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LilKim Donating Member (355 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-26-04 01:16 PM
Original message
New Analysis Proves Oswald Acted Alone
Neutron Activation Analyses Proves Oswald Acted Alone In JFK Assassination

&91;...&93;
Relying on science, in particular neutron activation analyses and ballistic evidence, instead of speculation, Rahn, a retired oceanographer and atmospheric chemist, and Larry Sturdivan, a retired wound ballistics specialist at the Army’s Aberdeen Proving Ground in Maryland, argue that the president and Texas Governor John Connally were hit by two and only two bullets, both fired from Lee Harvey Oswald’s rifle. They base their results on a review of ballistic and chemical analysis of the recovered bullet fragments. Furthermore, they prove statistically that the odds of additional successful gunmen are 2 to 3 percent at best and one in a million at worst. Results of their research were published in this month’s issue of the Journal of Radioanalytical and Nuclear Chemistry.

&91;...&93;
Rahn and Sturdivan show that a three-hit scenario is ruled out by the neutron activation data. They further argue that Oswald’s first shot most likely missed the president’s car completely. This provides at least 4.8 seconds between the two shots that hit, making it an easy feat.

&91;...&93;
The benefits of nuclear activation analyses extend beyond limiting the hits to two bullets, by providing the only way to prove that Oswald’s rifle was fired that day, and thereby quash the rumors that it had been planted to frame Oswald. They also render the details of the headshot and back wound irrelevant. They lead to the best-documented shooting scenario to date, namely an early miss, a single bullet through both men’s bodies, and the killing hit to JFK’s head five seconds later. Most importantly, nuclear activation analyses ties much of the physical evidence together and brings Oswald much closer to the crime by proving that his rifle did it all.

So the mob, Castro, the CIA, the Russians, Vice President Lyndon Johnson or the countless other supposed conspirators aren’t the bad guys. Although society seems to need to feel that only great plots can take down great men, the two scientists argue that Oswald, alone, took his shot at history. A shot that forever changed the course of our nation and gave birth to America’s skepticism.

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2004/10/041025131255.htm
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Media_Lies_Daily Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-26-04 01:17 PM
Response to Original message
1. Bullshit. Total and utter bullshit.
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dmkinsey Donating Member (789 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-26-04 01:18 PM
Response to Reply #1
3. me too
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number6 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-29-04 07:55 PM
Response to Reply #3
52. me three
Bullshit, complete and total

more of the Oswald did it crap again ....:(
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GarySeven Donating Member (898 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-26-04 01:35 PM
Response to Reply #1
8. Sorry, but you're wrong ....
... I have studied the assassination for 30 years now and started out believing exactly as you do, but my conclusion from studying human anatomy and physiological response to gunshot wounds (not to mention service during Iraq), plus seeing tests done by Failure Analysis and other independent evaluators led me years ago to conclude that Oswald was the one and only assassin. It is possible for a flawed investigation (the Warren Report) to nevertheless come to a correct conclusion. The Warren investigators were wrong in a number of respects, particularly in the timing of the shots. But for the existence of the Zapruder film, the botched investigation would have allowed doubts like yours to continue.

Now, was Oswald acting on anyone's behest? I personally believe he was trying to impress some right wingers, but had not been hired by them. Get back to me in 30 more years and maybe - maybe - I'll have an answer for you about that one.
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Walt Starr Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-26-04 01:57 PM
Response to Reply #8
12. How the fuck can you study the autopsy data?
The autopsy data was destroyed and a phony autopsy document replaced it.
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MADem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-26-04 02:44 PM
Response to Reply #12
18. And the LCDR who did the autopsy at Bethesda
...got HIT BY A BUS.

Talk about getting rid of pesky witnesses!
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GarySeven Donating Member (898 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-26-04 09:28 PM
Response to Reply #18
25. So what?
Do you believe in the list of all the people Clinton had "murdered"?

As you live longer, my friend, you will see that coincidence is the only constant in the universe -- if you have a homo sapiens sapiens brain that is conditioned over centuries to look for patterns.
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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-29-04 10:31 AM
Response to Reply #25
41. actually
there is no such thing as "coincidence." There certainly is such a thing as patterns, especially important for sake of conversation in relationship to human behavior.

Using your line of thinking when you bring up the Clinton business, one would conclude that JFK must have committed suicide. I'd think that is about as believable as the "magic bullet" theory.
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GarySeven Donating Member (898 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-26-04 09:26 PM
Response to Reply #12
24. No, the autopsy records were not destroyed.
Sorry, that's just another myth. Go to the Library of Congress and look for it, if your tinfoil hat doesn't trip off the alarm as you go in.

Look, I used to believe as you do, but a lot of the things you have heard just aren't true. I can't blame you because much of the early work was so stupidly and incompetently done. That has opened the door for a lot of pseudo-science and urban myths.
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quo Donating Member (39 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-26-04 02:24 PM
Response to Reply #8
15. Hey GarySeven - Where did you see Failure Analysis' research?
Failure Analysis Associates was contracted by the American Bar Association to develop evidence for both sides of a
mock trial they put on concerning the guilt or innocence of Lee Harvey Oswald.
Gerald Posner got his hands on FAA's prosecution evidence
and wrote a book (titled "Case Closed") with that data and
disregarded the data that proved Oswald innocent.
His book is one-sided and pathetic attempt to distort the truth.
(kinda like Fox news' "fair and balanced" news).

I've never seen the ABA's defense evidence.
I too want to research this fairly and unbiased.
Please tell me where you've seen that evidence developed by FAA that proves Oswald's innocence.
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GarySeven Donating Member (898 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-26-04 09:23 PM
Response to Reply #15
23. It's been used on a couple of documentaries.
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quo Donating Member (39 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-26-04 11:26 PM
Response to Reply #23
28. "documentaries"? or did you just read Posner's book?
and repeat it as your fair and balanced knowledge?

The defense data from FAA has never been published.
The FAA stuff from Posner has been used in a number
of documentaries to support the one-sided argument
of the Warren Report.

Well, keep studying. Start with "Case Open" by Harold Weisberg.
Harold was used as a source by Posner as well as FAA, and Posner
altered what both of them said.

Your "30 years of studying" may go out the window when you read
the Affidavit by the CEO of Failure Analysis Associates
by Roger L. McCarthy (Affidavit of Roger L. McCarthy)
he says in part:

"Subsequent to our presentation one Gerald Posner contacted
Dr. Robert Piziali, the leader of the prosecution team, and
requested copies of the prosecution material, but not defense
material, which we provided. Eventually Random House published
a book by Mr. Posner entitled Case Closed.
While Mr. Posner acknowledges in the book the material from
Failure Analysis Associates he does not mention or acknowledge
the ABA, or mention or acknowledge that there was additional
material prepared by FAA for the defense.
Incredibly, Mr. Posner makes no mention of the fact that their
mock jury that heard and saw the technical material that he
believes is so persuasive and "closed" the case, but which also
saw the FaAA material prepared for the defense, could not reach
a verdict. "
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tngledwebb Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-30-04 09:19 AM
Response to Reply #28
57. Good questions and answers.
But where'd gary go anyway, and lil'kim? And where'd they come from, just how did a 30 year JFK assassination hobbyist/Iraq tourist get dropped down here? Well, it's a free country... sorry, WAS a free country.
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Nickster Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-26-04 01:18 PM
Response to Original message
2. Funny how all those other pesky facts out there......
don't substantiate this claim.
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vincent_vega_lives Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-29-04 12:50 PM
Response to Reply #2
44. Like what 'facts' exactly?
Seen plenty of 'theory' and little fact regarding the JFK assasination.
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Tandalayo_Scheisskopf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-26-04 01:19 PM
Response to Original message
4. After reading down...
I am gonna have to learn a WHOLE lot more about these two guys and their research, before I even consider buying into any of this.

Sounds to me as if someone has a book coming out, and that they had a pre-existing bias that they set out to prove.

That is not scientific method.
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NoMoreMrNiceGuy Donating Member (603 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-26-04 01:20 PM
Response to Original message
5. LOL...yeah right...there is also scientific proof he didn't
I believe them about as much as I do scientist who say global warming has nothing to do with burning of fossil fuels.
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ibegurpard Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-26-04 01:22 PM
Response to Original message
6. Throw out the words "scientific proof" and "neutron activation analyses"
and watch people eat it up without question. Does anyone actually know what any of this means?
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InformedSource Donating Member (300 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-26-04 01:34 PM
Response to Original message
7. There have been a lot of so-called science proving that
Prove it to me conclusively and I still will believe in a conspiracy. My pet theory is the "aimed nut" theory; someone put Oswald up to it. There is an infrequently seen film clip, that never shows up in the documentaries, where Oswald, in the Dallas Police Station, says he's a "patsy," and I believe he is correct. Even if he was the only trigger man, he was there for some reason at the behest of somebody.

There is also an infrequently seen film clip of Jack Ruby, in prison, saying he would tell the whole story if he was taken out of Dallas. His convenient cancer took him out before that could happen.

The problem is, most of the conspirators, whoever they were, are either dead or too old to be any good for unraveling the plot.

We never will know the true story of JFK's death, just as we will never know the full story of 911.
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prayin4rain Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-26-04 01:36 PM
Response to Original message
9. They are taking alot of liberty with "acted alone".
He fired the rifle therefore----he acted alone. That is weird.
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vincent_vega_lives Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-29-04 12:52 PM
Response to Reply #9
45. I think what 'acted alone' means in this case is
he was the only shooter.
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aden_nak Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-26-04 01:43 PM
Response to Original message
10. Yes, all of this is much more likely than a second shooter.
I also saw someone explain it away by showing how if both men lined up at the PERFECT angle, and the bullet tumbled and bounced just so, the shot could be vaguely re-created by using animal carcases as dummies.

Again, clearly this neigh-impossible situation was more likely than human corruption.
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Robbie67 Donating Member (687 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-26-04 01:56 PM
Response to Original message
11. How did Lee Harvey Oswald
end up working at the ONE place that made it most easy for him to take JFK out? How did he know that Kennedy's route took him past the TSB months before the visit took place?

It's these questions about the JFK assassination and so many unanswered questions about 9/11 that ensures that I will never wholly trust my government again.
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obreaslan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-26-04 02:17 PM
Response to Original message
13. I recently read a book on this subject...
And the one thing that occured to me as I read through it was that all of the language the government and the FBI and CIA used in their excuses as to why they wouldn't release certain documents was the same language they used for the 9/11 documents they wouldn't release.

Over and over they would say they couldn't release things because of "National Security" and such. It actually freaked me out how similar the situations were.

Dare I say that it's the same guys today running the background of this government?

Here's a quote...

"When Lee Harvery Oswald returned to the US from the Soviet Union he settled in Texas. He was befriended by a wealthy white Russian oil man, named George de Mohenschildt--who was the CIA officer who directed Oswald's actions evidence suggests. de Mohenschildt's address book cantained this entry: "Operation Zapata" was the secret name of the Bay of Pigs invasion of Cuba planned by the CIA in 1961. Two of the ships were named "Barbara" and "Houston" George and Barbara Bushes home town and location of Zapata Oil.
If George Sr., aka Poppy, was a man of integrity, and not covering-up, why didn't he investigate the JFK assasination as past--maybe still-- head of the CIA and as US President for 4 years in the 1980's or ask his son, George Jr. serving as President, to clear Texas and the Bush name?"

PLAUSABLE DENIABILITY: WAS THE CIA INVOLVED IN THE ASASSINATION OF JFK? by, Mark Lane, 1992. Check it out.

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fob Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-26-04 02:24 PM
Response to Original message
14. "the only way to prove that Oswald’s rifle was fired that day,
and thereby quash the rumors that it had been planted to frame Oswald."

What? Why would they "plant" a rifle that hadn't been fired? Proving that it had been fired and that it had been fired AT Kennedy are 2 different things entirely.

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demosincebirth Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-26-04 02:33 PM
Response to Original message
16. Oswald did not act alone!
They must think we're idiots.
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PROGRESSIVE1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-26-04 02:41 PM
Response to Original message
17. Bull!!!
100% BULL!!!!!
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Merlin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-26-04 02:46 PM
Response to Original message
19. Let's see: new guy with 3 posts tries to feed us a line of b.s. Hmmm....
Funny. This technology's been around for 25 years. Guess nobody's been interested enough in this case to have though of using it before.

But wait! They DID use it before. They discovered there is absolutely no way NAA can determine whether bullet fragments came from the same BULLET or the same LOT of bullets.
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WoodrowFan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-26-04 07:21 PM
Response to Original message
20. good luck
I believe it, but the Cters here are about to go friggin NUTS on you. lots of distortions and made up facts.
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Bolo Boffin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-26-04 07:38 PM
Response to Original message
21. Links for all reality-based investigators
http://karws.gso.uri.edu/JFK/Scientific_topics/NAA/NAA.html

Definitely check out this page, with links to a major paper on the topic:

http://karws.gso.uri.edu/JFK/Scientific_topics/NAA/NAA_and_assassination_II/NAA_and_assassination.html

The House Select Committee report that uses the NAA analyses of two and two bullets alone evidence:

http://www.archives.gov/research_room/jfk/house_select_committee/committee_report_oswald.html

But hey! Don't let actual science get in the way of what you want to believe...
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demodewd Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-26-04 08:52 PM
Response to Reply #21
22. sorry bolo...
Edited on Tue Oct-26-04 09:07 PM by demodewd
The bullet that blew out Kennedy's brain entered from the right temple area. The entry wound was small. The damage expanded upon entry and tore out half his cranium. Oswald could not did not fire this bullet.

www.celebritymorgue.com
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Bolo Boffin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-26-04 10:11 PM
Response to Reply #22
26. I think you're ignoring the science on this.
The only fragments of bullets recovered are from two single bullets. Both were fired from Oswald's rifle.

As far as your "right temple area" assertion.

The forensic pathology panel concluded that President Kennedy was struck by two, and only two, bullets, each of which entered from the rear. 1 The panel further concluded that the President was struck by one bullet that entered in the upper right of the back and exited from the front of the throat, and one bullet that entered in the right rear of the head near the cowlick area and exited from the right side of the head, toward the front. This second bullet caused a massive wound to the President's head upon exit. There is no medical evidence that the President was struck by a bullet entering the front of the head,(19) and the possibility that a bullet could have struck the President and yet left no evidence is extremely remote.

That's the House Select Committee's forensic pathology panel. Two bullets, both from the rear.

Oswald could and did fire this bullet.
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demodewd Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-26-04 10:46 PM
Response to Reply #26
27. www.celebritymorgue.com
Edited on Tue Oct-26-04 10:48 PM by demodewd
The massive wound to Kennedy's head upon bullet exit is his blown out cranium. The bullet entered the right temple area and blew out half his brain upon exiting. Photographic evidence? www.celebritymorgue.com


No house committee or government agency is going to do anything but rubber stamp the official version.That's just the way government agencies work. You don't cross Big Daddy.
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Bolo Boffin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-28-04 07:12 PM
Response to Reply #27
34. The forensic scientists examined the Xrays, dd.
They verified from dental records that the Xrays were those of JFK, and then their unanimous verdict was from the rear to the front.

Unless you have credentials as a forensic scientist, and can present conclusive evidence to the contrary, there's no reason to take your uneducated opinion on how those wounds were inflicted. None. It's you against the scientists on this one, demo.
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demodewd Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-28-04 09:20 PM
Response to Reply #34
35. Parkland Hospital Staff and ballistics analysis
Parkland Hospital Staff

McClelland made clear that he thought the rear wound in the skull was an exit wound (WC-V6:35,37). McClelland ascribed the cause of death to, "...massive head injuries with loss of large amounts of cerebral and cerebellar tissues and massive blood loss." (WC--V6:34)
) ROBERT McCLELLAND, MD

Jenkins told Specter that the temporal and occipital wound was a wound of exit, "...the wound with the exploded area of the scalp, as I interpreted it being exploded, I would interpret it being a wound of exit..." (WC--V6:51.)
3) MARION THOMAS JENKINS, MD

A few minutes later he described "what appeared to be an exit wound in the posterior portion of the skull". (Emphasis added throughout)

6) RONALD COY JONES: was a senior General Surgery resident physician at Parkland Hospital
It is particularly noteworthy that Jones continued to believe JFK's skull suggested a rear exit of a bullet that entered from anterior. In January, 1983 he told David Lifton, "If you brought him in here today, I'd still say he was shot from the front." (BE, p. 705)

"I walked to the President's head to get a closer look. His entire right cerebral hemisphere appeared to be gone. It looked like a crater--an empty cavity. All I could see there was mangled, bloody tissue. From the damage I saw, there was no doubt in my mind that the bullet had entered his head through the front, and as it surgically passed through his cranium, the missile obliterated part of the temporal and all the parietal and occipital lobes before it lacerated the cerebellum." ( JFK: Conspiracy of Silence, p. 86)
CHARLES CRENSHAW, MD

ROBERT GROSSMAN, MD: had just joined the staff of Parkland at the time of the assassination as an Instructor in Neurosurgery. He never testified to the Warren Commission or the HSCA. Authors Groden and Livingstone, however, claim, "He (Grossman) said that he saw two large holes in the head, as he told the (Boston) Globe, and he described a large hole squarely in the occiput, far too large for a bullet entry wound...". (HT-I Groden and Livingstone, p. 51)-& also "Duffy & Ricci, The Assassination of John F. Kennedy--A Complete Book of Facts, p. 207-208.)

http://www.assassinationweb.com/ag6.htm

The fourth shot, third head shot, entered the right temple hairline and traversed cranial cavity in a front to back direction depositing minute particles along its path at the top of the head exiting in the crown area about 4 inches above the occipital protuberance. The velocity of the bullet with the existing skull fractures from the other two headshots was enough to cause the head to explode.
Remember according to Wilber, the internal cranial pressure is approximately equal to the square of the velocity of the bullet. In addition bullet velocity must be a minimum of 2,000 feet per second {yielding 4,000,000 pounds per square inch} to cause an intact skull to explode. The size of the temporary cavity depends on the kinetic energy of the bullet, Ekin = (m/2) V2 where V = velocity and m = mass (bullet weight). The internal cranial pressure depends upon fluid physics. Pascal’s law, fluid pressure is the same in all directions. Liquid is relatively incompressible and external force is transmitted equally throughout the volume of the liquid. Fluids transmit pressure undiminished in a hydraulic press, which is a closed container. The kinetic energy of a fluid is, Ekin =1/2mV2 where V = velocity and m = mass (of the fluid). Bernoulli’s equation, P + pgh + 1/2PV2 = constant where P= absolute pressure and p=mass density of fluid. Simply put, the skull is a closed container filled with water and when a bullet moves fast enough the skull will explode. The fluid physics require most of the blood and brain to splatter in the direction of the bullet path. In the case of JFK blood and brain was splattered to the left rear of JFK due to the frontal shots.


1. The bullet hits the skin crushing it against the skull. The outer skin edge is curved inward and stretches as the marginal abrasion compression ring is formed as the bullet passes. A hole about the size of the bullet is formed in the skin. Sometimes crushed skin tags remain attached to the inner compression ring as seen in the white circle in F8.
2. The bullet hits the skull and it fractures in a unique cone shaped pattern of inward beveling. The hole in the skull surface struck by the bullet is smaller than the hole on the exiting the surface. Other fractures often occur parallel to the suture lines of the skull bones. About 300 foot-pounds of energy is transferred from the bullet to the skull to cause the fractures.


3. Bone fragments become missiles and enter the brain. The bullet is deformed by the impact. Some bullets mushroom while others fragment. Often the direction of the bullet path is deflected by the impact with bone. Thus bullet path through the body usually does not point directly to the shooter but to the general area of the shooter. The path of the final JFK head shot is upwards at about 40º as measured on Z 312. The path is also left to right given the looking left head position indicating a south bridge sewer shooting position assuming only upward deflection. Because of the probability of deflection the shooter could be in either the lower or upper sewer or behind the picket fence or even on or under the bridge and possibly the south bridge sewer but absolutely in front of JFK. Assuming no bullet deflection the shooter must be in the lower north sewer. It is very difficult to match JFK’s Z 312 position with this frontal shot and the shooter’s position.
4. Occasionally some of the skin edge will be pulled into the bone beveling fracture of the skull, which can be seen in the marginal compression ring of the skin. Compression rings cause the skin to be inward beveled so that when the excised skin is laid flat and viewed from the inner surface the wound margins are elevated higher than the surrounding skin. To demonstrate, punch a hole in a sheet of paper supported by a cardboard box with a pencil and examine the hole from both sides of the paper. Notice the characteristics for determining the direction of the entry.
5. As the bullet enters the brain a few inches the internal cranial pressure rises to approximately the square of the velocity of the bullet, which is a minimum of 2,000 feet per second {yielding 4,000,000 pounds per square inch} to cause an intact skull to explode.
6. Pascal’s law, fluid pressure is the same in all directions. A small amount of blood is then ejected under pressure out the entry hole. In the case of JFK the .45 bullet is seen exiting the head and both a lower and a horizontal jet of blood is seen going towards Connally in Z 313. This blood appears to be ejected from both the right temple entry and the .45 entry. No jet of blood is seen from the occipital Parkland wound because the intact brain acted like a plug. The Parkland wound bullet left the brain virtually intact however this initial pressure probably caused the protruding brain tissue seen in F5 and the cerebellum tissue reportedly seen at Parkland. An unusually black blob obscures the back of the head wound in the Z film. This could be photo tampering to obscure the occipital wound but it could be natural shadow but it is strange. Closed containers filled with water produce the same effect when shot. A small amount of fluid is usually ejected from the entry towards the shooter.
7. As the bullet proceeds the internal cranial pressure reaches maximum and the skull explodes. The skull fractures and the skin tears along lines of least resistance thus the head explodes near the point of bullet entry. The skin often tears across the entry wound leaving semicircles on the skin flaps. When the skin flaps are brought together a complete circle of entry is formed. The explosion reduces the pressure wave around the bullet. Remember JFK already has two bullet wounds to the head with multiple skull fractures thus the bullet velocity to explode the skull is less than 2000 ft/sec.
8. The bullet traverses the brain with reduced velocity and a smaller temporary cavity. About 160 foot-pounds of energy is transferred from the bullet to the head.
9. The deformed fragmented bullet hits the skull and it fractures in a unique cone shaped pattern of outward beveling as it exits the skull. An additional 300 foot-pounds of energy is transferred from the bullet to the skull to cause the fractures.
10. The bullet exits the skin. Because the head exploded with many skin tears and flaps with multiple skull fractures the skin exit may not be exactly over the skull exit. Because the skull exploded reducing the pressure wave and the slowing of the bullet to low velocity the exit is only 2 to 3 times the bullet diameter instead of several inches were it at high velocity. This is a situation where the gross appearance of the exploded entry appears larger than the exit. Discounting the skin tears caused by the explosion the entry is smaller than the exit, which is almost always the case in all ballistic wounds.
ALL OF THIS OCCURS IN 1/2000TH OF A SECOND
In 1/18th of a second the bullet travels 111 feet assuming a bullet speed of 2000 ft/sec.

http://www.kenrahn.com/JFK/Issues_and_evidence/Frontal_shot(s)/Tobias_frontal_shots/Fourth_wound.html

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demodewd Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-29-04 01:21 AM
Response to Reply #34
36. physical evidence
The testimony and physical evidence presented by Dallas Motorcycle Officers Bobby Hargis and J. C Martin. Both stated that they were positioned behind and to the left of the left rear bumper of the limousine at the time of the fatal headshot and were hit with blood and brain matter from the President. The Zapruder film verifies their positions in the motorcade. Only a shot from the right front would have propelled the material to the left rear of the limousine and only a rear exit wound would have allowed the after-effects to impact with anyone to the left rear.


The so-called Harper Fragment, a portion of human skull found on the grassy triangle area of Dealey Plaza. While there has been much controversy over what area of the skull the fragment came from, no one has doubted that it did come from JFK's head and landed on the grass. This grassy area was to the left of the limousine, and the force required to propel the fragment there needed to originate from the right side of Elm Street.

The actions, shown on the Zapruder film, by Mrs. Kennedy, after the headshot. She is seen, climbing out on the left rear of the limousine trunk retrieving another piece of her husband's skull. The force to propel it there needed to come from the right front.

Every picture of the interior of the limousine taken after the fatal shot, fails to show anything near the amount of brain and blood that should have splattered the front windshield, Mrs. Connally, and/or the two Secret Service agents in front of JFK, IF the fatal shot had come from behind and exited to the front, as depicted in the autopsy photographs and X-rays.

http://pages.prodigy.net/whiskey99/chapter3.htm


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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-29-04 09:13 AM
Response to Reply #36
37. It's interesting to note
some information from page 211 of Tip O'Neill's book, "Man of the House." Tip told of having lunch with Kenny O'Donnell and others in 1968, and taking about 11-22. O'Donnell said he was sure he heard two shots come from behind the fence on the knoll.

"That's not what you told the Warren Commission," O'Neill said.

"That's right," O'Donnell told O'Neill. "I told the FBI what I heard." Dave Powers was with them. He told O'Neill the same story. The FBI pressured both men to knowingly lie to the Warren Commission.

Many Americans find it troubling that the FBI convinced two of JFK's closest friends to lie to the commission studying the assassination.
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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-29-04 09:22 AM
Response to Reply #37
38. Bill O'Reilly, a reporter for WFAA-TV in Dallas
turned a slug found by a boy who was watching the president pass through Dealy Plaza that day. He was with his father, when he found a bullet that had hit the ground near them. The father turned it over to O'Reilly, who turned it over to Gaeton Fonzi, who gave it to the commission's chief investigator, Cliff Fenton.

This is documented on page 530 of Crossfire, by Jim Marrs. You will not find that bullet in the Warren Commission's report. I suspect like the true story that O'Donnell and Powers reported to the FBI, this bullet would not have fit well with the fiction that Lee Harvey Oswald shot JFK.

To demonstrate how those on this thread either purposely or ignorantly twist the truth, even if it could be shown that ANY of the shots that hit JFK or Connelly came from the building where Oswald was, there is not a single shred of evidence that indicates LHO fired a weapon from there. Thus, to say anyone has "proved" he and he alone shot JFK is 100% false.
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k-robjoe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-29-04 10:04 AM
Response to Reply #38
39. There´s also this :
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vincent_vega_lives Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-29-04 01:20 PM
Response to Reply #38
47. That would fit perfectly with the three shots.
Two hit Kennedy and one missed the limo.
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tngledwebb Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-29-04 12:02 PM
Response to Reply #34
43. Where, if one may ask,
did you get your degree(s)or at least your special expertise in reading and confirming the validity of technical or scientifically based reports? You got a degree from an Ivy League school just like the pretzeledent? Or is it that you just hear the magic words- Scientist! Doctor! Professional! Official Report! and then you go all floppy? Cause those type of people don't NEVER lie, they're incorruptible, infallible, objective and always non-partisan, just can't never be bought, and we all can sleep easy without asking anymore pesky questions?
You do recall a certain Doctor Mengele and friends, or those tobacco experts on C-Span saying how cigarettes weren't really so bad?
Or take the current crop of 'professionals' who've killed 100'000 civilians in Iraq through misreading or perhaps correctly reading 'professional' intelligence reports, and professionally planning pin-point bombing with the most advanced technology? Remember?
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vincent_vega_lives Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-29-04 01:10 PM
Response to Reply #22
46. And how do you know that?
May I ask?

This is exactly the crap that causes these "theories".



This graphic has Kennedy and Connally sitting at the same level, and in line with each other. The truth is plain for all to see, however.

Here's a picture of the limo. Connally was in the front "jump-seat" which was MUCH lower.



Also Connally was sitting inboard from Kennedy.


He had to as the jump-seat was inboard.
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k-robjoe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-29-04 06:07 PM
Response to Reply #46
51. Here is a drawing
that was made by a doctor, and presented to the commission :



He has the bullet passing (way) over Kennedys head.

( Pic found at : http://spot.acorn.net/jfkplace/09/fp.back_issues/22nd_Issue/sbt.html )

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demodewd Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-29-04 10:08 PM
Response to Reply #46
54. you believe this stuff?
Just lookig at the limousine photogragh with Kennedy's and the Connalys seated it is utterly obvious that the ricocheted bullet theory is ridiculous. And that's the bullet that was found on Connaly's gurney?? And you believe this stuff?
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vincent_vega_lives Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-30-04 08:53 AM
Response to Reply #54
56. Never even heard of the "ricocheted bullet theory"
The bullet that was found on the gurney was most likley the spent round that passed through Kennedy, and Connally.

So which stuff?
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demodewd Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-30-04 06:18 PM
Response to Reply #56
59. the magic bullet
CE 399, the "magic bullet", did all that it was alleged to do and yet, it retained all but 1/180 of an ounce of its original weight, was virtually pristine and totally devoid of any fabric striations or human matter. In addition, despite the fact that the first 4 people to handle the bullet found on the stretcher could not later identify CE 399 as that bullet, it was.

http://pages.prodigy.net/whiskey99/chapter5.htm
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LARED Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-27-04 11:00 AM
Response to Reply #21
30. Reality based researchers should be archiving the 9/11 stuff
It's a future gold mine. Think of all the money thats been made on the Kennedy assassination. Just one good debunking book can make millions. The 9/11 CT'ers of the future will provide plenty of fodder for debunking books once the more interesting 9/11 mythologies really take hold.
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k-robjoe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-27-04 10:49 AM
Response to Original message
29. Isn´t this
what they did?

"Dr. GREGORY. In examining this bullet, I find a small
flake has been either knocked off or removed from
the rounded end of the missile.
"I was told that this was removed for the purpose of analysis."

"Dr Wecht testified to the HSCA that 339 could not have caused the injuries, that the small defect on the tip (not the crown) is where a sample has been removed for metallurgy tests."

So the fragments found in Connallys wrist were not from this bullet?
But what they did was, they threw away the fragments they found in Connallys wrist, and replaced them with the fragments they had scraped of the CE-399 (magic bullet)?



( When you look at the bullet, you can tell that it wasn´t this that "smashed 10cm of Connally's fifth rib and shattered his radius (a hefty bone)." ?

How does the bullet deposit those fragments, considering their location on the bullet? What does it look like? Like those fragments were "scraped" off the bullet? Well, that´s what the doctors above said. )
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k-robjoe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-29-04 10:07 AM
Response to Reply #29
40. Here is
a piece that deals with the fragment being swapped :

http://jfkresearch.freehomepage.com/842.html

( "Dr. Charles Gregory removed one bullet fragment from the wrist of Gov. Connally, as documented in SA Doyle Williams' FBI report dated 11/30/63: (...)" )

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vincent_vega_lives Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-29-04 01:26 PM
Response to Reply #29
48. When you look at the bullet
you can tell it is warped, and rather less than 'pristine'. Here is an end-on view.

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k-robjoe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-29-04 03:59 PM
Response to Reply #48
50. Bullet
Dr. Gregory treated the wounds in the wrist of the Governor.

" Dr. Gregory : The wound of entrance is characteristic in my view of an irregular missile in this case, an irregular missile which has tipped itself off as being irregular by the nature of itself...I mean one that has been destorted. It is in some way angular, it has edges or sharp edges or something of this sort. It is not rounded or pointed in the fashion of an ordinary missile."

http://www.jfk-info.com/wcgregry.htm

This doesn´t seem like this bullet ( And Gregory didn´t believe it was either ) :



Making the wound of entrance in the wrist, it must have been still totally intact :

The ABC meassured the fragments that were removed from Connallys wrist and came to this conclusion :

" That the "weight of fragments found in Connelly's wrist precisely match the missing fragments from the bullet" ".

This makes perfect sense if the fragments were "scraped" off the bullet by the FBI, and put in the place of the (one single) fragment that was removed from Connallys wrist.

It does not make sense if you believe it came from the CE-399, magic bullet, since the ABC forgot about the fragments that were not removed :

"Mr. FITHIAN: The other fragments were not removed?

Dr. BADEN: The other fragments were not removed and are still present as demonstrated on subsequent X-rays available to the committee when the Governor's arm was healing."

http://www.jfk-info.com/fragment.htm ( With x-ray pic. )

And when you realize that what hit Connallys thigh was not a whole bullet :

"The Warren Commission was sent more evidence about the wound to Connally's thigh by the FBI. Another Parkland doctor, Dr. Jack Reynolds, sent a note to the FBI describing the wound and with an X-ray of Connally's left thigh attached. He described the thigh wound as round, 1cm diameter and containing a roughly oval fragment, 3.5mm long, 1.3 mm wide lying on the axis of thigh (a shape not consistent with lead extruded from base). The note and X-ray were forwarded to the Warren Commission, however, they chose not to use this information.

With the testimony of Dr. Shires and the FBI note from Dr. Reynolds, the Warren Commission was well aware that a whole bullet did not penetrate Connally's thigh, only a fragment. Dr. Shires said that the skin wound was either tangential or that a larger fragment (not a whole bullet) had penetrated or stopped in the skin and then fallen out."

http://spot.acorn.net/jfkplace/09/fp.back_issues/22nd_Issue/sbt.html
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tngledwebb Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-27-04 12:13 PM
Response to Original message
31. Why is this here?
This is GD stuff really, but it shows that OCT is an OCD where sufferers do everything they can to disprove every CT except their own. Strange isn't it?
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robertpaulsen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-28-04 02:34 PM
Response to Original message
32. Did Oswald kill JFK on 9/11? No? THEN WHAT THE FUCK IS THIS HERE FOR?
Honestly, what the Christ is this moronic motherfucking shit doing in a forum I visit to discuss 9/11? If Oswald acted alone, as this remarkably observant and remarkably absent poster has so graciously proven beyond a shadow of a doubt, then how the fuck could this possibly relate to either 9/11, military affairs or terrorism?

WAKE THE FUCK UP, MODS! THIS DOESN'T FUCKING BELONG HERE!!!
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Minstrel Boy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-28-04 02:53 PM
Response to Reply #32
33. I think it's here because
this forum is now being treated as a catch-all dumping ground for conspiracy-themed threads, particularly those the mods find embarrassing.

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tngledwebb Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-29-04 11:12 AM
Response to Original message
42. Neutron activation analysis, yes
the answer at last! Of course! But when thousands of Americans saw the Zapruder film for the first time, they were bamboozled by their own eyes, and wrote enough enough letters to re-open a third and final whitewash. Mass deception, of course, so common these days. Good thing Mr. Moore didn't show the Pentagon 'crash' photos or the WTC collapses in his F9/11 movie, or we'd probably be waiting another forty years till all was finally explained by 'neutron activation analysis.'
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-29-04 01:29 PM
Response to Reply #42
49. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
tngledwebb Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-30-04 03:45 AM
Response to Reply #49
55. Thanks for the compliment
equally pointless to whom is the point, but yes, for some I would certainly hope so.
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number6 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-29-04 08:02 PM
Response to Original message
53. and what in the F**K does this have to do with
9/11, Military Affairs, and Terrorism

..........LilKim
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demodewd Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-30-04 06:12 PM
Response to Original message
58. For the Warren Commission to be correct...
If the Warren Commission Report was correct in its conclusions, then ALL of the following would have to be true. To defend that conclusion you must be able to explain, and believe in, each one of these statements:

1) The motorcade route through Dallas was accidentally set up to bring JFK, traveling at an extremely slow speed, within rifle range of LHO at the TSBD, the only time in recorded history that a major political figure was assassinated by someone who was unaided by others, not an insider and did not need to stalk his victim. Dallas SAIC Forrest Sorrels did this, accidentally, in direct violation of the strict Secret Service presidential motorcade security protocol.

2) LHO did not adequately plan for an escape prior to the attempt, since he left a considerable amount of money in Irving and his pistol at his Oak Cliff room. The money could have been used to leave Dallas immediately and the pistol may have been needed to escape the TSBD, had the security forces reacted properly. The failure to take the pistol is unfathomable since his only other weapon, the rifle, contained a maximum of 4 rounds of ammunition.

3) CE 139, the rifle, was transported by LHO to the TSBD, in a paper bag that showed no signs of any gun oil nor any evidence that the rifle had ever been inside it, despite bouncing around on the back seat of Buell Frazier's car all the way from Irving and while the bag was allegedly recovered on the 6th floor of the TSBD, it shows up in no police or media photographs or newsreel films where it was allegedly found.

4) Buell Frazier and Linnie Mae Randle, the only two people to see that package, were both wrong in their estimates about the length of the bag that they saw.

5) All of the eyewitnesses who claimed to see one or more armed men in the 6th floor window of the TSBD before 12:15PM are wrong, since Oswald was seen elsewhere at that time.

6) Since Bonnie Ray Williams testified that he was eating his fried chicken and soda lunch on the 6th floor until at least 12:15PM (WC III, 168-175), we must believe that between 12:15PM and 12:30PM, LHO went from the 1st floor, where he was observed, to the 6th floor, unseen by anyone, retrieved his rifle, lined up his targets, fired 3 shots, and, within a maximum of 90 seconds, wiped the gun clean of prints, sprinted across the floor, hid the rifle, ran down 4 flights of stairs past another employee who didn't see nor hear him, found some change, bought, opened and started to drink a Coke, and was confronted by Officer Marrion Baker, without appearing nervous nor winded. While escaping he managed to run past at least 2 people who did not see him.

7) The numerous witnesses (including 10 Dallas Sheriff's Deputies) who, through the use of one or more of their senses, believed that some shots came from places other than the 6th floor of the TSBD, are all incorrect.

8) The reaction of JFK's head immediately after the impact of the fatal bullet is caused by "neuromuscular spasm" rather than Newton's Laws of Motion and it is normal that the rest of his body did not react to this spasm. Yet, this spasm was so intense that it more than overcame the momentum from the bullet.

9) The debris from JFK's head, including the "Harper Fragment", went back and to the left for reasons that overruled Newton's Laws of Momentum. If we conclude that the HSCA findings are accurate, all this debris came from an exit wound in the right front of Kennedy's head, yet went to the left rear of his position. If the "jet effect" theory, used to explain Kennedy's rearward head movement is correct, the debris which shot out of the right front of his head, somehow splattered the DPD motorcycle cops to the left rear of the limousine instead of the Connallys and Secret Service agents in front of JFK.

10) Oswald achieved 2 hits in three shots, and the one shot that missed, missed by at least 30 feet high and 21 feet to the right of his target. He achieved this while using a rifle with a misaligned scope that needed two metal shims, was mounted for a left-handed shooter and judged inaccurate at 15 yards, and possessing a firing pin so rusted that experts were later afraid to dry fire it.

11) He fired these 3 shots in 5.6 seconds.

12) He obtained this accuracy despite no evidence of ever practicing with the rifle (or ANY bolt-action rifle), owning any of the equipment necessary to maintain it, nor leaving any record of ever buying any ammunition to have practiced with.
13) Those people who saw someone believed to be Oswald, under highly visible circumstances, when he was documented to be elsewhere, are incorrect about either when it occurred or what they saw, and that these sightings could not possibly be an attempt by anyone to impersonate, and incriminate, LHO.

14) The 3 law enforcement officers who identified the rifle they found as a "7.65mm Mauser" in sworn statements they made, were all mistaken and the 5 reports that had descriptions of the rifle originally found but were missing from the files turned over to the Commission, were of no importance.

15) Despite the fact that the FBI's hand-picked experts, the HSCA Firearms Panel's experts , and numerous other experts around the world could never duplicate the shooting accuracy needed, within the time frame needed, using CE 139 in its original condition, LHO did it, under incredible pressure, on his first and only possible attempt.

16) CE 399, the "magic bullet", did all that it was alleged to do and yet, it retained all but 1/180 of an ounce of its original weight, was virtually pristine and totally devoid of any fabric striations or human matter. In addition, despite the fact that the first 4 people to handle the bullet found on the stretcher could not later identify CE 399 as that bullet, it was.

17) Despite the fact that basic trigonometry does not support the possibility for CE 399 to have wounded both men, it still did.

18) The observations of the placement of the wounds as seen by the attending medical personnel at Parkland Hospital are wrong since they disagree with the autopsy photographs and X-rays. It is therefore necessary to believe that a number of qualified doctors and nurses attempted to treat JFK while NOT KNOWING where his most prominent wound was.

19) The autopsy face sheet, death certificate, bullet holes in JFK's jacket and shirt, and FBI report and later re-enactment photographs, while all in agreement with each other, are incorrect in regards to the placement of the non-fatal wound. So is the autopsy report itself, since it agrees with neither its supporting documents and physical evidence, nor the autopsy photographs and X-rays.

20) The fatal head wound entered and exited through the back of JFK's head (autopsy report CE 391) unless it exited to the right front of his head (HSCA Medical Panel; X-rays) where it shattered his forehead to the base of the eye socket and did so without showing sufficient visible damage to be seen in the autopsy photographs.

21) The FBI report statement that Dr. Humes initially noted that there had been, "surgery of the head area, namely in the top of the skull", is wrong.

22) All other information and conclusions derived from the original autopsy in regards to the direction of the shots is correct, despite the HSCA review of the autopsy photographs and X-rays which concluded that the non-fatal wound placement was off by 2" and the fatal bullet entrance wound being off by at least 4".

23) The HSCA testimony of Drs. Humes and Boswell shows them in agreement with the HSCA placement of the wounds and acknowledges their autopsy report mistakes in this regard.

24) HSCA exhibits F-53 and F-56, head X-rays of the President, are not in conflict with any of the autopsy photographs.

25) The fatal bullet caused damage to the scalp and brain remarkably similar to the surgery performed by pathologists while performing an autopsy, and used to recover fragments. Yet, only two of the fragments that caused them could be recovered and neither could be matched ballistically.

26) All of the witnesses who stated that they were told to remain quiet about what they knew or saw, or claimed that their actual testimony was misrepresented in the government studies, were lying or in error, and were not coerced or pressured by the conscious efforts of investigators intent on blaming Oswald.

27) Jack Ruby's actions after he murdered LHO, including his demeanor before and after being told that Oswald was dead, his statements to Earl Warren and others, and his multiple requests to be taken to Washington so that he could "tell the truth" meant nothing of importance.

28) The "Secret Service" impostors found near the picket fence on the knoll by the DPD, and earlier observed there by other witnesses, had nothing to do with the assassination or simply, never existed.

29) Despite the documented admissions of senior FBI and CIA officials that they would have suppressed any evidence uncovered that pointed to a conspiracy, they did not do so.

30) LHO also became the first major assassin in history to use public transportation to make his getaway from the scene of the crime.

31) Despite having the opportunity, means and ability to immediately leave Dallas unhindered by police, he elected to go back to his room and subsequently on to the Texas Theater, for no apparent reason.

32) In the end, it was more important for the Warren Commission to interview people who were acquainted with LHO when he was 12, than to interview all of the 200 people present in Dealey Plaza during the assassination.

33) The conclusions of the ARRB military documents expert, Douglas Horne, that 2 brain examinations were done on 2 different specimens, and the use of the examination of the wrong specimen for the record, are erroneous, despite the multitude of contradictions in recollections and FBI Special Agent Francis O'Neill's sworn statement that the brain photographs housed in the National Archives are not that of President Kennedy.

34) The multiple "coincidences" that pervade in this episode are just that, coincidences.

http://pages.prodigy.net/whiskey99/chapter5.htm
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