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seemslikeadream Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-26-09 10:01 PM
Original message
Anthrax spores don't match dead researcher's samples
Edited on Thu Feb-26-09 10:05 PM by seemslikeadream
http://rawstory.com/news/2008/Anthrax_spores_dont_match_dead_researchers_0226.html


Anthrax spores don't match dead researcher's samples
John Byrne
Published: Thursday February 26, 2009

Poisonous anthrax that killed five Americans in the weeks after the Sept. 11, 2001 terror attacks doesn't match bacteria from a flask linked to Bruce Ivins, the researcher who committed suicide after being implicated by the Federal Bureau of Investigation, a scientist said.

Spores used in the deadly mailings ``share a chemical 'fingerprint' that is not found in the flask linked to Bruce Ivins,'' wrote Roberta Kwok citing Joseph Michael, a scientist at the Sandia National Laboratories in Albuquerque, New Mexico.

Michael analyzed letters sent to the New York Post and offices of Senators Tom Daschle and Patrick Leahy, and found a distinct "chemical signature" not present in the flask known as RMR-1029, which Ivins could access in his laboratory at Fort Detrick, Maryland.

``Spores from two of those show a distinct chemical signature that includes silicon, oxygen, iron, and tin; the third letter had silicon, oxygen, iron and possibly also tin,'' Kwok wrote. ``Bacteria from Ivins' RMR-1029 flask did not contain any of those four elements.''




http://www.dissidentvoice.org/2009/02/new-york-times-complicit-in-fbi-anthrax-coverup/

New York Times Complicit in FBI Anthrax Coverup
by Sheila Casey / February 26th, 2009

Back in 2001, just months after the anthrax attacks that killed five people, several articles came out in mainstream newspapers that pointed clearly to the CIA and Army as the most likely sources of the weaponized anthrax. Articles in The Baltimore Sun, Miami Herald, Washington Post and New York Times laid out the facts that incriminated Battelle Memorial Labs in West Jefferson, Ohio, and the Army’s lab at the Dugway Proving Grounds in Utah as the only logical sources for the anthrax. These facts, as reported in 2001, include:

1. For over a decade, Army scientists at Dugway have been making weapons-grade anthrax that is “virtually identical” to the anthrax used in the attacks.

2. The anthrax used in the 2001 attacks was extremely concentrated, with a trillion spores per gram. The Dugway anthrax had a similar concentration.

3. The FBI was increasingly focused on US government bioweapons research programs as the source of the deadly anthrax.

4. Both the lab in Utah and the lab in Ohio received anthrax samples from the United States Army Medical Research Institute for Infectious Diseases (USAMRIID) at Fort Detrick, although USAMRIID deals only with wet anthrax and ships it wet.

5. The investigation was focused on the Dugway anthrax, and Dugway was described as the only facility that was known to be weaponizing anthrax.

6. One FBI official said that the CIA’s anthrax was “the best lead we have at this point.”

7. Army officials said that Fort Detrick did not have the equipment for weaponizing anthrax.

The FBI has never explained what became of this initial focus on the labs in Utah and Ohio. Instead, after the death of Fort Detrick anthrax researcher Bruce Ivins in July 2008, the FBI attempted to make the case that Ivins was the murderer and all other suspects had been cleared of suspicion.

Since Ivins’ death, the media have, with very few exceptions, passively swallowed the line dispensed by the FBI, and have acted as little more than stenographers in parroting the hollow arguments presented by the FBI that Ivins is guilty.

On December 12, 2001, The Baltimore Sun published a seminal article by Scott Shane that clearly laid out just how strong the evidence was against the Dugway Proving Ground in Utah. Subtitled “Organisms made at a military laboratory in Utah are genetically identical to those mailed to members of Congress,” Shane’s article also includes this eyebrow-raising line: “Scientists familiar with the anthrax program at Dugway described it to The Sun on the condition that they not be named.”





http://emptywheel.firedoglake.com/2009/02/26/hey-fbi-who-put-the-tin-in-your-anthrax/


By: emptywheel Thursday February 26, 2009 5:18 am

Last we heard from the FBI's not-so-smoking gun in the anthrax case, USAMRIID admitted that they had no idea what kind of flasks of anthrax and other microbes its scientists had hidden around their labs, basically shredding the FBI's claim that the anthrax used in the attacks on Congress and the Press could only have come from Bruce Ivins' flask.

Now, we learn that the supposedly exact match between Ivins' anthrax and that used in the attacks was not so close. (h/t fatster)

At a biodefence meeting on 24 February, Joseph Michael, a materials scientist at Sandia National Laboratories in Albuquerque, New Mexico, presented analyses of three letters sent to the New York Post and to the offices of Senators Tom Daschle and Patrick Leahy. Spores from two of those show a distinct chemical signature that includes silicon, oxygen, iron, and tin; the third letter had silicon, oxygen, iron and possibly also tin, says Michael. Bacteria from Ivins' RMR-1029 flask did not contain any of those four elements.

Two cultures of the same anthrax strain grown using similar processes — one from Ivins' lab, the other from a US Army facility in Utah — showed the silicon-oxygen signature but did not contain tin or iron. Michael presented the analyses at the American Society for Microbiology's Biodefense and Emerging Diseases Research Meeting in Baltimore, Maryland.

The chemical mismatch doesn't necessarily mean that deadly spores used in the attacks did not originate from Ivins' RMR-1029 flask, says Jason Bannan, a microbiologist and forensic examiner at the FBI's Chemical Biological Sciences Unit in Quantico, Virginia. The RMR-1029 culture was created in 1997, and the mailed spores could have been taken out of that flask and grown under different conditions, resulting in varying chemical contents. "It doesn't surprise me that it would be different," he says.

The data suggest that spores for the three letters were grown using the same process, says Michael. It is not clear how tin and iron made their way into the culture, he says. Bannan suggests that the growth medium may have contained iron and tin may have come from a water source.
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procopia Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-01-09 09:39 PM
Response to Original message
1. They can't blame this one on Islamic terrorists--
Edited on Sun Mar-01-09 09:40 PM by procopia
although they tried--so they simply ignore it. Why doesn't anyone care about about these perpetrators who were far more threatening to our country than Saddam Hussein?
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reinvestigate911 Donating Member (548 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-02-09 01:01 AM
Response to Reply #1
2. none of the DU regulars will touch this story in connection to alternate 9/11 theories....
Edited on Mon Mar-02-09 01:20 AM by reinvestigate911
anyone care to venture a guess as to why that is?

because it's the http://georgewashington2.blogspot.com/2008/08/government-framed-arabs-for-anthrax.html">elephant in the room. if 9/11 and the anthrax attacks are related, and one of these attacks is so obviously an http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YdamOzrfZI0">inside job, is not the probability that the other is also an inside job increased http://blog.foreignpolicy.com/posts/2008/08/06/anthrax_mailer_began_work_before_911">merely by association? remember: means, motive, opportunity...

when placed in the context of 9/11 -- that is, when one considers http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2001_anthrax_attacks#Timeline">the time line, the http://archive.salon.com/politics/feature/2001/11/21/anthrax/index.html">targets of the attack, and "http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Anthraxnote2.jpg#file">the message" that these letters delivered to their http://www.bradblog.com/?p=6245">targets -- it becomes http://www.nytimes.com/2008/09/18/washington/18anthrax.html?ref=us">clear that the two attacks are http://thinkprogress.org/2008/08/01/mccain-anthrax-iraq/">inexorably connected; they are obviously http://www.salon.com/opinion/greenwald/2008/08/01/anthrax/">linked.

ask yourself: who benefits?

i feel sorry for those who fail to understand this obvious reality. you cannot live in denial of these truths forever.
the only way that these attacks are effective is that they are capable of creating terror. if the truth of 9/11 (and the anthrax attacks) were exposed, we would deplete these monsters of one of their greatest weapons: fear. these attacks only work on the uninformed.

you who sit in this forum day after day arguing against your own self-interests do an immense disservice to your families, your loved ones, and this country. god help us all.

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Bolo Boffin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-02-09 01:19 AM
Response to Reply #2
3. If you do a quick search of these forums, you'll find
that I have great questions about the identification of Ivins as the anthrax mailer.

So keep your fucking scolding to yourself.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-02-09 01:23 AM
Response to Reply #3
4. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
Bolo Boffin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-02-09 01:39 AM
Response to Reply #4
5. Piety?? ME????
I'm not the jackass in here waxing hypocritically about the terrible damage being caused to God, country, and Mom's apple pie. Get the fuck over yourself!
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reinvestigate911 Donating Member (548 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-02-09 01:43 AM
Response to Reply #5
6. you make a great case to your beloved "disinterested reader" with all the arm-waving.
do you care to actually debate the content of the post when you're finished with your little tantrum?
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Bolo Boffin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-02-09 01:52 AM
Response to Reply #6
7. Wake me when you decide to leave the realm of Subjunctive Land.
Seriously. "Oh, boy, if there was an elephant in this room, you guys wouldn't be looking at it. You make your mamas ashamed!"
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reinvestigate911 Donating Member (548 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-02-09 01:56 AM
Response to Reply #7
8. noodle over this, genius: if we're wrong, we're simply "crazies"... but what if you're wrong?
Edited on Mon Mar-02-09 01:59 AM by reinvestigate911
come back when you want to discuss the post...
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seemslikeadream Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-02-09 02:59 AM
Response to Reply #8
10. ...
Edited on Mon Mar-02-09 03:18 AM by seemslikeadream
:hi:

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Bolo Boffin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-02-09 10:45 AM
Response to Reply #8
13. Nobody here called you or your compatriots "crazies" so stop pretending that we did
I've never seen a group of people so ready, so desperate to be insulted as the CT advocates.
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reinvestigate911 Donating Member (548 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-02-09 11:21 AM
Response to Reply #13
15. the question still stands. if we're wrong, what's lost but a bunch of hours debating online?
Edited on Mon Mar-02-09 11:24 AM by reinvestigate911
but what if you're wrong?

because you can't seem to answer this (maybe you're incapable of considering the possibility?) then let me oblige: if you're wrong then you've spent your time apologizing for the most criminal administration in history.

ps: http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=125x235453#235675">your arrogance is astonishing considering the obvious linkages between 9/11 and the anthrax attacks -- how can you be so sure when it's so glaringly obvious that there was government complicity in the anthrax attacks?
pss: how many "coincidences" can you reconcile in your version of reality?
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Bolo Boffin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-02-09 11:37 AM
Response to Reply #15
16. And if we're all just plugged into the Matrix, we're all screwed anyway
Edited on Mon Mar-02-09 11:38 AM by Bolo Boffin
And if we all had ponies, we'd go for a ride!

And if you ever got out of the Land of If and Ad Hominem, you might start presenting actual evidence instead of silly speculation about what might be.
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reinvestigate911 Donating Member (548 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-02-09 11:46 AM
Response to Reply #16
18. ah yes "evidence please"... i should have known...
Edited on Mon Mar-02-09 12:29 PM by reinvestigate911
all the while completely disregarding the content of my post... how long can you ignore the obvious connection?
so it's akin to science fiction ... it's just like "the matrix" ... we're not crazies, just dreamers, right?

the anthrax attack was most certainly http://blog.foreignpolicy.com/posts/2008/08/06/anthrax_mailer_began_work_before_911">planned in advance and blatantly http://georgewashington2.blogspot.com/2008/08/government-framed-arabs-for-anthrax.html">perpetrated by insiders and yet you attempt to cleave the two apart and dismiss government complicity with a simple request for evidence?

it's an impressive dance routine one must perform in order to acknowledge one and pooh-pooh the other.
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Bolo Boffin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-02-09 11:48 AM
Response to Reply #18
19. :eyes: n/t
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reinvestigate911 Donating Member (548 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-02-09 12:23 PM
Response to Reply #19
20. your stalling indicates collossal fail... are they related or not?
Edited on Mon Mar-02-09 12:31 PM by reinvestigate911
do you deny the connection between 9/11 and the anthrax attacks?

and what's with the "we're all screwed anyway"?
i thought you were an obama supporter... where's the hope in that?
or am i confusing the sentiment for that brand of DU sarcasm which you seem so impressed with?
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reinvestigate911 Donating Member (548 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-02-09 01:15 PM
Response to Reply #19
23. thanks for proving my point.
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reinvestigate911 Donating Member (548 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-02-09 12:34 PM
Response to Reply #7
22. are you awake yet?
just asking
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Bolo Boffin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-02-09 02:15 PM
Response to Reply #22
25. Still in the land of the subjunctive, I see.
Less worrying about my possible state of mind, more evidence and fact-based logical arguments, please.
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reinvestigate911 Donating Member (548 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-02-09 02:46 PM
Response to Reply #25
26. is 9/11 related to the anthrax attacks?
Edited on Mon Mar-02-09 02:49 PM by reinvestigate911
you can't answer... or you can't defend the inexorable connections, foreknowledge, and evidence of complicity.


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Bolo Boffin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-02-09 03:25 PM
Response to Reply #26
27. I don't know. I think it is, indirectly.
Whoever did it knew that the 9/11 attacks had just happened and that he/she/they would get the most bang for their buck.

But I've seen no evidence whatsoever that the anthrax mailer/s had any connection with the 9/11 perps, Al Qaeda-funded terrorist cells under KSM's handling.
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reinvestigate911 Donating Member (548 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-02-09 04:23 PM
Response to Reply #27
28. i guess you missed the part about bruce ivins' work habits prior to 9/11
Edited on Mon Mar-02-09 04:24 PM by reinvestigate911
specificially:

The spike in his evening hours began in mid-August, almost a month before the Sept. 11 attacks, investigators said.

source: http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601087&sid=afaAShD_XC3k&refer=home

this suggests foreknowledge. at the very least it would take considerable time to prepare the disparate strains and ready these batches of weaponized anthrax for delivery through email.

additionally, foreknowledge is suggested at other points in the time line, for instance:

On the night of the Sept. 11 attacks, the White House Medical Office dispensed Cipro to staff accompanying Vice President Dick Cheney as he was secreted off to the safety of Camp David, and told them it was "a precaution," according to one person directly involved.

At that time, nobody could guess the dimensions of the terrorists' plot.


source http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/aponline/20011023/aponline201158_000.htm (emphasis added)

nobody??

bush:

"Let me put it this way," Bush said. "I'm confident that when I come to work tomorrow, I'll be safe."


and as for your rather lackluster ballet around the topic, bolo:

"The lady doth protest too much, methinks."

source: William Shakespeare (Hamlet)

forest for the trees much, dude?
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Bolo Boffin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-02-09 04:34 PM
Response to Reply #28
29. Aside from your propter hoc fallacy, do you have any evidence Ivins was in contact
with Al Qaeda?

And does your questions along this line mean that you think Ivins did it? If you don't think Ivins did it, any evidence of his actions doesn't mean squat with regard to 9/11 or the anthrax mailings.
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reinvestigate911 Donating Member (548 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-02-09 04:56 PM
Response to Reply #29
30. well that's the 64K question isn't it?
Edited on Mon Mar-02-09 05:10 PM by reinvestigate911
did al quaeda infiltrate the bio-weapons lab?
was bruce ivins acting alone?

does 2 + 2 = 5?

me personally? i think ivins was the new oswald for the anthrax letters... considering how there was no match for the handwriting on the letters, no match for DNA on the envelope, and no match for the exact strain of anthrax that was sent out... one can only draw one conclusion: it must've been good old al quaeda!

glad we solved that one!
i'm so relieved that the people who are paid to protect us can do no harm... aren't you?

if you google for "dead microbiologists post 9/11" you'll find at least 14 microbiologists from all over the world who died under mysterious circumstances. one guy accidentally locks himself in an airlock; there was a murder suicide, taking out two microbiologists; a few actual murders; and an alleged suicide (by jumping) by a guy who had recently bought tickets for himself and a family member to tour graceland... each of these reported by the MSM.

spy novels aren't this good.


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Bolo Boffin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-02-09 05:06 PM
Response to Reply #30
31. So why do you think Ivins actions before 9/11 could have any bearing on
whether 9/11 and the anthrax mailing were connected?

Are you trying to make sense or is this just more silly games from you?
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reinvestigate911 Donating Member (548 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-02-09 05:27 PM
Response to Reply #31
32. gee, i dunno... why did oswald meet with david atlee phillips or maurice bishop?
of course they're connected.
only an idiot would be dissuaded by the absurd request for "EVIDANTS PLX!"

silly games? i'm not the apologist here, my dear patriot.
do you typically have trouble connecting the dots, or is your entire worldview so http://www.boston.com/news/nation/washington/articles/2008/08/13/a_lone_anthrax_mailer_skeptics_question_fbi_case/">inexplicably dissonant?
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noise Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-02-09 02:08 AM
Response to Reply #2
9. Possible explanations for the why
Authoritarianism. The conduct of the leaders shouldn't be questioned. They may be incompetent, make mistakes and attempt to cover up this conduct but in no way should one suggest there are more sinister motives at work.

Buying into the shared sense of nationalism (though the political/media establishment seems to hold the public in contempt).

Unwillingness to question the binary worldview (US government vs. external enemies).

Difficulty believing that US institutions could be so corrupt and/or willing to tolerate corruption.

Too little definitive information making it difficult to reach uncomfortable conclusions.

Fear of being branded an unpatriotic conspiracy nut.

Confused by the MO. For example, concealment of complicity doesn't seem to be the primary concern. This goes against common understanding of the criminal MO.
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reinvestigate911 Donating Member (548 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-02-09 07:43 AM
Response to Reply #9
11. the disinterested reader would agree: that's one fat-ass elephant
Edited on Mon Mar-02-09 07:47 AM by reinvestigate911
and it's a real disappointment that the so-called "debunker" faction here at DU can't answer for themselves.
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Bolo Boffin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-02-09 10:43 AM
Response to Reply #9
12. You missed one possible explanation.
We're right.
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seemslikeadream Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-02-09 10:51 AM
Response to Reply #12
14. no you are not
Edited on Mon Mar-02-09 10:51 AM by seemslikeadream
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Bolo Boffin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-02-09 11:39 AM
Response to Reply #14
17. Do you understand that Susan Lindauer has nothing to do with the anthrax case?
I hope that you do. I fear you do not.
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seemslikeadream Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-02-09 12:29 PM
Response to Reply #17
21. What does the anthrax case and the war in Iraq have in common?
The NYT
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Bolo Boffin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-02-09 02:11 PM
Response to Reply #21
24. What does the price of gold and blood libel have in common?
SLAD?
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defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-25-09 02:32 AM
Response to Original message
33. k i c k
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LARED Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-25-09 04:35 AM
Response to Original message
34. Another CT quote mining expedition gone bad.
Edited on Wed Mar-25-09 04:35 AM by LARED
The chemical mismatch doesn’t necessarily mean that deadly spores used in the attacks did not originate from Ivins’ RMR-1029 flask, says Jason Bannan, a microbiologist and forensic examiner at the FBI’s Chemical Biological Sciences Unit in Quantico, Virginia. The RMR-1029 culture was created in 1997, and the mailed spores could have been taken out of that flask and grown under different conditions, resulting in varying chemical contents. “It doesn’t surprise me that it would be different,” he says.

http://qwstnevrythg.com/archives/6793
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