

If I'm -- if you want to disabuse me of that notion in answering the first question -- the first question is, following up on Senator Gorton, had to do with this conversation that occurred, the teleconference that NMCC initiated. How in God's name could you put somebody on the telephone who joined the call with no familiarity or responsibility for hijack situations, had no access to decision- makers, and had none of the information available to senior FAA officials at that time? What the hell is going on that you would do such a thing? And don't blame that on -- (inaudible) -- who did that? Who put somebody on the phone that was not able to participate, was not able to tell, at a very late date, I must -- time, I must say -- the military what was going on?

MR. BELGER: I don't know. I don't know, as I said, who the NMCC tried to call. What I will say --

MR. KERREY: No, no. Do you -- no, that's not the question. Somebody joined the call, the NMCC call --

MR. BELGER: Who --

MR. KERREY: -- No, an FAA representative joined the call who knew nothing, had no responsibility for hijack situations, had no access to decision-makers, and none of the information available to senior FAA officials.

MR. BELGER: It is my understanding that that was an NMCC call that they are referring to.

MR. KERREY: Yes. But why did you put somebody on the phone that knew nothing?

MR. BELGER: I didn't put anybody on that phone --

MR. KERREY: Well, who did?

MR. BELGER: I don't know. That's what I said, sir.

MR. KERREY: Well --

MR. BELGER: Now, I will tell you, though, let's -- this will be -- this is very, very important, in response to your question -- the NMC -- and this is an assumption on my part, I'll say that right up front, because I said earlier I did not specifically ask this question, one of the millions of questions I wish I would have asked that morning but I didn't -- at 9:20, the NMCC was called. They were added to this open communication net. In my 30 years of history, there was always somebody listening to that net.

MR. KERREY: Well --

MR. BELGER: Real-time information.

MR. KERREY: Let me move --

MR. BELGER: That was the purpose of it.

MR. KERREY: Let me move to my second one, then, Mr. Belger. Now, I'm not going to have very many to get -- I mean, I could -- I've got a long list here that I could do, and I'm not going to get them in five minutes. Let's talk about 93. Wheels up at 8:42. At 9:28, Cleveland confirms a hijack. You know it at 9:34. Now we have this conversation at 9:49, 13 minutes afterwards, where Cleveland initially had said, "Are you going to put planes in the air? And somebody at headquarters should do something about it." They called back. And I presume you've seen the Staff Statement where they replay the conversation.

Command Center, "We want to think about scrambling aircraft." Command Center says -- FAA headquarters says, "Oh, God, I don't know." Command Center, "That's a decision somebody's going to have to make in the next 10 minutes." FAA headquarters, "You know, everybody just left the room."

I mean, do we have this out of context? I mean, there was no information delivered to the military that a plane was coming into Washington D.C. And again, thank God the passengers on 93 took the plane over. But a plane was headed to Washington D.C. FAA Headquarters knew it and didn't let the military know.

MR. BELGER: Well, if I can -- and I truly do not mean this to be defensive, but it is a fact -- there were military people on duty at the FAA Command Center, as Mr. Sliney said. They were participating in what was going on. There were military people in the FAA's Air Traffic Organization in a situation room. They were participating in what was going on.

To my knowledge, the NMCC was added to the conference call, the open conference call, at 9:20. By 9:45 or so, my attention was completely on getting the airplanes and the hundreds of thousands of passengers safely on the ground. There was an FAA security person running the hijack net. I had confidence that they were doing the right things.


http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/wp-dyn/A42754-2002Jan26

Flight 77 (dis?)info

Transportation Secretary Norman Y. Mineta, summoned by the White House to the bunker, was on an open line to the Federal Aviation Administration operations center, monitoring Flight 77 as it hurtled toward Washington, with radar tracks coming every seven seconds. Reports came that the plane was 50 miles out, 30 miles out, 10 miles out-until word reached the bunker that there had been an explosion at the Pentagon.


http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A10206-2004Jul23.html

Flight 93 (dis?)info

Two minutes later, at 9:28, the hijackers attacked as the plane flew above eastern Ohio. Air traffic controllers noticed the plane suddenly drop 700 feet, and over the radio they heard one of the cockpit crew call out "Mayday!" amid sounds of struggle. The radio shut off. Thirty-five seconds later, in another radio transmission, one crew member was heard shouting: "Hey! Get out of here. Get out of here. Get out of here."

At least five calls included word that passengers were discussing a revolt to retake the plane. One said they had voted on it. "At 9:57 a.m.," the commission said, "the passenger assault began."

Ending a call to the ground, one woman aboard the plane said: "Everyone's running up to first class. I've got to go. 'Bye."

When the passengers charged, the hijackers' pilot, Ziad Samir Jarrah, rolled the airplane right and left, trying to knock the attackers off balance. At 9:58, he told another hijacker to block the door. A minute later, he pitched the nose of the airplane up and down for 11 seconds. The recorder captured the sounds of continued fighting outside the cockpit, and Jarrah again dipped the airplane's nose. At 26 seconds past 10, a passenger cried out: "In the cockpit. If we don't, we'll die!"
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stickdog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-05-04 05:38 PM
Response to Original message
18. Still more (dis?)info
http://www.afa.org/magazine/Oct2004/1004sept.asp

All evidence shows “the fighters were scrambled because of the report that American 11 was heading south. ... This response to a phantom aircraft was not recounted in a single public timeline or statement” issued by DOD, the report reads.

It is impossible to know what would have happened if Flight 93 had not been brought down by its passengers. Timelines show the only fighters over Washington at Flight 93’s expected arrival time were the Langley F-16s.

“At that point in time, the Langley pilots did not know the threat they were facing ... and did not have shoot-down authorization,” the report reads.

“I reverted to the Russian threat. ... I’m thinking cruise missile threat from the sea,” explained the lead pilot from Langley that morning. He looked down to “see the Pentagon burning” and “thought the bastards snuck one by us,” he said. “No one told us anything.”


http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/5234996/

Since 9/11, the Air Force’s defense of its performance that day has rested on three basic contentions:

*That NORAD exists to protect the United States from air attacks originating abroad, not from U.S. airports.

*That post-Cold War changes in unit configurations, radar orientations and just plain old attitude diminished American air defenses.

*That no one could have imagined that civilian airliners would be hijacked and converted into, essentially, guided missiles.

For the better part of three years, that story held up, in part due to a distinct lack of scrutiny, but also because the Air Force made it exceedingly difficult for anyone without a security clearance to ask questions about that day. Repeated requests by this columnist to interview some of the F-16 pilots scrambled on 9/11 were denied on the basis of "national security." Others were unavailable, quite reasonably, because of assignment overseas to fight in the Middle East.


http://www.csindy.com/csindy/2004-07-08/cover.html

Despite having boarded her train at 5 that morning in Washington, D.C., Rosemary Dillard's linen jacket was still creaseless, her carriage professional and crisp, as she walked down the train platform at Princeton Junction, N.J., on the morning of June 4. She dared to hope that a briefing by the FBI would clarify the mystifying story of Sept. 11, 2001.

...

Why, she wanted to know, when flight controllers in Boston suspected a hijacking of American Airlines Flight 11 as early as 8:13 a.m. and were certain the plane had been overtaken by hostile Middle Eastern men by 8:21, didn't either her company or the FAA (Federal Aviation Administration) notify her to warn the crew of American Airlines Flight 77 of the terrorist threat in the skies? Flight 77 took off at 8:20 a.m. But neither the tapes and cell-phone recordings Ms. Dillard heard that afternoon nor the PowerPoint presentation that took the families systematically through all four flights with neat timelines and bland conclusions helped her to connect the dots. She fled the hearing early, deeply upset.

...

Despite all the high secrecy surrounding the briefing, a half-dozen different family members were so horrified by voice evidence of the airlines' disregard for the fate of their pilots, crew and passengers that they found ways to reveal some of what they heard on those tapes, and also what they felt. To them, the tapes appeared to show that the first instinct of American and United Airlines, as management learned of the gathering horror aboard their passenger planes on Sept. 11, was to cover up. The instinct to hold back information, some of the families believe, may also have contributed to the doom of a fourth flight, United Flight 93. The United dispatcher was told by his superiors: Don't tell pilots why we want them to land.

...

A Freedom of Information Act request has confirmed that the FAA sent a dozen warnings to the airlines between May and September of 2001. Those 35 pages of alerts are being exempted from public disclosure by a federal statute that covers "information that would be detrimental to the security of transportation if disclosed."

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