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demodewd Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-19-03 12:00 AM
Original message
Thermite and the Core Collapse
Lacking reports of prominent explosions, the ultimate key in the matter is the reports of the "pools of molten steel." The issue being that between the molten steel reports and the relative silence, Thermite is the next best candidate for sabotage. It is vitally important to realize that if the metal had been heated by ANY conventional fuel, it would – by the dictates of physics - have to be heated from below - ONLY! Again, jet fuel, burning in open air, will reach roughly 1,100 degrees - insufficient to actually MELT steel. Certainly it can weaken the steel, but not melt it down. The WTC jet fuel did not burn in open air, thus a lower temperature may reasonably be assumed.
We may be certain that - in the best case scenario - the jet fuel didn't find a "magical" equivalent of a burner mechanism or "Blast Furnace," BELOW the steel. Hence, a device on the order of a Thermite charge is the ONLY POSSIBLE EXPLANATION as to how the molten metal could be found at the bottom of the debris, as opposed to being melted OVER or AMONG the debris.
Anyone who has seen a military Thermite grenade melt through the block of a jeep engine - in approximately ten seconds - will attest to the melting properties of Thermite.
ONCE AGAIN – in the bizarre legacy of 9-11 - No questions were asked!
The laws of physics tell the ultimate tale. “When you eliminate the impossible, whatever remains – however improbable – must be the truth!" - Doyle
The center-section supporting structure of the buildings broke apart as it collapsed. Therefore, an argument for ‘mechanical energy transmission’ doesn’t hold up. It’s not the same as hitting a nail with a sledge-hammer. A ‘shattering’ sledge-hammer would not carry the force to strike, deform and ‘heat’ a nail. In other words, the force of the collapse couldn't/didn't melt the bases of the core columns.
The south WTC tower is most representative of the collapses. Remember that it lost it's “cap”-

- therefore the energy from the structure above would – in theory - be adequately diverted so as NOT to induce a continued - and total - vertical collapse of the remainder of the structure, below. In theory, the “cap” should have torn loose and independently fallen. However, if there had been an independent - and nearly simultaneous - collapse of the core, the collapse would continue - vertically. The “cap” tilted by approximately 22 degrees, but did not fall off; it collapsed – "in formation” - with the rest of the structure. The simultaneous "fall" of the two sections tells a story, by itself. The 'center of gravity' of the "cap" abruptly found a vertical path to the ground! The most probable reality being that the core collapsed, inducing the tilt of the "cap."
If the "cap" had tilted first, the mechanical tilt of the “cap” should have relieved a major portion of the purely vertical stress from above; alleviating any tendency for the immediate lower structure to “pancake;” as was witnessed. It is not difficult to imagine the floors collapsing over a period of time - but NOT simultaneously!
With the outer walls being vertically self-supporting, any interior dynamics (action) would be hidden from view. Remember that the shattering of the outer walls progressively followed the collapse of the building core.
It is worth noting that there was an expected delay in the core collapse, as evidenced by the videotapes and pictures illustrating heavy free-falling external debris gaining a slight lead on the building collapse.
The basic mechanics of the collapses offer another major clue - BOTH buildings were damaged so as to create a segmented "cap." Yet with a radical difference between the mass (size) of the "caps," both towers collapsed - identically!
In the extreme, the individual floor "plates" might have been able to let go (“peeling” from around the columns and the outer walls), but - as a minimum - the lower (ground level) segments of the heavy steel inner columns should have been left standing, somewhat vertically, like stray swizzle-sticks. Yet, clearly something major also happened at the very base of the building - a search warrant is required to find the strongest vertical components in the structure - but not so with the weakest!
Given that the lower columns were radically thicker steel, and obviously stronger, some of the columns should have still been standing – in some significant number. Yet, from the post-collapse photographs, the outer walls appeared to be the strongest vertical sections; which they were not. Yet, the lower outer walls were left standing; not the more massive “core” columns. The magnitude of both vertical and lateral forces - even considering location - doesn't make sense; not even in the context of 'chaos.'
It IS certain that not all of the columns collapsed at their base, evidenced just by the blessed group of survivors caught in the remains of the sole-surviving stairwell. More... http://home.comcast.net/~skydrifter/collapse.htm
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wtmusic Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-19-03 12:29 AM
Response to Original message
1. Wholly unsupported drivel
"might have been able to", "should have relieved", "would be adequately relieved"...

what a bunch of crap. The physics going on in the WTC including temperatures and stresses are unknown and unknowable. Every analysis that actually uses numbers (wonders!) confirms that the collapse of the towers is entirely consistent with failure of support trusses due to heating.

:tinfoilhat:
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demodewd Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-19-03 09:06 AM
Response to Reply #1
4. Numbers?
What numbers?
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acerbic Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-19-03 01:41 AM
Response to Original message
2. All the published reports are lies and deception
...except when a few of them happen to call most likely molten aluminum "molten steel": in that case it's God's Own Truth beyond suspicion and merits megabytes of theories built on it. :eyes:
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demodewd Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-19-03 11:53 AM
Response to Reply #2
5. re:"most likely"
Peter Tully, president of Tully Construction of Flushing, N.Y., told AFP that he saw pools of “literally molten steel” at the World Trade Center.
The molten steel was found “three, four, and five weeks later, when the rubble was being removed,” Loizeaux said. He said molten steel was also found at 7 WTC, which collapsed mysteriously in the late afternoon. -American Free Press (9/03/02)
The remarks of Mark Loizeaux, president of CDI of Phoenix, Maryland, add credence to a large, lower explosion: "pools of molten steel were found...at the bottoms of the elevator shafts of the main towers, down seven levels... three, four, and five weeks later, when the rubble was being removed" Coming from two well informed,ultra credible sources it is safe to assume that these two men "most likely" know what they saw. :wow:
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acerbic Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-19-03 12:42 PM
Response to Reply #5
6. "Well informed, ultra credible sources"...
Edited on Fri Sep-19-03 12:59 PM by acerbic
Peter Tully, president of Tully Construction of Flushing, N.Y., told AFP that he saw pools of “literally molten steel” at the World Trade Center.

Anybody seen that CLAIM originate anywhere but that "American Free Press"? No? So your "well informed, ultra credible source" CLAIMING that Tully told so is only "American Free Press". More neo-nazi crap to believe from the "well informed, ultra credible" "American Free Press":

http://www.americanfreepress.net/Cultural_Communism/Cultural_Commies_Attack_Patrio/cultural_commies_attack_patrio.html
http://www.americanfreepress.net/Books/Huddled_Masses_Overwhelm_U_S_/huddled_masses_overwhelm_u_s_.html
http://www.americanfreepress.net/Editorial/Ed_Issue_5_3/ed_issue_5_3.html

www.google.com/search?hl=en&ie=ISO-8859-1&q=%22american+free+press%22+site%3Asplcenter.org&btnG=Google+Search
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demodewd Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-19-03 01:09 PM
Response to Reply #6
8. re "crap"
Is it any surprise that corporate owned main stream media would ignore such information? What sources are legitimate to you? AFP is well t o the right in some respects but that does not negate everything they report as being false. I notice you have a penchant for doing this... After all what is Time Magazine?? Neo-Conservative Zionist "crap". Well yes it is in some great respect. That doesn't mean that I necessarily refute every factoid that is presented.
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acerbic Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-19-03 01:24 PM
Response to Reply #8
10. I don't believe any sources uncritically
...and I give ABSOLUTELY ZERO credibility to neo-nazi scum. It doesn't mean that I believe the opposite of what they spew to be true either: I just disregard their spew.
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demodewd Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-19-03 02:51 PM
Response to Reply #10
15. So...
.. AFP went after the story and that's the response they received? Or did they just fabricate it? Why haven't Loizeaux and Tully sued AFP if they were misquoted or if the information was fabricated? But they didn't. I certainly would have. With the possible implications involved you would think that Loizeaux and Tully would attempt to extricate themselves from the misinformation. That is if was misinformation.Maybe its better to let it lie...and someday it may go away like all that steel that was hustled off to China.
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acerbic Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-19-03 03:03 PM
Response to Reply #15
16. Why haven't they sued?
Why haven't Loizeaux and Tully sued AFP if they were misquoted or if the information was fabricated?

Perhaps because most people don't bother to sue some two-bit kook website operators?

BTW, are you saying that you think everything AFP spews but hasn't been sued for is true?
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demodewd Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-19-03 09:01 PM
Response to Reply #16
22. Not hardly.
Not hardly.:smoke:
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OudeVanDagen Donating Member (256 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-19-03 12:48 PM
Response to Reply #5
7. Step off!
" ... ultra credible sources ... "

Tully?

How much $ did he make - and how much $ will he make - from 9/11?



" ... well informed ... "

Tully?

Yo, this is New Yawk you're talkin 'bout. It's not WHAT you know - it's WHO you know.




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demodewd Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-19-03 01:15 PM
Response to Reply #7
9. Yo!..
So what political/financial gain does Tully have in stating this? Obviously it is not the kind of news that a well circulated news source is going to latch onto.Which does prove your point. It is who you know and what the WHO wants to know.
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OudeVanDagen Donating Member (256 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-19-03 01:42 PM
Response to Reply #9
11. Mo money, mo money?
Tully gains nothing from his 'steel' misnomer. Has it all already; sweetheart deal with the City, couple of unions in tow, geez you name it ... calling aluminum steel isn't going to make his pockets jingle any more than they already do.



Back to the masses: probably the best proof of what the molten masses actually are was evidenced in the independent unedited unenhanced and unredacted photos and videos taken by the news pool cameras and shown worldwide. Even before controlled technical evaluation and analysis could be done anyone who ever attended a 2nd grade science class could see masses were not steel, just by the way they were extracted from the zones and manipulated onto and later off of the flat bed trailers.

I guess you need clues ... presence of oxidation ... magnetic?
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demodewd Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-19-03 02:17 PM
Response to Reply #11
13. re: Tully
Oh...so you're now the expert on the Tully personal financial motivations. I'd like to see those photos...any links? When were they taken? 4-5 weeks after the collapse or earlier?
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OudeVanDagen Donating Member (256 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-19-03 03:59 PM
Response to Reply #13
18. Are you kidding?
"When where they taken? 4-5 weeks after the collapse or earlier?"

Are you kidding? The live feed and video equipment supplied, maintained and operated by the news pool was never turned off ... ran 24/7. Every news organization worldwide had live feed. Pool photographers moved escorted but unrestricted. Only someone living under a rock wouldn't know that.
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demodewd Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-19-03 06:44 PM
Response to Reply #18
21. So
...you saw some video that doesn't appear to be molten steel? Did your irrascible Highness witness all the extractions? I sincerely DOUBT IT.What experience do you have in identifying molten steel via video presentation? Eh?
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plaguepuppy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-25-03 10:18 AM
Response to Reply #18
24. Your ability to make up facts on demand
...continues to amaze me.

"Every news organization worldwide had live feed."

"Pool photographers moved escorted but unrestricted."

I don't suppose you could be bothered to provide a source for these remarkable statements? No, facts are obviously far beneath you, since you have never yet bothered to give any kind of sources or links for your many absurd claims.

As I recall your play book calls for another round of insults and repetition of the same statement and demanding that those who disagree somehow disprove your unsourced claims.

Lets here again about those wonderful "policies and protocols" that were followed in exquisite detail in the handling of all the evidence from the WTC sites - or have you moved on to a new round of lies?
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reorg Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-19-03 04:54 PM
Response to Reply #13
19. http://911research.wtc7.net/wtc/evidence/rubblefires.html
that's supposed to be the molten steel:

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OudeVanDagen Donating Member (256 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-19-03 08:42 AM
Response to Original message
3. Questions for you
1. Regarding lines 1 & 2 " ... the ultimate key in the matter is the reports of the 'pools of molten steel'..." and lines 12 & 13 " ... how the molten metal could be found at the bottom of the debris, as opposed to being meted OVER or AMONG the debris ..." Questions; a) In which collapse zones and at what levels where the molten masses recovered? b) What were the weights of the recovered masses? c) What is the composition or primary elements of the masses?

2. Regarding line 41 "With the outer walls being vertically self-supporting .." Question; What is the source of this information?

3. Regarding lines 47 & 48 " .. -BOTH buildings were damaged as to create a segmented cap" ... " Question; What is the estimated weights of the 'caps'?
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NecessaryOnslaught Donating Member (691 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-19-03 02:06 PM
Response to Original message
12. Yes there were large explosions BEFORE each tower began to collapse
"As more and more and more and more and more emergency vehicles descended on the World Trade Center, I hear a second explosion in WTC 2, then a loud, low-frequency rumble that precipitates the unthinkable -- a collapse of all the floors above the point of explosion. First the top surface, containing the helipad, tips sideways in full view. Then the upper floors fall straight down in a demolition-style implosion, taking all lower floors with it, even those below the point of the explosion. A dense, thick dust cloud rises up in its place, which rapidly pours through the warren of streets that cross lower Manhattan."

"I decide it's time to get my daughter, who was taken by the parents of a friend of hers to a small office building, six blocks farther from the WTC than my apartment. As I dress for survival: boots, flashlight, wet towels, swimming goggles, bicycle helmet, gloves, I hear another explosion followed by a now all-too familiar rumble that signaled the collapse of WTC 1, the first of the two towers to have been hit. I saw the iconic antenna on this building descend straight down in an implosion twinning the first."

http://www.planetary.org/html/society/advisors/sept11account.html




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ramblin_dave Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-19-03 02:23 PM
Response to Original message
14. Molten steel vs molten aluminum
Can anyone cite any definitive source as to whether the molten metal was steel or aluminum? I posted a thread on this topic and some claims were made but no source was cited.

The comments made by eyewitnesses do claim molten "steel" but this could be an easy to understand error.

What I would like is some document produced by the collapse investigators that states what was found, how much was found and where it was found.
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OudeVanDagen Donating Member (256 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-19-03 03:51 PM
Response to Reply #14
17. Two choices
Choice 1) History 101: Follow the Money

There are absolutley NO secrets being kept about investigations into the WTC incidents of 9/11 or about the results available to date. None. The info's out there; but no one at DU wants to do their own homework ... everyone just wants to click to the answers. Copy, cut paste. Where are the self starters?

All anyone has to do is look at history. Remember Watergate? Just like Watergate, "follow the money" and look into where the 9/11 allocations and grants went. 'Follow the money' to the colleges and labs that received the funds and read their summaries on the web or send for complete copies. Yeah there may be copy and postage and handling fees, but the FOI Act has the door opened wide.

Choice 2) Visit one of the engineering websites where the WTC incident is discussed in forums by those actually involved with recovery and investigation. All your gonna get here is hollow nonsense, smoke, mirrors and bomb raygun thermite or aliens.

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RH Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-19-03 05:05 PM
Response to Reply #17
20. absolutley NO secrets?
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LARED Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-20-03 06:42 AM
Response to Original message
23. Well
at least the person that wrote this drivel tell folks right up front it's speculation. From the opening sentences;


The more one reads about the World Trade Center collapse, the more skeptical they should become of the “official” account. Given the lack of any remaining "hard" evidence, the following presentation is speculation, but well worth reading and thinking about.

I read it, and it wasn't worth it.It hurts my head to think about that much crap piled so deep.
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demodewd Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-31-04 05:37 PM
Response to Original message
25. D.P. Grimmer calculations
Posted by webmaster on 2003/11/23 22:41:22 (4714 reads)

Calculations on the Possible Use of Thermite
to Melt Sections of the WTC Core Columns
by D. P. Grimmer
Version 1.0, November 23rd 2003
Abstract
Anomalies involving the collapse of WTC buildings on 9-11 are discussed from the perspective of possible controlled demolition implosion rather than of aircraft impact and fuel-fire damage. Considered is the possible use of thermite to melt sections of the columns of the WTC towers inner cores, thus aiding in their collapse. This paper will discuss the structure of the WTC core columns, and estimate the mass of metal to be melted; calculate the sensible and latent heat energy needed for melting this mass; discuss the nature and specific energies of the thermite reaction; estimate the mass and volume of thermite necessary to provide the energies for melting; and discuss the possible locations where such thermite could be placed to cause melting, both internal and external to a core column.




Introduction
Of the events of 11 September '01, perhaps the most dramatic were the collapses of the WTC towers. Re-played repeatedly on TV, the images of the collapsing towers and their pyroclastic clouds of debris are seared into our memories.

What immediately struck some observers, this author included, is how much these collapses resembled a controlled demolition. Indeed, this was the first reaction of V. Romero of New Mexico Tech, until he recanted days later . There has been much discussion on the internet of the observed anomalies associated with the WTC building collapses (including the delayed collapse of the unstruck WTC7). Interesting sites can be found at www.serendipity.li, www.americanfreepress.net, www.misternet.org, www.911-strike.com, www.plaguepuppy.net, www.whatreallyhappened.com and many others ( a google search is always useful).

One site deals directly with aircraft impact and fuel-fire physics . The very anomalous case of the WTC7 building collapse was archived at Ref. (3); especially interesting are the observations by the inspection engineer at WTC7 of evidence for vaporized steel. As always, information about controversial events like 911 must be approached with some caution, and are not to be taken at face value. Careful analysis and appraisal is necessary. The internet has gained a reputation as a refuge of "conspiracy theorists," but recent events (e.g., the falsehoods told by US officials leading up to the Iraq war) have shown that "reputable" media are not to be trusted. They may themselves be regarded as purveyors of "official" conspiracy theories. This present paper hopes to achieve some level of objectivity about a very controversial subject.

Total objectivity is of course impossible. Subjectively, for this author, several subevents of the WTC collapses stand out: the reported seismic spikes associated with the collapses; the observed near free-fall times of collapse; the pyroclastic clouds of debris; and the pools of molten steel found in the basement of the WTC tower complex, steel still warm weeks after 9-11. Analysis of the seismic spikes indicate that the seismic spikes correlate with the collapses themselves rather than any pre-collapse explosion .

Calculations done by the author correlated the collapse energies with the seismic signal of explosions at a quarry in the vicinity of the seismic observatory. These calculations indicate that the seismic spikes of the WTC events represent energies close to those of the collapses themselves (see Appendix A for these seismic energy correlation calculations). A sole video clip purported to show, by video image shaking, evidence of a pre-collapse WTC2 explosion is not conclusive. A video with shake-free periods for several minutes before and after collapse is not available. Therefore, wind flutter has not been disproved as a cause of camera shaking. A second video from another perspective is not available to show pre-collapse shaking temporally correlated with the first video. The existence of such a second video from an independent source would make such video evidence more credible . From these observations, the author has concluded that there is no firm evidence of pre-collapse explosions that left seismic signatures.

.

The observed near free-fall times of the WTC towers (and WTC7) were a dramatic signature of a controlled demolition. (The articles at
http://members.fortunecity.com/911 are a valuable resource for presenting and then challenging the "official" explanation for WTC collapses). Measured times are all around 10 seconds, which is close to calculated free-fall time, indicating the tower floors fell without much impediment. They essentially fell into air . The theory put forth by T. Eagar of MIT and other "establishment" engineers is that while no steel members actually melted or failed, the floor assemblies, bolted at their joists to the outer walls and inner core structures, did fail . The floor joists attachment bolts were weakened and gave way, twisting sideways and allowing the initial floor to "unzipper" itself all the way round and collapse to the floor below. The remaining floors then pancaked all the way down. Never mind that floor joist cross-members, placed to resist twisting, and additional support structures were not included in the MIT/FEMA/NOVA calculations and presentations (nor was the inner core collapse mechanism explained at all).

Consider the following: if the pancaking effect caused the total building failure, why is it that no video of either of the WTC collapses shows any sign of stutter between floor collapses, which should have been very apparent especially in the first few floors of collapse when the speed of gravitational collapse was small? Consider also that apologists for the official conspiracy theory propose that 30% of the gravitational collapse energy was necessary to create the pyroclastic cloud of debris: that is, in their own analysis, this energy came out of the gravitational energy. This means that the time of fall would have been slowed further than what was observed. When a body of mass m falls from a height h, acted upon by gravitational acceleration g, it converts its potential energy PE = m x g x h into kinetic energy KE = (1/2) x m x (v exp2). Here h = (1/2) x g x (t exp2), t = time of fall, and v =g x t, where v = velocity. Removal of 30% of the PE to pulverize concrete essentially reduces the amount of energy available from falling, effectively reducing the gravitational acceleration to something less than g.

Substituting, in the above equations we have (1.0 - 0.3) x PE = 0.7 x PE = m x g' x h, where PE, m and h are as before and g' = the effective gravitational acceleration. Hence, comparing terms for PE, g' = 0.7 g. The time of collapse under g' will also increase. If we let the effective collapse time be t', then comparing terms for constant h, (1/2) x g x (t exp2) = (1/2) x g' x (t' exp2) =
(1/2) x 0.7g x (t' exp2). Hence, (t exp2) = 0.7 x (t' exp2), or (t/t') = SQRT (0.7) = 0.837. Or, t' = 1.195 t.

Now the observed time t = 10 seconds (a free fall time, the fastest possible time under g = 9.8 m/sec/sec = 32 ft/sec/sec = 32 ft/s exp2). For the cloud debris creation to absorb 30% of the gravitational energy, the observed time of fall would be 10s x 1.195, or almost 12 seconds. This long a collapse time was observed by no one. Clearly, there are serious flaws in the official explanation/conspiracy theory.

The implication from the above is that there were major energy sources other than gravitational involved in the WTC towers collapses. Certainly that is the conclusion of J. Hoffman in his thorough discussion of the north WTC tower dust cloud . By calculating the major sources and sinks observed, particularly the sink of the pyroclastic cloud expansion, Hoffman establishes that a large amount of energy had to be available to drive that expansion, in a (minimum) range of 2,706,000 kWh to 11,724,000 kWh (see his Summary table). Hoffman does not propose an energy source to balance that sink. In Appendix B, an estimate, for discussion purposes only, of the amount of thermite-equivalent to provide this energy source is discussed. It is large, but physically possible.

A discussion of the melted steel found at the base of the WTC complex, not explained by any official, forms the bulk of the remainder of this paper. The following discussion explores the possibility of whether it is possible to get sufficient volume of a relatively slow-reacting chemical compound, like thermite, either on or inside the inner columns to melt a section of them or otherwise weaken them to allow for the inner core to collapse. As Mark Loizeaux of Controlled Demolition, Inc., commenting on the pools of molten steel he observed at the bases of the towers' elevator shafts, said: "If I were to bring the towers down, I would put explosives in the basement to get the weight of the building to help collapse the structure" . Controlled Demolition, Inc., incidentally was the company contracted to remove the debris from both the WTC and from the 1995 bombing of the Murrah building in OKC.

To summarize so far: the discussion in the text above and in Appendix A indicates that the energy of the seismic signal (best viewed as a semi-logarithmic plot) and the gravitational collapse are very close to being the same. This coupled with the fact that there is only one short video clip allegedly showing shaking before collapse of one of the towers leads an objective observer to conclude that there is no actual proof that the seismic "spike" signal is nothing more than building collapse. This is not to say that the seismic signal is 100% guaranteed to be non-explosion related, just that there is no firm evidence so far for the alleged massive explosion. That is, this is not an area on which to stake a lot of credence. The seismic event must be regarded as a "red herring" unless a second, longer video showing the same behavior appears.

The free-fall times and pools of molten steel are entirely different matters. They are a matter of public record, observed by many individuals. So we have evidence of molten steel in the basement; the FEMA report saying molten steel was not to blame, just weakened floor joist bolts; collapse times close to free fall; no real record of a massive explosion (although numerous claims of sounds of smaller explosions and observations of demolition squibs). The immediate conjecture supported by direct observation is the following: controlled demolition, characterized by a (relatively) non-explosive, huge energy release necessary to melt (some) steel. M. Rivero of whatreallyhappened.com and others have proposed the use of thermite, familiar to those of us who had the high school chemistry course with an impressive thermite demonstration. So the question arises: can one get enough thermite close enough to melt sections of the inner core columns, as part of a controlled demolition scenario? The following calculations in this paper indeed do show that it is possible (and I stress possible). Until simple chemical reactants like thermite can be discarded there is really no need to invoke the use of highly speculative and sophisticated devices like thermobaric bombs and scalar EM weapons.

Melting of WTC Inner Core Columns
Evidence of molten steel was found at the very base of the WTC towers, and is a matter of public record. This present study is by no means exhaustive. It is intended as a first attempt to test the possibility that the core columns could have been melted by a known chemical compound. Thermite was chosen as the reactive chemical compound because it is well understood, and is used commercially to weld steel parts (e.g. train rail sections in situ). Other more sophisticated chemical compounds with higher energy densities, by mass and/or volume, could be used in future calculations. Broad assumptions will be made, to get rough estimates of relevant parameters.

Structure of WTC Columns and Their Metal Mass
The best on-line discussion resource found for these calculations was at Ref. (10). According to this source the inner core consisted of from 44 to 47 box columns (the exact number and layout is not known; the architectural firm had not released the construction drawings). The dimensions of the columns reduced in size with increasing height, changing to I-beams above the 85th floor. The above website article assumes (generously) that each core box column has the following (average) X-section: 12"wide x 36"deep x 2' thick. The article goes on to calculate the X-sectional area of steel as 192 in2. However, this is in error in that the corners are double-counted, giving a larger x-section than there actually is. If w = box column width, d = depth, and t = thickness, then the X-sectional steel area is given by

A = x 2. For d = 36", t = 2" and w = 12", then

A = <36" x 2" + (12"-2 x 2") x 2> x 2 = 176 in2 = 1.222 ft2.

Floor height was 12ft, so we choose for discussion sake, a 12' high box column in these calculations. Note that multiple floors could have had thermite-type compounds placed there. Also, no more than a foot portion, rather than a full 12 ft of column would be necessary to collapse that floor. Also, complete melt of a column portion is not necessary to cause collapse. So, per floor, per column there is a steel volume V = 12' x 1.222 ft2 = 14.67 ft3. Also, note that the internal X-sectional area of a box column is given by

Aint = x , and the internal volume by Vint = 12' x x .

Here, Vint = 12' x <36"-2 x 2"> x <12"- 2 x 2">/(144 in2/ft2) = 12' x 1.778 ft2 = 21.333 ft3.

The internal volumes will be re-examined later as a possible space to place the thermite.

The website also mentions that the largest box columns used at the core bases had the dimensions of 16" wide x 36" deep x 4" thick. It is not known where exactly the molten steel, that puddled in the WTC basement, originated in the towers. The melt could have occurred some what higher in the columns (where "average" box columns would have been), or at the base where the "largest" box columns were. Molten material would flow down the various WTC shafts to the lowest point possible, 6 stories (some 72') below ground level. Applying the same formulae as above, we have for these "largest" columns, A= <36" x 4" + (16" - 2 x 4") x 4"> x 2 = 352 in2 = 2.444 ft2. Note that this happens to be twice the area as for the "average" box column assumed above. Again, for a 12' column, V = 12' x 2.444 ft2 = 29.328 ft3. Also, here, the internal volume is Vint = 12' x <36' - 2 x 4"> x <16' -2 x 4">/144" = 18.667 ft3.

In summary, we have for a 12 ft. high core box-column, for a

12" wide x 36"deep x 2" wall thickness (hereafter referred to as an "average" box column), that it has 14.67 ft3 = 0.415 m3 volume of steel, and 21.33 ft3 = 0.604 m3 of internal volume; and
16" wide x 36" deep x 4" wall thickness (hereafter referred to as a "largest" box column), that it has 29.328 ft3 = 0.832 m3 of steel and 18.667 ft3 = 0.529 m3 of internal volume.

Sensible and Latent Heat Energies Needed for Melting a Core Column Section
Knowing the volume of steel involved, we next turn our attention to calculating the energy needed to melt a core column section. We decided to use values for the element iron rather than steel for the following pragmatic reasons:

steel is mostly iron (Fe);
whatever steel is chosen, may be the wrong kind and would be contested: Fe is a given and known quantity, whereas there are many steels;
Fe values found were readily available and reasonably self-consistent;
except for stainless steels, the thermal properties of steel are relatively close to Fe, although the mechanical properties may certainly differ more.
For Fe we will use the following values:

Density = 7874 kg/m3
Melting point = 1811 K = 1538 C
Specific heat = 25.1J/mol K = 449 J/kg K = 0.449 kJ/kg K
Latent heart of fusion = 13,800 J/mol = 2.47 x 10+5 J/kg
Latent heat of evaporation = 347,000 J/mol = 6.21 x 10+3 kJ/kg
mol = gm mole equivalent = 0.0558 kg for Fe

For a 12 ft high core Fe column, we have

for the "average" box column, 0.415 m3 x 7874 kg/m3 = 3267.71 kg Fe; and
for the "largest" box column, 0.832 m3 x 7874 kg/m3 = 6551.17 kg Fe.
Taking 300 K as "ambient" temperature on 9-11, then the temperature difference up to the melting point of Fe is given by

1811 K - 300 K = 1511 K (give or take a few degrees K).

Hence, the energy needed to raise a 12 ft high Fe column to its melting point temperature is given by

for an "average" column, 3267.71 kg x 1511 K x 0.449 kJ/kg K = 2.22 x 10+6 kJ; and
for a "largest" column, 6551.17 kg x 1511 K x 0.449 kJ/kg K = 4.44 x 10+6 kJ.
To actually melt the Fe at 1511 K, we need to provide the latent heat of fusion:

for "average" column, 3267.71 kg x 2.47 x 10+2 kJ/kg = 8.07 x 10+5 kJ; and
for "largest" column, 6551.17 kg x 2.47 x 10+2 kJ/kg = 1.62 x 10+6 kJ.
Thus we see that the sensible heat energies involved are almost a factor of 3 times larger than the latent heats.

Hence, for the total amount of energy needed to melt a 12 ft high Fe column, we need:

for "average" box column, (2.22 + 0.81) x 10+6 kJ = 3.03 x 10+6 kJ; and
for "largest" box column, (4.44 + 1.62) x 10+6 kJ = 6.06 x 10+6kJ
Energies of the Thermite Reaction
An iron oxide/aluminum "thermite" mixture consists of 23.7% Al, 74.7% Fe2O3 by weight, in the reaction

Fe2O3 + 2 Al => Al2O3 + 2 Fe + 849 kJ/mol.

Thus, 849 kJ of energy are released for every g-mole-equivalent (mol) of Fe2O3 that reacts with 2 mol of Al.

For Al, with a density of 2.699 g/cm3, there are 26.98 g/mol.

For Fe2O3, with a density of 5.24 g/cm3, there are 159.70 g/mol.

So then, 159.70 g of Fe2O3 + 53.96 g of Al (213.66 g total) produces 849 kJ of energy, or 3.974 kJ/g = 3.974 x 10+3 kJ/kg (Note that this gives the proper % component mixtures by weight).

For an infinitesimally compacted powder mixture, this would occupy a volume of 159.70g x (cm3/5.24 g) + 53.96 g x (cm3/2.699 g) = (30.48 + 20.0) cm3 = 50.48 cm3.

A separate analysis of a CuO/Al thermite mixture (used to weld copper parts) indicates a powder packing fraction of 0.82 (82%) can be achieved. Let's assume a powder packing fraction of 0.82. Hence, our Fe2O3/Al thermite mixture would occupy not 50.48 cm3, but 61.5 cm3.

Thus the physical density of our densely-packed Fe2O3/Al thermite mixture is

213.66 g/61.5 cm3 = 3.474 g/cm3 = 3.474 x 10+6 g/m3 = 3.474 x 10+3 kg/m3,

and our energy density (per volume) is given by

849 kJ/61.5 cm3 = 13.805 kJ/cm3 = 1.3805 x 10+7 kJ/m3.

Thus to melt a 12 ft high Fe column, we need

for an "average" column, (3.03 x 10+6 kJ)/(3.974 x 10+3 kJ/kg) = 0.7625 x 10+3 kg = 762.5 kg of thermite. This would occupy a volume of 762.5 kg/(3.474 x 10+3 kg/m3) = 0.219 m3. Note that this volume of thermite is less than the internal volume Vint calculated earlier, 0.604 m3. Actually, the internal volume of the "average" box column could be filled with 0.604 m3/0.219 m3 = 2.76 times more than needed to do the job. Alternatively, the column does not require as high a packing density ( i.e. <0.82) and yet be able to load a sufficient charge of thermite mixture to cause melting
for a "largest" column, (6.06 x10+6 kJ)/(3.974 x 10+3 kJ/kg) = 1524.9 kg thermite. This would occupy a volume of 1524.9 kg/(3.974 x 10+3 kg/m3) = 0.439 m3. Note that this volume of thermFite also is less than the earlier calculated Vint = 0.529, but would require a moderately high packing density, approximately > 0.82 x 0.439/0.529 = 0.68.
Other Locations Where Thermite Could Be Placed to Cause Core Box Column Melting
In the preceding section, the amount of thermite needed to cause melting was calculated, and compared to the internal volume available. Just as insulation in building walls is introduced by means of relatively small holes drilled through walls, so could thermite have been placed into the interiors of the core box columns. For the "average" columns this would certainly work, since there is ample volume to overcharge with a low packing density (>0.5). The "largest" columns could be filled in the same way, although some way to "settle" the compound powders might be necessary to achieve a packing density from a pour to be > 0.68.

Rather than fill the interior of a column with chemical compound, what if the thermite compound was applied to the outside of the column, under a layer of "fire-proofing" protective cladding/thermal insulation? How thick would an exterior layer need to be applied?

(a) For an "average" box column, if T is the thickness of the applied outside layer of thermite compound, it would have a X-sectional area given by

Acoat = x 2, where d = 36" and w = 12" as before.

This can be rewritten as Acoat = 2 x <2 x Texp2 + T x (d + w)>

For a 12 ft = 3.658 m column, the volume of the coating of thickness T is given by

Vcoat = 2 x 3.658 x <2 x Texp2 + (d + w) x T> = 0.219 m3, or

2 x Texp2 + (d + w) x T = 0.219 m3/ (2 x 3.658 m) = 0.0299 m2, or

2 x Texp2 + (d + w) x T -0.0299 m2 = 0. This is in the form of a quadratic equation, where the solution is given by

T (in meters)= {-b + SQRT(bexp2 - 4 x a x c)}/2 x a, where here

a = 2, b = (d + w) = 12" + 36" = 48" = 1.219 m, and c = -0.0299 m2. Substituting,

T = {-1.219 + SQRT<(1.219)exp2 - 4 x 2 x (-0.0299)>}/(2 x 2). Simplifying,

T = {-1.219 + SQRT<1.486 + 0.2395>}/4 = {-1.219 + SQRT<1.725>}/4 =

= {-1.219 + 1.313}/4, or

T = 0.0236 m = 0.93", which is less than 1" of coating for the "average" column.

(This solution can be verified by substitution in the original equation for Vcoat).

(b) For a "largest" box column, here Vcoat = 0.439 m3 and (d + w) = 16"+36" = 1.321m.

So, 2 x Texp2 + 1.321 x T = 0.439m3/(2 x 3.658 m) = 0.0600, or

2 x Texp2 + 1.321 x T - 0.0600 = 0. So, using the quadratic solution again,

T = {-1.321 + SQRT<(1.321)exp2 - 4 x 2 x (-0.600)>}/(2 x 2). Simplifying,

T = {-1.321 + SQRT<1.745 + 0.48>}/4 = {-1.321 + SQRT<2.225>}/4 = {-1.321 + 1.492}/4, or

T = 0.04275 m = 1.683", which is less than 1-3/4" of coating for the largest column.

In short, if a coating slightly less than 2" thick of a thermite coating were applied to the outer surface of any box column, that is sufficient chemical compound to melt that column section. A protective, insulating and cosmetic/disguising layer (e.g. fiberglass/foam) 1" or less would also be helpful.

Conclusions
In this paper we have attempted to establish the amount of thermite that would be necessary to melt a box column at or near the base of the WTC towers' cores, to see if the amount necessary was physically feasible, or would require an unrealistic amount sure to attract detection before its use. We have used thermal parameters for iron, and assumed thermite as the chemical compound. The analysis is thus imperfect, since the structural steel used may have slightly different properties, requiring more (or less) of the chemical compound. A different, more sophisticated compound may have required even less volume than has been calculated here.

Still the implications are clear: such a melting of a section of all the inner core box pillars is possible, using relatively simple technology. Such compounds could have been applied to the interior or the exterior of even the largest of these columns in a surreptitious manner, to accomplish the task of melting and collapse. The amount necessary for complete melting of a segment of even the largest box column was calculated, and found possible. Of course complete melting was not necessary to cause total failure: a lesser amount of a thermite-like compound could have been used to raise the temperature of the steel to a point where the columns would fail before melting, although some melting must have occurred to account for the steel pools.

It is pure speculation if, how, and when this was done. The columns would have been most easily filled during the initial construction phase, but this requires belief in a foresight and 30-40 year "master plan" that may be difficult for many to think possible. (Many buildings are constructed with ultimate demolition in the design, to make way for future construction in urban areas. Usually, the building design includes cavities for controlled demolition explosive placement. The non-availability of WTC tower blueprints makes it difficult to access this possibility).

However, there have been undoubtedly a number of opportunities under the guise of maintenance: many stories exist about problems with the "insulation" adhering to the steel support structures of the WTC towers. Also, the first attack on the WTC towers in 1993, in the basement of the complex, offered an opportunity for access and "repair" to demolition experts and construction personnel. Thermite is a relatively safe compound, requiring high temperature to initiate reaction - a magnesium fuse is commonly used. We will probably never know exactly what sequence of events unfolded to culminate in the WTC collapses of 11 September 2001.

Acknowledgments
The author wishes to acknowledge discussions with A.K. Dewdney, J. King, J. Longspaugh, B. Mayeux, J. Russell, R. Stanley, S. Walker and other friends and associates of SPINE. Of course, the author takes full responsibility for the content of this work; any errors are his alone.



Appendix A: WTC Seismic Energy Correlation Calculations
F. Moscatelli of Swarthmore College has provided figures on the energy releases involved in the WTC tower collapses in an article by the BBC . The article reports the gravitational energy for both towers plus sundry other collapses as 6.8 x 10+11 J, +-25%. Hence, for one WTC tower, the gravitational energy involved can be approximated by ½ x 6.8 x 10+11 J = 3.4 x 10+11 J = 94,400 kWh +- 25%. (Here, using an energy unit conversion site is handy ). This figure for single tower collapse seems about right, and agrees with the figure of 100,000 kWh used at various other sites; an estimate of 160,000 tons of steel, concrete, etc., per tower yields a value of 85,000 kWh (J. Russell, personal communication); FEMA's Building Performance Assessment Report indicates about 111,000 kWh per tower (see J. Hoffman's dust cloud analysis at Ref.(13)); see also various websites listed in the Introduction). Hence, a first order calculation suggests that the amount of gravitational energy involved in the collapse of a WTC tower is on the order of 94,400+-23,600 kWh.

This is also the amount of energy that can be roughly back-calculated from a Palisades observatory WTC collapse seismic event of 2.2 (average) magnitude, and compared to a Palisades recorded quarry explosion seismic event "calibration" of 1.5 (average) magnitude. The quarry explosions were caused by the detonation of 80,000 lbs = 40 tons of ammonium nitrate/fuel oil (ANFO), equivalent to approximately 0.30 x 40 = 12 tons of TNT = 13,946 kWh, where 1 ton ANFO = 30% of 1 ton of TNT energy equivalent, and 1 ton TNT = 4.186 x 10+9 J = 1,163 kWh. If we take the ratio of the magnitudes of the seismic energies for the WTC collapse and for a quarry explosion, we have the ratio of (10+2.2)/(10+1.5) = 158.5/31.6 = 5.02. Hence, the seismic energy of the WTC event compared to a quarry explosion can be given roughly by 5.02 x 13,946 kWh = 70,009 kWh. This is just at the lower limit of the calculated gravitational collapse energy calculated above, 70,800 kWh. Also, consider that some portion of the towers' concrete mass that was pulverized into suspended fine dust would not appear in a seismic spike signal. Some estimated 90,000 tons of the estimated 160,000 tons of material per tower was concrete (i.e. 56% of tower mass was concrete, while 44% was steel, etc.). Assume, for discussion's sake, that half the concrete per tower was converted into fine dust that did not contribute to the immediate seismic signal (i.e. 28% of tower mass). Subtracting this 28% of tower mass would decrease the "average" figure of 100,000 kWh of total gravitational energy per tower to 68,000 kWh. Again this is close to the crudely calibrated value of 70,009 kWh. Although these calculations involve arguable assumptions, the author only wishes to demonstrate that claims the observed seismic spike indicated a massive pre-collapse explosion are not supported by the mathematical analysis. The conclusion the author arrived at is that the seismic spikes observed were certainly of the same magnitude as, and not separate from, the WTC towers' gravitational energies.

It has been the main thrust of this paper that explosions leaving a seismic spike would not have been necessary to bring down a structure like a WTC tower. A slower reaction would still cause core failure. Whether a chemical reaction takes place over a period of say, 1 second, or 1 millisecond, the energy released is the same. Since power = energy/unit-time, then a reaction taking 1 millsecond would have 1000 times the power as a reaction taking 1 second, but still release the same amount of energy. This is the difference between a blast and a melt. The melt would not (necessarily) leave a seismic signature.


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demodewd Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-31-04 05:43 PM
Response to Reply #25
26. link?
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BeFree Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-31-04 06:15 PM
Response to Reply #26
27. Dewd
Outstanding. Thermite coulda done it, something (wasn't the jets) took down those towers. I hope enough folks get to read your latest. Thanks dewd.
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Jose Diablo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-31-04 09:38 PM
Response to Reply #26
28. Thats it
Are any samples of that molten steel around? Would thermite leave a chemical signature in the molten steel?


:yourock:
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LARED Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-31-04 10:10 PM
Response to Reply #25
29. Small problem with these calculations
Now the observed time t = 10 seconds (a free fall time, the fastest possible time under g = 9.8 m/sec/sec = 32 ft/sec/sec = 32 ft/s exp2). For the cloud debris creation to absorb 30% of the gravitational energy, the observed time of fall would be 10s x 1.195, or almost 12 seconds. This long a collapse time was observed by no one. Clearly, there are serious flaws in the official explanation/conspiracy theory.

There is a serious flaw in the calculation as the observed fall time IS around 12 seconds.

See here

http://www.plaguepuppy.net/public_html/video%20archive/Day%201%20-%20WTC%20Collapse%2002.avi
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demodewd Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-01-04 12:13 AM
Response to Reply #29
30. Whaaaa?
You can accurately tell from that video? You must have superhuman penetrating vision to be so assured of 12 seconds. Are you a Superman sibling? Anyway.... Maybe you can find some error in the calculations for feasibility of thermite application in relation to column thickness and steel(iron) melting points.Here's a donut and a cup of coffee to accomodate your musings. :donut:
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Lavachequirit Donating Member (65 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-01-04 01:49 AM
Response to Reply #30
31. Gee, I thought
Edited on Sun Feb-01-04 01:59 AM by Lavachequirit
...you needed a definite end point to know how long the falls were.

And the endpoint is somewhere in that big dust cloud, but how do you decide when?

For example:

http://www.plaguepuppy.net/public_html/video%20archive/Woolworth_1.mpg

Do you see any good reference points on the tower that you can follow all the way to the ground? No, we see the top disappear early in the collapse into a huge cloud of debris never to be seen again. Which point in that debris cloud do you track to measure this mythical time, or are we supposed to just sort of squint at the cloud and decide where the remains of the top ought to be as it settles?
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LARED Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-01-04 07:26 AM
Response to Reply #31
33. You do need a start and an end point
Do you beleive the fall time is ten about seconds?
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LARED Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-01-04 07:25 AM
Response to Reply #30
32. You can't
Edited on Sun Feb-01-04 07:51 AM by LARED
tell accurately what the fall time was from looking at the video. But it is obvious that it takes longer than 10 seconds. I am guessing around 12 sec.

Not being 10 secs presents a huge problem for the author of this tripe as it kicks a major premise out from under his theory. That being that the gavatational energy converted into the energy that busted up the towers is missing. It's not.
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Lavachequirit Donating Member (65 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-01-04 11:29 AM
Response to Reply #32
35. I am guessing around 12 sec.
Boy, this is getting way too precise and quantitative for me: "But it is obvious that it takes longer than 10 seconds. I am guessing around 12 sec."

And based on these guesses you can calculate how much energy was involved! Madame Cleo has nothing on you dude - can you tell me if my girlfriend is pregnant too?

That was a pretty energetic "busting up" too:



But you're really completely sure that it's just gravity at work, plus or minus a few seconds, huh? And you can really pick a meaningful "end point" when there's no indication that the top of the building even exists as a discrete entity any more? Hell, "end point" isn't even a well defined concept when the entire building has been blasted to rubble.

And you're perfectly sure that those things that look like explosions are just "normal gravity stuff"?
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LARED Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-01-04 04:29 PM
Response to Reply #35
36. Did you view the video?
on PlaguePuppy site? He is a renowned expert according to some in this forum. :)

If you did watch the video it is painfully obvious that at the ten second mark the building is not nearly fully collapsed. After watching a number of times, 12 seconds is a quasi-quantitative time to reach the end point. What it is not, is 10 seconds.

For the author of the article this presents a huge dilemma. The entire article is based on the notion that the towers collapsed in nearly free-fall time and additional energy was required to explain the collapse.

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LARED Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-01-04 08:33 AM
Response to Reply #25
34. More BS????
As Mark Loizeaux of Controlled Demolition, Inc., commenting on the pools of molten steel he observed at the bases of the towers' elevator shafts, said: "If I were to bring the towers down, I would put explosives in the basement to get the weight of the building to help collapse the structure"

No where could I find Loizeauz making this comment about finding the so called molten "steel."

A Lexus Nexis search found nothing, and a google found only him making this comment in a different context.
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