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John Doe II Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-18-05 04:22 PM
Original message
911: Have there been more ...?
Here a list of all planes that were somehow suspicious on 911:
(not mentioned is the well known case of Delta 1989)

Two Delta Airlines aircrafts:
“Officials from both the government and the airline industry tell TIME Magazine that a knife-like weapon
was found
(in these aircrafts) later that day (911),
although neither plane took off due to the nationwide grounding”.

http://www.time.com/time/nation/article/0,8599,175953,00.html
http://news.independent.co.uk/world/americas/story.jsp?story=95895


Unknown Flight:
“(O)ne official disclosed that another weapon was discovered on
at least one other aircraft, owned by a fourth airline.
The government official refused to name that carrier.”

http://www.time.com/time/nation/article/0,8599,175953,00.html


Continental Airlines Flight from Newark:
Retractable knives <(…) of the same type used in the four successful hijackings [br />were found taped to the backs of fold-down trays.
The source did not give details”.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/september11/story/0,11209,601830,00.html


American Airlines Flight 43, bound from Boston to Los Angeles:
(S)imilar knives were found stashed in the seats”.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/september11/story/0,11209,601830,00.html
http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/showcase/chi-0109230432sep23.story?coll=chi-newsspecials-hed

“American Airlines flight 43 was cancelled at the last minute last Tuesday because of technical problems.”
http://www.guardian.co.uk/september11/story/0,11209,601430,00.html


A Flight from Atlanta:
“Investigators also are scrutinizing knives found on an airplane (…) that was due to depart from Atlanta, a source close to the investigation confirmed.”
http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/showcase/chi-0109230432sep23.story?coll=chi-newsspecials-hed


Air Canada Flight 792, bound for New York:
(T)wo X-Acto knives were placed aboard an Air Canada plane (…)
The knives, described as box cutters, were discovered on September 14”.

http://archives.cnn.com/2001/US/10/15/inv.air.canada/index.html


American Airlines Flight 160, bound from San Diego to New York:
“A box-cutter knife has been discovered under a seat cushion on the morning of Sept. 11. (… The flight) was unable to take off before federal authorities halted commercial air traffic.”
http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/showcase/chi-0109230432sep23.story?coll=chi-newsspecials-hed


United Airlines Flight 23, bound from New York to Los Angeles:
“After the plane was boarded, United Airlines officials told passengers that (the flight) had been cancelled.
Three males travelling refused to disembark.
The argument with a member of the flight crew became so heated that the crew member called airport security.
But before security arrived, the men had vanished, said the source,
who spoke on the condition of anonymity. “

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2001/09/14/national/main311250.shtml


I mean it’s pretty amazing.
What’s going on on 911?
Was it simply on fashion to bring boxcutters and knives into planes that day?
Why was never anybody investigated connected to this planes?
It shouldn’t be too hard to figure out the passenger of a seat where a knife was found?
Why is there apparently no interest in figuring out what was supposed to happen to theses planes?
Does anybody know of further cases

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tngledwebb Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-19-05 10:37 AM
Response to Original message
1. Good work, JD II, again.
And shows how many old questions remain unanswered or unasked by the various official investigations, and by US MSM.

Re box-cutters-

1.They would be expected to set off alarms, and do not seem too dangerous anyway. The broken neck of a bottle of wine would seem as threatening, and easier to smuggle.

2. Were box-cutters mentioned as weapons only by B. Olson on Flight 77?

3. Were they the best weapon the hijackers could think of, considering the scale and planning of the operation?

4. High-jacking even one plane using box-cutters seems improbable, never mind two, three or more.

Your points raise many other possibilities, as you note. Ie ,were more hijackings planned and thwarted? Or were knives (or stories of knives) planted to make the public believe this to be so? Or, as seems more likely, were the other 'hijackers' merely patsies, unwitting or not, and/or part of the war-games...etc.

The 9/11 Omission report should have a few pages on box-cutters, or whatever other weapons were reportedly used ...where, what pages?
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Abe Linkman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-19-05 12:15 PM
Response to Reply #1
2. I'm sure one of the OCT supporters here can answer all your questions.
I assume you must think there are serious, knowledgeable people here who
still don't "get it" that 9/11 was an inside job and that nearly everything you've been told by the media and bushco Disinformation agents is false.
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tngledwebb Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-19-05 12:34 PM
Response to Reply #2
3. OCT 'ers could be helpful on this-
Many have placed great faith in the 9/11 report, and some of them have read it carefully. Where's the chapter on boxcutters and/or other weapons used? I can't access it at present. Anybody?
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Abe Linkman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-19-05 01:37 PM
Response to Reply #3
5. They can't be "helpful" & besides, they don't like questions like that!
Besides, I don't think it's accurate to continue calling them "OCT'ers".
Do you really believe they "support" the OCT? I don't. If they do, it's only out of expediency, not belief. They know better than most of us do, that the whole story is a lie. They may not know any more of the details than we do, but I'm confident they know the OCT is a complete lie and that 9/11 was an inside job. They have OTHER reasons for being.
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MercutioATC Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-29-05 01:16 AM
Response to Reply #5
12. Riiiiight....
:tinfoilhat:


It couldn't be that some people just disagree with you, could it?
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Abe Linkman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-29-05 02:13 PM
Response to Reply #3
14. The only one who has responded...punted. Why?
Who knows (wink wink)? Why does baloney reject the meat grinder?
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Old and In the Way Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-19-05 12:52 PM
Response to Original message
4. Is there a definitive list of commercial airliners that were involved in
the simulated exercises that day?

It would be interesting to see if these planes were, in fact, part of the exercise. And if 11, 175, 93, and 77 were part of the exercise, well, that would put a whole new light on the "terrorists", wouldn't it?
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John Doe II Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-28-05 04:51 PM
Response to Reply #4
6. No
That's why I'm so curious in the other thread to find out any information about all the eleven planes that were considered hijacked on 911. One could wonder as well which 20 planes were expected to land in the afternoon at Pittsburgh Airport (the only airport that was kept open).
But, well, this is of course to much asked for and of course there are absolutely no information given by the Independent Commission and apparently no OCTler bothers about it anyway ..........
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spooked911 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-28-05 06:21 PM
Response to Reply #6
8. Were there 11 real planes that were considered hijacks?
Could some of these have been radar injects from Vigilant Guardian?

But definitely I think the KEY 9/11 question is whether flights 11, 175, 77 and 93 were involved in the hijack exercise.

They will guard this information for dear life, I'm sure.
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MercutioATC Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-29-05 12:39 AM
Response to Reply #8
11. I don't know the specific number, but any flight that lost communications
was considered a "possible hijack" on 9/11/01. Aside from the 4 we all know about, the rest were just comm losses, not hijacks.
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John Doe II Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-29-05 09:31 AM
Response to Reply #11
13. Not common losses
at least according to one of the rare articles dealing with theses flights:


"One, a TWA flight, refuses to land in Pittsburgh and wants to fly on toward Washington. Another, a Midwest Express flight, disappears from radar over West Virginia. And three jets over the Atlantic Ocean are sending out distress signals, the Coast Guard reports.
A bomb is reported aboard a United Airlines jet that just landed in Rockford, Ill. Another jet disappears from radar and might have crashed in Kentucky.
The reports are so serious that Garvey notifies the White House that there has been another crash. Only later does she learn the reports are erroneous."

http://www.usatoday.com/travel/news/2002/2002-08-13-cle ...

For further details check out :
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=125x29703

Honestly I have problems understanding why neither theses planes nor the planes with boxcutters were investigated by the Commission.


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AZCat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-29-05 02:20 PM
Response to Reply #13
15. I think MercutioATC means "communication", not "common" n/t
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John Doe II Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-29-05 07:01 PM
Response to Reply #15
16. True
My mistake.
But still it is very surprising what's all going on on 911. All theses planes that have problems, sending out distress signals, are believed to ave crashed etc. What are theses planes. And what was the reason for all theses problems?
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paulthompson Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-10-05 10:38 PM
Response to Reply #16
19. All explainable
"One, a TWA flight, refuses to land in Pittsburgh and wants to fly on toward Washington. Another, a Midwest Express flight, disappears from radar over West Virginia. And three jets over the Atlantic Ocean are sending out distress signals, the Coast Guard reports.
A bomb is reported aboard a United Airlines jet that just landed in Rockford, Ill. Another jet disappears from radar and might have crashed in Kentucky."

First one: some asshole pilot. The three distress signals ove the Atlantic probably had to do with fuel worries. Once planes couldn't land in the US, some were afraid that they couldn't make it to Canada or back to Europe or wherever. I remember reading there was a real worry about that with one plane in particular. Bomb report: probably people freaking out after they heard about the 9/11 attacks from airfone calls and suspecting a piece of luggage or something. The last sentence is most likely a garbled account of Flight 77.

The only potential interesting one is the second one about the Midwest Express flight, esp. since that's where Flight 77 disappeared. It would be good to know more on that one, esp. the timing.
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Dancing_Dave Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-16-05 06:34 PM
Response to Reply #19
23. Flight 77 disappeared from radar on Ohio/Kentucky border...
And it's more likely that it did go down near there, instead of going hundreds of miles back east toward the Pentagon, in the most tightly controlled airspace on the planet.
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John Doe II Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-28-05 04:52 PM
Response to Original message
7. Even on September 13, 2001 ....
Authorities detained two armed groups at New York airports yesterday, fearing they intended to hijack a pair of jetliners and mount another suicidal terrorist strike on a U.S. target, government officials said.

Both groups carried knives, false identification and open tickets to U.S. destinations dated Tuesday -- the day of the attacks on the World Trade Center and the Pentagon, sources said. They also had certificates from a Florida flight training school attended by some members of the previous hijacking teams, who were similarly armed when they commandeered four aircraft.

Jim Hunter, a passenger on an American Airlines flight scheduled to leave John F. Kennedy International Airport for Los Angeles yesterday, said officers with guns drawn stormed the flight from the front and rear at about 8 p.m. They handcuffed and removed three people after ordering all passengers to the floor. The flight was canceled.


(Washington Post, 9/14/01)
See also:
http://www.tennessean.com/special/worldtrade/events/archives/01/08/08608087.shtml


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spooked911 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-28-05 06:25 PM
Response to Reply #7
9. what is the deal with that anyway?
could real terrorists be so stupid as to try the same thing a few days later? What happened to the guys they arrested anyway?

Were they set up somehow?
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Old and In the Way Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-28-05 06:26 PM
Response to Reply #7
10. Well that's interesting, isn't it?
Whatever happened with these people. Sounds like they fit the same profile as the hi-jackers. If they were detained, shouldn't they now be in jail awaiting trial? Very curious indeed.

But why would they be at an airport, carrying knives/false IDs....and certificates from the flight training school, 48 hours after 9/11? Almost like they wanted to get caught....or reinforce the story about the hijackers.
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John Doe II Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-16-05 05:47 PM
Response to Reply #10
22. Of course nothing
The story is so interesting I decided to open a new thread:
"Almost hijacked on 911: UA 23 and a very strange story on 913".
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John Doe II Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-10-05 03:53 PM
Response to Original message
17. AA 43
The Tribune reported that American Airlines Flight 43 was scheduled to depart at 8:10am local time, 25 minutes after American Flight 11, which later plowed into New York's World Trade Center after departing Boston's Logan Airport.

But American Airlines spokesman John Hotard said Flight 43 took off as scheduled from Newark International Airport in New Jersey, not from Boston, and landed in Cincinnati, Ohio, when US air traffic controllers ordered all flights to land following the attacks.

http://onenews.nzoom.com/onenews_detail/0,1227,57379-1-9,00.html


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John Doe II Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-10-05 03:54 PM
Response to Original message
18. Who are theses people??
In addition, one of the sources said that the FBI was "very interested" in passengers whose names appeared on the manifests of "several" other American flights that were in the air when the first attacks occurred.

http://www.sun-sentinel.com/news/local/southflorida/sfl-918fifthplane.story

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paulthompson Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-10-05 10:48 PM
Response to Original message
20. Here's my entries on this:
Edited on Thu Mar-10-05 10:56 PM by paulthompson
Am I missing anything from the above?

September 19, 2001: Unverified Reports of Additional Flights to Be Hijacked
The FBI claims on this day that there were six hijacking teams on the morning of 9/11. (NEW YORK TIMES, 9/19/01 (B), GUARDIAN, 10/13/01) A different report claims investigators are privately saying eight. (INDEPENDENT, 9/25/01) However, the reports below suggest there may have been as many as eight aborted flights, leading to a potential total of 12 hijackings:
• Knives of the same type used in the successful hijackings were found taped to the backs of fold-down trays on a Continental Airlines flight from Newark. (GUARDIAN, 9/19/01)
• The FBI is investigating American Airlines Flight 43, which was scheduled to leave Boston about 8:10 A.M. bound for Los Angeles but was canceled minutes before takeoff due to a mechanical problem. (BBC, 9/18/01 (C), CHICAGO TRIBUNE, 9/18/01; GUARDIAN, 9/19/01) Another version claims the flight left from Newark and made it as far as Cincinnati before being grounded in the nationwide air ban. (NEW YORK TIMES, 9/19/01 (B))
• Knives and box cutters were found on two separate canceled Delta Airlines planes later that day, one leaving Atlanta for Brussels and the other leaving from Boston. (TIME, 9/22/01; INDEPENDENT, 9/25/01)
• On September 14, two knives were found on an Air Canada flight that would have flown to New York on 9/11 if not for the air ban. (CNN, 10/15/01)
• Two men arrested on 9/11 may have lost their nerve on American Airlines Flight 1729 from Newark to San Antonio via Dallas that was scheduled to depart at 8:50 A.M., and was later forced to land in St. Louis. Alternately, they may have been planning an attack for September 15, 2001. (NEW YORK TIMES, 9/19/01 (B))
• There may have been an attempt to hijack United Airlines Flight 23 flying from Boston to Los Angeles around 9:00 A.M. Shortly after 9:00 A.M., United Airlines flight dispatcher Ed Ballinger sent out a warning about the first WTC crash to the flights he was handling. Because of this warning, the crew of Flight 23 told the passengers it had a mechanical problem and immediately returned to the gate. Ballinger was later told by authorities that six men initially wouldn’t get off the plane. When the men finally disembarked, they disappeared into the crowd and never returned. Later, authorities checked their luggage and found copies of the Koran and al-Qaeda instruction sheets. (CHICAGO DAILY HERALD, 04/14/04) In mid-2002, a NORAD deputy commander says “we don’t know for sure” if Flight 23 was to have been hijacked. (GLOBE AND MAIL, 6/13/02)
• Knives were found stashed in the seats on a plane due to leave Boston that was delayed due to technical problems and then canceled. (GUARDIAN, 10/13/01)
• A box cutter knife was found under a seat cushion on American Airlines Flight 160, a 767 that would have flown from San Diego to New York on the morning of 9/11 but for the air ban. (CHICAGO TRIBUNE, 9/23/01)
The FBI is said to be seeking a number of passengers who failed to board the same, rescheduled flights when the grounding order on commercial planes in the U.S. was lifted. (BBC, 9/18/01 (C)) The Independent points out suspicions have been fueled “that staff at U.S. airports may have played an active role in the conspiracy and helped the hijackers to circumvent airport security.” They also note, “It is possible that at least some of the flights that have come under scrutiny were used as decoys, or as fallback targets.” (INDEPENDENT, 9/25/01)

After 9:00 A.M.*: United Flight 23 Hijacking Averted?
Shortly after 9:00 A.M., United Airlines Flight 23 receives a warning message from flight dispatcher Ed Ballinger. Flight 23 is still on a Newark, New Jersey, runway, about to take off for Los Angeles. Apparently in response to Ballinger’s message, the crew tells the passengers there has been a mechanical problem and returns to the departure gate. A number of Middle Eastern men (one account says three, others say six) argue with the flight crew and refuse to get off the plane. Security is called, but they flee before it arrives. (CBS NEWS, 9/14/01 (B); CHICAGO DAILY HERALD, 04/14/04) Later, authorities check their luggage and find copies of the Koran and al-Qaeda instruction sheets. Ballinger suspects they got away. “When all we have is a photo from a fake ID, the chances of finding (someone) in Afghanistan or Pakistan are rather slim.” (CHICAGO DAILY HERALD, 04/14/04) A NORAD deputy commander later says, “From our perception, we think our reaction on that day was sufficiently quick that we may well have precluded at least one other hijacking. We may not have. We don’t know for sure.” (GLOBE AND MAIL, 6/13/02)

---

My personal guess is that the only real extra hijacking was Flight 23. This jibes with some of the forewarnings that spoke of five planes, not four. However, some of the others may have been backup plans. Let's say Flight 11 is cancelled, then you get on the Delta flight leaving a bit later or something like that. If so, that would suggest weapons were planted on all the flights, the main ones and the backups.

It makes sense that there would be backups because there had been years of man hours of planning and it would have been stupid to put all that work into it and not anticipate one of the flights being cancelled because of mechanical trouble or the like.
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John Doe II Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-11-05 03:51 AM
Response to Reply #20
21. I think there are two more mentionings
I think theses two don't figure in your list yet:

“(O)ne official disclosed that another weapon was discovered on
at least one other aircraft, owned by a fourth airline.
The government official refused to name that carrier.”
http://www.time.com/time/nation/article/0,8599,175953,0...


A Flight from Atlanta:
“Investigators also are scrutinizing knives found on an airplane (…) that was due to depart from Atlanta, a source close to the investigation confirmed.”
http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/showcase/chi-0109230...


I think your theory with AA 23 and the fall back theory is pretty convincing. But I really have to wonder how the "hijackers" had the possibility to plant knifes in so many airplanes in advance. And I really do have to wonder why the FBI wasn't more keen in getting their hands on theses passengers!

Remember that some passengers had booked for several flights on 911!
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