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noise Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-19-09 07:09 PM
Original message
The incompetence talking point
For years we have heard that the 9/11 Commission covered up incompetence. Yet the explanation for every unconnected dot and ignored warning is incompetence. If the incompetence is out in the open then what sense does it make to presume the classified aspects of 9/11 are classified to hide more incompetence?

A reasonable person should rightly conclude that something worse than incompetence explains the continuing coverup.

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sofa king Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-19-09 09:50 PM
Response to Original message
1. I spent a long time working with standards of evidence.
Edited on Thu Feb-19-09 09:56 PM by sofa king
I did a lot of research, trying to get overlooked Indian tribes federally recognized. The feds realized that the easiest way to prevent a tribe from being recognized was to hide and/or destroy historical documents, so they adopted a standard of evidence called "reasonable likelihood."

There are many standards of evidence: "beyond a shadow of a doubt" theoretically means 100% certainty; "preponderance of evidence" usually means 51% certainty. Astronomers have their own standards based entirely on passive observation, while most other scientific disciplines rely heavily on hypothesis confirmed by experiment.

"Reasonable likelihood," on the other hand, deals with evidence which has been tainted, destroyed, or otherwise compromised, often intentionally. It is sometimes also weighted in favor of the side getting screwed--all ties go to the Indians, in my old line of work.

I spent years fighting Connecticut Attorney General Richard Blumenthal, who is sure to become DU's best boy when he tries to unseat Joe Lieberman. The state of Connecticut is still absurdly racist, doesn't like Indians and sure as hell won't tolerate the existence of more tribes in the state. So they fought, and won.

Blumenthal's approach was multifold, but two of the approaches he took are worthy of comparison to 9/11.

First, any documents which could conceivably help the cases of petitioning tribes were quietly removed from the Connecticut Archives so that researchers like me couldn't use them, and when it came time to submit those documents for review (after most of our arguments were made) they were remarkably thin. On at least one occasion, I found copies of important documents in our file which the state claims never to have seen.

This is exactly the same tactic the federal government used when they slapped "Classified" labels on anything which might possibly tell investigators what happened, while no doubt also destroying evidence and hiding other documents far away where they will never be seen while they are relevant.

Second, they fought bitterly against the "reasonable likelihood" standard itself, trying hard to impose a "preponderance of evidence" standard instead, and eventually succeeding in throwing some of the cases into the courts, where those more stringent standards will be applied. They were fighting the standard while they were applying the exact same practices which required institution of that standard in the first place. There are plenty of goalpost-movers right here who do the same thing, every day.

The Bush Administration used a similar tactic to protect themselves, deftly arguing in favor of incompetence. If they were truly incompetent, they would have fucked that up, too. Instead, they sold it everywhere, expertly, while simultaneously pushing a legislative and executive agenda that must have taken years of planning to formulate, yet Jack Abramoff was shopping a draft Homeland Security bill around Washington within a few weeks of the attacks.

Neither of those strategies worked for Connecticut, and two tribes were in fact recognized by the Office of Federal Acknowledgment, in part because the state's devious actions were considered evidence in favor of the existence of the tribes--why fight so hard to cover something up if there's nothing to cover? States don't generally commit crimes unless there's something in it for them, and in this case, it's two less casinos.

So, someone called Haley Barbour and his lobbying firm, who cozied up to the gangsters in the White House, and they cooked up a bullshit decision on appeal which forced the cases into the courts, where the tribes will spend years and then eventually lose. Their land will be stolen from them, and they will be de-tribalized.

The point of all this is that when you see an operation like stacking the 9/11 Commission with "reliable men," the safe bet--especially when your children and your freedom rely upon it--is that the bastards are guilty as hell. You can't "prove" it, because the people who want to fuck you up control the evidence and don't wish you to prove it, except by taking note of who benefits from the crime.

I think there is a reasonable likelihood that elements of the federal government were well aware of the impending attacks of 9/11, stepped out of the way, and then busted their asses to cover it up so that their complicity and their plans would never be revealed to the extent that they could be punished for it. I can't prove that, because they deliberately acted exactly as one would expect complicit criminals to act. But I can use those actions as evidence of criminal behavior, and so I do.
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noise Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-19-09 11:05 PM
Response to Reply #1
6. It's remarkable how such conduct isn't considered bad faith
Edited on Thu Feb-19-09 11:10 PM by noise
by most of the public. Incompetence only makes sense if the publicly stated goals are the same as the private goals. The notion that the agenda might be different (and much more sinister) behind closed doors isn't acceptable discussion. The motives of the military/intel/political/media communities aren't up for review. They should be.
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JackRiddler Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-20-09 01:29 AM
Response to Reply #1
7. Nice little essay there, sofa king! Deserves its own rec and...
now you've put it here, I wonder if you would mind seeing it republished? Your considerations are both obvious and compelling and yet very seldom stated. Assuming you're fine with seeing this posted around, you can also send me a preferred author name. Thank you.
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sofa king Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-20-09 02:28 PM
Response to Reply #7
15. Sure, Jack. Use it any way you like it.
If you want me to sit down and actually think about it, cite it, and otherwise make it suitable for publication somewhere I'll be happy to do it. It would take me a while to put it all together.

In the meantime, if you want to shop it around under my stage-name here, that's fine too.
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Bryan Sacks Donating Member (732 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-20-09 08:13 AM
Response to Reply #1
10. It's rarely been said better than that, sofa king. thanks. n/t
Edited on Fri Feb-20-09 08:13 AM by Bryan Sacks
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sofa king Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-19-09 09:50 PM
Response to Original message
2. Dupe
Edited on Thu Feb-19-09 09:50 PM by sofa king
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hack89 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-19-09 09:53 PM
Response to Original message
3. Continuing coverup may be too strong a statement
You are implying an active cover up. It is more likely that no one cares anymore.
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noise Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-19-09 10:56 PM
Response to Reply #3
4. I've looked at the MFR's
on the NARA website. Over seven years after 9/11 and the intel agencies are still locking down the documents. So they sure seem to care about keeping the public ignorant.
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hack89 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-20-09 07:37 AM
Response to Reply #4
9. Do they routinely release such documents?
can you give examples in the past where they were more forthcoming? What you see as an active cover up may simply be bureaucratize inertia - they are by habit secretive organizations and they are treating 911 documents like they treat all intelligence documents.

I do know from experience that such organizations are set up such that it is much easier to say no than to say yes.
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Bryan Sacks Donating Member (732 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-20-09 08:25 AM
Response to Reply #9
11. Yes, Hack, they do. Why don't you take it from fellow OCTer Max Holland?
Just asking questions, right?

http://hnn.us/roundup/entries/17687.html

.. Traditionally ... final reports of important commission have been supplemented by publication of the public and private hearings, staff reports and the actual documents used to compile the findings. Take a look at the shelf space occupied by some major probes since 1945: these include the 1946 congressional inquiry into the Pearl Harbor attack (40 volumes); the 1964 Warren Commission investigation of President Kennedy's assassination (27); and the 1975-76 Church Committee investigation of the intelligence agencies (15).

By contrast, the 9/11 Commission climaxed in the publication of a single, 567-page volume—without an index. The relative poverty of this effort at the culmination of a twenty-month, $14 million investigation reflects a downward trend in the government's obligation to disseminate information to the public.


The 9/11 Commission's first departure from customary practice was its decision not to use the GPO. . .The 9/11 Commission's second departure from long-standing tradition is possibly even more troubling. It concerned how the panel chose to disseminate other aspects of its inquiry, ranging from its staff reports to its public hearings. Historically, only the GPO could be expected to publish the entire opus of an investigative body at anything approaching an affordable price to the public. Of greater significance, GPO publication also assured inclusion in the permanent holdings of the 1,250 institutions that participate in the Federal Depository Library Program (FDLP), an arrangement between research libraries and the federal government that dates back to 1813. Every depository library, in return for free copies of GPO publications, becomes legally bound to make these authentic documents freely available to all citizens without discrimination. Depository libraries, which are scattered across the nation, are thus the bedrock upon which public access to government information has always rested.

The 9/11 Commission, however, never submitted a printing requisition to the GPO for publishing the many supplemental volumes that are in fact part of the report. The panel regarded this obligation as having been discharged when it made its staff monographs, interim reports, and public hearings available on the Internet.


Comparable investigations have made available at least some portion of the raw information upon which the respective reports were erected, even at the risk of challenging the very conclusions a particular report might have drawn. The Warren Commission, for example, decided it was far better to present the entirety of the evidence in all its rich complexity than be charged with hiding information. Other, comparable panels have weighed the evidentiary part of their responsibility differently, but in no instance was a final report released without publication of some portion of the primary documents accumulated during the investigation. This is the only method by which the public can assess the accumulated evidence and judge the soundness of the investigation itself.

The overwhelming majority of records cited in the 9/11 Report are not only unpublished—worse yet, by the commissioners' collective hand they are closed to the public until at least January 2009.


January 2009 has come and gone with the majority of the material still under lock and key.
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hack89 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-20-09 04:52 PM
Response to Reply #11
16. Then lets hope things change with Obama in the WH
I have always maintained that the 911 CR was a political white wash - I suspect you and I agree on that. I just think you will be very disappointed if there ever is another investigation.
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eomer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-19-09 11:02 PM
Response to Original message
5. There is a pattern here.
They used the incompetence excuse with an accompanying coverup many times and we know in other cases that in fact it was not just incompetence that was being hidden but rather malfeasance.

For example, the "mistake" they made about WMD in Iraq -- it was not a mistake but rather an intentional fabrication. A claim of incompetence and a coverup, and what they were covering up was that it was a willful act, not a mistake.

The firing of US Attorneys is another example. They claimed it was just a very sloppy operation and they went to extreme measures to cover up the facts. But quite obviously what they were covering up in their "can't recall" answers and their dissembling was that it was not incompetence but rather criminal malfeasance.

Who here believes that the pallets of cash lost in Iraq was incompetence? Or the trillions of dollars improperly delivered to contractors through "incompetence"? They coverup the facts of these cases in order to claim incompetence, when it's pretty apparent that someone meant for the money to go wherever it went.

The Katrina recovery is another example of feigned incompetence covering up a purposeful evil agenda.

This same M.O. can be seen over and over in the Bush mal-administration -- they are a one trick pony. After seeing them use this ploy so many times, we'd have to be pretty dense not to have similar suspicions about 911. You can easily see how they benefited. They went to extreme measures to coverup. And they expect me to buy their claims of incompetence? Really? How many times do they have to get caught in the same trick before we get wise to it?

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mrgerbik Donating Member (652 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-23-09 02:35 AM
Response to Reply #5
19. well put
even that shit-awful movie "W" puts a warm, smiley spin on the incompetence idea - like we're supposed to watch that garbage and think "ya... hes just human after all.... we all make mistakes, right?".
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rollingrock Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-20-09 03:57 AM
Response to Original message
8. On the contrary
Edited on Fri Feb-20-09 04:02 AM by rollingrock
Darth Cheney and company have been nothing but highly competent and ruthlessly efficient in meeting virtually all of their goals, as outlined in the PNAC documents.

If anyone thinks the disaster of the last 8 years was merely due to incompetence, then they are easily fooled. These are the same folks who probably thought that monkeyboy was actually running the show, when iin reality he was nothing more then a figurehead who pretended to strut around like a Texas cowboy for PR purposes. Bush held no real power independent of his handlers, namely Dick Cheney. The general public, of course, pretty much ate it up hook line and sinker. For them, Bush 'obviously' failed to stop 9/11 because he's such a bumbling moran!

And I just don't buy the idea of LIHOP at all because if it was LIHOP, the buildings never would have fell at all (especially not in the manner of a CD). The buildings would still be standing after the plane impacts, if it was simply LIHOP. Therefore, 9/11 was orchestrated and directed by Cheney and he made it happen on purpose.
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Bryan Sacks Donating Member (732 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-20-09 09:01 AM
Response to Reply #8
12. not following your logic
Your post is full of rhetoric, and you're assuming that because the buildings fell "in the manner of a CD" that they were in fact demolished by pre-planted explosives. This is hardly proven, to say the least.

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rollingrock Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-20-09 01:04 PM
Response to Reply #12
14. Is there any proof they were brought down by fire?

No, there is not.
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hack89 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-21-09 08:20 AM
Response to Reply #14
17. Then tell me how it was done
I have been waiting 7 years for the truth movement to put forward a detail theory on how the WTC CD was executed. Why do you think that is? We keep hearing how it was obviously CD yet the conversation never seems to advance beyond that?


You are a typical truther in that you think that if you can poke a hole or two in the OCT than it "proves" CD. I hope you can see the flaw in that logic.
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mrgerbik Donating Member (652 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-23-09 02:45 AM
Response to Reply #17
20. poking holes in the OCT theory might cause gravity to pancake collapse it nt
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hack89 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-23-09 06:45 AM
Response to Reply #20
21. Good luck with that. nt
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jakeXT Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-22-09 08:28 AM
Response to Reply #8
18. You are forgetting that Cheney is just someone else's monkey


And there is evidence for CD, it's not just circumstantial evidence by witnesses in the buildings hearing explosions.


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CJCRANE Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-23-09 09:00 AM
Response to Reply #8
22. Yes
they needed the twin towers to be completely destroyed to provide the "searing, molding event" needed to enact their agenda (as postulated in Zelikow's article about catastrophic terrorism).
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leftofthedial Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-20-09 12:27 PM
Response to Original message
13. Commissions are the mechanism the federal government uses to cover up
crimes so outrageous that their exposure would threaten the status quo.

That's why the Congress has Commissions.
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noise Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-24-09 11:13 PM
Response to Reply #13
24. It's remarkable how it works
Especially the way dissent against such shams is treated. Who knew that going along with a coverup was the height of patriotism.

It was like a Hollywood production instead of an investigation. Everything that didn't fit the proper narrative wound up on the cutting room floor.
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CJCRANE Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-23-09 09:10 AM
Response to Original message
23. I call it the "lucky accident" theory
Edited on Mon Feb-23-09 09:10 AM by CJCRANE
because their so-called incompetence resulted in them getting nearly everything they ever wanted.

ed: sp
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