Why were cell phones out in DC?

[drfemoe]

I heard Daschle on npr the other day, telling about what happened 9/11. After the towers were struck, cell phone service in DC was out. In NYC, the dust and explosions could explain the drop in service. But there was supposedly even a cell call from the plane that 'crashed' into the pentagon (DC).

I've read a lot about 9/11.. so I'm not a total novice. I just had never heard anything about cell service being out in DC that morning.

The talk of the UK cutting cell service during the *u*h visit there only adds to the puzzle. Who cut service in DC? And why?

[Old and In the Way]

1. Not sure that was the case in DC

But given the events of that morning, no doubt the system was severely taxed...I imagine lots of calls weren't getting through.

Although that wasn't the case with victims on 93 and 77 apparently.

[lcooksey]

2. Service wasn't out, but it was iffy

I work in the Washington Navy Yard in DC and was there on 9/11. The landlines were overloaded, so it was very difficult to get a call out to let people know we were ok. There was the same problem with cellphones. I called my parents in Kentucky on my cellphone and it took several tries to get the call to go thru. A coworker couldn't get a call thru on her Verizon phone, but when she tried on my Cingular phone she did get thru. I don't think there was anything mysterious going on, just too many people all trying to make calls at the same time.

[Abe Linkman]

4. Barbara's "excellent" luck

"I don't think there was anything mysterious going on, just too many people all trying to make calls at the same time."

Amazing that the alleged wife of Ted (R-Richard Mellon Scaife) was able to get thru on whatever phone(s) she used to call Ted while Hami Hanjour was making everybody dizzy with his magical flying tricks.

And my, aren't we "lucky" she did. Otherwise; the whole O.Story thing wouldn't make any sense.

[Name removed]

5. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[demodewd]

6. re:fixations

Speaking of fixations...how about the Boloboffin fixation on the ISI(CIA) sponsored AlQaeda?

[Bolo Boffin]

9. Are you saying...

...that Al Qaeda had nothing at all to do with the attack on 9/11?

And if you don't mind, why don't you answer the question too? What would be different had calls from Barbara Olson had not been part of the story? What exactly would have gone differently in the response to that attack?

[DulceDecorum]

10. Ann Coulter says:

Barbara Olson kept her cool. In the hysteria and terror of hijackers herding passengers to the rear of the plane, she retrieved her cell phone and called her husband, Ted, the solicitor general of the United States. She informed him that he had better call the FBI -- the plane had been hijacked. According to reports, Barbara was still on the phone with Ted when her plane plunged in a fiery explosion directly into the Pentagon.
Barbara risked having her neck slit to warn the country of a terrorist attack. She was a patriot to the very end.
This is not to engage in the media's typical hallucinatory overstatement about anyone who is the victim of a horrible tragedy. The furtive cell phone call was an act of incredible daring and panache. If it were not, we'd be hearing reports of a hundred more cell phone calls. (Even people who swear to hate cell phones carry them for commercial air travel.)
http://www.townhall.com/columnists/anncoulter/printac20010914.shtml

The Washington Post has run an odd report claiming the hijackers ordered passengers with cell phones to call their loved ones to say they were about to die.Maybe that’s true.
The facts are still coming out about large chunks of this story.But I can’t help being suspicious. THAT STORY DOESN'T REALLY HANG TOGETHER.
If 64 passengers knew they had just been recruited for a suicide mission, it’s hard to figure how the hijackers could have held them off with box-cutters.It’s also hard to imagine hijackers intent on plunging into the Pentagon bothering with the courtesy of farewell phone calls. And if they all were about to die anyway, it’s not clear why Barbara Olson would have asked Ted for advice about what she should tell the pilot to do – something that has been authoritatively reported.
We haven’t heard of other cell calls, though nearly everyone has a cell phone these days.
http://www.frontpagemag.com/Articles/ReadArticle.asp?ID=114


This was Boloboffin's old sig line
before he was forced to reconsider
the airplanes and cell phone story:

On September 11th, 2001, Flight 77
turned off its transponder. Its radar image
was still clearly picked up, however, and
air traffic controllers watched this airplane
fly over Washington, DC and begin to circle
the Pentagon. Cellphone calls from Flight
77 confirm that the plane had been
hijacked by terrorists. Eyewitnesses saw a
757 circling the Pentagon in the exact
place where air traffic controllers
observed Flight 77 on their screens. Flight
77 descended, flew across a interstate
filled with rush hour traffic, and then
crashed into the Pentagon. The fire raged
and part of the Pentagon collasped. After
the fire was contained, pieces of Flight 77
were pulled from the lawn and the
wrecked building, along with the mortal
remains of Flight 77's passengers.

Bolo has apparently changed his mind about the importance of the phone calls, which is most strange considering just how strongly he has always defended the Harpy known as Barby.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=125&topic_id=1305&mesg_id=1600&page=

If it were not for the Barbara Bracher-claims-to-be-Olson cell phone lie,
at least one 500 pound bomb
- the one with her name on it -
would not have fallen upon the hapless people of Afghanistan.
As it was, her real mission failed.
No-one in the world believes that Palestinians launched that attack.

[Name removed]

11. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[LARED]

12. I recommend the ignore button

I did it for a month or so and it really improved my disposition.

[DulceDecorum]

101. And

ours.

[Name removed]

102. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[LARED]

105. Lets try again

My question was deleted for unknown reason, so let me ask again in a different way.

Do you speak for someome other than yourself as you have indicated?

[Abe Linkman]

139. "Are you implying...'

...that Al Qaeda had something to do with the "attacks" on 9/11?

If you don't mind, why don't you answer the question, and provide a link showing that the U.S. Gov't knew that OBL and Al Queda were behind the attakcs.

[Abe Linkman]

7. Don't they teach logic at PR school?

Who told you that if Ted Olson hadn't lied about having claimed his wife called him from FL 77 - that the American response to the 9/11 attacks would have been different?

[Bolo Boffin]

8. Rove told me.

Personally.

Now answer the question.

[DulceDecorum]

13. Boloboffin quotes:

"There is no legitimate reason for anyone to doubt the account of Ted Olson whatsoever."
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=125&topic_id=1305&mesg_id=1596&page=

"As I said somewhere on this thread, there are witnesses to the phone call as it was happening. Barbara Olson boarded Flight 77. Someone else answered her call from the plane, and Helen Voss (a second witness) watched Ted have both conversations."
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=125&topic_id=1305&mesg_id=1658&page=

"One more reason to curse the Al Qaeda terrorists that did this - they unwittingly turned Barbara Olson into a martyr for the right."
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=125&topic_id=1305&mesg_id=1573&page=

[Abe Linkman]

14. "They" would try to spin bush out of it, even if proven he DID know...

PR people and even some DU posters would say that even if there was incontrovertible evidence that bush knew/planned or supported the 9-11 attacks...they'd still say things like "so what, that doesn't change what happened".

[Bolo Boffin]

16. What PR people, Abe?

Who's trying to spin Bush out of what?

I'm glad to see you admit that there is no incontrovertible evidence of Bush's planning of 9/11.

You still haven't answered my question, by the way. You're picking up tendancies of DulceDecorum. What in the response to the 9/11 attacks would have been different if there had been no report of Barbara Olson's alleged phone calls? What in the "Official Story" would have been different sans this citation?

Answers, please. No "PR person" equivications. Put your answers where your keyboard is.

[Abe Linkman]

20. Another one of those 9-11 mysteries, "boloboffin"

"Who's trying to spin Bush out of what?"

I don't know the names of any of the PR people, but some of the firms that have been used in other disinformation campaigns (like the "unplugging of incubators in Kuwait" lie) have been posted here.

You've seen those, haven't you, boloboffin? Do YOU know anyone who works at any of those firms? Just curious.

[Bolo Boffin]

22. Answer the question, Abe!

Why can't you answer a simple question?

If the Olson phone calls are the foundational anchor of the Official Story you claim them to be, then something about the results of the 9/11 attacks must be completely different if they had never been publicized. What would that difference be, Abe?

Answer the question!

What would be different about the response to 9/11 if the Olson calls were never in the public eye?

Speak now or lose all credibility! You're positively Dulcian in your avoidance of questions...

[Bolo Boffin]

23. Why won't you answer this question, Abe?

You've been back here and replied to me on other threads, but you refuse to deal with this question: What in America's response would have been different if the Olson phone calls had never been publicized?

Answer the question!

[Abe Linkman]

25. Stupid question; irrelevant to the issue of what happened on 9-11

Disinformation agents and people like you don't deserve a response to diversionary questions. You are here strictly as an interested citizen like the rest of us; correct? You have no other motivation, right?

If so, then let's stick to questions about what really happened on 9-11;
then once we know the truth about what really happened, how/why various elements of the Government responded will be self-evident.

[Bolo Boffin]

26. Thank you Abe

I'm glad you can finally admit that the veracity of the Olson calls is irrelevant to what happened on that day. You have to cloud it with all of this disinformation agent bullhockey, but you have finally seen the truth: the Olson calls are not the Mother of All Lies, but only a sad sidebar to the events of 9/11.

Isn't finding the truth a great thing?

[Bolo Boffin]

15. And your conclusion from these quotes is...?

That's a great summation of how I view the Barbara Olson phone calls. Ted Olson has witnesses to the call, and the remains of his wife that were recovered from the Pentagon wreckage. Sounds like he's telling the truth about this incident. It doesn't mean he isn't a liar in other matters. It doesn't justify the thing he and his wife wrote about the Clintons.

And it still doesn't make the Olson phone calls the central fact of these investigations.

[Ani Yun Wiya]

17. Say buddy, do me a big favor.

If you would.

Read this article:
http://nyc.indymedia.org/front.php3?article_id=82574&group=webcast

When you get finished with it let me know what you think.

[LARED]

18. I know I'm butting in, but

I stopped reading after the first two sentences were outright BS.

[reorg]

19. you should have read a little further:

down to where he comments on the believer types (emphasis added)

"... since the official scenario is itself an unsubstantiated "conspiracy theory," competing scenarios should also receive serious attention. Our reluctance to question official doctrine on this matter is a symptom of the societal role most of us have been bred and trained for: to be ever-faithful hounds, tails thumping the floor as we contentedly slorp the hand of class authority. Such credulity also becomes inevitable when the alternative is so unbearable: if someone in Bush's position is capable of lying to us about something as huge, as gut-wrenchingly horrible as 9-11, then everything we believe about this country -- about the nature of civilization itself -- might just be childish nonsense... (...)

Given a desperate enough need to sustain the childish belief in government-as-benevolent-father, a person will adapt that belief to any circumstance. The behavioral end result can resemble courage; indeed, we are taught to regard it as the DEFINITION of courage. Actually, it's one of cowardice's darkest moments. Even a casual examination of Nazi Germany, where this phenomenon was rampant, will drive this point home."

[Bolo Boffin]

21. You mean...

The government isn't my benevolent father?

Somebody like Bush might lie?

My entire worldview is shattered! Not.

I really have no illusions about government or Bush's ability to lie. I'd argue that the opposite fallacy is what my debate opponents suffer from here - that government is always an insidious force and Bush always, always lies.

If Bush said the earth revolves around the sun, would you agree with him? Does that make you a Bush apologist or an H&K PR man out to advance the BushCo agenda? No. Would agreement with Bush on this matter make you a neo-citizen of Nazi Germany? No. It's not about cowardice or courage - it's about the evidence.

[JackRiddler]

24. The earth revolves around the sun...

...only if you take the sun as a fixed point, which doesn't exist in this universe. The sun is in motion, too, and they actually revolve around each other, at any rate if you take the solar system as a closed system. But for practical purposes you can treat it as though the earth simply revolves around the sun and explain 99.9999 percent of related phenomena, of course.

[Bolo Boffin]

27. Okay...

...either way, the earth is revolving around the sun.

The point being: If Bush said that the earth revolved around the sun, and you agreed with this, does it make you a Bush apologist? Is it evidence that you are in his pay to spread his disinformation?

No.

[Abe Linkman]

29. Fine, but how about YOU?

Would it be evidence that you are in his pay to spread disinformation?

[Bolo Boffin]

40. Well, um, no. That's the point.

I'm sorry if you can't understand what I'm trying to say. I don't know how much simpler I can say it.

[LARED]

28. Well, I just don't know what to say

I've never been accused of being an ever-faithful hound, tail thumping the floor as I contentedly slorp the hand of class authority.

You really need to understand there is a vast difference between actually looking at objective reality, rejecting speculation, dealing with the evidence, and this notion that we are all trained to look up to and love the political class nonsense.

I think the author of this tripe spent too much time in psych class and not enough time in a real world.

I haven't trusted any government since I was about 14 years old. The official story has been questioned to death, and so far it remains pretty solid. Not complete, but mostly intact.


In reality it is the tin hatter that adapts their beliefs to any circumstance. To believe there is some massive conspiracy surrounding 9/11 requires rationalization that borders on some type of pathology. I for one will not reject reality to fulfill some fantasy.

If that makes your day enjoy!

[Abe Linkman]

30. Lared: You might have a future in comedy (especially farcical comedy)

"The official story has been questioned to death, and so far it remains pretty solid. Not complete, but mostly intact."

[LARED]

31. And I await the day

Mr Linkman can provide any credible evidence that debunks what is know as the official story.

[Abe Linkman]

32. Have you been in a coma for the past two years?

While the liberal-owned conservative media has maintained its traditional function as stenographers to power; the Internet has provided an abundance of research that debunks the Official Version Conspiracy Theory.

[LARED]

33. I didn't ask you for

an internet provided abundance of research that debunks the official version conspiracy theory, I asked you for evidence.

Do you understand the difference between evidence and research?

[Abe Linkman]

34. Abundance of research shows no credible evidence for O.S.C.T.

I asked if you have been in a coma for the past two years because during that time a ton of research has been done which debunks the Official Story Conspiracy Theory. As far as discrediting any evidence in support of the Official Story Conspiracy; there hasn't been any credible evidence released.

Why do you still support the long-discredited Official Version Story?

[LARED]

35. Why?

Because for the most part it is the only reality based theory that exists. When something comes along that is not based on wild speculation and or sophistry let me know.

BTW you never answered if you know the difference between evidence and research?

Do you?

[Abe Linkman]

36. UNreality-based propaganda

At least you admit that the Official Version Story is at best only a theory.

And it's such an absurd theory (actually, it's a continually changing theory, which I doubt you or boloboffin could present other than in a very generalized way) that it only took a few days before thinking people began to realize it was all BS.

[OudeVanDagen]

37. Geez

" ..... the Internet has provided an abundance of research that debunks the Official Version ..... "

Well ... it depends on where you choose to point and click. WTC for example:

If you point and click on research done in Mom's dusty and musty basement by self-proclaimed experts ..... well then yes, your statement is true.

If you point and click on research done out in the field that started on site during recovery, followed by work in the Kills, and then in labs with carefully selected and random pieces; done - and still underway - at the world's finest colleges, by individuals with nothing to gain or loose either way ..... well then no, your statement is untrue.

The real investigation has challenged the early reports; but so far, and for the most part, has only better defined and enhanced them. Summaries are available .... just point and click. Complete unabridged and unredacted hard copies are for the most part available and easily ordered, but save your allowance .... not cheap.

Can't find the real investigation? Go past page 1 of your search .... or follow the money. What colleges, labs, and institutions received grants and funding? Point .... click. Hey, I'd tell you, but nobody did my homework .... why should I do yours?

[DulceDecorum]

38. RE: "nothing to gain or lose"

Heard of Wellstone?

http://www.counterpunch.org/madsen1025.html
First confirmation of the tragedy came not from the Senator's office or that of Minnesota's governor, http://www.counterpunch.org/madsen1025.html
http://bushspeaks.com/home.asp?did=103

Incidentally,
I have been searching for you,
OudeVanDagen,
to ask you WHY you attacked me so bitterly a few weeks ago.

If I recall correctly, you were taking extreme umbrage,
with research that I and others on this forum, have been conducting.
It seems to me that
you were most put out by the fact that
MOST PEOPLE with an IQ above their shoe size
have INDEPENDENTLY figured out that that the Official Story is FALSE.
But then again, most people here are NOT conservative idiots.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/top10/02/76.html

Now, before you go and heap more abuse on my head,
let me remind you that
Richard Nixon once said something to the effect that if
he had lost the respect and support of Walter Cronkite,
then there was nothing left to fight for.
Well,
Mr. Cronkite just published a column entitled
"Is Bush's speech to be trusted?"
It appears that Mr. Cronkite has his doubts.
Here is an excerpt from an interview with Larry King.

KING: Do you think this is a mistake or do you think we were misled?

CRONKITE: By whom?

KING: By the administration, weapons of mass destruction and the like, fed to the United States.

CRONKITE: Oh, yes. I think we were misled. I think it's a question seriously of whether that was deliberately done or whether it was just their vocabulary got ahead of their thinking.

KING: Do you think they wanted to go to war in Iraq?

CRONKITE: Oh, I don't have any doubt about that, no. They saw this as a necessity and they were making whatever case they could to convince us all that we had to go and go then.

KING: Why would you want to go war? Why would you want to go to war?

CRONKITE: Well, I think we can accept that as an honest situation on their side, perfectly, talking about the government, this administration's side.

I think the president was convinced that Hussein was a living danger to us, and had to be eliminated. And that's a perfectly legitimate objective. It's kind of how we were then led into it, and the planning, which, obviously, we know now was inadequate and has led to the situation we have today.
http://www.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0309/10/lkl.00.html

From this one can easily see that Mr. Cronkite,
like many on this forum,
does not agree with the Official Stories emanating from the PSYOPS
Office of Strategic Influence.
The office was quietly set up after September 11 as part of the Bush administration's overall effort to reach Islamic populations around the world.
http://www.cnn.com/2002/US/02/19/gen.strategic.influence/

Perhaps BushCo really do believe their own stories,
lord knows they have been telling them long enough,
but unfortunately for them, the Official Story is NOT true and is therefore easily debunked.
Besides which, since BuchCo continues to stall and impede ANY and ALL investigations into the actual nature of the events of September 11, then it is commonly supposed that they have a personal and very compelling reason for doing so.

You will recall that BushCo unleashed the dogs of war upon this planet as a direct response to the events of September 11, 2001.
Many of us here and elsewhere, would have much preferred a thorough and careful examination of the events of September 11.
We believe that we must first CORRECTLY identify the perpetrators before we begin punishment and contrary to whatever Ann Coulter may say, this is NOT treason.
Treason consists of betraying the oath you took to UPHOLD and DEFEND the Constitution of the United States, and that pretty much covers a certain very large group of people.
http://www.vallejonews.com/articles/index.cfm?artoid=145212

Since THIS is a board which does NOT subscribe to the "compassionate conservative" viewpoint,
it puzzles me greatly OudeVanDagen,
as to why you would argue so vehemently in support of George W Bush.


http://jeffcrook.20m.com/mad.html

And we've got a job to do at home, as well. You know, I was campaigning in Chicago and somebody asked me, is there ever any time where the budget might have to go into deficit? I said only if we were at war or had a national emergency or were in recession. (Laughter.) Little did I realize we'd get the trifecta. (Laughter.) But we're fine.
http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2002/02/20020227-6.html
http://www.democraticunderground.com/articles/02/03/06_skids.html

[OudeVanDagen]

39. Research?

Funny how researchers can find explosive residue from WW2 in Berlin but can't find any in the WTC rubble. Funny how some speak about the melting temperature of WTC steel and ray guns when research shows it was elastomeric temperatures that bought them down. Point and click .... life is all about choices.

[DulceDecorum]

44. What WTC rubble?

Wherdy go?
Afghanistan?
http://cnews.canoe.ca/CNEWSSept11/sep11_kabul-ap.html

They are not even supposed to export this type of stuff under normal everyday circumstances.

An international treaty in 1989, called the Basel Convention, was created to counter the unsustainable effects of trading in toxic wastes. In 1994, the convention agreed to adopt a total ban on the export of any hazardous wastes form rich to poor countries, including for recycling. The Basel Convention calls on all countries to reduce their hazardous wastes exports, and deal with waste management within national borders. To date, the United States is the only developed country in the world that has not ratified the Basel Convention.
http://www.svtc.org/cleancc/pubs/te...hnotrash_v3.pdf

Leave alone when there is a HUGE problem.

Yet metallurgical studies on WTC steel brought back to WPI reveal that a novel phenomenon--called a eutectic reaction--occurred at the surface, causing intergranular melting capable of turning a solid steel girder into Swiss cheese.
<snip>
The significance of the work on A SAMPLE FROM BUILDING 7 and a structural column from one of the twin towers becomes apparent only when one sees these heavy chunks of damaged metal.
A one-inch column has been reduced to half-inch thickness. Its edges--which are curled like a paper scroll--have been thinned to almost razor sharpness. Gaping holes--some larger than a silver dollar--let light shine through a formerly solid steel flange. This Swiss cheese appearance shocked all of the fire-wise professors, who expected to see distortion and bending--but not holes.
http://www.wpi.edu/News/Transformations/2002Spring/steel.html

You remember BUILDING 7 - the one that was so moved by the tragedy that it collapsed all by itself.
NO PLANE EVER TOUCHED BUILDING 7.
It just fainted clean away with the WTC flu.
Point and click.

[Name removed]

45. Deleted message

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[Name removed]

46. Deleted message

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[Name removed]

47. Deleted message

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[Abe Linkman]

48. Thanks. Very, very interesting.

"So they got on board with false IDs but used their real passports ?"

A minor point, but a good point.

What's the best thinking about why WTC 7 was imploded? To destroy what was inside the building (records and so forth)...or was it to enhance the perception of a major "attack"? Or was there some other reason or reasons?

[LARED]

50. WHAT ELASTOMERIC TEMPERATURES?

DD

Go to google search and type in elastic and plastic steel temperatures. Spend a few weeks reading about it.

WHAT TESTING FOR EXPLOSIVE RESIDUE?

Huh, The link to the antisemitic revisionist Nazi lover Christopher Bollyn says not a word about testing for residue.

[DulceDecorum]

61. Yeah, what elastometric temperatures?

Lared, I did a search of that just as you asked but I did not get anything that made any sense.

Seeing as YOU understand how elastomers and steel are intertwined, would you be so kind as to enlighten the rest of us?

PS.
Please refrain from using epithets such as
"antisemitic revisionist Nazi lover."
Some people are very sensitive about such matters.
http://www.commondreams.org/views03/1006-08.htm
http://www.nhgazette.com/cgi-bin/NHGstore.cgi?user_action=detail&catalogno=NN_Bush_Nazi%20Link
http://www.scoop.co.nz/mason/stories/HL0306/S00055.htm
http://www.scoop.co.nz/mason/stories/HL0310/S00193.htm

[LARED]

62. elastometric temperatures????

Seeing as YOU understand how elastomers and steel are intertwined, would you be so kind as to enlighten the rest of us?

Sure.

First off, elastomers and steel are not intertwined. You do not understand the point that was trying to be made.

Steel has elastic qualities.

This property changes based on temperature and other factors. If you fix a steel rod to the ceiling, then add weight to the bottom at some fixed quantity, the steel will stretch an equal amount for each unit of weight added. One unit of weight equals one unit change in length. It acts like a very very stiff rubber band. The nice part about this is that it will resume it original length after the weight is removed. The same as an elastic band resumes its original length once no one is stretching it anymore. This is called elastic deformation

This only works up to a certain point. If too much weight or force is added the steel will deform and not resume its original geometry. This is called plastic deformation. A wire coat hanger is a good example. In the manufacturing of the hanger the steel wire is bent into the standard shape. If you took a wire cutter and snipped it in one spot, it does not unbend to its original shape it pretty much stays bent.

Now back to temperature. The point where steel remains in the elastic range under a given stress (or force) is dependent on it temperature. Steel at say 300 deg F will be in its elastic range at some stress level, but will be into its plastic range under the same stress level at a temp of 1200 deg, and possibly have failed at say 1400 deg F.

So the point you missed is that steel does not have to melt to fail, all it needs to be is hot enough at a given stress to leave its elastic range, go ito it plastic range where the steel permanently deforms and has failed.

Regarding Bollyn

Calling him a antisemitic revisionist Nazi lover is really being kind. If you view him as a legitimate source of information, you have my condolences.

[Bolo Boffin]

63. So as I understand this...

When the planes flew into the WTC, they damaged portions of the structure. Other parts of the structure took up the load that the damaged portions had been supported. There was also the fire, which heated the steel up. And finally the wind stresses, dealt with in the undamaged structure, were able to twist the damaged structure back and forth, causing acute stresses in newly loaded areas that were also subject to heat stresses. Finally, the areas of the structure most stressed gave way (moved into plastic deformation range), throwing their load (both) to other structural elements that were still dealing with wind and fire stresses. As this dominoed through the structure, the buildings finally reached the point where no structural element was able to deal with the stresses for any amount of time, and the buildings collapsed on top of themselves.

I imagine that steel would reach plastic deformation at lower heat temperatures if subjected to other stresses, such as wind stress and load stress.

[DulceDecorum]

66. So where

do the molten pools of steel fit in?
http://www.americanfreepress.net/09_03_02/NEW_SEISMIC_/new_seismic_.html
http://www.whatreallyhappened.com/shake2.html

Almost 12 weeks after the terrorist atrocity at New York's World Trade Center, there is at least one fire still burning in the rubble - it is the longest-burning structural fire in history.
http://www.newscientist.com/news/news.jsp?id=ns99991634
Does anyone know where I can purchase some of this type of jetfuel?
I would like to heat my house for the entire winter (about 12 weeks) and I figure a couple gallons should do the trick. Especially once the "sympathy" factor takes effect.

Suicidal terrorists flew two hijacked passenger aeroplanes into the twin towers of the World Trade Center (WTC) on Tuesday, and they collapsed an hour later.
The third structure - called Seven World Trade Center (7WTC) - came down at about 1730 local time, and seven and a half hours after the South Tower collapsed. 7WTC was part of the WTC complex and stood in the shadow of the main towers, 100 metres away.
<snip>
But while the shock waves probably weakened 7WTC, fire in the building was ultimately responsible for its collapse, says Elghazouli. He says that temperatures of 900 to 1000°C would have melted the structure's supports, though this would have taken time.
Elghazouli believes that this was behind the main towers' collapse. "The initial impact took out some of the supporting elements, but the actual collapse was due to the enormous temperatures generated by the fire," he says.
http://journals.iranscience.net:800/www.newscientist.com/www.newscientist.com/hottopics/usterror/usterror.jsp@id=ns99991285

See what I mean?
The sympathy factor may take a little while longer to kick in, but it gets the job done just the same.
I figure that if I light a jet-fuel fire in one fireplace, all the other fireplaces in the house will feel sympathetic, and start generating heat the same amount of heat just like they did on September 11, 2001.
But then again,
I just might have to get one of them thar Muslims to come and bend the laws of physics for me.

Preliminary metallurgical analysis indicated that temperatures in excess of 1,000infinityC in conjunction with the presence of sulphur had caused surface melting and severe thinning of the steel section.
BUT NO SOURCE FOR THE SULPHUR COULD BE IDENTIFIED - AND THERE WAS NO WAY OF KNOWING WHETHER THE REACTION WITH SULPHUR HAD ACTUALLY BEGUN LONG BEFORE 11 SEPTEMBER.
Such a reaction might have reduced the steel's resistance to fire, FEMA suggested.
This could help to explain the catastrophic collapse of WTC7 which burned unchecked for seven hours, but fire experts are yet to be convinced.
http://isearch.televisual.co.uk/asset/GetArticle.exe?DB=e2&DATABASE=e2&LABEL=emap2&RECORD=155361&SEARCH=1

Something caused Building 7 to collapse.
The question is - exactly what did?
And since there is no dicernible difference
between the steel samples taken from either of the Twin Towers and those taken from Building 7,
then HOW can we conclude that it is the jetfuel
from the Boeing (which FEMA says burned off within minutes)
that caused the hitherto unprecendented
catastrophic collapse of the World Trade Center?

[LARED]

77. Okee Dokee

do the molten pools of steel fit in

What molten steel are you talking about. The only thing credible I have seen is molten metal was discovered. To which I say so what?

Almost 12 weeks after the terrorist atrocity at New York's World Trade Center, there is at least one fire still burning in the rubble - it is the longest-burning structural fire in history.
http://www.newscientist.com/news/news.jsp?id=ns99991634
Does anyone know where I can purchase some of this type of jetfuel?

DD, the jet fuel burned off pretty quickly (duh). The other combustible materials continued to burn. Or do you think the building were empty when they were hit? You know paper, wood, plastic, carpets etc. Really this ain't brain surgery.

BUT NO SOURCE FOR THE SULPHUR COULD BE IDENTIFIED - AND THERE WAS NO WAY OF KNOWING WHETHER THE REACTION WITH SULPHUR HAD ACTUALLY BEGUN LONG BEFORE 11 SEPTEMBER.

So? Why not just read what the offical report says about eutectic reactions.

http://www.fema.gov/pdf/library/fema403_ch8.pdf
http://www.house.gov/science/hot/wtc/wtc-report/WTC_apndxC.pdf

[LARED]

74. Reply

There was also the fire, which heated the steel up.

Yep

And finally the wind stresses, dealt with in the undamaged structure, were able to twist the damaged structure back and forth, causing acute stresses in newly loaded areas that were also subject to heat stresses.

Most likely

Finally, the areas of the structure most stressed gave way (moved into plastic deformation range), throwing their load (both) to other structural elements that were still dealing with wind and fire stresses.

Yes, but this type of steel can experience plastic deformation and not catastrophically fail. I think an area of the building gave way due to being overloaded (from loss of strength due to the heated steel) that started a local collapse. This local failure then overstressed other areas by impacting the structure below or possibly just the lose of needed support caused a catastrophic failure of overstressed supports. Once this happened and floors started to pancake it was all over.

As this dominoed through the structure, the buildings finally reached the point where no structural element was able to deal with the stresses for any amount of time, and the buildings collapsed on top of themselves.

I think so.

I imagine that steel would reach plastic deformation at lower heat temperatures if subjected to other stresses, such as wind stress and load stress.

Yes, that is the main point being made. Stress is stress. Whether it is induced from wind or gravity makes little difference to the steel. As the temperature increases the ability to manage stress decreases. As the steel's temperature rises, its ability to remain elastic under a particular stress level decreases. Once it moves into a stress level that cause plastic deformation lots of bad thing start to happen. The structure losses rigidity, strength, load bearing capability, bolts will break, floors will sag, columns will lose lateral support, etc. Also the heat cause the steel to expand well outside of design condition causing stress in places that would not be there under ambient temperature.



The actual failure mechiniusm will eventually be worked out by engineers. What the exact sequence of events that resulted in this failure is not know at this time

[LARED]

97. I finally found the paper I was looking for

http://www.civil.canterbury.ac.nz/fire/pdfreports/JSepturo.pdf

Warning it's not for the faint of heart if you're unfamiliar with the engineering aspects under discussion.

[Abe Linkman]

140. Pure speculation, unworthy of consideration

Bolo...please provide a link to an UNbiased third party (not employed by H & Knowlton or any agency of the U.S. Gov't) which proves once and for all that your theory isn't just idle speculation put out by the Gov't.

[DulceDecorum]

67. "Virgin Bolt Phenomenon" ?

http://www.superbolt.com/virginboltphenom.htm

Lared,
what happens to the steel AFTER it leaves that plastic deformation range?
Does the streching cause it to become softer and more malleable,
or does it cause it to become stiffer and more "strong" - assuming the temperature remains the same?
I am still having difficulty getting your point.

STATEMENT:
However, it is highly unlikely that the structural steel at the WTC experienced temperatures above the 750–800°C range, given it's ability to rapidly conduct heat away from the fire-exposed areas. ALL REPORTS THAT THE STEEL MELTED AT 1,500°C ARE USING IMPRECISE TERMINOLOGY AT BEST.

Some reports suggest that the aluminum from the aircraft ignited, creating very high temperatures. While it is possible to ignite aluminum under special conditions, such conditions are not commonly attained in a hydrocarbon-based diffuse flame. In addition, the flame would be white hot, like a giant sparkler. There was no evidence of such aluminum ignition, which would have been visible even through the dense soot.

It is known that structural steel begins to soften around 425°C and loses about half of its strength at 650°C.4 This is why steel is stress relieved in this temperature range. But even a 50% loss of strength is still insufficient, by itself, to explain the WTC collapse. It was noted above that the wind load controlled the design allowables. The WTC, on this low-wind day, was likely not stressed more than a third of the design allowable, which is roughly one-fifth of the yield strength of the steel. EVEN WITH ITS STRENGTH HALVED, THE STEEL COULD STILL SUPPORT TWO TO THREE TIMES THE STRESSES IMPOSED BY A 650°C FIRE.

COMMENT:
Note that in all of the discussion of fire temperatures and steel weakening the authors never point out the differece between flame temperature and steel temperature, implying that they are the same. This ignores the very high thermal conductivity of steel. In actual tests of hydrocarbon-fueld fires in car parks with exposed steel structures, concucted by Chorus Construction, the highest recorded temperature of any of the steel an any of the many tests was 360°C.

STATEMENT:
The additional problem was distortion of the steel in the fire. The temperature of the fire was not uniform everywhere, and the temperature on the outside of the box columns was clearly lower than on the side facing the fire. The temperature along the 18 m long joists was certainly not uniform. Given the thermal expansion of steel, a 150°C temperature difference from one location to another will produce yield-level residual stresses. This produced distortions in the slender structural steel, which resulted in buckling failures.

COMMENT:
Interesting that no buckling can be seen in any of the video and photographic evidence. Only the instantaneous onset of a telescoping collapse, accompanied by explosions.
http://911research.wtc7.net/disinfo/experts/articles/eagar_jom/eagar_0112.html

Tell me more about the elastometric temperatures.
And Hook's law.

[LARED]

79. Tell you what ---

how about you telling me about elastometric temperatures and Hook's law.

After all you now feel comfortable posting a rejoinder to the comments of a Professor of Materials Engineering.

The problem is you don't even understand what he is saying.

[DulceDecorum]

80. PAGING OudeVanDagen

In Post # 39. Research?
OudeVanDagen wrote:
"Funny how researchers can find explosive residue from WW2 in Berlin but can't find any in the WTC rubble. Funny how some speak about the melting temperature of WTC steel and ray guns when research shows it was ELASTOMERIC TEMPERATURES that bought them down. Point and click .... life is all about choices. "

It would appear that nobody here has any idea of what OudeVanDagen meant when he used the term "elastomeric temperature."

Perhaps it, like al Qaeda, does not exist in this context.

[LARED]

82. How do you figure?

So far you are the only one that seems puzzled?

[DulceDecorum]

84. CNN or the Journal of Irreproducible Results

might have something on the effect of elastomeric temperatures on the steel beams in the World Trade Center.
These two publications are invaluable to the scientific community.

http://www.cnn.com/2001/WORLD/asiapcf/central/11/16/ret.amanpour.otsc/
http://www.alternet.org/story.html?StoryID=11935

[LARED]

85. Please step away from

the bong.

[DulceDecorum]

93. Lared,

what exactly are you doing with a bong?
http://abcnews.go.com/wire/Entertainment/ap20031205_1539.html
And why would YOU drag it into a discussion on the effect of elastomeric temperatures on WTC steel?


GOVERNOR RIDGE: Well, one of the challenges as we have faced a bioterrorist threat over the past four or five weeks is the notion that our responsibility as a country is to be prepared for biological and chemical and radiological and nuclear. And the mission of providing homeland security is to enhance our capacity to detect, prevent and even respond to those kinds of events.
And I would say the fact that we have discovered that one of the safe houses that bin Laden's associates or al Qaeda had some materials relative to a nuclear threat is certainly consistent with his statements that he would like to acquire that capacity. It is not to say, it does not confirm that he has the capacity, it just says that whether it's bin Laden or some other potential foe of this country, we have to be prepared for all eventualities, including a nuclear threat.
http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2001/11/20011115-5.html

Listen,
if Tom Ridge and his cohorts are lying awake shuddering at the thought of a Taliban-made nuclear bomb being detonated under the beds,
http://www.improb.com/airchives/classical/jstuff/v36/public-believe-36-5.html
I can only say
"that's not what Jim Boren
http://www.jimboren.com/inataprobu.html
meant when he said his wife felt the earth move."

The Bush Administration today confirmed documents relating to the construction of nuclear weapons were found in a Taliban house in Kabul. Homeland Security Secretary, Tom Ridge, said the documents were easily accessible on the internet.
http://www.abc.net.au/am/s418160.htm

Oooh so scary!
We need a FLAMING RAINBOW alert.

Hey,
I have an idea!
Lets ALL make nuclear bombs!!
Then we can make our own pre-emptive strikes whenever we want to!!!
Yaay!!
Here are Osama's notes which have been Rendon-ed into English.

The rumors that have unfortunately occurred as a result of widespread misinformation can (and must) be cleared up now, for the construction project this month is the construction of a thermonuclear device, which will hopefully clear up any misconceptions you might have about such a project. We will see how easy it is to make a device of your very own in ten easy steps, to have and hold as you see fit, without annoying interference from the government or the courts.
http://winn.com/bs/atombomb.html

THIS is the al Qeada that we are all so afraid of.
God help us all if they ever discover the effect of peanut butter on the rotation of the earth.
http://www.improb.com/airchives/classical/articles/peanut_butter_rotation.html

[Name removed]

96. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[OudeVanDagen]

98. At long last .....

... maybe ... some honesty: " .... nobody here has any idea .... "

Protocol for the studies of any structural collapse involving fire defines the elastomeric temperatures of that event. Quite frankly .... not having "any idea" of this basic finding suggests your conclusions and statements are based on insufficent research and knowledge in this area.

[DulceDecorum]

99. I double dare any of you to properly define

an elastomeric temperature and explain the difference between that (if any) and a regular ordinary boring temperature.
And I triple dare you to tell us all what an elastomer is.

Your science is even more junky that the contents of a certain nose.

[LARED]

103. In good conscious I must tell you

that you are now completely embarrassing yourself.

[DulceDecorum]

106. I am NOT

the owner of that nose.
Even the Iraqi Information Minister
http://www.welovetheiraqiinformationminister.com/#quotes
will vouch for that.

And I am not at all put out by the inablilty of certain parties to respond in truth to my dare.

[OudeVanDagen]

107. Dare? .

Look, no nasty comments here .... but in all honesty it would be much easier for you .... and even beneficial for you .... to give a few minutes of attention to the protocols ... the practices and principals ... the SOPs .... for the investigation of a structural collapse than to dare or draw lines in the sand.

[DulceDecorum]

100. Yeah

yours.

OudeVanDagen,
YOU came up with that statement and
YOU are unable to defend it.

OudeVanDagen-who-reminds-me-of-someone-who-got-banned,
your inability to define a term that only YOU have used here,
"suggests your conclusions and statements are based on insufficent research and knowledge in this area."

Now,
let's see if you can come up with ANYTHING other than
an obfuscation or
an acerbic attack on
the integrity of a democrat or progressive poster on this forum.

Here is a true test of YOUR "knowledge".
Define a NON-elastomeric temperature.
Let's see if you can do THAT without resorting to cheap abuse.

[OudeVanDagen]

108. Defend! Defend what?

How does one go about defending one of the most basic terms used by engineers and investigators following simple collapse protocol?

Watch it now .... me attacking a Dem? ME? Where do you get that? Harry S and every Dem since has appreciated my vote. I AM attacking anyone who is putting their mouth in motion before their brain is in gear. Quite frankly .... speaking about what happened or about what did not happened at WTC .... and not knowing anything about elastomeric temps is the classic example of putting the cart before the horse.

[OudeVanDagen]

109. P.S.

Before anyone starts posting the old links to legislation for the "new" federal investigation team for collapse and terror related castastrophic events .... remember your history: Dallas Police initally investigated the murder of JFK and Los Angeles Police investigated RFK's .... NOW under the law an assination of a President or Presidential contender is investigated by ... AND FUNDED ... by the feds. ALL the new legislation for collapse and terror related castastrophic events does is FUND and unify the agencies under one command.

[DulceDecorum]

121. No definition

of an elastomeric temperature.

OudeVanDagen says:
"How does one go about defending one of the most basic terms used by engineers and investigators following simple collapse protocol?"

Simple.
Refer back to your first year engineering notes.
Naturally, this advice will not help you if you attended a certain engineering school....

[OudeVanDagen]

124. Advice?

The best advice that can be offered to anyone participating in these forums is to do some reading on structural collapse .... Kemper Arena, L'Ambiance, or KC Hyatt. Learn the collapse protocols investigators followed. Yes ... no fire involved in the three I listed ... fire protocols still included.

You REALLY don't know about elastomeric temps? It's awfully easy, even the freshmen I taught knew it on day one ..... I guess there must be different kind of libraries where you live.

[DulceDecorum]

126. And he cannot bring himself to admit

that HE does not know what an elastometric temperature
(or even an elastomer)
actually is.

Therefore it is OUR fault.
And he will NEVER explain it.
Perhaps he skipped class on freshman day one.

People,
this is what happens when you ask questions.
Someone who truly knows their stuff will be able to explain themselves.
If they cannot explain themselves, despite numerous requests and ample opportunity, then one cannot continue to assume that any meangful dialogue is possible.

And speaking of meaningful dialogue,
OudeVanDegan,
author of
Post #85 of
Scientist and Son-in-law identify "cutting charges" in WTC demolition:

Lared,
"laughable" too kind.
Inudating these forums with boring and inaccurate posts PP & DD could best use their time checking protocols utilized for investigation of the collapsed buildings and read the results presently available. All I see is their use of bizarre reports made by inexperienced unknowledgable selfserving photo-op seeking big mouthed publicity hungry pencil neck geeks that popped into and out of the collapse site for a few hours and then split to run their mouths. Nothing from those that spent never ending days countless weeks and months on the ground in trucks in barges and in the kills. Hell, remember the post where PP couldn't tell a column from a column cover? Stupid is as stupid does.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=125&topic_id=269&mesg_id=390&page=

I think that is is high time I quote your last line back to you.

[Bolo Boffin]

127. DD's line is quite the chuckler

If they cannot explain themselves, despite numerous requests and ample opportunity, then one cannot continue to assume that any meangful dialogue is possible.

Could you give us some conclusions please, DD? What is the TRUTH behind all the alleged lies you're exposing here? Tell us right now in plain English just what you think caused the damage at the Pentagon. No links, please, just this once. No goobledy-gook. Just your plain, unadorned conclusions - because it's been a year since I've been asking you to do this.

Conclude, please, Dulce. Just this once.

[OudeVanDagen]

128. You claim ...

... you've done research. IF you have (and that's an awfully big IF) you would know what ET (elastomeric temperature) is ..... maybe even HDT.

HDT .... you probably know what that is too ... you know - from your research.

No, it's not High Definition Television ....

Do you know anything... ANYTHING ... about structural terminologies?

Thank you for furnishing my quote. This old Dutchman sometimes forgets his eloquence.

[Abe Linkman]

130. Funny; I'd have sworn you're British.

"This old Dutchman sometimes forgets his eloquence."

In any event, if you know what elastomeric temperature is, how about telling those of us who've never heard of it before?

[DulceDecorum]

136. "Dutch" eloquence?

http://www.fortunecity.com/bennyhills/pun/190/boomhauerkingofthehill.htm

[Bolo Boffin]

41. Dulce, Dulce, Dulce

The lies of the Bush administration about WMD in Iraq are not proof that they are lying about the events and perps of 9/11. No one here is saying that BushCo doesn't lie. But even liars must tell the truth sometimes, if they want to continue being in a position to tell lies.

The lies of the Bush adminstration about WMD in Iraq have been exposed by the evidence. Clear, uncontrovertable evidence. The kind that convinces people like Walter Cronkite.

Do you believe that Cronkite shares your fantasies of Flight 77 denial and WTC controlled demolitions? He does not, because the evidence from that day supports other conclusions. Your appropriation of his stature for support of your theories borders on slander of the gentleman.

Arguing for the truth of what happened on 9/11 is NOT support of George W. Bush, though you rant and rave about this constantly. Flight 77 hit the Pentagon, the WTC collapsed as a result of the airplane crashes alone, and Al Qaeda planned and carried out these attacks. Bush couldn't have hid the truth of that day - too many people were watching.

One wonders why you and others here are arguing so vehemently to exonerate Al Qaeda on a liberal board. Hmmm?

[DulceDecorum]

49. You are either with us, or ........

Incidentally, I looked up the definition of "liberal" in a Random House dictionary. It gave the synonyms for "liberal" as "progressive," "broad-minded," "unprejudiced," "beneficent." The antonyms it offered: "reactionary" and "intolerant."
I've always suspected those fine folks at Random House of being liberals. You just can't trust anybody these days.
http://www.philly.com/mld/inquirer/news/editorial/6505567.htm

It was in the spirit of the Inquisition that the Justice Department announced recently that it would begin gathering data on judges who give sentences lighter than called for by legislative guidelines.
Nothing so clearly evokes Torquemada's spirit as Ashcroft's penchant for overruling U.S. attorneys who have sought lesser penalties in capital cases. The attorney general has done this at least 30 times since he took office, according to the Federal Death Penalty Resource Counsel. In several cases, Ashcroft actually has overturned plea bargains negotiated by those government prosecutors.
The New York Times editorialized that the attorney general seems to want the death penalty used more often.
Ashcroft is not alone in this. His boss, while governor of Texas, seemed never to have met a death sentence he didn't like.
http://www.denverpost.com/Stories/0,1413,36~29003~1640999,00.html

Rigged elections here seem especially scandalous today, as we preach to the Iraqis and others in the developing world the virtues of representative democracy and hold ourselves up as the paragon of that virtue. It is high time we cleaned up our own house.
http://www.denverpost.com/Stories/0,1413,36%257E29003%257E1734220,00.html

Bush cited a number of liberal themes. He identified himself with Wilson. His confession that "your nation and mine in the past have been willing to make a bargain to tolerate oppression for the sake of stability" has been a liberal complaint from the days of the Cold War to the present. He even embraced Bill Clinton's intervention in the Balkans, likening it to his own actions in Afghanistan and Iraq.
So, why did the speech sound off-key to me? For several reasons: In some instances, I have to question, if not Bush's sincerity, at least the depth of his conviction. That depth is suspect because of his poor record of following through. In Afghanistan, the pledge to reconstruct and democratize that country seemed all but abandoned in order to concentrate forces and finances on the invasion of Iraq.
<snip>
Today there is growing skepticism concerning his promise to stay the course in Iraq. With the security situation there worsening by the day, the decision to craft a new plan seemed not just defensible but mandatory. But suspicions were raised by the new timetable, which would put an Iraqi council in charge by next June and send a substantial number of American troops home.
It might be simply coincidental that this timing meshes with next year's re-election campaign. But coincidence does inspire some skepticism.
http://www.denverpost.com/Stories/0,1413,36%257E29003%257E1795418,00.html

Boloboffin said:
"But even liars must tell the truth sometimes, if they want to continue being in a position to tell lies."

A broken clock tells the correct time twice a day.
And that is a MUCH MUCH more than a certain administration does.

Bush HIMSELF has stated that there is no Saddam/WTC link.
Bush HIMSELF has stated that there is too a Saddam/WTC link.

"No, we've had no evidence that Saddam Hussein was involved with September the 11th," the president said yesterday after a meeting at the White House with lawmakers.
<snip>
In his May 1 speech announcing the end of major combat in Iraq, Bush said, "The battle of Iraq is one victory in a war on terror that began on September the 11th, 2001." He added: "With those attacks, the terrorists and their supporters declared war on the United States. And war is what they got."
Bush, while seeing no link between Hussein and the attacks, said yesterday that Iraq was linked to Osama bin Laden's terror organization. "There's no question that Saddam Hussein had al Qaeda ties," he said. Some terrorism experts dispute the extent of those ties, but the ties are not disputed as vigorously as the link between Hussein and the Sept. 11 attacks.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/wp-dyn/A25571-2003Sep17?language=printer

Boloboffin says:
"Arguing for the truth of what happened on 9/11 is NOT support of George W. Bush, though you rant and rave about this constantly. Flight 77 hit the Pentagon, the WTC collapsed as a result of the airplane crashes alone, and Al Qaeda planned and carried out these attacks. Bush couldn't have hid the truth of that day - too many people were watching."

WASHINGTON (CNN) -- President Bush personally asked Senate Majority Leader Tom Daschle Tuesday to limit the congressional investigation into the events of September 11, congressional and White House sources told CNN.
The request was made at a private meeting with congressional leaders Tuesday morning. Sources said Bush initiated the conversation.
<snip>
Although the president and vice president told Daschle they were worried a wide-reaching inquiry could distract from the government's war on terrorism, PRIVATELY DEMOCRATS QUESTIONED WHY WHITE HOUSE FEARED A BROADER INVESTIGATION TO DETERMINE POSSIBLE CULPABILITY.
http://www.cnn.com/2002/ALLPOLITICS/01/29/inv.terror.probe/

But at least one member of Congress treated the White House admission as a form of vindication: Rep. Cynthia McKinney, D-Georgia, called in April for an investigation into reports the Bush administration ignored warnings of the September 11 attacks.
She was widely criticized for her comments in which she also suggested that some people in the administration stood to profit from the war on terror.
McKinney -- an outspoken liberal -- charged Thursday that the administration had engaged in a "conspiracy of silence" and lashed out at her critics.
"I was derided by the White House, right-wing talk radio (drug addicts) and spokespersons for the military industrial complex as a conspiracy theorist," she said in a written statement.
"Even my patriotism was questioned because I dared to suggest that Congress should conduct a full and complete investigation into the most disastrous intelligence failure in American history.
http://www.cnn.com/2002/ALLPOLITICS/05/16/president.gop.senators/

We are moving into a land of both shadow and substance, of things and ideas. Welcome. We just crossed over into the Twilight Zone, otherwise known as George Bush's America. For it is here and only here that the White House could receive warning after warning of massive attacks that were going to take place on American soil, the attack happens, and both the President and the Vice President, in separate phone calls to TOM DASCHLE, ask that Congress not investigate what happened and why. That could only happen in the Twilight Zone.
http://www.cronus.com/zone/

Boloboffin said:
"One wonders why you and others here are arguing so vehemently to exonerate Al Qaeda on a liberal board. Hmmm?"

"If you ask whether we condemn the Sept. 11 attack, we're with you," says one South American diplomat. "But is more violence the best answer? The Americans don't leave room for alternative opinions. When will countries speak out: after 1,000, 100,000, or 1 million more are killed?"
http://www.csmonitor.com/2001/1114/p7s1-wogi.html

How many more people do you want to die, Boloboffin?
How many more of your own soldiers do you want to see maimed in the name of al qaeda?

KHANABAD, Dec. 7, 2001 -- Scores of U.S. soldiers wounded in Afghanistan
have been arriving at the Khanabad air base in southern Uzbekistan - far
more than Pentagon reports suggest.
A staging post for special forces' and humanitarian missions into
Afghanistan, the base has become busy with another task - receiving
increasing numbers of Americans wounded in the fighting.
http://csf.colorado.edu/mail/psn/2001/msg01852.html

A half hour away, at Andrews Air Force Base, the tennis court and gymnasium of the fitness center have become a medical staging facility for those evacuated from the war zone. More than 7,500 have come through since April.
In addition to the nearly 1,900 who have gone on to Walter Reed, another 1,500 have been sent to the National Naval Medical Center in Bethesda, Md., which treats the injured from the Navy and Marines. Several thousand less seriously wounded soldiers have been sent directly to some of the military's dozens of smaller hospitals and clinics around the country.
http://www.truthout.org/docs_03/111103B.shtml

From The Northern Virginia Journal,
Thursday, July, 10, 2003
The credit union, located in Old Town Alexandria, set the staff challenge just before Memorial Day after it initially had worked with the George Washington chapter of the Association of the U.S. Army to provide sweat suits for wounded military personnel being treated at Walter Reed.
The credit union later found that many of the patients recuperating at the hospital did not have personal items, clothes or shoes.
Families who came to Washington to be with their loved ones found places to stay on the hospital grounds. Food and other expenses, however, usually are not covered by the Fisher House Foundation, which provided the housing.
http://www.pentagonfoundation.org/newsroom/7102003.html

LANDSTUHL, Germany
(Army News Service, Sept. 22, 2003)
Thousands of service members wounded in Iraq and Afghanistan have been treated at Landstuhl Regional Medical Center and many have been provided clothing, shoes or personal hygiene products by the chaplain’s clothes closet.
<snip>
As of Sept. 16,(2003) Landstuhl has treated approximately 6,000 service members from Operation Iraqi Freedom and 1,800 patients from Operation Enduring Freedom. Wood says the clothes closet has helped about 6,000 individuals, including patients’ escorts and family members.
http://www4.army.mil/ocpa/read.php?story_id_key=5247

Boloboffin,
how many more of your own soldiers do you want to see dead?

With a short run, they wheeled the patient into the trauma room. Hilliard stood at the head of the cot while the rest of the staff crowded around the sides, hooking up IVs, touching every inch of the soldier's body in a search for wounds and signs of life.
"Does he have a pulse?" Hilliard shouted. He turned around to reach for a sonogram that would show heart activity. "There's no pulse, no pulse!" a nurse responded.
http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/nationworld/2001804036_hospital30.html

``It's sad. You can't trust your own people,'' said Staff Sgt. Theresa Spicer, a supply sergeant with the brigade headquarters.
http://www.ajc.com/news/content/news/ap/ap_story.html/National/AP.V7161.AP-Soldier-Rape.html

Especially if you are GENUINELY interested in the TRUTH concerning the events of September 11, 2001.

[Bolo Boffin]

51. You only got diversions and evasions.

I only see one thing in your rambling hodgepodge of links worth responding to.

How many more people do you want to die, Boloboffin?
How many more of your own soldiers do you want to see maimed in the name of al qaeda?
how many more of your own soldiers do you want to see dead?


Peace and friendship with all mankind is our wisest policy, and I wish we may be permitted to pursue it.
— Thomas Jefferson

[DulceDecorum]

56. Evade this

Boloboffin said:
"The lies of the Bush administration about WMD in Iraq are not proof that they are lying about the events and perps of 9/11."
http://www.buzzflash.com/contributors/03/07/22_lies.html

How else could they have persuaded America to go to war against Iraq?
All these years of sanctions and bombing and they NEVER invaded Iraq. Then comes September 11 and all of a sudden Saddam must go.

Terrorists and terror states do not reveal these threats with fair notice, in formal declarations -- and responding to such enemies only after they have struck first is not self-defense, it is suicide. The security of the world requires disarming Saddam Hussein now.
http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2003/03/20030317-7.html

Without September 11, there would be no "war on terror."
Without September 11, there would be no invasion of Iraq.
Or Afghanistan - where the Taliban had halted the production of opium so that Afghanistan would not be a casualty of the "war on drugs."
http://www.buzzflash.com/contributors/03/07/22_sotu.html

Boloboffin,
you admit that Bush HAS BEEN LYING.
Why don't we go ahead and do to him what they did
to the last elected President who was caught lying?
Or this one?
http://www.loc.gov/rr/print/swann/herblock/crook.html

Poor Humpty.
Poor US.
What is going on here? How does the chief representative of the world's oldest constitutional democracy lose a popularity contest to the leader of a Leninist party?
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A27057-2003Dec1.html

[Bolo Boffin]

58. Go ahead and give Bush the Nixon treatment!

Please!

You want to rake Bush over the coals for lying about Iraqi connections to Al Qaeda, and the bait-and-switch that his advisors used to divert an entire country from the legitimate pursuit of our enemies to the illegitimate war against an obstacle to American corporate interests? BE MY GUEST!

But that still doesn't mean that BushCo planned for and carried out the 9/11 attacks. It doesn't mean that they shot a missile into the Pentagon, or used controlled explosives to down WTC 1, 2, and 7.

Evidence of lies in one situation is not evidence of lies in another. Everything said by the proven liars should be examined closely - that's just common sense - but even liars must deal with incontrovertible evidence sometimes.

If the plan was to attack Saddam after 9/11, why didn't they just frame him in the first place???? Why did they have to go through the entire Afghanistan charade????

If they could "fake" the Al Qaeda evidence, why wouldn't they just have faked Saddam evidence instead?

The truth is: Al Qaeda's operatives attacked America on 9/11. Even BushCo couldn't deny this. The evidence was so overwhelming that they had to fake the evidence of a link between Saddam and Al Qaeda to sell the public on the bait-and-switch to Iraq. That's where the lying commenced! That's what the lying was all about.

I'm quite willing to believe that they provoked Al Qaeda into the 9/11 attack. Saddam would never have invaded Kuwait again for the pretext. But I can never believe that the same gang of idiots who thought Chalabi could waltz into Iraq and solve all their problems could have pulled off the magic act you keep claiming for them! That's reason enough for them to put the kibosh on a true 9/11 investigation...

And then again, where's the freaking anthrax mailer??????? The FBI's got time to sort through dissentors' library records, and the anthrax mailer's still out there licking envelopes?

They put Al Qaeda on the investigatory sideburner, while painting the Afghani Taliban into a corner, never knowing that the desired terror attack they wanted would have been so horrific. They then stagemanaged the bait-and-switch, thinking that Chalabi would have been lionized as the Beast Saddam's replacement. Meanwhile, they keep twisting arms and extorting congressmen to get the legislation in place that they can present in the next campaign, and the next for Republican victories (the 2006 kick-in for the Medicare prescription drug plan will sure look nice in Dr. Bill Frist's 2008 portfolio, don't you know). The Republicans are UNFIT TO GOVERN.

That's how they lose popularity to the leader of a Leninist party. Impeach the bastards, and take down Scalia/Thomas in the process. But as long as you hold fast to these Flight 77 denial/WTC controlled demolition/oil-eating bacteria off the Florida coast fantasies, you only give aid and comfort to BushCo's continuing efforts at global hegemony.

[Abe Linkman]

59. Wherdy "overwhelming" evidence of OBL & 9-11?

bolo, you say:

"The evidence was so overwhelming"

I say: WHAT evidence? There is none. Zero. Zip. Nada. Nunca.

[Bolo Boffin]

64. Yes, but you won't look at the presented evidence.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=125&topic_id=4282&mesg_id=4301&page=

This is being discussed in this thread. Perhaps you missed it.

[Name removed]

70. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Abe Linkman]

78. No evidence there.

Got evidence? Show it. Release it. Don't just spin.

[Bolo Boffin]

88. Plenty of evidence there.

It's been shown. It's been released.

Why would you deny the hijackers their place in Paradise?

[Abe Linkman]

91. If evidence existed, we'd all know about it. You, too.

Why would you deny that the Administration lied when it said they'd be releasing proof that OBL is behind the "attacks" on 9-11?

[DulceDecorum]

60. And this is why I have to keep reminding y'all

that it does NOT matter what any one person thinks
(unless they are sitting on the US Supreme Court arbitrating Bush vs Gore.)

The only thing that is of lasting value is the TRUTH.
We think we know where our fearless leader was for much of that day.
But we STILL do not know exactly
who was the mastermind
nor
who were the minions.

People,
we have lost our collective mojo and
we need to nail the person who writes the script
for Dr. Evil
who hired the Fat Bastard
that took it away with one phone call
to one certain person.



Changing the cast of charcters will not alter the situation.
After all,
as we have all seen lately,
villains are replaceable.

"You can have people who are effectively copycat bombers who don't have any track record. Al-Qaeda is far from being a monolithic organisation with Osama bin Laden at the centre like some James Bond villain."
http://www.iol.co.za/index.php?click_id=24&art_id=qw1070287201804B226&set_id=1

But the SPECTRE remains.
http://homepages.nildram.co.uk/~prospero/bond/spectre.html

And the TRUTH remains hidden.

[Bolo Boffin]

65. Al Qaeda's all the more dangerous as a "terror consultancy"

Security analysts argued after last month's Istanbul suicide bombs that al-Qaeda, suspected mastermind behind the September 11 attacks, was becoming more of a "terror consultancy" that would supply know-how and finances.

http://www.iol.co.za/index.php?click_id=24&art_id=qw1070287201804B226&set_id=1

And the TRUTH remains hidden.

What is that hidden TRUTH, Dulce? Reveal it to us. What is your conclusion of what lies hidden behind all the lies you are exposing?

What are you trying to say?

[DulceDecorum]

68. I am flattered

by your assumption of my omniscience.

However,
the truth REMAINS hidden.
Were that not so
it would not be
the hidden truth.

Meanwhile,
questions abound.

Every day since the 9/11 attacks of 2001 there have been media reports about al-Qaeda - its leaders, members, capabilities, bank accounts, reach and threat. What is this al-Qaeda? Does such a group even exist?
Some terrorism experts doubt it.
http://www.spiked-online.com/Articles/00000006DFED.htm

Evan Williams: Does al-Qaeda exist in Indonesia?
Hamzah Haz: I don’t know, I don’t know.
http://www.abc.net.au/foreign/stories/s710402.htm

JO MAZZOCCHI: Does al-Qaeda exist in Australia?
RICHARD FENNING: Um, I don't know whether it exists in Australia.
http://www.abc.net.au/worldtoday/content/2003/s987565.htm

-Does al- Qaeda exist in Israel?
-It is not proven that al-Qaeda cells do exist in Israel, but different divisions have made their home in Palestine and waged war against Israel.
http://students.kings.edu/srohland/week2Isreal.html
http://www.vancouver.indymedia.org/news/2003/11/83695.php

Israeli Prime Minister Ariel Sharon drew Palestinian anger on Thursday when he said that al-Qaeda militants were operating in the Gaza Strip and Lebanon.
"We know that they are there. We know that they are in Lebanon, working closely with Hezbollah. We know that they are in the region," he said.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/2546863.stm
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,77248,00.html
http://www.smh.com.au/articles/2002/12/08/1038950271656.html
http://www.indybay.org/news/2003/02/1572495.php

Oct 17th 2002
But the president remains confident that America can fight terror simultaneously on this front and in Iraq. In his mind, of course (though he has not yet produced the evidence), they also remain connected. “We need to think”, he said on Monday, expanding this unproven theme, “about Saddam Hussein using al-Qaeda to do his dirty work, to not leave fingerprints behind.”
http://www.economist.com/printedition/displayStory.cfm?Story_ID=1390072

[Name removed]

71. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Bolo Boffin]

72. No claim of Dulce's omniscience here...

...just a simple question of what you believe to be the hidden truth behind all the lies. No omniscience required. Just some tentative conclusions.

And all I got was another demonstration of Dulce's conclusion-phobia.

Many questions abound, and quite a few answers.

[Abe Linkman]

73. Al-Qaeda is a myth. No such thing.

It's like saying there are people who are supposedly disinformation agents.

I read the link provided by DD, and there simply is no evidence of a terrorist organization by the name of Al-Qaeda.

For some reason, when I posted this before, it was deleted.

[Bolo Boffin]

87. Yes, well, you keep on believing that.

You and the Red Queen keep fighting the good fight.

PS: Perhaps you said something besides "There's no evidence of a terrorist organization by the name of Al Qaeda," and those other statements are why your post were deleted. Just a thought.

[Abe Linkman]

92. Yes, well, you speak for YOUR OWN posts that were deleted.

Perhaps you said something besides making another fact-free statement in support of _________.

[Bolo Boffin]

95. I'll tell you what I said

I spoke my mind about my true opinion of Dulce, and for that, someone alerted the monitors and the post was deleted.

There are too facts.

[DulceDecorum]

104. Boloboffin

the only thing
that prevents most readers here from posting THEIR opinion of you is ..........

Incidentally, are you familiar with the use of the IGNORE function?
It is that little snoozy icon on the top right of this post.
If you push it Boloboffin,
then ALL my posts will magically vanish and
you will never see anything I post ever again.
For you, a perfect world.

Lared did used it
and both he and were very happy for a while.
But then he decided that he could not live without my wit and wisdom.
http://www.songlyrics.com/song-lyrics/Muppets/Miscellaneous/The_Cat_Came_Back/207481.html

What can I say, other than

[Bolo Boffin]

112. Why Dulce must not be ignored

You do a lot of baseless insinuations and spread a lot of CT viruses here, Dulce. Someone should check this flow of disinformation and I'm up for the task. I'm sure you're quite a pleasant person with nothing but the best of motivations, but the truth is, your posts are filled with a lot of garbage.

People can use the garbage in your posts to discredit Democratic Underground. We've all heard radio talk show hosts slamming any kind of information on the Internet, and it's because of posts like yours. Democratic Underground, IMHO, needs someone to constantly demonstrate the specious nature of your information, so that the disinterested observer can see that your viewpoints are not the norm around here. Most DUers accept that Flight 77 hit the Pentagon. Most DUers understand the catastrophic chain reactions at the WTC that brought the buildings down without any controlled demolition assistance.

And since you are certainly a pleasant person with nothing but the best of motivations, I hold out hope that even you, Dulce, can see past this misguided assault on the truth about 9/11. It has nothing to do with loving Big Brother or Bush, if there's any difference. It's about respecting the evidence. Your method of denying these truths leave open no avenue to prove that ANYTHING happened, at any point in history, whatsoever. Using the DD standards for evidence, we will be adrift in a sea of cloaked malice. Fortunately, we can have a greater respect for the evidence that could not have been hidden from us.

Flight 77 hit the Pentagon. The WTC buildings collapsed because WTC 1 and 2 were struck by airplanes. Al Qaeda orchestraed these attacks.

[impe]

114. The Fireman's Tape:

Did you listen to it?


There is credible evidence to the contrary about the official story, which Dulce is exposing, he is a breath of fresh air.

[LARED]

115. I listened to it a number of times

What evidence does this tape have that is contrary to the official story?

There's nothing in it that I found to be credible evidence of something malicious.

[impe]

119. I can no longer access a copy of the internet

but from what I remember, the firefighters made it past the fire and were on the 78th floor in one of the towers. If the heat was intense enough to melt steel, I can only imagine what it would do to humans. Also, the tape referenced "pockets of fire" not the towering inferno the media would have us believe.

I don't believe those chiefs would order those men and women to their deaths if the slightest possibility existed that the laws of nature would be reversed that day....the South Tower falling first.

[LARED]

123. What melted steel?

If the heat was intense enough to melt steel,

Please clue me in where there is any credible reports that STEEL was melted. The best I can tell that is a myth.

the tape referenced "pockets of fire" not the towering inferno the media would have us believe.

Each floor was over 40,000 square ft. In an area that large that is full of offices, is it really surprising there were pockets of fire rather than a 40,000 sqft towering inferno? Also what media source indicated it was a towering inferno? Or do people just interpret things differently at times.

I don't believe those chiefs would order those men and women to their deaths if the slightest possibility existed that the laws of nature would be reversed that day....the South Tower falling first.

Please expand on how the laws of nature were being reversed that day. Hopefully it is not the same old rehashed silliness.

[DulceDecorum]

125. Radio talk show hosts

are using stuff from DULCEDECORUM to discredit themselves!!!!

Man,
I did not know that oxycontin was THAT strong.
Poor Rush,
that pain in the rear
http://www.snopes.com/military/limbaugh.htm
must really be immense
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0440508649/104-5356070-1907905?v=glance
if it has brought him to THAT!!!!
http://www.nydailynews.com/10-02-2003/front/story/122839p-110349c.html
Anyway, with a bit of luck, he will be getting a lot of massage in that area once he drops his inhibitions -- and the soap.

Boloboffin said:
"We've all heard radio talk show hosts slamming any kind of information on the Internet, and it's because of posts like yours."

o mushless-one,
that is the single nicest thing you have ever said to me.
Now I feel just like a french hen.
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2003/03/14/entertainment/main544077.shtml

Or a Dixie Chick.
http://www.cnn.com/2003/SHOWBIZ/Music/04/24/dixie.chicks/
http://www.cnn.com/2003/SHOWBIZ/Music/03/14/dixie.chicks.reut/
http://slate.msn.com/id/2082054/

Well, the good news -- if there can be any
good news this week -- is that not only have
neither I nor others been silenced, we have
been joined by millions of Americans who think
the same way we do. Don't let the false patriots
intimidate you by setting the agenda or the
terms of the debate.
http://www.globalaware.org/noticeboard/mm_dixie.html

[Goldust]

42. Uh...

Doya think that might have had something to do with the fact that at the time she made the call, no on in American knew what was going on. I live in D.C. and people didn't begin to call home until after the Pentagon attack, when we knew something bad was happening.

Jesus, sometimes reading this site is like taking a walk through a psych ward. No wonder Repukes love quoting this site.

[Abe Linkman]

43. Sorry, you seem to be "new" around here

I was being sarcastic, goldust. Ask your twin about that.

Is there any part of the Official Version Conspiracy Theory that you don't believe? If so, what is it?

[reorg]

52. before joining what you call the "psych ward" ... did you bother

to read the introducing message to this thread?

Guy says he heard Daschle on NPR claiming "after the towers were struck, cell phone service in DC was out" (not: after the Pentagon was struck). That is about three quarters of an hour before the Pentagon was struck, if I remember correctly.

Are you saying Daschle is lying?

[Goldust]

57. Possibly.

What Daschle said isn't true, but I doubt it was intentional on his part. Service was never "out," but the network was very busy. I live in DC and worked just two blocks from the Capitol on 9-11. Cell service was just fine until the news figured out what was going on and people flooded the phone network.

[DulceDecorum]

69. Then that means

that the Pentagon is even more incompetent than we first supposed.

We thought that they were watching the events in New York unfold on CNN like everyone else and we supposed that they, or their families, might have felt the need to each other on personal or national business.

According to you, Goldust,
we thought wrong.

[impe]

75. Even More So.....

You would think the Pentagon would have been on lock-down mode after the towers were hit, I was told the security terminals were turned off that morning.

Two weeks ago, a private plane violated the airspace around the white house, immediately 2 F-16's were dispatched from Andrews. When the golfer's streamjet criss-crossed the country, it had a full military escort until it crashed. 4 Highjacked planes were allowed to tour the NE, because our military couldn't react in time, waloc.

[Abe Linkman]

76. What are you talking about?

"the security terminals were turned off that morning."

[impe]

81. I work

in Northern VA, a contractor for my agency was at the Pentagram that morning. He said he thought something was odd that morning because the security terminals were turned off or not working. I assumed that he meant the security card terminals. I've never been inside the Pentagram. Also, this contractor said he "saw a plane".

[DulceDecorum]

83. That explains how these got into there:

All the cremated remains buried Thursday were determined to have come from victims, BECAUSE THEY DID NOT HAVE A GENETIC TRAIT SHARED BY THE TERRORISTS, said Chris Kelly, spokesman for the Armed Forces Institute of Pathology.
Some of the remains buried could not be linked to an individual victim. Others were identified after a victim had been buried, and were included in the shared grave at the family's request.
The hijackers' remains were turned over to the FBI in February. Any other remains, such as ash, that could not be partially identified as victims were disposed of by the mortuary at Dover Air Force Base in Delaware, Kelly said, to ensure that no terrorists were committed to hallowed ground.
http://www.arlingtoncemetery.net/unidentified-091202.htm

Its good to know we have isolated the terrorist gene.
However, I do not think that it is fair to waive citizenship requirements such as this one.
Especially considering that we have seen
people who were certified dead,
after their remains were identified and disposed of,
walking around shamelessly.
http://propagandamatrix.com/seven_of_the_wtc_hijackers_found_alive.html

(2) WAIVER OF ENGLISH LANGUAGE AND GOVERNMENT REQUIREMENTS- Notwithstanding section 312 of the Immigration and Nationality Act (8 U.S.C. 1423), or any similar provision of law requiring that a person demonstrate an understanding of the English language or a knowledge and understanding of the fundamentals of the history, and of the principles and form of government, of the United States in order to be naturalized, no such demonstration shall be required for the granting of posthumous citizenship under this section.
http://www.yale.edu/lawweb/avalon/sept_11/hr2897_ih.htm

So then, the question remains,
was that pizza delivered by these Unknowns,
or was it Digiorno
microwaved by moles?

And who the hell authorized the security terminals to be disabled at a time like that?

[impe]

86. Hopefully

None of that plane ash got mixed up with the surviving human DNA.

(The contractor said the security was OFF when he arrived there and this was PRE-attack time.)

p.s. definitely Diginerno's, who'd have thought it. :)

[Bolo Boffin]

89. Impe, I invite you to start a thread on your story

Please feel free to include as much information in your initial post as possible. Some questions:

1. Did the contractor know the full scope of disabled security terminals?

2. Could you confirm with your contractor that it was security CARD terminals?

3. Your contractor says he "saw a plane." What kind of plane? Where was it? What was it doing at the time he saw it?

4. Could you persuade your contractor to make a statement of his own, complete with a public identiy? This would go a long way in establishing the credibility of this information; right now, it's simply hearsay.

5. I see you're happy in cracking jokes about the mortal remains of Flight 77's passengers that day. You are aware of the National Geographic field trip (students, parents, and teachers) that died when Flight 77 crashed, aren't you? Their remains were recovered from the wreckage and identified. Could you possibly refrain from mockery of the dead while presenting your evidence? That would help belief in your stated evidence too.

[DulceDecorum]

90. Aww shucks

it is really difficult sometimes to feel sorry for some of those people.
http://www.ftmeade.army.mil/SoundOFF/archives/SO2002/Jan03/html/01-03News-Torch.htm

The hijackers are alive.
The plane was not scheduled for takeoff.
The hole was WAY to small for them all to squeeze in.
The Penta-surviors have were toasted less than George Harrison.
And the MUSH damit, Boloboffin, Where is the MUSH?

How did the boys from Dover ever ID anything
seeing as how we are told
that the site sustained temperatures of over 1,000 degrees
which apparently were STILL somehow insufficient
to do more that set the curl in the hair of Louise Kutz.

Besides which, Boloboffin,
on this site,
we do NOT mock the dead
but we do enjoy many a joke at the expense of the LIVING.

Anyone here up for some dead hijacker jokes?
What do they call the genetic trait that is shared by terrorists?
Lazarus.
(All the cremated remains buried Thursday were determined to have come from victims, BECAUSE THEY DID NOT HAVE A GENETIC TRAIT SHARED BY THE TERRORISTS, said Chris Kelly, spokesman for the Armed Forces Institute of Pathology.
http://www.arlingtoncemetery.net/unidentified-091202.htm)

Hey impe,
take comfort in the adage that nothing is official until it is officially denied.

Furthermore, security cannot have been that tight at the Pentagon on September 11, 2001.
Why, they let a whole planeful of people land right inside the building!!
Didn't even make them go round to the drive-though either.

Aww shucks.
And then we are supposed to feel sorry for them cause they all got medals for running away from the site. Ain't nobody in New York got one of them fancy see-villian metal bits for high-tailing outa there after those two earthquakes hit.
Aww shucks.
They can't take care of themselves, leave alone the rest of us.
Aww shucks.
Can't even keep their stories straight.

"The Navy has been touched in a broader way in that some of the individuals on the aircraft were in the Navy family," Chief of Naval Operations Adm. Vern Clark said Thursday. "For example, one of our petty officer's 11-year-old child was on the plane and headed for the West Coast.
http://www.newsmax.com/archives/articles/2001/9/14/162919.shtml

WASHINGTON, Sept. 4, 2002 -- His voice cracked and lips quivered as he fought back tears and tried to control his heartbroken emotions about the loss of his 11-year-old son in the Sept. 11 terrorist attack on the Pentagon.
Struggling to speak recently to more than 350 attendees at the Military Child Education Coalition conference in San Antonio, Texas, Navy Chief Petty Officer Bernard Curtis Brown thanked the coalition for endowing the 2002 Bernard Curtis Brown II Memorial Space Camp Scholarship.
http://www.defenselink.mil/news/Sep2002/n09042002_200209045.html.

A GOLF OUTING had Bernard Sr. out of the office that day. But Sinita Brown's relief quickly turned to grief when she learned it was her son's flight that hit the Pentagon. The elder Bernard, a Navy chief petty officer, told NBC News he had a serious heart-to-heart with his "happy, loving child" who was apprehensive about flying.

"To be honest," Brown told NBC, "we talked about death. And I just told him, 'Don't be afraid. … Just listen to what the people tell you, and the instructions. You'll be all right; you'll be fine.' He said, 'Daddy, I’m scared,' and I said, 'Hey, don't be scared; don't be afraid to die. Because we are all going to die someday.'"
http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=25771

"He wasn't afraid to fly. His thing was, 'Are we going first class?'" Sinita Brown said of her son, Bernard. His teacher had promised to take good care of him on the flight.
"I know she's holding him," Sinita Brown said.
http://www.sunspot.net/news/custom/attack/bal-te.attacks12sep12,0,4629225.story?coll=bal-attack-headlines

Are they talking about the SAME child?
These parents were as even less concerned about him than Bush was for the nation.

Santa wasn’t really worried about her son either. After all, his flight had taken off an hour and a half earlier. But her sense of well-being wouldn’t last. By MID-AFTERNOON, she got the news that it was Flight 77 that had been hijacked.
“I knew it was, you know, that it was his flight,” says Sinata, “that he was on that flight that hit the Pentagon.”
She told her husband over the phone.
“I got the phone call,” says Bernard Brown. “I cried all the way home. There was nothing I could do. I prayed to God, and I did more than that. We had an argument all the way home, too.”
What was he thinking? “I can’t tell you,” he says. “But it was rough on me. That’s my man, and my son. It was pretty rough on me. I couldn’t feel. Couldn’t think. Couldn’t, you know, couldn’t do anything.”
http://wtc.wildfuryx.com/the_children.htm

Papa is STILL on the golf course?
In MID-AFTERNOON?
Who was he playing, Poppy Bush?

And Momma is STILL relaxed even though
HER CHILD
was on a flight that could be holed up Cheney knows where?

Aww shucks.

[Abe Linkman]

94. Thank goodness, at least the terrusts didn't unplug any incubators

Some of these stories may not be the best, they're just as good - as those H&K cooked-up during the first Golf War.

[impe]

111. hee hee

Dulce,

That's so true!

[impe]

110. This is what I know...

The contractor was on a detail to the Pentagram and his duties included electrical wiring and office configuration/ installation. This was an on-going position from which he requested relief to come back to my Agency. I assumed he knew what he was talking about regarding security, since he was there on a daily basis over a certain period of time. He said on that particular day, he was able to just walk in, that the security terminals were down.

He said he saw the plane coming straight at the Pentagram and then saw it fly over before the hit. Actually, he doesn't know the source of the hit. This guy was still pretty shaken up about it. I did not begin any conversations with him about 9/11, he started talking about it to me while working on my office. I kept my skepticism about the official story to myself since I honestly believe that's what he thought he saw. I didn't question him about the type of plane. He did say, there was enough time from the fly-over until the hit, for the Pentagon to sound the alarms. Which they didn't.

As far as mocking the dead, that was not my intent. The official story that the heat from the fire vaporized a plane but spared DNA, deserves some barbs don't you think?

I am only after the TRUTH.

I have 2 other interesting coincidental discussions with other people that I will add. They don't shed any light on the facts, but they are interesting considering their timing.

[LARED]

113. Evidence please

The official story that the heat from the fire vaporized a plane but spared DNA,

Can you show me where the 'offical story' states that?

Thank you

[Abe Linkman]

116. It's hard to believe that the conspirators would be that blunt & casual

I agree with lared that it's unlikely anyone will find a verifiable statement issued by the Gummit OR one of their disinformation agents blunting stating that "the fire vaporized a plane but spared DNA".

It's easy to understand why someone might conclude that is what the O.Story Conspiracy Theorists WANT us to believe, but they're too smart to actually make a literal statement like the one referred to.

[LARED]

117. Enlighten me

It's easy to understand why someone might conclude that is what the O.Story Conspiracy Theorists WANT us to believe,

Why would the so called "O.Story Conspiracy Theorists" want you to beleive that?

[Abe Linkman]

118. Do you know any of them? If so,

Ask 'em. I'm sure they'll tell you.

[LARED]

120. If it is so easy to understand, why

don't you enlighten me?

[DulceDecorum]

122. It is even easier to understand

than the term "elastomeric temperatures."
If you do not understand,
then -- perhaps you need some remedial help from OudeVanDagen.

[OudeVanDagen]

129. Amazing ...

... simply amazing, how one of the most the simpliest and most basic terms .... elastomeric temperature .... has managed to escape your attention ............ I guess you cut class that day.

[Abe Linkman]

131. Did you just make up that term?

Since you won't say what it is, then you must have just plucked it out of that thin "Dutch" air in, is it Cornwall? Wherever.

[OudeVanDagen]

132. Any ...

... Vo-Tech Middle Schooler ... or real researcher for that matter .... will know what HDT is ... Heat Deflection Temperature.

I don't understand, Abe .... maybe you can explain why almost no one here trying to 'discuss' the WTC .... "trying to find truth" .... refuses to acknowledge and use simple basic terms found in the abundance of investigative reports of the event ... terms any Vo-Tech Middle or High School student probably knows ... and terms that anyone with exposure to a science course of some sort should know.

What's wrong with using elasticity or plasticity ... two basic terms describing the behavior of any structural material .... science 101? What's wrong with thermal influenced behaviors ... linear deflections ... drift? Why is melting, telescoping, imploding and other nonapplicable terms being used instead? I'm not trying to be nasty ... I'm not saying anyone's on the pipe or needs to step away from their bong .... I just don't get it ... how can intelligent people go about their search for truth with their eyes wide shut?

I've been a registered Dem for over 50 years ... never missed an election ... and believe we are the party of inclusion. While I'll read and try to understand your comments .. and will defend your right to express them .. you're still wrong.

Question: Why did the WTC collapse? Answer: Elastomeric temperatures and drift ... drift FYI is the deflection of one floor to the floor above and or below. That means no bombs, no ray guns.

If the WTC wasn't a pair of buildings that departed from standard building practices there would be no discussion of this nature.

[impe]

133. oh

i get your drift now.

[Abe Linkman]

134. You defined "drift", but still haven't ( or can't) define E. Temperature

I don't know if you bragging or complaining about your 50 years registration, but you don't gain any credibility when you duck legitimate questions. Likewise; when you obfuscate.

[OudeVanDagen]

135. Duck?

I haven't ducked any questions ... elastomeric temperature in my mind is self explanatory ... I defined drift believing there could be confusion for someone .... and apparently there's lots of them .... that may not know very basic construction engineering terms or their application. That being the case ... ET is the where a structural member transitions from a rigid state. I hope this is adequate for you.

No disrespect intended ... but in all honesty, you will be better served doing some reading on structural collapse than posting your funny ... and sometimes even appreciated ... comments. Why not do a quickie web search ... as I have already suggested .... on Kemper Arena or on the Kansas City Hyatt? Good places to start. The information you can access will shed a great deal of light on this subject ... allow you to see the protocols used by investigators ... and help you better understand the sensitivity of many structural connections. The newspapers for those areas also had excellent coverage ... check those archives.

By the way, the key study point for above is 'sensitivity of structural connections' .... where you can see how loads cause connection failure and collapse. Add moderate thermal influences ... you have your WTC.

Give it a try ....

[DulceDecorum]

3. They needed the lines free

for Barbara Olson.

[impe]

53. Touche

too funny for words. I've been reading this site for a long time and this is my first post. I don't buy the official version of 9/11 either, you're not alone.

[ScreamingMeemie]

54. Welcome to DU impe.

:hi:

[impe]

55. DU

Hi Mrs. Grumpy....thank you for the welcome. The number of active 9/11 sites keep dwindling down. I can no longer access Physics911.org or some of the other sites. This is one of the only sites I know of that still discusses topics related to that day.

[DulceDecorum]

137. PAGING drfemoe

You asked why the cell phones were out in DC.
Well, to tell the truth I do not know.
I had nothing to do with it.
But here, have a look at this:

April 22, 1998
The device is based on electronic warfare technology, and uses a technique called control channel signaling to block cellular traffic, said Ben Te-eni, general manager of Netline. "What we basically do is to prevent the handshake between the handset and the base station in a designated area," said Te-eni.
This is done by transmitting a low-power signal to the handset that prevents any effective communications with the closest base station, a communication necessary to place or receive a cell phone call, Te-eni said. C-Guard uses a dynamically controlled power output to limit the range of the signal blocking to the designated area.
http://www.techweb.com/wire/story/TWB19980422S0006

March 1, 2001
Dubbed Wolfpack by the Defense Advanced Research Projects Agency (Darpa), the tactical program aims to develop a ground-based electronic warfare system that could jam communications and radar emitters operating at frequencies ranging from 20 MHz to 2.5 GHz. At the same time, the system must be designed to avoid disrupting "friendly" military and commercial communications, Darpa said.
http://www.eetimes.com/sys/news/OEG20010301S0063

March 19, 2001
Cell phone "jamming" equipment -- which sends out radio signals that block nearby cell phones from decoding local cellular networks' signals -- is becoming increasingly available, even though it is currently illegal in the United States.
<snip>
The C-Guard comes in two models, a $900 version the size of a videocassette and a higher-powered version for $6,500. Formed by retired Israeli military intelligence officers who were inspired by technology invented by the Israeli army's electronic warfare division, Netline claims to have sold hundreds of jamming systems to U.S. customers, including the Department of Defense and the CIA.
http://www.cnn.com/2001/TECH/industry/03/19/blocking.wireless.idg/

According to Randall, " At about 10:45 AM Friday (July 6 2001), radio station WJKM and CMR (Country Music Radio), with studios in Hartsville, Tennessee was knocked off the air by a very powerful strange energy blast! There was a crystal clear blue sky, no
clouds or rain. It was not lightning"
According to WJKM, in the attack, "All the radio station's lines were knocked out.
Several power transformers were blown several blocks away from the
studios (smoke seen billowing out of one). All phone lines at the newspaper (The Hartsville Vidette), the local farm co-op and all other phones in this small radius were knocked out! Radio station transmitter lost all MOSFETS and the output - tuning network. All computers at WJKM lost motherboards, network cards etc. ISDN was knocked out. Most all the equipment Zephyr codec and EAS all knocked out."
These effects on radio transmission systems closely resemble the effects on urban radio, television, power transmission and generation facilities attacked by U.S. Air Force electronic bombing in electronic warfare missions in recent military operations worldwide, including Yugoslavia and Iraq.
http://www.ecologynews.com/cuenews31.html

Wyden's interest in such a program comes after reports surfaced
that satellite telephones, such as those operating on
Globalstar's and Iridium's networks, functioned when cellular and
other mobile communications devices were knocked out following
the Sept. 11 terrorist attacks on the World Trade Center and the
Pentagon.
"Our phones basically work virtually anywhere, whereas
terrestrial-based systems like cell phones only work within the
limited radius of cellular transmission towers," Globalstar
spokesman Mac Jeffreys told Newsbytes earlier this week. "If
something happens to those towers, that's it."
http://www.launchdate.com/_EMP1/EMP/wyden.htm

In other news:
Naval Air Station Whidbey Island is home to Electronic Attack Wing, Pacific, with 15 Prowler squadrons of four planes each and about 185 fliers and ground crew members apiece.
http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/local/144454_whidbey18.html

[drfemoe]

138. Thanks! I'll take a look .. eom

[grasswire]

141. paging impe

Could you relate the other two conversations you mention upthread? Please?