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John Lear's No Plane Affidavit

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spooked911 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-16-09 08:40 PM
Original message
John Lear's No Plane Affidavit
(this was transmitted to me via email)

No Boeing 767 airliners hit the Twin Towers as fraudulently alleged by the government, media, NIST and its contractors. Such crashes did not occur because they are physically impossible as depicted for the following reasons:

A. In the case of UAL 175 going into the south tower, a real Boeing 767 would have begun 'telescoping' when the nose hit the 14 inch steel columns which are 39 inches on center. The vertical and horizontal tail would have instantaneously separated from the aircraft, hit the steel box columns and fallen to the ground.

B. The engines when impacting the steel columns would have maintained their general shape and either fallen to the ground or been recovered in the debris of the collapsed building. One alleged engine part was found on Murray Street but there should be three other engine cores weighing over 9000 pounds each. Normal operating temperatures for these engines are 650°C so they could not possibly have burned up. This is a photo of a similar sized engine from a McDonnell-Douglas MD-11 which impacted the ocean at a high rate of speed. You can see that the engine remains generally intact.(photo, http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2003/...rld/main546355. shtml)

C. When and if the nose of an airplane came in contact with the buildings 14 inch by 14 inch steel box columns and then, 37 feet beyond, the steel box columns of the building core the momentum of the wings would have slowed drastically depriving them of the energy to penetrate the exterior steel box columns. The spars of the wing, which extend outward, could not possibly have penetrated the 14 inch by 14 inch steel box columns placed 39 inches on center and would have crashed to the ground.

D. The argument that the energy of the mass of the Boeing 767 at a speed of 540 mph fails because:

a. No Boeing 767 could attain that speed at 1000 feet
above sea level because of parasite drag which doubles with velocity and parasite power which cubes with velocity.

b. The fan portion of the engine is not designed to accept
the volume of dense air at that altitude and speed.

E. The piece of alleged external fuselage containing 3 or 4 window cutouts is inconsistent with an airplane that hit 14 inch steel box columns, placed 39 inches in center, at over 500 mph. This fuselage section would be telescopically crumpled had it actually penetrated the building as depicted in the CNN video. It is impossible for it to have then re-emerged from the building and then fallen intact and unburned as depicted.

F. The Purdue video fails because no significant part of the Boeing 767 or engine thereon could have penetrated the 14 inch steel columns and 37 feet beyond the massive core of the tower without part of it falling to the ground. The Purdue video misrepresents the construction of the core of the building and depicts unidentified parts of the airplane snapping the core columns which were 12"x36". The Purdue video also misrepresents what would happen to the tail when the alleged fuselage contacted the core. The tail would instantaneously separate from the empennage (aft fuselage). Further, the Purdue video misrepresents, indeed it fails to show, the wing box or center section of the wing in the collision with the core. The wing box is a very strong unit designed to hold the wings together and is an integral portion of the fuselage. The wing box is designed to help distribute the loads of the wings up-and-down flexing in flight.

G. My analysis of the alleged cutout made by the Boeing 767 shows that many of the 14-inch exterior steel box columns which are shown as severed horizontally, do not match up with the position of the wings. Further, several of the columns through which the horizontal tail allegedly disappeared are not severed or broken. In addition, the wing tips of the Boeing 767 being of less robust construction than the inner portions of the wings could not possibly have made the cookie-cutter pattern as shown in the aftermath photos. The wing tips would have been stopped by the 14 inch steel box columns and fallen to the ground.

H. The debris of the Boeing 767, as found after the
collapse, was not consistent with actual debris had there really been a
crash. Massive forgings, spars from both the wing and horizontal and vertical stabilizers, landing gear retract cylinders, landing gear struts, hydraulic reservoirs and bogeys oxygen bottles, a massive keel beam, bulkheads and the wing box itself cold not possibly have 'evaporated' even in a high intensity fire. The debris of the collapse should have contained massive sections of the Boeing 767, including 3 engine cores weighing approximately 9000 pounds apiece which could not have been hidden. Yet there is no evidence of any of these massive structural components from either 767 at the WTC. Such complete disappearance of 767s is impossible.

III.

9. My opinion, based on extensive flight experience both as captain and instructor in large 3 and 4 engine aircraft is that it would have been impossible for an alleged hijacker with little or no time in the Boeing 767 to have taken over, then flown a Boeing 767 at high speed, descending to below 1000 feet above mean sea level and flown a course to impact the twin towers at high speed for these reasons:

A. As soon as the alleged hijackers sat in the pilots seat of the Boeing 767 they would be looking at an EFIS (Electronic Flight Instrumentation System) display panel comprised of six large multi-mode LCDs interspersed with clusters of 'hard' instruments. These displays process the raw aircraft system and flight data into an integrated picture of the aircraft situation, position and progress, not only in the horizontal and vertical dimensions, but also with regard to time and speed as well.

Had they murdered the pilot with a box knife as alleged there would be blood all over the seat, the controls, the center pedestal, the instrument panel and floor of the cockpit. The hijacker would have had to remove the dead pilot from his seat which means he would have had electrically or manually place the seat in its rearmost position and then lifted the murdered pilot from his seat, further distributing blood, making the controls including the throttles wet, sticky and difficult to hold onto.

Even on a clear day a novice pilot would be wholly incapable of taking control and turning a Boeing 767 towards New York because of his total lack of experience and situational awareness under these conditions. The alleged hijackers were not 'instrument rated' and controlled high altitude flight requires experience in constantly referring to and cross-checking attitude, altitude and speed instruments. Using the distant horizon to fly 'visually' under controlled conditions is virtually impossible particularly at the cruising speed of the Boeing 767 of .80 Mach.

The alleged 'controlled' descent into New York on a relatively straight course by a novice pilot in unlikely in the extreme because of the difficulty of controlling heading, descent rate and descent speed within the parameters of 'controlled' flight.

Its takes a highly skilled pilot to interpret the "EFIS" (Electronic Flight Instrument Display) display, with which none of the hijacker pilots would have been familiar or received training on, and use his controls, including the ailerons, rudder, elevators, spoilers and throttles to effect, control and maintain a descent. The Boeing 767 does not fly itself nor does it automatically correct any misuse of the controls.

B. As soon as the speed of the aircraft went above 360 knots (=414 mph) indicated airspeed a "clacker" would have sounded in the cockpit. The 'clacker' is a loud clacking sound, designed to be irritating, to instantly get the attention of the pilot that he is exceeding the FAA-authorized speed of the aircraft. The clacker had no circuit breaker on September 11, 2001 although it does now simply because one or more accidents were caused, in part, by the inability to silence the clacker which made decision, tempered with reasoning, impossible because of the noise and distraction.

C. Assuming, however, that the alleged hijacker was able to navigate into a position to approach the WTC tower at a speed of approximately 790 feet per second the alleged hijacker would have about 67 seconds to navigate the last 10 miles. During that 67 seconds the pilot would have to line up perfectly with a 208 ft. wide target (the tower) and stay lined up with the clacker clacking plus the tremendous air noise against the windshield and the bucking bronco-like airplane, exceeding the Boeing 767 maximum stability limits and encountering early morning turbulence caused by rising irregular currents of air.

He would also have to control his altitude with a high degree of
precision and at the alleged speeds would be extremely difficult.

In addition to this the control, although hydraulically boosted, would be very stiff. Just the slightest control movements would have sent the airplane up or down at thousands of feet a minute. To propose that an alleged hijacker with limited experience could get a Boeing 767 lined up with a 208 foot wide target and keep it lined up and hold his altitude at exactly 800 feet while being aurally bombarded with the clacker is beyond the realm of possibility. .

That an alleged hijacker could overcome all of these difficulties and hit a 208 foot wide building dead center at the north tower and 23 feet east of dead center at the south tower is simply not possible. At the peak of my proficiency as a pilot I know that I could not have done it on the first pass. And for two alleged hijackers, with limited experience to have hit the twin towers dead center on September 11, 2001 is total fiction. It could not happen.

IV.

10. No Boeing 767 airliner(s) exceeded 500 mph in level flight at approximately 1000 feet on 9/11 as fraudulently alleged by the government, media, NIST and its contractors because they are incapable of such speeds at low altitude.

11. One of the critical issues of the 'impossible' speeds of the aircraft hitting the World Trade Center Towers alleged by NIST as 443 mph (385 kts. M.6, American Airlines Flight 11) and 542 mph (470 kts. M.75, United Airlines 175) is that the VD or dive velocity of the Boeing 767 as certificated by the Federal Aviation under 14 CFR Part 25 Airworthiness Standards; Transport Category Transports of 420 kts CAS (Calibrated Air Speed) makes these speeds achievable. This is unlikely.

12. The 'Dive Velocity' VD is 420 knots CAS (calibrated airspeed)(483 mph). Some allege that this speed, 420 knots (483 mph) is near enough to the NIST alleged speeds that the NIST speeds 443 (385 kts.) mph and 542 mph (471 kts.), could have been flown by the alleged hijackers and are probably correct.

13. In fact VD of 420 knots (483 mph) is a speed that is a maximum for certification under 14 CFR Part 25.253 High Speed Characteristics and has not only not necessarily been achieved but is far above VFC (390 kts. 450 mph) which is the maximum speed at which stability characteristics must be demonstrated.(14 CFR 25.253 (b).

14. What this means is not only was VD not necessarily achieved but even if it was, it was achieved in a DIVE demonstrating controllability considerably above VFC which is the maximum speed under which stability characteristics must be demonstrated. Further, that as the alleged speed is considerably above VFC for which stability characteristics must be met, a hijacker who is not an experienced test pilot would have considerable difficulty in controlling the airplane, similar to flying a bucking bronco, much less hitting a 208 foot target dead center, at 800 feet altitude (above mean sea level) at the alleged speed.

15. Now to determine whether or not a Boeing 757 or Boeing 767 could even attain 540 miles per hour at 800 feet we have to first consider what the drag versus the power ratio is.

Drag is the effect of the air pushing against the frontal areas of the fuselage and wing and horizontal and vertical stabilizers. Drag also includes the friction that is a result of the air flowing over these surfaces. If there was no drag you could go very fast. But we do have drag and there are 2 types: induced and parasite. Assume we are going really fast as NIST and the defendants claim, then we don't have to consider induced drag because induced drag is caused by lift and varies inversely as the square of the airspeed. What this means is the faster you go the lower the induced drag.

What we do have to consider is parasite drag. Parasite drag is any drag produced that is not induced drag. Parasite drag is technically called 'form and friction' drag. It includes the air pushing against the entire airplane including the engines, as the engines try to push the entire airplane through the air.

16. We have two other things to consider: induced power and
parasite power.

Induced power varies inversely with velocity so we don't have to consider that because we are already going fast by assumption and it varies inversely.
Parasite power however varies as the cube of the velocity which
means to double the speed you have to cube or have three times the power.

17. So taking these four factors into consideration we are only concerned with two: parasite power and parasite drag, and if all other factors are constant, and you are level at 800 feet and making no turns, the parasite drag varies with the square of the velocity but parasite power varies as the cube of the velocity.

What this means is at double the speed, drag doubles and the power required to maintain such speed, triples.

The airspeed limitation for the Boeing 767 below approximately 23,000 feet is 360 kts <414 mph> or what they call VMO (velocity maximum operating).

That means that the maximum permissible speed of the Boeing 767 below 23,000 feet is 360 knots and it is safe to operate the airplane at that speed but not faster.

18. While the Boeing 767 can fly faster and has been flown faster during flight test it is only done so within carefully planned flight test programs. We can safely infer that most commercial 767 pilots have never exceeded 360 knots indicated air speed below 23,000 feet.

19. The alleged NIST speed of 443 mph (385 kts,) for American Airlines Flight 11 would be technically achievable. However the NIST speed of 542 mph (470 kts) for United Airlines Flight 175 which is 50 kts. above VD is not commensurate with and/or possible considering:

(1) the power available,* **
(2) parasite drag (NAVAIR 00-80T-80 Aerodynamics for Naval Aviators
(3) parasite power (NAVAIR 00-80T-80 Aerodynamics for Naval Aviators
(4) the controllability by a pilot with limited experience. 14 CFR Part 25.253 (a)(b)
* http://www.ntsb.gov/ntsb/GenPDF.asp?...01MA063&rpt=fa
** http://www.content.airbusworld.com/S...PW4000_FAA.pdf

20. Therefore the speed of the aircraft, that hit the World Trade Center, as represented by NIST, particularly that of United Airlines Flight 175 is fraudulent and could not have occurred.

21. One more consideration is the impossibility of the PW4062 turbofan engines to operate in dense air at sea level altitude at high speed.

The Boeing 767 was designed to fly at high altitudes at a maximum Mach of .86 or 86/100ths the speed of sound. This maximum speed is called MMO, (Maximum Mach Operating). Its normal cruise speed, however, is Mach .80 (about 530 mph) or less, for better fuel economy. (The speed of sound at 35,000 feet is 663 mph so 530 mph is Mach .7998 see

http://www.grc.nasa.gov/WWW/K-12/airplane/sound.html.)

The fan tip diameter of the PW4062 which powered UAL 175 was 94 inches, over 7 feet in diameter making it, essentially a huge propeller.
This huge fan compresses enormous amount of air during takeoff to produce the thrust necessary to get the airplane off of the ground and into the air.
At high altitudes, in cruise, where the air is much thinner and where the engines are designed to fly at most of the time, the fan and turbine sections are designed to efficiently accept enormous amounts of this thin air and produce an enormous amount of thrust.

But at low altitudes, in much denser air, such as one thousand feet, where the air is over 3x as dense as at 35,000 feet, going much faster than Vmo or 360 knots, the air is going to start jamming up in the engine simply because a turbofan engine is not designed to take the enormous quantities of dense air at high speed, low altitude flight. Because of the much denser air the fan blades will be jammed with so much air they will start cavitating or choking causing the engines to start spitting air back out the front. The turbofan tip diameter is over 7 feet; it simply cannot accept that much dense air, at that rate, because they aren't designed to.

So achieving an airspeed much over its Vmo which is 360 knots isn't going to be possible coupled with the fact that because the parasite drag increases as the square of the speed and the power

required increases as the cube of the speed you are not going to be able to get the speed with the thrust (power) available.

It can be argued that modern aerodynamic principles hold that if an aircraft can fly at 35,000 ft altitude at 540 mph (~Mach 0.8), and for a given speed, both engine thrust and airframe drag vary approximately in proportion to air density (altitude), that the engine can produce enough thrust to fly 540 mph at 800 ft. altitude.

That argument fails because although the engine might be theoretically capable of producing that amount of thrust, the real question is can that amount of thrust be extracted from it at 540 mph at 800 ft.

22. To propose that a Boeing 767 airliner exceeded its designed limit speed of 360 knots by 127 mph to fly through the air at 540 mph is simply not possible. It is not possible because of the thrust required and it's not possible because of the engine fan design which precludes accepting the amount of dense air being forced into it.

23. I am informed that the lawsuit for which this affidavit is intended is in its preliminary, pre-discovery phase. I am further informed that actual eyewitness statements cast considerable doubt on the jetliner crash claims, irrespective of the media-driven impression that there were lots of witnesses. In fact, the witnesses tend, on balance, to confirm there were no jetliner crashes. I am also informed that information that will enable further refinement of the issues addressed in this affidavit will be forthcoming in discovery including, without limitation, the opportunity to take depositions and to request relevant documentation (additional information). When that additional information is obtained, I will then be in a position to offer such other and further opinions as, upon analysis, that additional information will mandate.

24. At this stage, it cannot properly be assumed, much less asserted
as factual, that wide-body jetliners crashed into the then Twin Towers of the WTC. Any declaration that such events occurred must be deemed false and fraudulently asserted, video images notwithstanding.

Notes:
1. On any chart plotting velocity versus either drag or thrust required or power required the parasite value rises sharply after 300 kts,
2. On any chart plotting velocity versus thrust or power required the curves rises sharply after 250 kts.
3. On any chart plotting velocity versus thrust required at sea level, the curve rises dramatically above 200 kts as does the curve for power required.

I swear the above statements to be true to the best of my knowledge.

_/s/ John Olsen Lear___________
John Olsen Lear
1414 N. Hollywood Blvd.
Las Vegas, NV 89110-2006
Subscribed and Sworn to before
me this 24 day of January 2008.
/s/ Connie Jones______________
Notary Public/Appt Exp. 11/22/09
Certificate #94-2650-1
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SDuderstadt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-16-09 08:50 PM
Response to Original message
1. Jesus Fucking Christ, Spooked....
Was Lear a direct witness to the events of that day? Umm, no. His affidavit is not that he was, in fact, a witness, was in a position to the see the plane and, in fact, was actually watching either tower and specifically saw it explode with no plane hitting it. His whole affidavit revolves around his contention and "analysis" that no plane COULD have hit the towers. I am truly embarrassed for you.

And, now a challenge. Can you provide ANY witness that meets the criteria above? If you can't, you might want to seriously consider not embarrassing yourself further with this fucking goofy "no-planes" bullshit. In fact, I sincerely beg you to cease embarrassing DU with this nonsense.
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whatchamacallit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-16-09 08:58 PM
Response to Reply #1
2. The junkyard dog of the OCT
Foaming, teeth bared... If anyone is an embarrassment to DU it's you.
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SDuderstadt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-16-09 09:02 PM
Response to Reply #2
3. Was Lear a direct witness?
No. I rest my case and what's really embarrassing is the deceptive tactics of the so-called "truthers". Do you honestly think I care what you think for even a second?
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whatchamacallit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-16-09 09:04 PM
Response to Reply #3
4. Unless it took you less than a second to type your reply
the answer is yes.
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SDuderstadt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-16-09 09:06 PM
Response to Reply #4
5. "Truther Logic"...
someone informing you that they don't care what you think, means they actually do.


Bye, dude.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-18-09 02:22 AM
Response to Reply #3
29. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
SDuderstadt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-18-09 08:02 AM
Response to Reply #29
37. Do you honestly deny thousands of people saw what they saw?
Edited on Sat Jul-18-09 08:03 AM by SDuderstadt
Simple question. Are you a " no-planer" ?
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OnTheOtherHand Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-18-09 08:05 AM
Response to Reply #29
38. this isn't a new subject
I must have read tens of thousands of words here on the subject of what's feasible to have done in a plane. If you are interested in the topic, you will have no trouble finding articles by trained pilots who disagree with "this guy's technical analysis." If not, that's fine too.
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spooked911 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-19-09 10:26 AM
Response to Reply #38
54. no it's not a new subject
but his affidavit is new.

How many pilots will swear that an amateur pilot could have hit the towers in 767's going top speed?
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SDuderstadt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-19-09 10:31 AM
Response to Reply #54
56. Pilots with commercial pilot's licenses.
are NOT "amateur pilots", Spooked.
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spooked911 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-17-09 06:38 AM
Response to Reply #1
17. man, you are a broken record
if you're smart, you might realize that this embarrassment ploy is not doing anything to me.

You also might bother to take time to read what Lear wrote and then mount specific rebuttals if you can.
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spooked911 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-17-09 06:40 AM
Response to Reply #17
18. and, in general, it would be nice if someone actually took the time to read the affidavit
Edited on Fri Jul-17-09 06:40 AM by spooked911
before poo-poo-ing it. It also would be nice if someone had specific rebuttals to his points.
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SDuderstadt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-17-09 08:32 AM
Response to Reply #18
21. I DID read the affidavit...
and I do offer specific rebuttals in the form of countless eyewitnesses who actually saw what Lear claims is impossible. It's difficult to be more compelling than that.
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Old and In the Way Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-18-09 02:31 AM
Response to Reply #18
30. Here's the wierd thing Spook.
All of the apologists for the OCT must refute a known US pilot's observations. They must believe that the Saudi fake pilots were substantially better pilots than a US pilot who's giving his professionally assessment. I can't wait for the pro-Saudi team to start denigrating Lear's observations and trashing his personal record in order to support the part time terrorist flyers.
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AZCat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-18-09 10:22 AM
Response to Reply #30
44. Not all of us are dependent on a single pilot's opinion.
On September 11, 2001 I worked with quite a few pilots. In the weeks and months afterwards we discussed those events a number of times, and I am satisfied that the behavior of the four aircraft was not impossible either for the aircraft or for the pilots. Lear's "professional assessment" is just an opinion, albeit one generally better informed than most people's.
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spooked911 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-19-09 10:28 AM
Response to Reply #44
55. any of those pilots willing to go on the record about this now?
I'd be happy to see a statement from them.
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AZCat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-19-09 12:40 PM
Response to Reply #55
59. I don't know and I don't care.
Fortunately, they care as little about the opinions of internet conspiracy theorists as I do.
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defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-27-09 02:36 PM
Response to Reply #59
62. And, presumably, like you, they're here telling us how little they also care???
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AZCat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-27-09 09:17 PM
Response to Reply #62
67. I presume they have other hobbies. n/t
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defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-27-09 02:35 PM
Response to Reply #44
61. Including ascending 3,000 feet in one minute . . . ???
This isn't one pilot -- this is common sense and what looks like a concensus

among pilots.

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LARED Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-28-09 04:01 AM
Response to Reply #61
78. What is remarkable about
Edited on Tue Jul-28-09 04:01 AM by LARED
"ascending 3,000 feet in one minute"? That's about 35 MPH.
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SDuderstadt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-17-09 08:28 AM
Response to Reply #17
20. Dude...you and your fucking goofy ''no planes'' bullshit...
ARE a major embarrassment to DU. And, what's even funnier is you don't even see the sublime irony of your claim that I'm a ''broken record'' when you constantly flog your ''no planes, mini-nukes and other equally implausible'' fucking goofy bullshit endless-loop reels. It's truly a hoot to watch.

In this case, rather than face the fact that you don't have a single direct witness who corroborates your nonsense, you trot out someone who churns out this boring affidavit that attempts to show why an event directly witnessed by countless people supposedly could not have happened. Furthermore, when backed into a corner regarding this, you predictably retreat to your ''all the witnesses were fooled'' mode, piling further embarrassment upon yourself.

If what you claim is true, you would have countless direct witnesses and, more importantly, you wouldn't have to seek them out. I don't know how old you are, but if you're young enough, in roughly 38 years, you'll be like one of those truly pathetic denizens who drag wornout card tales to Dealey Plaza so they can display their embarrassing hand-lettered cardboard signs that proclaim it was actually JFK's limo driver who killed him. And, if I am still around, I'll be one of the legions of onlookers who stroll by shaking their heads at the sad spectacle you've made of yourself.

The bottom line, Spooked? You need direct eyewitnesses, not someone telling countless people they could not have seen what they know they saw. BTW, I have a great idea. Why don't you don one of those sandwich-board signs that people wear and plunge into a lunch-time throng of people at Ground Zero and try to convince them that ''No planes crashed here''. Make sure to give us a progress report from your hospital bed.
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spooked911 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-17-09 02:14 PM
Response to Reply #20
23. ooh, the affidavit is SO boring
I guess that means to didn't bother to read it.

In terms of the no planes evidence, whether you really can't comprehend it, or you just try not to comprehend it, or you pretend you don't comprehend it, I can't say.

I imagine the latter.

But I've addressed the "witnesses" over and over.

Honest people were fooled by the videos and the fly-by plane.
The rest of the witnesses were professional plants-- agents promoting the plane story.

Some people didn't see the plane when they should have but are in denial about what happened.



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SDuderstadt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-17-09 04:36 PM
Response to Reply #23
26. When you can explain how a direct eyewitness would have seen a...
video, rather than what they were directly looking at, someone might believe your tripe.

Again, i sincerely beg you to quit embarrassing DU with your "no-planes" nonsense.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-18-09 02:36 AM
Response to Reply #26
31. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
SDuderstadt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-18-09 08:17 AM
Response to Reply #31
39. "Truther Logic"...
Edited on Sat Jul-18-09 08:18 AM by SDuderstadt
If you point to the thousands of witnesses who actually saw the plane hit the tower, you are a "Bush apologist"

By the way, OAITW, everyone you call me a " Bush apologist, I'm going to call you a "bin Laden sympathizer". Fair deal?
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SDuderstadt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-18-09 11:02 AM
Response to Reply #17
45. Here's my "specific rebuttal", Spooked...
Thousands of people SAW the plane hit the tower. Unless you can explain how that many people physically saw and heard something that didn't exist, your argument is dead. Lear is left in the untenable position of trying to prove something which has already happened, couldn't have.

By the way, the fact that you aren't embarrassed by this is part of the problem.

Again, I sincerely beg you to quit embarrassing DU with this "no-planes" nonsense.
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LARED Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-16-09 10:08 PM
Response to Original message
6. Wow, an affidavit.
it must be real :rofl:
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Subdivisions Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-16-09 11:41 PM
Response to Original message
7. Lear don't know jack shit about how airplanes work! He's an idiot!
Who the fuck does he think he's fooling with all that made up shit about airliner parameters and stuff!?

Fucking nut.
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SDuderstadt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-16-09 11:46 PM
Response to Reply #7
8. Ask yourself a simple question....
why aren't all the other people who have as much, if not more, knowledge than Lear coming forward?
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Subdivisions Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-17-09 12:03 AM
Response to Reply #8
9. You know, you guys have this really fucked up thing where
Edited on Fri Jul-17-09 12:19 AM by Subdivisions
the only smart, logical, and sane people are the ones that support the OCT. And anyone that supports our view that there's more to that story than we've been told are automatically disqualified no matter their qualifications. It wouldn't matter how many come forward, nor from what scientific/technical discipline, your side will immediately disqualify every single one as a tinfoil hat-wearing lunatic conspiracy theorist nutjob "truther". That is your MO.

You see that image in my sig, dude? That investigatiion is going to happen no matter how hard you would try to discourage it. And if it reveals that you have been right all along, I will humbly concede and shake your hand. But, if it reveals that there was, indeed, more to the story, I doubt you would be as humble.
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SDuderstadt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-17-09 12:15 AM
Response to Reply #9
10. Look, dude...
I am going to ask you politely one last time to quit accusing me, directly or indirectly of being some sort of paid operative. Do you get the picture?
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Subdivisions Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-17-09 12:21 AM
Response to Reply #10
11. Thank you for asking politely. However, what I said was not an accusation.
Edited on Fri Jul-17-09 12:29 AM by Subdivisions
It was a guess. But, yes, I do indeed get the picture.

Nyahhhh-ahhhh! Whoop-whoop-whoop-whoop-whoop-whoop! Nyah-ah-ahh!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z2Zrhv2ByLE&feature=player_embedded



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SDuderstadt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-17-09 12:37 AM
Response to Reply #11
12. The problem with trying to reason with you is that...
Edited on Fri Jul-17-09 12:39 AM by SDuderstadt
you cannot fathom that there is principled opposition to the "truth movement" for no more reason than they are wrong on the facts. In fact, right after 9/11, I was probably a prime candidate for recruitment, in that I was troubled by the accounts of cellphone calls and could not account for why the towers collapsed. However, over time, it became clear that the "consensus story" was being painstakingly constructed using real science and investigative methods, while the "truth movement" kept making big promises but never producing a smoking gun. Beyond that, it became clearer and clearer that many parts of the "truth movement" were starting with the conclusion ("Bush and Cheney are evil" - I'm with you so far - "so 9/11 must've been an inside job!" - oops, you lost me) then working backwards quote mining, exercising patently obvious confirmation bias (if 100+ witnesses saw the plane hit the Pentagon, but a couple of idiots claim the plane flew over the Pentagon, then the witnesses were "fooled") and generally violating almost all (if not all) rules of Logic in the process.

Despite all that and despite what you say, I am not opposed to a new investigation, I just don't think it makes much sense when I expect the same results will be reached. However, I am open-minded, that is, I'm not saying the "truth movement" is wrong, I am saying they have failed to convince me. At the same time, I am deeply dismayed by those in the "truth movement" who can put forward no reasonable scenario in which they could be convinced they are wrong. In other words, the exact opposite of open-mindedness.

In the meantime, I suggest that you can make this a far more principled debate by, when the debate is going against you (which, unfortunately, seems to be all the time) refraining from automatically trying to smear the motivation of those of us who simply disagree with you on the facts. If that's not acceptable, I would propose the following: every time you accuse us of being paid or unpaid shills, we'll accuse you in return of working for al Qaeda. It's really up to you.
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Subdivisions Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-17-09 12:51 AM
Response to Reply #12
13. Well, I'll be damned...
I learned some new shit about you. Helps me a little better with where you're coming from. And, just so you know, I'm trying very hard to see it the way you do. I'm not given to making up and then devoutly following crazy notions. I just don't see it the way you do despite my best efforts. Does that make me crazy? I don't know. I don't feel crazy. It just still doesn't look right to me.

As for my "guess" before, you have to sit back and think about it looking at yourself from our side of the issue. You've spent years here rarely venturing outside this forum. You spend hours a day here defending a government produced and funded report from a faction of the government apparatus that, if our side of the issue is right, is potentially some of the very people that choreographed the event. The fox investigating his own taking of the hen, so to speak. You LOOK like it's your JOB to do what you're doing here.

You frequently accuse our side of not being logical when you yourself are being illogical. You spend inordinate amounts of time, and there are several of you doing this, to defend the OCT against those of us whom you deem to be troofer fucktards and illogical creatures. You're illogical in the very act of even taking a moment of your time to defend the OCT against those you believe to be illogical and crazy. Logically, it would seem you would have better things to do. So, you LOOK like you're on a mission.
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SDuderstadt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-17-09 01:14 AM
Response to Reply #13
14. WTF?
Edited on Fri Jul-17-09 01:33 AM by SDuderstadt
You frequently accuse our side of not being logical when you yourself are being illogical. You spend inordinate amounts of time, and there are several of you doing this, to defend the OCT against those of us whom you deem to be troofer fucktards and illogical creatures. You're illogical in the very act of even taking a moment of your time to defend the OCT against those you believe to be illogical and crazy. Logically, it would seem you would have better things to do. So, you LOOK like you're on a mission.


Well, I thought we were getting somewhere until you went here.

1) I accuse your "side" of not being logical because it's the truth and I typically point out the logical fallacy by name.

2) If I'm being illogical, I'd love for you to point out specifically where. By name please.

3) Taking issue with goofy bullshit is NOT defending the OCT. For example, if the "official story" is that a defendant was driving 80 miles an hour and the "truth movement" claims he was driving 180 miles an hour and I point out defendant's car is simply not capable of 180 MPH, I am NOT defending the "official story".

4) I have never ever referred to a "truther" as a "troofer fucktard", however, I have, indeed, accused a number of them of being illogical because they ARE illogical.

5. The amount of time I spend here is not "defending the OCT" as much as it is being deeply embarrassed by the real nonsense posted here on a regular basis (mini-nukes, "no-planes", controlled demolition, etc.) and I sometimes shudder to think what an occasional visitor might think.

Last, but not least, I think if the "truth movement" would quit referring to those of us who, again, take issue with the "truth movement" on the facts, as government shills, OCTabots, paid disinfo agents, etc., you might just find the dynamic would change.

One last thing, as far as the 9/11 Commission is concerned, I bristle when the "truth movement" indiscriminately smears all the members and when I rise to the defense of Hamilton, Ben-Veniste, Kerrey, Roemer and Gorelick, I see them smeared further as traitors and lumped together in an "all politicians are scum" mode. I also react similarly when NIST is baselessly attacked. I honestly have a very hard time believing that the career civil servants who make up the bulk of NIST would somehow turn a blind eye to the murder of nearly 3,000 citizens merely because "their jobs would be on the line" or the Bush administration somehow co-opted them into supporting a neo-con agenda. Similarly, if I am not mistaken. the Interim Executive Director of NIST on 9/11 was actually a holdover from the Clinton administration. As I stated previously, I have a hard time believing some sort of Jekyll/Hyde dichotomy based upon the party in power.
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Subdivisions Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-17-09 01:49 AM
Response to Reply #14
16. Yawn...
1), 2), 3) ...

...heard it all before.

I sometimes shudder to think what an occasional visitor might think

Really, dude? From what they might see in the 9/11 Dungeon, a place suspected/expected to be occupied by lunatics and set aside for that purpose??? REALLY???



I have never ever referred to a "truther" as a "troofer fucktard", however, I have, indeed, accused a number of them of being illogical because they ARE illogical.

I said: "You spend inordinate amounts of time, and there are several of you doing this, to defend the OCT against those of us whom you deem to be troofer fucktards and illogical creatures." Clarification: The YOU in this sense, as I indicated when I said "...and there are several of YOU doing this...", is referring to all of YOU here in this forum, not just you. You personally may not have used those terms, but others on your side of this issue have.

...I bristle when the "truth movement" indiscriminately smears all the members...

What I said: "...from a faction of the government apparatus..." - not all the members as you falsely stated.

I honestly have a very hard time believing that the career civil servants who make up the bulk of NIST would somehow turn a blind eye to the murder of nearly 3,000 citizens merely because "their jobs would be on the line" or the Bush administration somehow co-opted them into supporting a neo-con agenda.

Amazing what the fear of something like getting an envelop of anthrax mailed to you; or the fear of your small plane crashing; or the fear of losing your government contract/funding and not being able to make your mortgage; or the fear of suddenly feeling the urge to shoot yourself in the head...twice...can do to convince you to keep your mouth shut.


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Old and In the Way Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-18-09 02:46 AM
Response to Reply #16
32. Interesting who's not posting on this thread.
Except for one throwaway post, we have the usual designated AA OCTer weighing in on a subject that he has no expertise to question. Except some unknown, unsworn 'witness' who proves Lear (under oath) wrong.

Just to recap:

At the peak of my proficiency as a pilot I know that I could not have done it on the first pass.

Shit, we got 3 losers from Saudi Arabia that hit the targets on one pass...obviously, SA pilots are much better than US pilots.

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procopia Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-17-09 09:42 PM
Response to Reply #12
28. I beg to differ
"However, over time, it became clear that the "consensus story" was being painstakingly constructed using real science and investigative methods..."

The NIST report is Bush science, not real science. See link:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=125x256953
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Subdivisions Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-17-09 01:15 AM
Response to Original message
15. Visual comparison... (Dial-up warning)
Edited on Fri Jul-17-09 02:00 AM by Subdivisions
The TU-154 and the Boeing 757-222 are of similar size and passenger capacity.











The rest can be viewed here: http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/31924017/ns/news-picture_stories/displaymode/1247/?beginSlide=1&beginChapter=1&beginTab=1

And Shanksville...









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spooked911 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-17-09 06:43 AM
Response to Reply #15
19. your point being what exactly?
IMO, the shanksville crater was a hoax.
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Old and In the Way Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-18-09 02:55 AM
Response to Reply #19
33. Obviously, the point is Russian aircraft make bigger holes and leave more debris
than Boeing jets. Boeing aircraft are much more 'tidy' when they nose in or hit buildings.
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Ohio Joe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-17-09 09:40 AM
Response to Original message
22. I got a dozen emails in the last two weeks telling me I've won various lotteries
I think they are bullshit as well.

I find it extremely sad that you use the rantings of a man no longer in control of his mental facilities to try and further this madness... sad but not surprising.

Do you also believe his stories about advanced civilizations on Venus? or the alien colonies on the moon?

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spooked911 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-17-09 02:16 PM
Response to Reply #22
24. This was a legal statement.
The question is-- can you refute his points?

I know you want to cast doubt on the source, but see if you can refute all of his points.

Thanks.
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Ohio Joe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-17-09 04:30 PM
Response to Reply #24
25. Would you then ask me to refute the moon colonies?
I find it interesting that you have zero issues with credibility when you hold someone up to support this insanity yet... Everyone that witnessed it live... all idiots and liars. No more explanation needed, your good with that.

A science denying douchebag... very credible.
An obviously mentally ill old man.. very credible.
A resident of NYC... liar... idiot.

What is it exactly, that makes them more credible then the people that were in and around NYC on 9/11?

Also, because something gets notarized, does not make it true. All it says is that the person that signed the document showed ID that matches the signature. I'm unsure what significance you place on that being done, assuming it really was done.
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spooked911 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-18-09 06:36 AM
Response to Reply #25
35. you seem to be letting your emotions cloud your reasoning
or you are purposefully twisting what I am saying for your own ends.

I asked you for a critique of what he wrote.

I never said ALL the witnesses were idiots and liars. In fact, I never called them idiots. I said they were fooled by a clever psy-op.

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Ohio Joe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-18-09 12:36 PM
Response to Reply #35
48. Untrue
You said:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=125x253851#254148

Post 72

"2) the live witnesses who really saw a plane saw a fly-by plane that was going around. Other witnesses were fooled by TV. Some people saw no plane hit the tower, (e.g. David Handschuh) but thought they missed it because everyone talked about the plane they saw on TV."

Yeah... thats not calling people idiots... Liars? That is exactly what you are calling ALL of them, I'm not twisting anything.

As for a critique, I don't need to.

If I told you that your dog keeps telling me your part of a master race of pod people trying to take over the world. Also, Zoltan, the magma lord from the depths of the Earth, will soon be going to war with the pod people for domination of the planet. Which, is a good thing as the magma people will treat us much better. If I said the same in front of any microphone placed in front of me and on any web page that would print it but also told you... Your B37 is being caused by a lack of contiguous space on available packs (based on your high level qualifier) as specified by your primary space allocation even though even though your on your fourth extent. Even though the packs have enough space as specified in your secondary space allocation (which is allowed to be non-contiguous), they need to also find enough continuous space as specified in your primary allocation for a pack to be considered available. By the way, did you know that the TV show, The X-Files was really a documentary? Every episode was completely true. Same with Gilligan's Island.

On the other hand, you have pretty much every other main-framer on earth telling you... nah, just bump up your space and you'll be fine.

What would you do?

a - Take the word of the crazy person that was once an expert.
b - Take the word of sane people that are experts.
c - Learn everything about mainframes so you could refute the crazy person.

Me? I'm just gonna take the word of the sane people.

Tell you what though, you refute everything said and done in every episode of Gilligan's Island and I'll consider looking into this.

Or maybe... just maybe, you could try finding someone sane to promote "no plane" non-sense... nah, thats crazy.
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spooked911 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-19-09 07:11 AM
Response to Reply #48
50. honest people can be fooled -- doesn't mean they are idiots or liars
as far as the rest, I would say that if there is one thing that John Lear knows knows well, it is aeronautics.

What you seem to have trouble grasping is the fact that many people who are experts are undoubtedly afraid to speak out on this issue.
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SDuderstadt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-19-09 08:57 AM
Response to Reply #50
51. More of your "everyone is afraid to speak up" bullshit, Spooked...
Edited on Sun Jul-19-09 08:57 AM by SDuderstadt
Again, I ash. Is there ANY conspiracy theory so goofy that even YOU wont embrace it?

I sincerely beg your to quit embarrassing Du with your nonsense.
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Ohio Joe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-19-09 10:58 AM
Response to Reply #50
58. And you know that,,, how?
There is no doubt that at one time he did know a ton about aeronautics. Have you ever known someone that goes senile? Lots of things they knew are still there but they are no longer connected the same way and un-connected things become related. Fantasy becomes reality and reality... well, it just goes away. You really should look into it.

Sigh... they are all afraid... afraid of what? afraid of who? What shadowy organization is it that strikes such fear into the hearts of every video, aeronautical and engineering expert on the planet? How did they silence all of the experts in Russia? China? N. Korea? Iran?

No, if it was so easy to prove no planes, there are any number of countries that would have done so with glee years ago.
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defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-27-09 02:49 PM
Response to Reply #58
64. People in other countries have been working to unravel 9/11 . . .
Some of the first evidence I saw was by the French --

I think you have to be "senile" to look at the videos of demolition and be in

denial about it --

or to not question planes that go thru steel as though they are simply still in

regular flight --

and, disappearing planes -- planes, passengers, interiors which leave no trace.

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Ohio Joe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-27-09 06:04 PM
Response to Reply #64
65. Please, link to these experts proving no planes - nt
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defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-27-09 10:09 PM
Response to Reply #65
68. Please link to the experts proving there were planes --
Edited on Mon Jul-27-09 10:11 PM by defendandprotect

no one knows what happened 9/11, as yet --

NO PLANES is a theory -- and quite more likely theory than PLANES which disappear!

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Ohio Joe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-27-09 10:44 PM
Response to Reply #68
71. No planes is no more a theory then creationism
And in typical dishonest fashon when asked to present even one shred of evidence to back up an insane claim, the no planer dances away from it. You claimed there are foriegn experts with proof for no planes, can you provide this or not?
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defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-27-09 10:58 PM
Response to Reply #71
72. No one said that there were "foreign experts" with proof of no planes . . .
Edited on Mon Jul-27-09 10:59 PM by defendandprotect
you're confusing your own posts --

What I said was that other countries were working on the 9/11 conspiracy --

and many of them took the lead, waking up Americans, btw.

If and when "No planes" is proven, I'm sure you'll be the first to know.

Meanwhile, let's hope more of the planes don't disappear!

And -- bye!




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SDuderstadt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-27-09 11:36 PM
Response to Reply #72
73. Prediction
Pretty soon D&P will have placed nearly everyone here on ignore.
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Ohio Joe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-27-09 11:45 PM
Response to Reply #73
75. I thought D&P already had me on ignore
I think I liked it better that way.
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SDuderstadt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-27-09 11:47 PM
Response to Reply #75
76. We call it....
"faux ignore". When you catch her at it, she claims she just recently took you off ignore.
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Ohio Joe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-27-09 11:43 PM
Response to Reply #72
74. No, it is you who are confused
In response to my post #55 where I was asking how foreign experts were being intimidated, you responded with

"People in other countries have been working to unravel 9/11 . . .Some of the first evidence I saw was by the French --"

I thought perhaps you were actually talking about the topic at hand, instead you were babbling about... what? If it is not evidence of no planes, why did you even respond to me? WTF are you talking about then? and... why should I care?
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defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-27-09 02:45 PM
Response to Reply #48
63. Come on . . . saying that people were deceived isn't saying they are idiots . . .
Some people definitely seem to have seen something --

that's the middle deception which everyone is unsure of yet as to what exactly

it was -- but the videos show none of the characteristics of an aluminum plane

hitting anything -- rather it's an aluminum plane continuing on at regular speed

as if thru air.

OTOH, common sense certainly tells us that an aluminum plane doesn't fly thru steel

beams -- 14 X 14 at 39 inch center to center -- without breaking apart externally.

Neither does any Boeing fly above 530 mph at sea level and not shake itself apart.

Supposedly one of these planes also ascended 3,000 feet in one minute!

What of that do you really believe?

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Ohio Joe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-27-09 06:08 PM
Response to Reply #63
66. Saying someone saw no planes hit the towers...
but were convinced they did see it by TV is saying they are idiots. Large numbers of people witnessed it live... you really think they were all fooled into believing something else by TV? Not one person was able to retain their own memory of what they really saw? Complete nonsense.
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defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-27-09 10:17 PM
Response to Reply #66
69. No -- it says that people can be fooled. Granted some were in on the deception . . .
actors in the street and questionable reporters there set up to interview them --

and photographers who seem to have been given film with planes in them.

We don't know what people actually saw "live" -- there are people who saw

"no planes" hit --

There are people who saw the Devil's face in the smoke --

There are people who saw -- and even photographed -- what looked like an angel

or mothman, depending on how you look at it.

There are people who think a UFO was captured in the videos.


Now, think back to the Zapruder film and Dan Rather ... what did he say he saw?

Was he an idiot or was he simply dishonest, or was he fooled?




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SDuderstadt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-27-09 10:23 PM
Response to Reply #69
70. "there are people who saw "no planes" hit -- "
Name one, D&P. Otherwise, this is just more of your bullshit.

Again, I ask. Is there ANY conspiracy theory so goofy that even YOU won't believe it? I sincerely beg you to quit embarrassing DU with your bullshit.
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AZCat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-27-09 11:54 PM
Response to Reply #63
77. Fortunately, professionals aren't dependent...
on your "common sense" to solve these sort of problems. Instead of such a limited technique, they use something called "engineering". You may have heard of this?
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SDuderstadt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-17-09 04:51 PM
Response to Reply #24
27. You need to refute the innumerable witnesses that actually saw...
the plane hit the tower, Spooked. Your rationalization that they were all somehow fooled is embarrassing to everyone here.

I sincerely beg you to quit embarrassing DU with your "no-planes" bullshit.
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spooked911 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-18-09 06:38 AM
Response to Reply #27
36. give me a witness who directly saw the plane go into the tower from the south side
Edited on Sat Jul-18-09 06:44 AM by spooked911
--someone who didn't make a video, as they are suspects.

And give up the embarrassment ploy-- it's not working and it's really getting old.
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SDuderstadt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-18-09 08:21 AM
Response to Reply #36
40. Spooked...
there's no way around it. Your goofy "no-planes" theories and claims are a absolute embarrassment to DU.
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spooked911 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-19-09 07:05 AM
Response to Reply #40
49. do you have a witness or not?
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SDuderstadt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-19-09 09:01 AM
Response to Reply #49
52. yeah, there are thousands of them...
which is why your claim is ludicrous, Spooked.

Again, I sincerely by your to quit embarrassing Du with your nonsense.
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spooked911 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-19-09 10:20 AM
Response to Reply #52
53. but you can't quote one?
in terms of embarrassing DU, imo, you're doing worse here
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SDuderstadt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-19-09 10:57 AM
Response to Reply #53
57. Start with this one, Spooked....
Edited on Sun Jul-19-09 11:00 AM by SDuderstadt
Eyewitness research into crash
From: Barry Drogin (barry@notnicemusic.com)
Sent: Mon 9/10/07 7:07 AM
To: debunk911@hotmail.com


Since shortly after 9/11, I have maintained a "Personal September 11
Page." I was an eyewitness to the second twin tower crash, standing
at Battery Place. I had self-evacuated from my workplace at 2 Broadway, and was standing next to a colleague at the time. Rumor on the street was that the entire top of the first hit tower may have been blown off, and I was staring very intently at WTC 1 to determine if that was correct. I could glimpse, through the smoke, the rest of the tower above the fire line, and I was pointing at the tower, concentrating very closely on the scene, when the second plane came over my shoulder and slipped into the second tower. Along with many others, I screamed, ran, and went into some form of shock.


http://www.debunking911.com/readers.htm

And there are plenty more where that came from.
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Old and In the Way Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-18-09 03:01 AM
Response to Reply #24
34. Obviously, they can't.
But witnesses who are not vetted, we should believe. Odd, isn't it? There are tons of unknown witnesses, none who'll go on record, that support the OCT. Why is that? But real people who put their credibility on the line - we shouldn't believe them.
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SDuderstadt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-18-09 08:24 AM
Response to Reply #34
41. You don't need to vet...
Edited on Sat Jul-18-09 08:24 AM by SDuderstadt
the thousands of people whose eyes were trained on the first tower and, thus, witnessed the plane hit the second tower.
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FormerOstrich Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-18-09 09:51 AM
Response to Original message
42. Wow....
SDuderstadt & Spooked you kill me. I swear you neither attempt to hear the other. You two are an endless loop and as most endless loops are just nothing but a waste of resource (but at one time might have been a potentially useful algorithm).

Mr Lear does not seem to be saying a plane did not hit the towers (maybe he does but I missed it). I think his position is 767s didn't hit the towers and if they did they could not have been solely piloted by inexperienced hijackers.

First, my gut reaction is.. it would seem if there were something other than 767s (specifically the flights specified) so much planning/covering/blah/blah would be involved it could not have been successfully executed as such.

However, my next thought if you can scientifically prove 767s didn't hit the towers then there is no reason to prove hijackers didn't not fly them there.

Finally, the man (Mr Lear) certainly sounds like he has a compelling case. However, I have no subject matter expertise to know if it is all just bs or if there are valid points herein.

Because I do not believe we know all there is to know about the events of that day AND I do lean towards the belief that the probability of shenanigans is great I would very much like to read critiques by SMEs (that is plural) on this and many other such observations/documentation/affidavits/etc.

What does seem like a monumental waste of time is the pointing fingers, name calling, repeating/regurgitating from those that have about as much knowledge as myself (or less for heavens sake).

Ok..loop on my friends

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SDuderstadt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-18-09 10:13 AM
Response to Reply #42
43. I' m pretty sure American Airlines knows precisely what...
model plane they lost that day.

You also might want to look into Spooked's claim that the thousands of people who saw the second plane hit the tower were actually "victims of a psy-op!!
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FormerOstrich Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-18-09 11:51 AM
Response to Reply #43
46. SDuderstadt...

I' m pretty sure American Airlines knows precisely what...

model plane they lost that day.



I agree.



You also might want to look into Spooked's claim that the thousands of people who saw the second plane hit the tower were actually "victims of a psy-op!!



Why? I suspect he believes what you say but why would I need to look into that any further?


If you are satisfied with the conclusions of the investigation AND the explanations, as presented, why do you read/post on this forum (i.e. dungeon)?
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SDuderstadt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-18-09 12:18 PM
Response to Reply #46
47. Because of the huge amount of misinformation from "truthers"
Duh.
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whatchamacallit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-19-09 02:02 PM
Response to Reply #47
60. Sure, that must be why...
:eyes:
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