Was OBL responsible (in any capacity) for 9/11??

[Egalitariat]

I've seen several, maybe hundreds, of posts here where people didn't believe OBL had any responsibility for 9/11. I was even tempted to put on my tinfoil hat and go along from time to time.

Does anyone here still believe that OBL had no culpability with 9/11?

[DuctapeFatwa]

1. Today's production seems to have unified both Bush and Kerry camps

not only regarding the official "explanation" for the 9-11 events, but also on the wisdom of killing lots of Muslims as a national policy. So hats off to the producers!

[Egalitariat]

4. You're absolutely right. It's brilliant...

Both camps can spin this thing in their own favor. Is it real or is it reverse psychology. Or is it reverse-reverse psychology? Nobody will ever know. As a person who is entertained by politics, as opposed to someone who lives and dies by politics, I really get a kick out of the way this video is interjecting itself into the national debate.

But in the end, I believe that OBL's puppet masters are much more strategic than Bush's or Kerry's.

[DuctapeFatwa]

7. And in the end, I think you may be seeing more puppetmasters than

there actually are. Mirrors are remarkable things.

[TwilightZone]

2. Sad to say, many people think Bush was responsible and OBL wasn't.

While I hold Bush responsible for his incompetence and for ignoring signs that an attack was coming, I reject the theory that his administration was directly responsible for, or planned, the attacks.

There are also plenty of people who believe the tape is a fake and that bin Laden has been dead for years. I am not one of them.

[Dookus]

3. I believe he was...

he was certainly responsible for prior attacks against American interests, and I see no reason why he wouldn't continue to do so.

Before any commentator on 9/11 mentioned his name, I believed he was responsible. Bill Clinton did, too.

Plus he's said he's responsible.

I think the non-stop speculation that he wasn't behind it is nonsensical conspiracy nonsense that makes our side look like loons.

[Robbie67]

16. Got any evidence?

Certainly after over 3 years there should be some official evidence.

[Swamp Rat]

22. delete

[Darranar]

5. I think he was largely responsible for it, doubt direct US involvement. n/

[htuttle]

6. I would still like a full criminal investigation and legal case

Just because somebody claims responsibility for an act, especially one as notorious as 9/11, doesn't mean they actually did it.

Who would Osama be WITHOUT 9/11? Not nearly as important. He might have been behind it it, but he also has reason to claim he was, even if he wasn't.

I'm not saying I didn't think he was involved in planning it. I'm saying that it still hasn't been proven to any legal standard. Obviously, Osama wasn't flying one of the planes -- so what were the connections between him and the pilots? Where did the money come from? How was the money transferred? Who authorized the passports and other documents, etc... These are all questions that should have been answered by now.

We should assume that more than just Osama and 19 hijackers were involved. Everyone who was involved should be held culpable for their actions.

[radwriter0555]

8. Nope. nothing.. even the FBI hasn't accused OBL of 911.

if ya look at the FBI website on obl....

[BUSHOUT]

9. Several? Even HUNDREDS?? Show me one. n/t

:wtf:

[Egalitariat]

10. Post #8 in this very thread should suffice******

nm

[Egalitariat]

12. Post 11 also*******

nm

[Robbie67]

14. Oh...have you got some evidence?

Link? Anything?

[Egalitariat]

17. No. No evidence. BUSHOUT wanted me to point...

to a link where somebody questioned whether OBL was responsible for 9/11. I pointed him to two links where people questioned whether OBL is responsible for 9/11. That's all. He asked, and I delivered.

I have no proof that OBL was responsible for 9/11. If I find proof, I promise I'll post it here first.

[Robbie67]

20. Good

because, frankly, I have absolutely no faith in anything my government tells me. When I see the evidence of Osama's involvement, whatever it may have been, then we can move forward.

If someone took Osama bin Laden to court today, he'd be laughed out of court with the "evidence" we've seen so far.

[Egalitariat]

19. See post #18 as well*******

nm

[Egalitariat]

24. Also try post #23.....

that's 4 in about 30 minutes. HUNDREDS over the course of 3 years is hardly unbelievable.

[Name removed]

30. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Robbie67]

11. Has there ever been any evidence that he did it?

I seem to remember people screaming about the Bush administration's unwillingness to release or publish any direct information. I don't think there's ever been any public pronouncement of evidence.

[Pastiche423]

18. You are thinking correctly

There has been zippo public pronouncement of evidence of his involvement.

Yet, it seems many people, even on this very board, have taken whistle ass et al's word that OBL was the evildoer that did it all -
WITHOUT ONE SHRED IF EVIDENCE!

[Lostnote03]

13. I thought the "Fat OBL" denied involvement.....

....appears he's changed his mind if you believe the authenticity of the tape.....

[Robbie67]

15. No, no..."Fat Osama" was the "smoking gun"

according to the Bush administration

In that tape, he talked about not knowing that the towers would collapse, and that statement was used as matter of fact evidence that he did it.

[Blackrain]

25. Has anyone ever compared Bin Laden to a real Terrorist?

Take a look at any Terrorist organization, Hez Bolah,PLO,Hammas,Islamic Jihad,Martyrs Brigade. Whenever these guys commit a terrorist act, they're on TV not even 5 minutes after it happened CLAIMING responsibility.

Terrorist never talk in metaphorical terms like Bin Laden. Whenever Hamas decides to blow up a bus full of people, they immediately announce they did it. Even though they know Ariel Sharon will come back and kill Palestinians in return for the their transgressions.

So to me, Bin laden doesn't act or operate like a typical terrorist. He acts and operates like a puppet. A real Terrorist will come right out and admit what he's done, and threaten to do it again if certain demands aren't met.

[Lostnote03]

26. I tend to agree with you, however

...what better way to bait an idiot regime...come make a martyr of me please....

[RH]

33. like a puppet?

You're going to have to explain that.

Why would the puppet master not want the framed puppet to claim the responsibility?

:shrug:

Most of the terrorrorist incidents of any sort that I ever saw reported on TV were reported with nothing but a guess as to who was responsible.

Are you not aware for instance of innocent people, e.g. the Guildford Four, who served 15 years in British Jails, wrongly convicted while the real perpetrators sat back and said nothing?

[UNIXcock]

21. If translated correctly, the admission did catch ...

... me off guard today. I don't know what to think about 9/11 anymore :shrug:

[timtom]

23. This is my 2 cents worth:

I just posted this on another thread just 2 doors up from this thread:
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
The last known photo of the real bin Laden shows a man with rhenal conditions that put him at death's doorstep.

I find this curious, though. Seems to me, I remember bin Laden saying just after the 9/11 incident that he had nothing to do with it. Why would he now take credit for it, after the maximum moment of psychological impact is gone? And why no other videos in the last 3 years?

More basically, everyone, and I mean EVERYONE, begins this whole affair with the axiom that bin Laden did it. Just because someone said it. Why, we've never been offered any evidence that he DID do it. And, remember, Afghanistan offered to hand him over if we showed them proof.

Personally, I have concluded (in the lack of any substantial forensic evidence that:

1) He's dead, Jim.

2) The attack on the WTC was orchestrated and implemented by "someone else".

[KoKo]

28. I don't know. He's a "convenient bogeyman." But the Bin Laden's ties to

the Bushes are documented. I think in some way there is a vendeta against the Bushes.

It's hard to know if Osama is a Bush creation...(an actor) or real. Or if Osama is a not the major figure in "terrorist cells" but a convenient
"strawman."

How are we to know the truth about anything, when two Presidents have had such close ties with Osama's family. For all we know Osama could be working for Bushes?

This needs an investigation but who could we even trust to investigate with most of Congress bought off by special interests and the rest loyal Bush supporters?

So many questions that we don't know the answer to. But the "appearing Osama" at such convenient times is interesting.

[jokerman93]

27. I have to laugh

I think Osama is the evil genius that roams the Earth and is never caught. He's Moriarity. He's a literary fiction. Whoever he is.

Did he do 9/11? Sure. Why not?

[ROH]

29. USAMA BIN LADEN Interview - October 16, 2001

http://www.public-action.com/911/oblintrv.html

Daily UMMAT: You have been accused of involvement in the attacks in New York and Washington. What do you want to say about this? If you are not involved, who might be?

USAMA BIN LADEN: In the name of Allah (God), the most beneficent, the most merciful. Praise be to Allah, Who is the creator of the whole universe and Who made the Earth as an abode for peace, for the whole humankind. Allah is the Sustainer, who sent Prophet Muhammad (saw) for our guidance. I am thankful to The Ummat Group of Publications, which gave me the opportunity to convey my viewpoint to the people, particularly the valiant and momin (true Muslim) people of Pakistan who refused to believe the lies of the demon (Pakistani military dictator General Pervez Musharraf).

I have already said that I am not involved in the 11 September attacks in the United States. As a Muslim, I try my best to avoid telling a lie. I had no knowledge of these attacks, nor do I consider the killing of innocent women, children and other humans as an appreciable act. Islam strictly forbids causing harm to innocent women, children and other people. Such a practice is forbidden even in the course of a battle. It is the United States, which is perpetrating every maltreatment on women, children and common people of other faiths, particularly the followers of Islam. All that is going on in Palestine for the last 11 months is sufficient to call the wrath of God upon the United States and Israel. There is also a warning for those Muslim countries, which witnessed all these as a silent spectator. What had earlier been done to the innocent people of Iraq, Chechnya and Bosnia? Only one conclusion could be derived from the indifference of the United States and the West to these acts of terror and the patronage of the tyrants by these powers that America is an anti Islamic power and it is patronizing the anti-Islamic forces. Its friendship with the Muslim countries is just a show, rather deceit. By enticing or intimidating these countries, the United States is forcing them to play a role of its choice. Put a glance all around and you will see that the slaves of the United States are either rulers or enemies of Muslims.

The U.S. has no friends, nor does it want to keep any because the prerequisite of friendship is to come to the level of the friend or consider him at par with you. America does not want to see anyone equal to it. It expects slavery from others. Therefore, other countries are either its slaves or subordinates. However, our case is different. We have pledged slavery to God Almighty alone and after this pledge there is no possibility to become the slave of someone else. If we do that it will be disregardful to both our Sustainer and his fellow beings. Most of the world nations upholding their freedom are the religious ones, which are the enemies of the United States, or the U.S. itself considers them as its enemies.

The countries which do not agree to become the U.S. slaves are China, Iran, Libya, Cuba, Syria and Russia. Whoever committed the act of 11 September are not the friends of the American people. I have already said that we are against the American system, not against its people, whereas in these attacks, the common American people have been killed. According to my information, the death toll is much higher than what the U.S. Government has stated. But the Bush Administration does not want the panic to spread. The United States should try to trace the perpetrators of these attacks within itself; the people who are a part of the U.S. system, but are dissenting against it. Or those who are working for some other system; persons who want to make the present century as a century of conflict between Islam and Christianity so that their own civilization, nation, country, or ideology could survive. They can be anyone, from Russia to Israel and from India to Serbia. In the U.S. itself, there are dozens of well-organized and well-equipped groups, which are capable of causing a large-scale destruction. Then you cannot forget the American Jews, who are annoyed with President Bush ever since the elections in Florida and want to avenge him.

Then there are intelligence agencies in the U.S., which require billions of dollars worth of funds from the Congress and the government every year. This was not a big problem till the existence of the former Soviet Union but after that the budget of these agencies has been in danger. They needed an enemy. So, they first started propaganda against Usama and Taleban and then this incident happened. You see, the Bush Administration approved a budget of 40 billion dollars. Where will this huge amount go? It will be provided to the same agencies, which need huge funds and want to exert their importance. Now they will spend the money for their expansion and for increasing their importance. I will give you an example. Drug smugglers from all over the world are in contact with the U.S. secret agencies. These agencies do not want to eradicate narcotics cultivation and trafficking because their importance will be diminished. The people in the U.S. Drug Enforcement Department are encouraging drug trade so that they could show performance and get millions of dollars worth of budget. General Noriega was made a drug baron by the CIA and, in need, he was made a scapegoat. In the same way, whether it is President Bush or any other U.S. President, they cannot bring Israel to justice for its human rights abuses or to hold it accountable for such crimes. What is this? Is it not that there exists a government within the government in the United Sates? That secret government must be asked as to who carried out the attacks

[sangh0]

31. It's the elections, DUers!

Do we really need to re-hash out every 9/11-related issue three days before an election?

[DulceDecorum]

32. One for each tower

"If I should ever be called upon to act
professionally, I am happy to think that there will be no difficulty in finding plenty of people whose loss will be a distinct gain to society at large."
-- The Lord High Executioner



Penta-victim coming shortly,
to a theatre of war involving you.

[American Tragedy]

34. I always thought it was strange that he denied involvement

Usually terrorist organizations are shoving each other around in the rush to claim credit for the latest disaster. The practical component of terrorism is lost when the victims don't know who is responsible and what they want.

[RH]

37. Huh?

"shoving each other around in the rush to claim credit for the latest disaster"

Where please is the evidence of that?

Do you have an instance in mind?

If the objective is to induce terror, what then induces the greater terror, knowing what happened and what will happen, or not knowing what happened and what will happen?

[tngledwebb]

35. If a player in the plan, and on the payroll

of Al Ciada, maybe. If instigator and engineer and central mastermind, WHY didn't he take credit at the time?

[Tim Howells]

36. No, it was certainly NOT bin Laden

> I've seen several, maybe hundreds, of posts here where
> people didn't believe OBL had any responsibility for 9/11.
> I was even tempted to put on my tinfoil hat and go along
> from time to time.

> Does anyone here still believe that OBL had no
> culpability with 9/11?

Shortly after September 11. Bin Laden condemned the
attacks in an interview with the Pakistani newspaper,
Ummat:

******** QUOTE ON *******

http://www.vanguardnewsnetwork.com/index141.htm

I have already said that I am not involved in the
11 September attacks in the United States. As a Muslim,
I try my best to avoid telling a lie. I had no knowledge
of these attacks, nor do I consider the killing of
innocent women, children and other humans as an
appreciable act. Islam strictly forbids causing harm to
innocent women, children and other people. Such a
practice is forbidden even in the course of a battle.

******* QUOTE OFF *******

Obviously the current statement being attributed to
bin Laden has been carefully calculated to assist
the Bush/Cheney relection campaign. You will recall
that not so long ago, whenever Bush's poll numbers
would start to slip, he would simply raise the
terrorism alert level and have some administration
lackies start making noise about more attacks. Then,
sure enough, his numbers would start trending up.
This technique became so obvious and overused that
people actually started laughing at it, and therefore
Bush/Cheney could not use it in the late stages of the
election campaign.

Now just before the election "bin Laden" turns up and,
contradicting his original statement, takes "credit"
for September 11 and warns of more attacks. Now anyone
will of course understand that this was well calculated
to boost Bush/Cheney's chances. I'm with Walter Cronkite;
I think that bin Laden's surprise appearance was engineered
by Karl Rove.

http://www.middleeast.org/launch/redirect.cgi?type=&archive=36&function=middle&c=&num=2&background=white

When bin Laden was last seen he was a very sick man needing
frequent medical attention and dialysis treatment. Now
after supposedly being on the run in the mountains of
Afghanistan and/or Pakistan for three years he shows up
in perfect health, relaxed and ready to film what can only
be interpreted as a Bush/Cheney commercial just in time for
the elections. Draw your own conclusions.

No knowledgable person believes that Al Qaeda and bin
Laden were anything more than patsies in the attacks
of September 11.

For example ask Milton Bearden. He was with the CIA from
1964 - 1994. As its field officer in Afghanistan, he oversaw
the CIA's $3bn covert aid program for Afghan rebels fighting
the Soviets. During the 1980's, he was CIA station chief in
the Sudan. When asked about bin Laden's connection to
September 11 in a PBS interview he laughs:

******** QUOTE ON *******

"We've blamed him for every horrible event in our
history except the grassy knoll. And now we have,
with I'm not sure what evidence, linked him to all
of the terrorist acts of this year ... of this
decade, perhaps ... There's a lot of fiction in
there. But we like that. It's the whole Osama bin
Laden mythology. It's almost part entertainment."

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/binladen/interviews/bearden.html

******** QUOTE OFF ******

In another interview on CBS,

******** QUOTE ON *******

"Rather asked Bearden if he thought bin Laden
was responsible for the terrorist 'Attack on America.'
Bearden downright snubbed the possibility. Instead, he
explained, a far more sophisticated intelligence
operation had to be behind these precise coordinated
attacks. Dan Rather, committed to demonizing bin Laden,
restated his concern. 'Look,' Bearden surprisingly
blurted ... 'if they didn't have an Osama bin Laden,
they would invent one.'

http://tetrahedron.org/news/attack_on_america.html

******** QUOTE OFF ******

Or you could ask former CIA official Robert Baer. Baer is
an expert on Middle Eastern terrorism, and was Case Officer
in the Directorate of Operations for the CIA from 1976 to
1997. He received the Career Intelligence Medal in 1997.
While Baer concedes that while bin Laden may possibly have
had some role in September 11, he says:

******** QUOTE ON *******

"Did bin Laden act alone, through his own al-Qaida
network, in launching the attacks? About that I'm far
more certain and emphatic: no."

http://books.guardian.co.uk/extracts/story/0,6761,631434,00.html

******** QUOTE OFF ******

More expert opinions:

******** QUOTE ON *******

"U.S. military intelligence expert Professor Anthony
Cordesman Senior Fellow in Strategic Assessment at the
Washington-based Center for Strategic and International
Studies (CSIS) and former senior official in the Office
of the Secretary of Defense, the State Department, the
Department of Energy, the Defense Advanced Research
Projects Agency, and the NATO International Staff
strongly warned against assuming that Osama bin Laden's
al Qaeda was to blame.

"He emphasized the fact that no known terrorist network,
including al Qaeda, has the capability to carry out the
sophisticated 11 September attacks alone: 'There is a
level of sophistication and co-ordination that no
counterterrorism expert had ever previously anticipated,
and we don't have a group that we can immediately
identify that has this kind of capability.'

Eckehardt Werthebach, former President of Germany's
domestic intelligence service, Verfassungsschutz, notes
that "the deathly precision" and "the magnitude of
planning" behind the 11 in September attacks would
have required "years of planning." An operation of
this level of sophistication, would need the "fixed
frame" of a state intelligence organization,
something not found in a "loose group" of terrorists
like the one allegedly led by Mohammed Atta while he
studied in Hamburg, Germany. Werthebach thus argues that
the scale of the attacks indicates that they were a
product of "state organized actions."

http://cafe.utne.com/motet/guest/motet?show+-uhhv0L+-ilad+Politics+118

******** QUOTE OFF ******

Tim Howells

[k-robjoe]

41. Thanks and welcome

Quote :

"In a lengthy interview and in a memorandum Kabir Mohabbat has given us a detailed account and documentation to buttress his charge that the Bush administration could have had Osama bin Laden and his senior staff either delivered to the US or to allies as prisoners, or killed at their Afghan base. As a search of the data base shows, portions of Mohabbat's role have been the subject of a number of news reports, including a CBS news story by Alan Pizzey aired September 25, 2001. This is the first time he has made public the full story."

http://www.counterpunch.org/cockburn11012004.html

[m000]

38. Osama doesn't really run AQ...

Terrorist organizations rarely have a direct chain of command. This is how they survive. In fact, AQ is presumed so large that many cells have "local" goals for their infiltrated country and often they get in conflicts with other cells that may have differing goals.

What probably happened is one of the cells, or rising leaders, came up with a "plan," and one of OBL's underlings "blessed it" and maybe informed the man upstairs.

But this is pure speculation.

OBL might not have had any direct responsibility, but taking him out is certainly an important step in destroying the overarching organization responsible. We will still have to deal with the specific cells targetting us as the snake can live without a head, but fighting a headless snake is probably preferable to fighting the whole thing.

[tngledwebb]

40. How did you find out so much

'bout terrorist orgs and AQ? Any books to recommend?

[Name removed]

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