Pop quiz

[hack89]

There is a lot of talk about the hole in the Pentagon being too small-

1. what are the dimensions of the hole in the Pentagon?

2. how big a hole would you expect a 757 fuselage to make?

[JackRiddler]

1. The big one's about 16 feet...

And I'd expect the 13-ft. diameter fuselage to make a hole about that size (also given how the WTC crashes left holes that were EXACTLY THE SHAPE of the, ahem, 767s that went into them).

I'd also expect the engines, tail and wings to make holes of the right shape, and these may well be present. (The details of the relevant areas are obscured in most photos, and the government as we all know is holding on to the videos and other evidence.)

The only thing that leaves me agape is that the failed pilot managed to plant a 757 at ground level, and went out of his way to hit the empty, newly-renovated, reinforced side of the building. And wasn't intercepted although even Cheney received mile-by-mile reports as the plane came in (at least, that was the story until the 9/11 Commission cleaned it up with its new, fabricated timeline).

These are things that certainly give rise to suspicion.

But you know your exercise in the obvious is completely pointless.

In this world there is a phenomenon--

9/11 Skepticism

--which is very important and based on evidence and simple horse sense.

Then there is a religion that some people have attached around the former, in which the hole in the Pentagon takes on the significance of the Saviour's stigmata.

Question the hole, and you are hell-bound. Here we go.

[hack89]

3. The only reason I asked ...

is that "the hole is too small" seems to be a central tenet of many CT's and I was curious if there was in fact a more nuanced point of view out there. Your response actually is very reassuring to me.

[spooked911]

2. The hole in the Pentagon facade is large enough for the fuselage.

That is not a serious criticism. The problems with the Pentagon impact are the following:
1) it is not clear what happened to the wings and the tail, since the hole is clearly too small for them. It is doubtful they fragmented completely upoin impact.
2) the plane came in at a very low angle and it is improbably that the engines of a 757 would not have touched the ground OR the cable spools that were in front of the impact spot
3) something damaged the fence and the electrical generator that were in the approach path, but the damage does not comport with a 757 fuselage or engine, plus this impact would have knocked off an engine or seriously altered the plane's path
4) the Pentagon outer wall was very thick-- 3 feet of reinforced concrete, stone and brick-- how did the plane penetrate this?
5) much of the plane blew up on impact, showering debris all over the outside area of the Pentagon, yet no passenger seats or bodies were seen there
6) what made the perfectly round exit hole ion the A-E drive?
7) the overall approach path is odd (a tight circle with a fast descent, at high speed, the impact was at an angle) and was a very difficult maneuver for an amateur pilot.

[hack89]

4. So what alternative not involving a large airplane..

would cause the damage seen? Or do you believe in some of plane swap scenario - if so, how does it answer your questions?

[spooked911]

5. I don't know what hit the Pentagon but I know a normal 757 doesn't make

sense.

I think a number of things are possible for what hit the Pentagon since we don't have all the evidence we need to make a definitive judgement.

I think a plane-swap scenario is quite possible. It is also very possible it was some sort of large plane without passengers that was controlled remotely and that had an exploding tail section. I really don't know how to explain the exit hole.

[vincent_vega_lives]

32. Explain to me

how ground floor support I-beams can be swept away over a 80' wide swath, centered on and just below the 15' diameter hole? Which BTW is just coinsidently the with of the wing fuel tanks.



note the stacks of 4"x4"s proping up the facade.

[DrDebug]

7. Missile or a smaller airplane

A missile could make a hole without leaving too much debris.
A small airplane is still an option, but it would have to go very fast to penetrate the wall and that doesn't make sense either, but it could explain the lack of debris. (Also the option of a smaller airplane firing off a missile just before impact is an option, but that would have been an ace pilot wanting to sacrifice his life.)

It would take an incredibly skilled pilot as well given the extreme path the airplane took. It made some amazing turns at incredible high speeds.

Indeed there is witness testimony to the plane, but as some have indicated the speed was such that the people on the highway only saw something moving really fast for a split second before impact. So would you be able to see the difference or was it a big metal object at immense speeds. I think that people couldn't be able to differentiate between a 757, a smaller aircraft or a missile. And who wants to risk their life? I doubt whether you can find any American pilot crazy enough to go on a suicide mission.

The thing which makes the least sense is the 757 scenario.

[hack89]

8. A missile makes no sense...

How does a thousand pound missile with a 500 pound warhead cause more damage than a 100 TON airplane loaded with an explosive mix of jet fuel.

How do you explain the aircraft wreckage?
http://www.abovetopsecret.com/pages/911_pentagon_757_plane_evidence.html

How do you explain the 160 feet (equal to the wingspan of a 757) of damage to the facade of the Pentagon?

http://anderson.ath.cx:8000/911/pen06.html

[seatnineb]

9. And how do you explain...............

........the fact that no one managed to photograph the C-130 that followed straight afterwards.......Steve Riskus included....


September 12,
2001 01:03

PM black helicopters An Anonymous Coward
seeks more information about an interview that
Washington area readers may be able to provide: He
writes:"Fox News channel 5 (local around 6:30ish
E.S.T) this evening had an interview with a witness
about what he saw at the Pentagon the moment of
impact. His interview was the basic 'I was in my car
looked to my side..blah blah' but then he said
something totally unexpected. He observed a second
airplane immediately swing behind the first in a
follow like manner and swoop down on the Pentagon only
to pull up at the last second, out of the smoke cloud,
and fly away. His description of the plane was pretty
detailed, saying it was propeller-driven ... He stated
everyone around him who were also outside their cars
saw the SECOND Airplane following the first and it was
also going in."

http://www.egoinc.org/mtarchives/2001/09/12/black_helicopters.html

[hack89]

11. And the point of this is what?

It doesn't answer the question of what caused the damage.

[seatnineb]

16. May be these explosions..................

<Diogenes> We just had a HUGE SERIES OF EXPLOSIONS somewhere near where I live.....

<10:11> <Diogenes>Alexandria

<10:13> <Diogenes> Sorry all... I was on the phone...

<10:13> <hot> second explosion at pentagon!!!

<10:13> <dumper> @nd explosin at pent.

<10:13> <ResearcherA1> pentagon 2nd expl.

http://www.financialchat.com/chat_logs/ActiveTrader.Fin ...

.....are what caused some of that damage....

These explosions took place at least 36 minutes AFTER flight 77 allegedly hit the Pentagon.

[hack89]

27. Sounds like the fuel tanks for the Navy Command Center's..

emergency generating system cooking off.

[seatnineb]

31. Where were fuel tanks situated exactly?

There is no reference to them in this diagram.

[DrDebug]

10. A missile makes a lot of sense

Because a missile is designed for maximum damage. So a missile makes a lot more damage in relative terms than an airplane. And a slight damage in 160 yards next to the impact hole doesn't proof that it was a 757.

How do you explain the lack of debris? Because a 757 can't disappear and except for a couple of engine parts it disappeared completely.

You can't convince me with that 757 story. It is simply defies logic. A missile doesn't

[spooked911]

12. I think a missile is possible but they would have had to plant some

airplane debris plus paint the missile to look like a plane.

Another possibility is a missile dressed up to look like a plane.

Also, see my thread on the generator on why a 757 is unlikely.

[DrDebug]

15. I've read your story. I agree with you about it as well

The 757 is higly unlikely. By far the most unlikely story of them all.

[hack89]

19. I'l ask you also - name your missile..

show me a missile that would do this damage.

[hack89]

13. Name your missile ...

Give me a scenario - type of missile carried by type of plane. Show me you have an idea what you are talking about.

Small tactical missiles don't make that kind of damage - they have small warheads. Energy is energy - a 100 tons of airplane at 500 mph loaded with jet fuel is going to have orders of magnitude greater potential energy then a missile with a hundred pound warhead. If it was a penetrating warhead it would leave a small hole (less than a two feet) in the wall as it waited to explode well in the building. If it was a blast warhead, the damage would not extend well into the building.

How did a missile cause the hole in the E ring?

[DrDebug]

14. Why don't you answer the question asked to you first?

You are avoiding the issue and changing the subject of the conversation. I don't like it when people do that. Because that means that there is no discussion but a one-sided conversation where one party simply ridicules the other. Yes that means that I'm not going to reply to your questions.

[hack89]

18. OK - here is the debris..

http://www.abovetopsecret.com/pages/911_pentagon_757_plane_evidence.html

Now will you answer my questions?

[DrDebug]

20. Well let's look at the alternatives

An AGM-86C which is often reference could carry a 3,000-lb PBXN-111 and it looks like an aircraft as well. http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/smart/agm-86c.htm This is not a light weight cruise missile. This is a big thing as well. It could easily be confused with an aircraft.



Then there is the 86D model which was supposedly made in mid-2002, but who says this wasn't the test of variant 86D. This missile is specifically designed for penetration. That means it would go deep. Becuase that's it's function to penetrate very deep into the ground before exploding.

There's more at http://www.apfn.org/apfn/flight77.htm

And we have the global hawk variant



http://www.bcrevolution.ca/911_part_ii.htm

This will look like a plane as well and it can be highly devastating.

There is one point about these options. They wouldn't give much debris. And that is what I see on your evidence as well. Some debris, some airplane parts but that's it. A 757 would leave much more over a much wider area as well. The wings didn't penetrate the Pentagon, so what happened to them. They can't have disappeared into smoke.

[fll03]

21. Didn't the Pentagon have cameras to confirm what hit?

Why haven't they released pictures?

[DrDebug]

22. It's on one of the links somewhere in this story

I saw it today as well. But it is very blurry. Basically it could be anything.

Welcome to the DU :toast:

[fll03]

26. The Pentagon cameras would give good resolution. Its not clear what

the picture you are talking about was from; or why it was released and other shots not released. The Pentagon is said to have at least 6 cameras on each wall.

[hack89]

23. Confused with a 757? - give me break

or perhaps an eye witness. There are many who saw a 757 - give me one person who saw a cruise missile. It is 24 inches in diameter with a 12 foot wing span - that is small compared to any aircraft.While you are at it - can you highlight those features of the damage to the building that is character of damage from a cruise missile?

[seatnineb]

24. No.

Only 2 eye witnesses said it was a 757.....and one of those was not too sure....

The aircraft, looking to be either a 757 or Airbus, seemed to come directly over the annex, as if it had been following Columbia Pike - an Arlington
Albert Hemphill

It was a Boeing 757
Tim Timmerman

[hack89]

25. Well, that is still more than who saw a missile, isn't it?

Be honest - you know as well as I do that many people reported a large airliner (perhaps not as a 757) while there is not a single instance of someone seeing a cruise missile. I personally put a lot of credence to what people at the scene saw - not being there I consider it presumptuous to second guess eyewitnesses.

[hack89]

28. Some eyewitnesses...

"USAToday.com Editor Joel Sucherman saw it all: an American Airlines jetliner fly left to right across his field of vision as he commuted to work Tuesday morning. It was highly unusual. The large plane was 20 feet off the ground and a mere 50 to 75 yards from his windshield. Two seconds later and before he could see if the landing gear was down or any of the horror-struck faces inside, the plane slammed into the west wall of the Pentagon 100 yards away. 'My first thought was he's not going to make it across the river to National Airport. But whoever was flying the plane made no attempt to change direction,' Sucherman said. 'It was coming in at a high rate of speed, but not at a steep angle—almost like a heat-seeking missile was locked onto its target and staying dead on course."
- "Journalist Witnesses Pentagon Crash." eWeek.com, 13 Sep 2001


"On a Metro train to National Airport, Allen Cleveland looked out the window to see a jet heading down toward the Pentagon. 'I thought, "There's no landing strip on that side of the subway tracks,"' he said. Before he could process that thought, he saw 'a huge mushroom cloud. The lady next to me was in absolute hysterics.'"
- "Our Plane Is Being Hijacked." Washington Post, 12 Sep 2001

"I was supposed to have been going to the Pentagon Tuesday morning at about 11:00am (EDT) and was getting ready, and thank goodness I wasn't going to be going until later. It was so shocking, I was listening to the news on what had happened in New York, and just happened to look out the window because I heard a low flying plane and then I saw it hit the Pentagon. It happened so fast... it was in the air one moment and in the building the next..."
- "U.S. Under Attack: Your Eyewitness Accounts." BBC News, 14 Sep 2001

"As I approached the Pentagon, which was still not quite in view, listening on the radio to the first reports about the World Trade Center disaster in New York, a jetliner, apparently at full throttle and not more than a couple of hundred yards above the ground, screamed overhead. ... Seconds before the Pentagon came into view a huge black cloud of smoke rose above the road ahead. I came around the bend and there was the Pentagon billowing smoke, flames and debris, blackened on one side and with a gaping hole where the airplane had hit it."
- "Eyewitness at the Pentagon." Human Events, 17 Sep 2001

"Frank Probst, an information management specialist for the Pentagon Renovation Program, left his office trailer near the Pentagon's south parking lot at 9:36 a.m. Sept. 11. Walking north beside Route 27, he suddenly saw a commercial airliner crest the hilltop Navy Annex. American Airlines Flight 77 reached him so fast and flew so low that Probst dropped to the ground, fearing he'd lose his head to its right engine."
- "A Defiant Recovery." The Retired Officer Magazine, January 2002

"'I mean it was like a cruise missile with wings, went right there and slammed into the Pentagon,' eyewitness Mike Walter said of the plane that hit the military complex. 'Huge explosion, great ball of fire, smoke started billowing out, and then it was just chaos on the highway as people either tried to move around the traffic and go down either forward or backwards,' he said."
- "Witnesses and Leaders on Terrorist Attacks." CNN, 11 Sep 2001

"'(The plane) was flying fast and low and the Pentagon was the obvious target,' said Fred Gaskins, who was driving to his job as a national editor at USA Today near the Pentagon when the plane passed about 150 feet overhead. 'It was flying very smoothly and calmly, without any hint that anything was wrong.'"
- "Bush Vows Retaliation for 'Evil Acts'." USA Today, 11 Sep 2001

"Aydan Kizildrgli, an English language student who is a native of Turkey, saw the jetliner bank slightly then strike a western wall of the huge five-sided building that is the headquarters of the nation's military. 'There was a big boom,' he said. 'Everybody was in shock. I turned around to the car behind me and yelled "Did you see that?" Nobody could believe it.'"
- "Bush Vows Retaliation for 'Evil Acts'." USA Today, 11 Sep 2001

'I saw the tail of a large airliner. ... It plowed right into the Pentagon," said an Associated Press Radio reporter who witnessed the crash. 'There is billowing black smoke.'"
- "America's Morning of Terror." ChannelOne.com, 2001

"Omar Campo, a Salvadorean, was cutting the grass on the other side of the road when the plane flew over his head. 'It was a passenger plane. I think an American Airways plane,' Mr Campo said. 'I was cutting the grass and it came in screaming over my head. I felt the impact. The whole ground shook and the whole area was full of fire. I could never imagine I would see anything like that here.'"
- "Pentagon Eyewitness Accounts." The Guardian, 12 Sep 2001

"Afework Hagos, a computer programmer, was on his way to work but stuck in a traffic jam near the Pentagon when the plane flew over. 'There was a huge screaming noise and I got out of the car as the plane came over. Everybody was running away in different directions. It was tilting its wings up and down like it was trying to balance. It hit some lampposts on the way in.'"
- "Pentagon Eyewitness Accounts." The Guardian, 12 Sep 2001

"A pilot who saw the impact, Tim Timmerman, said it had been an American Airways 757. "'It added power on its way in,' he said. 'The nose hit, and the wings came forward and it went up in a fireball.'"
- "Pentagon Eyewitness Accounts." The Guardian, 12 Sep 2001

"Steve Eiden, a truck driver, had picked up his cargo that Tuesday morning in Williamsburg, Va., and was en route to New York City and witnessed the aftermath. ... He took the Highway 95 loop in the area of the Pentagon and thought it odd to see a plane in restricted airspace, thinking to himself it was odd that it was flying so low. 'You could almost see the people in the windows,' he said as he watched the plane disappear behind a line of trees, followed by a tall plume of black smoke. Then he saw the Pentagon on fire, and an announcement came over the radio that the Pentagon had been hit."
- "Sept. 11, the Day America Changed." The Baxter Bulletin, 2001

"Traffic is normally slow right around the Pentagon as the road winds and we line up to cross the 14th Street bridge heading into the District of Columbia. I don’t know what made me look up, but I did and I saw a very low-flying American Airlines plane that seemed to be accelerating. My first thought was just 'No, no, no, no,' because it was obvious the plane was not heading to nearby Reagan National Airport. It was going to crash."
- "September 11 Remembered." University Week, 4 Oct 2001

Father Stephen McGraw was driving to a graveside service at Arlington National Cemetery the morning of Sept. 11, when he mistakenly took the Pentagon exit onto Washington Boulevard, putting him in a position to witness American Airlines Flight 77 crash into the Pentagon. 'I was in the left hand lane with my windows closed. I did not hear anything at all until the plane was just right above our cars.' McGraw estimates that the plane passed about 20 feet over his car, as he waited in the left hand lane of the road, on the side closest to the Pentagon. 'The plane clipped the top of a light pole just before it got to us, injuring a taxi driver, whose taxi was just a few feet away from my car. I saw it crash into the building,' he said. 'My only memories really were that it looked like a plane coming in for a landing. I mean in the sense that it was controlled and sort of straight. That was my impression,' he said. 'There was an explosion and a loud noise and I felt the impact. I remember seeing a fireball come out of two windows (of the Pentagon). I saw an explosion of fire billowing through those two windows.'"
- "Pentagon Crash Eyewitness Comforted Victims." MDW News Service, 28 Sep 2001

"I witnessed the jet hit the Pentagon on September 11. From my office on the 19th floor of the USA TODAY building in Arlington, Va., I have a view of Arlington Cemetery, Crystal City, the Pentagon, National Airport and the Potomac River. ... Shortly after watching the second tragedy, I heard jet engines pass our building, which, being so close to the airport is very common. But I thought the airport was closed. I figured it was a plane coming in for landing. A few moments later, as I was looking down at my desk, the plane caught my eye. It didn't register at first. I thought to myself that I couldn't believe the pilot was flying so low. Then it dawned on me what was about to happen. I watched in horror as the plane flew at treetop level, banked slightly to the left, drug it's wing along the ground and slammed into the west wall of the Pentagon exploding into a giant orange fireball. Then black smoke. Then white smoke."
- Steve Anderson, Director of Communications, USA Today

"Henry Ticknor, intern minister at the Unitarian Universalist Church of Arlington, Virginia, was driving to church that Tuesday morning when American Airlines Flight 77 came in fast and low over his car and struck the Pentagon. 'There was a puff of white smoke and then a huge billowing black cloud,' he said."
- "Hell on Earth." UU World, Jan/Feb 2002

"Northern Virginia resident John O'Keefe was one of the commuters who witnessed the attack on the Pentagon. 'I was going up 395, up Washington Blvd., listening to the the news, to WTOP, and from my left side-I don't know whether I saw or heard it first- I saw a silver plane I immediately recognized it as an American Airlines jet,' said the 25-year-old O'Keefe, managing editor of Influence, an American Lawyer Media publication about lobbying. 'It came swooping in over the highway, over my left shoulder, straight across where my car was heading. I'd just heard them saying on the radio that National Airport was closing, and I thought, "That's not going to make it to National Airport." And then I realized where I was, and that it was going to hit the Pentagon. There was a burst of orange flame that shot out that I could see through the highway overpass. Then it was just black. Just black, thick smoke.'"
- "Terrorist 'Situation'." American Lawyer Media, 11 Sep 2001

[seatnineb]

29. Let's refine that list......

Here are the witnesses who described a plane

I watched in horror as the plane flew at treetop level
Steve Anderson

Suddenly I saw this plane right outside my window.
Deb & Jeff Anlauf

The jet was coming up behind us on that major highway.
Gary Bauer

At 9:40 a.m. I was driving down Washington Boulevard (Route 27) along the side of the Pentagon when the aircraft crossed about 200 yards in front of me
Donald Bouchoux

I saw the plane at the Navy Annex area,
Mark Bright

It was a passenger plane. I think an American Airways plane
Campo

'This isn't really happening. That is a big plane.' Then I saw the faces of some of the passengers on board,
James R. Cissell

a silver pasenger jet, mid sized"
Allen Cleveland

I can still see the plane. I can still see it right now.
Dan Creed

Suddenly, an airplane roared into view, nearly shearing the roof off the trailer before slamming into the E ring
Michael DiPaula

I saw the plane coming in slow motion toward my car
Penny Elgas

I looked to my left and saw the plane coming in
Bruce Elliott

Right before the plane hit the building, you could see the silhouettes of people in the back two rows
Kim Flyler

I got out of the car as the plane came over.
Afework Hagos

The aircraft, looking to be either a 757 or Airbus, seemed to come directly over the annex, as if it had been following Columbia Pike - an Arlington
Albert Hemphill

I saw this very, very large passenger jet
Terrance Kean

However, it appeared to be a small commercial aircraft
Khavkin D. S.

saw the jetliner bank slightly
Aydan Kizildrgli

I heard a low flying plane and then I saw it hit the Pentagon.
M. K.

The plane rolled left and then rolled right.
David Marra

I saw a big jet flying close to the building coming at full speed
Oscar Martinez

the plane was just right above our cars
Stephen McGraw

I was right underneath the plane
Kirk Milburn

I looked over and saw this big silver plane
James Mosley

Looking up didn't tell me what type of plane it was because it was so close I could only see the bottom.
Mary Ann Owens

I looked idly out my window to the left -- and saw a plane flying so low I said, "holy cow
Christine Peterson

I looked out the window to the West just in time to see the belly of that aircraft and the tail section fly directly over my house at treetop height
Plaisted

I saw this plane coming right at me
Frank Probst

The plane came in at an incredibly steep angle
Rick Renzi

The sight of the 757 diving in at an unrecoverable angle is frozen in my memory,
James S Robbins

"it was a mid size plane".
Meseidy Rodriguez


the plane was slow
John Sayer

A plane flew over my house
Rob Schickler

I noticed a plane making a sharp turn from north of the Pentagon.
Don Scott

The plane's right wheel struck a light pole
Noel Sepulveda

The plane's left wing actually came in near the ground and the right wing was tilted up in the air.
Jack Singleton

A huge jet. Then it was gone.
Skarlet

saw the body and the tail; it was a silver jet with the markings along the windows that spoke to me as an American Airlines jet,
Joel Sucherman

I glanced up just at the point where the plane was going into the building
Carla Thompson

I looked out my window and I saw this plane
Mike Walter

I saw the tail of a large airliner
Dave Winslow

It looked like a commuter plane
Don Wright

It was huge! It was silver. It was low -- unbelievable!
Madelyn Zakhem

[seatnineb]

30. Witnesses to an American Airlines jet..

I saw an American Airlines jet come overhead
Phillip Thompson

saw the body and the tail; it was a silver jet with the markings along the windows that spoke to me as an American Airlines jet,
Joel Sucherman

I saw a silver plane I immediately recognized it as an American Airlines jet,
John O'Keefe

Then I looked up to my left and saw an American Airlines jet flying right at me.
Vin Narayanan

A silver, twin-engine American Airlines jetliner gliding almost noiselessly over the Navy Annex
Christopher Munsey

The plane had a silver body with red and blue stripes down the fuselage. I believed at the time that it belonged to American Airlines, but I couldn't be sure. It looked like a 737
Terry Morin

I saw a very low-flying American Airlines plane
Elaine McCusker

I saw this large American Airlines passenger jet coming in fast and low
Lincoln Liebner

It was close enough that I could see the windows and the blinds had been pulled down. I read American Airlines on it.
William Lagasse

About two minutes later one of my guys pointed to an American Airlines airplane 20 feet high over Washington Blvd.
Joe Harrington

It was an American Airlines airplane
Richard Benedetto

[vincent_vega_lives]

33. A missle would be different in a very important way

It would have blasted peices of the Pentagon in all directions. That is the diference between a high-pressure explosive blast and a low-pressure fuel explosion, which is what we witnessed.

The problem is most people have grown up seing Hollywood explosions, which are composed of fuel, not military grade explosives, and think thats what they should look like.

The wingspan of the 757 is 124' btw.

[ROH]

6. Very Interesting Points

Regarding points 1 and 3, a message at http://www.abovetopsecret.com/forum/thread79655/pg2 makes some suggestions, including the possibility that the tail or the port engine might have been hurled over the Pentagon roof:

------------------------------
"The thing you need to remember here is the wings are not just wings - they are also huge fuel tanks. At the point of impact they ceased to be solid objects containing a liquid - once they crossed this threshold they became a large fluid mass (including the metal which would have been smashed into pieces). The wings probably accounted for 30-40% of the entire mass of the aircraft because of the fuel.

...

It appears to me that the right wing was damaged (possibly broken away from the body) when it hit the deisel generator - that would account for the 15 degree downward angle on the port wing and the 30 degree upward angle for the starboard wing based on marks on the building.

Something interesting, however, in this (almost original - but still lossy due to it being preconverted into a 256 color gif animation) version of the crash frames the initial first explosion frame is not overexposed - clearly somebody in the past intentionally overexposed it to support the fake theory that it was a bomb (to brighten the explosion). This is also one of the better quality versions I've seen. It's the first time I can truthfully say to myself that I see an aircraft in there.



Notice all the chunks of the plane being tossed into the air (even looks like a large chunk of the tail is thrown over the roof of the Pentagon). Although it could be the port engine, I have read four of five reports from "eyewitnesses" that there was one of the engines laying in the courtyard of the Pentagon..."
------------------------------


On point 7, "the overall approach path is odd (a tight circle with a fast descent, at high speed, the impact was at an angle) and was a very difficult maneuver for an amateur pilot":

The impact speed was so high (530 mph according to the CR) and the approach path was so extreme and low in the final stages that it seems to me it would have been a very difficult maneuver for an amateur pilot, particularly an amateur who had been noted for his incompetence:

------------------------------
"In January, the Arizona flight school JetTech alerts the FAA about hijacker Hani Hanjour. No one at the school suspects Hanjour of terrorist intent, but they tell the FAA he lacks both the English and flying skills necessary for the commercial pilot's license he has already obtained. The flight school manager “couldn't believe he had a commercial license of any kind with the skills that he had.” A former employee says, “I'm still to this day amazed that he could have flown into the Pentagon. He could not fly at all.” They also note he is an exceptionally poor student who does not seem to care about passing his courses." (New York Times, 5/4/02)
------------------------------
http://www.cooperativeresearch.org/item.jsp?item=a0101hanjourwarnings
http://www.nytimes.com/2002/05/04/national/04ARIZ.html

[seatnineb]

17. Just as an afterthought ROH

The unedited footage from this surveillance camera





....would show that all elusive C-130......

Im interested what kind of trajectory it took as it approached and flew over/past the Pentagon.

[vincent_vega_lives]

34. Not very "elusive C-130"

Straight out of Paul Thompson's timeline


9.36 a.m. Complete 911 Timeline

Reagan Airport flight control instructs a military C-130 (Golfer 06) that has just departed Andrews Air Force Base to intercept Flight 77 and identify it. Remarkably, this C-130 is the same C-130 that is 17 miles from Flight 93 when it later crashes into the Pennsylvania countryside. The pilot, Lieutenant Colonel Steve O'Brien, claims he took off around 9:30 a.m., planning to return to Minnesota after dropping supplies off in the Caribbean. He later describes his close encounter: “When air traffic control asked me if we had him in sight, I told him that was an understatement—by then, he had pretty much filled our windscreen. Then he made a pretty aggressive turn so he was moving right in front of us, a mile and a half, two miles away. I said we had him in sight, then the controller asked me what kind of plane it was. That caught us up, because normally they have all that information. The controller didn't seem to know anything.” O'Brien reports that the plane is either a 757 or 767 and its silver fuselage means it is probably an American Airlines plane. “They told us to turn and follow that aircraft—in 20 plus years of flying, I've never been asked to do something like that.” The 9/11 Commission reports that it is a C-130H and the pilot specifically identifies the hijacked plane as a 757. Seconds after impact, he reports, “Looks like that aircraft crashed into the Pentagon, sir.” <9/11 Commission Report, 6/17/04>

[seatnineb]

36. So why has it been edited out of this surveillance camera footage?

The C130 would have been shown on the unedited footage......

[yodermon]

35. adjacent to and above the hole are intact windows.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=125&topic_id=39011#39369

Windows above the entry hole, where tail fin should have been, are unbroken. How can this be?

[Kevin Fenton]

37. Pentagon Hole

(1) The hole was 90 feet by 26 feet
This is the best article I've found examining it:

911research.wtc7.net/mirrors/guardian/Pentagon/what-hit-it.htm

(2) The hole is a little bit small for a 757, but, if you bear in mind that both the wings hit something on the lawn (heliport installations, generator), then that explains the probable discrepancy.

Also, it's pretty unlikely that somebody switched the planes but didn't have the right model to exchange for the original flight.