Can a MIHOPer please explain why they believe that?

[Very very sad]

I'm pretty new here, so forgive my ignorance. However, all of the stuff I've seen where people have accused * of being behind 9/11 has seen pretty stupid or not too credible to me. Can someone help me understand?

[Racenut20]

1. * was not the doer. He isn't smart enough. Just acted like he

did all his worthless life when someone else come up with an idea he served as a cheerleader because his priviledge would let him be the beneficiary.

[Very very sad]

2. So who came up with the idea?

Cheney?

[lastliberalintexas]

3. Stop saying that!

When you underestimate your opponent you've already lost the battle. Bush is NOT stupid, he just plays a dumb as dirt cowboy for the teevee.

That said, I have no idea on the MIHOP/LIHOP thing.

[ayeshahaqqiqa]

4. Visual Evidence

that something wasn't right is found in the tapes of the towers falling down, especially Tower 7, which collapsed hours after the two main towers were down. There was no fire there, no apparent reason for its fall. I watched it go down-it looked exactly like a controlled demolition. Others who have watched the main towers collapse say the same thing. Supposedly there was some funny business happening at the base of at least one of the towers as well.

The other thing that looks incredible is the video of Bush reading the story to the kids. Sorry, but this isn't what one does when one thinks his country is under attack.

NO ONE gave the order for jets to scramble to try and take out the planes-yet when Paine Stewart's plane strayed off course, fighters were on his wing within minutes.

Maybe the last two paragraphs are simply describing incompetence-but the first hints at something sinister going on.

I'm not sure if I'm in the MIHOP camp or not, but I don't think the plan was carried out by 19 hijackers and Osama on their own....

[The Doctor.]

16. Here's the footage;

http://news.globalfreepress.com/movs/wtc7.swf

[pauldp]

61. I'm new to this forum also...

Holy Sh*t.

I've been hanging out mostly in the election results and discussion forum. I'm convinced they stole the election - if they didn't then why would they fight the paper trail legislation for the e-voting machines? I've never given much creedence to 911 conspiracy theories. Then I peeked in here last week and saw links to that demolition footage of WTC7...



Jeesus Flippin' Christ. I thought I was already pretty far down the rabbit hole. I didn't know about WTC7. It's clear as day. Man o man. we are being governed by some evil f*cking bastards. God help us.



(edited to remove redundant link)

[Endangered Specie]

65. dont automatically jump to conclusions

based on one piece of evidence. THe NIST report will be out soon enough.

http://wtc.nist.gov/pubs/WTC%20Part%20IIC%20-%20WTC%207%20Collapse%20Final.pdf

[pauldp]

68. Sounds like they are not even

addressing the possibility of controlled demolition being the cause.

[Endangered Specie]

72. perhaps because there is no solid evidence of it

:shrug:
Kinda like how bioligists and biology books dont even address the possibility of creation being 'the cause' of life.

[pauldp]

73. Nope. It's just like Mitofsky's report on the exit polls.

They won't even address the scariest and most likely possibility.
They will have their version of rBr.
All the video footage as well as Silverstein's cagey comments and retractions ARE evidence - hard evidence. Clear as day. Common sense tells anyone who looks at it it was controlled demo - and they are refusing to explore it. I bet they are working up some really good obfuscating science for this one.

Although your point about evolution is a good one. Think how many people deny evolution because they prefer to believe ancient Middle Eastern Mythology as fact. I once got into a debate with a scientist who was also a fundamentalist Christian who claimed that the speed of light may have slowed down since the creation of the universe. That was his explanation for the fact that the light we see from distant stars is older than the Bible claims the universe is. It's amazing what intelligent people will come up with in an attempt to support their belief systems - or to hide the truth.

[John Q. Citizen]

32. ayeshahaqqiqa, the scrambling of any plane that is off course

and not responding to air traffic control is SOP and very common. It happens about 100 times a year on average for the last 10 or 15 years. They don't do it necessarily to shoot down the plane, but to get a visual "look see" and to try to determine what the problem is. This doesn't require an executive order but is Standard Operating Procedure.

This is done because the fly ways are very crowded and an off course non responsive plane is a major hazard for all air traffic.

On 9/11 there were four planes off course with their transponders turned off and not even one was checked out.

This is almost impossible. No plausible explanation has ever been given how this could occur.

Shooting down a plane is an entirely different matter and should not be confused with the SOP of doing a look see on off course non- responsive planes.

[ayeshahaqqiqa]

33. You said it better

that's what I meant-it was odd that no one had planes go and check out what happened.

[Al-CIAda]

34. Sentor Dayton -The non-response of NORAD and lack of defense of the Pentag

The non-response of NORAD and lack of defense of the Pentagon.
Testimony of Sentor Dayton and an interview with Dr. Bowman (Lt. Col. Ret. USAF) by Micheal Kane. He discusses the war games planned that very morning at the exact time the event occured.
Powerful 15 min....must see imho

http://innworldreport.net/video/2004-08-04/dayton.html

[lonestarnot]

51. dude that was in charge of terrorist event stuff at the FAA first day on

job did nothing by his own admission!

[me b zola]

5. Here's an idea

We have a forum called Sept. 11th, and we have another entitled PNAC. Could you please go there and read, including all of the link material. It is alot of material, but if you are interested it is all there for you.

[Very very sad]

6. Oh whoops, my bad

I didn't know about those forums. I'll check 'em out, thanks!

[me b zola]

9. You are welcome

:hi:

[Senior citizen]

11. And when you've finished looking at the evidence,

please read the history of the Reichstag fire and how it was used to consolidate Nazi power. Sure looks like history repeating to me.

[iconoclastNYC]

12. General discussion is for general discussion.

Doesn't saying anything about no 911 threads or PNAC threads that I can see?

[me b zola]

26. I wasn't suggesting that the topic shouldn't be discussed in GD

My point was that when I first came to DU I thought all of the talk about LIHOP/MIHOP was tinfoil hat stuff. Instead of asking people why they believed it, I read the threads & the links---to the point of hurting my eyes. There are mountains of info which leads to more info. Context was very important for me, I was unaware of PNAC and many of its players; the octopus has many tenticles.

It may serve one to ask the OP's question of a person whom they have a peronal relationship & hold that persons judgement in high esteem, but someone who is new to DU has a very limited way to assess the judgement of the person who tells them why they believe.

I absolutely believe that we should be able to discuss MIHOP in GD, I just believe that someone new to the topic has a lot of reading to do to be up to par on a discussion of it.

[Very very sad]

15. Could you give me a couple of links?

I can't seem to find them. :(

[Individualist]

19. Here's one

for the 9/11 forum: www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topics&forum=125

[Very very sad]

24. Thanks!

[fob]

7. You may get more mileage as a skeptical newbie if YOU post the

"stuff you've seen" that is "pretty stupid or not too credible".

Can you recite the governments version of events?


Just saying.

It's closing time for me, gotta go, but I'll check in later.

[Rick Myers]

8. Not that I completely believe MIHOP,

I do buy into LIHOP. Just TOO many unanswered questions. We may never know who is ultimately responsible, but the seeds were planted by PNAC more than a decade ago.

Cheney surely had his blood-soak hooves in it. Dubya is not nearly bright enough to have played more than a supporting role. Rummy, Perle and Wolfy were probably playa's...

Don't forget, Bin Laden was a US asset in Afghanistan, and his family did alot of 'bidness' with the BFEE.

My 2 cents, adjusted for inflation...

[The Doctor.]

14. Minor correction -

the actual PNAC hasn't been around that long. Leo Strauss's students, on the other hand, have been actors for a while.

[Rick Myers]

18. PNAC members, I should have said...

There are so MANY holes in the 9/11 story I don't know where to begin.

[bpilgrim]

10. The New Pearl Harbor

Disturbing Questions about the Bush Administration
and 9/11
Updated Edition with a New Afterword
by David Ray Griffin
Foreword by Richard Falk
http://www.interlinkbooks.com/BooksN/New_Pearl_Harbor.html

psst... pass the word ;->

peace

[FearofFutility]

39. I highly recommend this book n/t

[Name removed]

13. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[DisassemblingHisLies]

17. 9-11 made it possible for this administration to carry out PNAC goals.

Too long to go into, so if you want to learn more, google "PNAC".

This administration is in partnership with large corporations, including the media. War is big money. Oil is valuable.

Put the fear into the people & they've got compliance & free reign to conduct their dirty business. Make them believe the terrorists are everywhere. Make them believe Saddam was partly responsible for 9-11 & they've hit the jackpot: War. Money. Retaliation for "trying to kill my daddy."

And make the people believe that if they don't go along with the program, they're not supporting the troops. Hide behind the troops for protection against naysayers who get the picture.

(You've got a lot of research to do. You're far, far behind on information.)

[Very very sad]

23. Yes, I am

I'm about to skim through some of this stuff right now in fact.

[screembloodymurder]

20. Watch building #7 fall.

http://www.wtc7.net/
Ever see a demolition? Building #7 was not hit and had only minor fires. It's collapse was a near perfect example of a demolition. So who planted the explosives? After all we had the CIA in that building so security was tight. When? It takes weeks to pull off a good demo job. And why did our government lie about it? Who stood to gain? Iraq has 4 trillion in oil reserves. Who else but * had the motive, the opportunity and the expressed intent (PNAC). As he is so fond of saying, it was a trifecta.

[Very very sad]

22. What would they gain by blowing up WTC 7? nt

[bpilgrim]

28. what would be hidden, is the real question

and once you learn what was in that building you will understand

peace

[Rick Myers]

35. Exactly...

WHAT was in that building? Look that up.

[ElsewheresDaughter]

38. "what we need is another Pearl Harbor"...richard perle

Machiavelli, Ledeen and the neocons recognized a need to generate a religious zeal for promoting the state. This, he claims, is especially necessary when force is used to promote an agenda. It's been true throughout history and remains true today, each side of major conflicts invokes God's approval. Our side refers to a "crusade;" theirs to a "holy Jihad." Too often wars boil down to their god against our God. It seems this principle is more a cynical effort to gain approval from the masses, especially those most likely to be killed for the sake of the war promoters on both sides who have power, prestige and wealth at stake.

Ledeen explains why God must always be on the side of advocates of war: "Without fear of God, no state can last long, for the dread of eternal damnation keeps men in line, causes them to honor their promises, and inspires them to risk their lives for the common good." It seems dying for the common good has gained a higher moral status than eternal salvation of one's soul. Ledeen adds: "Without fear of punishment, men will not obey laws that force them to act contrary to their passions. Without fear of arms, the state cannot enforce the laws…to this end, Machiavelli wants leaders to make the state spectacular."

It's of interest to note that some large Christian denominations have joined the neoconservatives in promoting preemptive war, while completely ignoring the Christian doctrine of a Just War. The neocons sought and openly welcomed their support.

I'd like someone to glean anything from what the Founders said or placed in the Constitution that agrees with this now-professed doctrine of a "spectacular" state promoted by those who now have so much influence on our policies here at home and abroad. Ledeen argues that this religious element, this fear of God, is needed for discipline of those who may be hesitant to sacrifice their lives for the good of the "spectacular state."

He explains in eerie terms: "Dying for one's country doesn't come naturally. Modern armies, raised from the populace, must be inspired, motivated, indoctrinated. Religion is central to the military enterprise, for men are more likely to risk their lives if they believe they will be rewarded forever after for serving their country." This is an admonition that might just as well have been given by Osama bin Laden, in rallying his troops to sacrifice their lives to kill the invading infidels, as by our intellectuals at AEI, who greatly influence our foreign policy.

Neocons – anxious for the U.S. to use force to realign the boundaries and change regimes in the Middle East – clearly understand the benefit of a galvanizing and emotional event to rally the people to their cause. Without a special event, they realized the difficulty in selling their policy of preemptive war where our own military personnel would be killed. Whether it was the Lusitania, Pearl Harbor, the Gulf of Tonkin or the Maine, all served their purpose in promoting a war that was sought by our leaders.

Ledeen writes of a fortuitous event (1999): "…of course, we can always get lucky. Stunning events from outside can providentially awaken the enterprise from its growing torpor, and demonstrate the need for reversal, as the devastating Japanese attack on Pearl Harbor in 1941 so effectively aroused the U.S. from its soothing dreams of permanent neutrality."

Amazingly, Ledeen calls Pearl Harbor a "lucky" event. The Project for a New American Century, as recently as September 2000, likewise, foresaw the need for "a Pearl Harbor event" that would galvanize the American people to support their ambitious plans to ensure political and economic domination of the world, while strangling any potential "rival."

Recognizing a "need" for a Pearl Harbor event, and referring to Pearl Harbor as being "lucky" are not identical to support and knowledge of such an event, but that this sympathy for a galvanizing event, as 9-11 turned out to be, was used to promote an agenda that strict constitutionalists and devotees of the Founders of this nation find appalling, is indeed disturbing. After 9-11, Rumsfeld and others argued for an immediate attack on Iraq, even though it was not implicated in the attacks.

The fact that neo-conservatives ridicule those who firmly believe that U.S. interests and world peace would best be served by a policy of neutrality and avoiding foreign entanglements should not go unchallenged. Not to do so is to condone their grandiose plans for an American world hegemony.

[John Q. Citizen]

44. Well, The Bush Presidency was floundering up until 9/11

saved his butt, for one thing. It gave Bush an excuse to invade Iraq, to pass the horrendous "Patriot Act" and to shift control of the congress to the Repubs.

Let me approach this LIHOP thing from another perspective.

On March 30, 1981, John W. Hinckley Jr. attempted to assassinate Ronald Reagan, the president of the United States. A little reported and very interesting fact about The Hinckley family is that they are personal friends and business partners with The Bushes. Of course, the bullet came within an inch of making V.P. G H W Bush President that day.

In fact, Neil Bush and Scott Hinckley were scheduled to have dinner together on March 31, 1981, the day after the assassination attempt.

This fact was barley reported and then totally dropped from sight. No follow up was ever done by any major news outlet. No major news outlet ever did any investigative reporting into the long time relationships between the Hinckley and the Bushes.

The link is to a web sight run by the former long time Dean of the University of Montana's school of journalism. His Treasure State Review is the oldest Journalism Review periodical in the country. Check it out and look around.

http://www.nathanielblumberg.com/bush.htm

OK, so then we have Osama Bin Laudin, who's parents, again, are long time personal friends and business partners with the Bush family, and Osama was also a CIA asset.

We know what happened to these two "errant sons" of friends of the Bush family who committed the 2 major political crimes of the last 25 years in the US. John Hinckley was found to be insane and shipped off to a private mental hospital. He got no jail time and now he's getting unsupervised visits home and may be released. Osama is missing and keeps getting away, and George the younger says he doesn't really much care.

What are the odds of that? 2 sons of personal Bush friends involved with two major crimes against the US?

Think about it.....maybe a lust for power is what is in the downing of the twin towers for the Bush clan.

My belief is that Bush knew in advance about 9/11 whether he was directly involved or not. It's all over his face as he reads "My Pet Goat," as the towers burn.

[screembloodymurder]

56. Everything.

What did they have to gain by shipping all steel out of the country before it could be analyzed? Why was the Patriot Act written prior to 911? How come the war plan was on * desk prior to 911? The most illogical conspiracy theory I've seen is the official line on what happened. If you follow the * administrations logic, we should have invaded Mexico after Pearl Harbor.

[Ezlivin]

64. MIHOP

What did they have to gain by shipping all steel out of the country before it could be analyzed?

And why did they feel it necessary to add GPS tracking to every single truck?

Why was movement of steel out of the area so critical that they fired a driver for taking a 90 minute lunch break?

Why did they hire the same firm that cleaned up the OK City bombing to clean up the WTC?

Why did the firm bury the materials from the Murrah Building in a guarded location?

Why was the Patriot Act written prior to 911?

Why did Congress try to pass it after the OK City bombing and after the first WTC bombing in '93? Why did the Act stay around for so long?

How come the war plan was on * desk prior to 911?

Why did Bush repeatedly say he saw the first plane fly into the WTC AS IT HAPPENED when the footage was not released until 9/12? Why did he continue to Booker Elementary School despite being told EN ROUTE that the first WTC was hit?

As Alice said, it just gets curiouser and curiouser.

[Proud_Lefty]

21. I'm totally MIHOP

The odds of 9/11 happening according to the administration's version are astronomically slim. However, the odds of MIHOP happening according to many of the theories out there are practically one to one. When you find out about all the information the administration refuses to provide, evidence that was been confiscated or destroyed, and all the stonewalling the 9-11 commission and the victims' families, you can't help but know something's seriously wrong. Check out http://www.reopen911.org/freedvd.php for additional information.

[OmmmSweetOmmm]

25. The "official story" reads like the true conspiracy theory. n/t

[CJCRANE]

31. Indeed,

I have a few friends who seem to subscribe to the "lucky accident" theory.

When I tell them about PNAC, "the new Pearl Harbour" and the need for this to gain the political capital to wage war on Iraq my friends just say that the neocons got lucky when 9/11 just magically fell into their lap and made all their "catastrophic event" dreams come true.

[CJCRANE]

27. Yes,

it seems totally obvious to me, especially from the PNAC's goal of "shaping circumstances" and the neocon theme of "creating reality" seems to be the key of how they use events and then impose a sort of "script" onto the event.

Like with 9/11, which was done by a handful of Saudis with funding from Saudi Arabia and Pakistan. But somehow the "script" morphed this into an imminent from Iraq (which unlike Saudi Arabia & Pakistan had no links to AL-Qaeda).

[longship]

36. Innumerancy

The arguments made for MIHOP seem to be based on what we don't know instead of what we do know. This is not a good approach to finding the truth, but is a good way to fit evidence to a predetermined outcome, which I suspect is what is going on with MIHOP.

Try this example of one of the MIHOP arguments.

The other night I was playing bridge and was dealt the following hand:

A-K-Q-4-5 Spades
Q-10 Hearts
J-9-6-3 Diamonds
10-7 Clubs

How could I possibly be dealt this particular hand when the odds for this happening are 1 in 635,013,559,600? Somebody must have stacked the deck.

Of course, nobody stacked the deck. I just got dealt one of the 635,013,559,600 possible bridge hands, just like always happens when I play bridge.

Rare events happen all the time. To build a complex explanation to account for my very rare bridge hand is unnecessary, and untrue. The same is true of MIHOP.

[Proud_Lefty]

40. Have you listened to any of the theories submitted?

The official story is contradicted by logic. Add on cover-up and stonewalling and nothing is left to our imagination. We have to sort out the only evidence we could find that the Administration didn't confiscate or destroy. Even a former Bush aide recently came forward and said it couldn't have happened without full participation and involvement by our government. No one wants to believe that their own government could be capable of such a thing, so I don't push my conclusions on anyone, but when the facts are being followed closely, there isn't much doubt left.

[longship]

50. Of course

But there are so many problems with MIHOP.

If you reject the official story, you should start with the facts and see where they lead you, not take a complex theory and try to fit the facts to it.

None of the conspiracy theories I've read are believable. They make logical errors, ignore known facts that would falsify them, and make up tons of things out of whole cloth.

For instance, one MIHOP theory that says that the plane hitting one of the towers was not a 757, but a smaller plane in spite of the fact that there is no evidence for this miracle plane's existence. What's worse, is now you have to concoct another arbitrary theory to explain what happened to the 757 that we *knew* took off from Boston and we knew that never landed in California and had dozens of passengers on board who phoned their relatives and related the story of seeing the NY skyline out of the windows? Was this plane sucked up into a space ship or something? No, the towers were struck by the two flights that were documented to have struck them. There was no mystery flight requiring even more mysterious appearances and disappearances.

Controlled demolition is not necessary to explain the collapse of the towers because we know that two very large airliners crashed into them at over 400 knots and sprayed tons of jet fuel all over the place and set the papers, furniture, doors, plastic, dead people, and everything else in their path on fire. Weakened by the impact and the heat of *everything* burning upper floors collapsed on lower floors which then could not take the extra stress and the entire tower just pancaked down. There is no need for extra airplanes, controlled demolitions, or space men to understand or explain this.

I have no idea why Bldg 7 collapsed. But I suspect it might have something to do with the fact that two 110 story buildings collapsed into a 30 foot deep pile of rubble within a stone's throw away of the building.

I just cannot go along with the methods or the conclusions of these MIHOP theories. They do not pass the Baloney Test. Furthermore, there is absolutely no need to even speculate on these things since we can already document that CuckooBananas ignored several clear warnings that such an attack was imminent. There's no need for MIHOP when we can already clearly and credibly claim LIHOP.

[Proud_Lefty]

57. Okay, now I have some time to write more substance

On 9/11, Cheney had scheduled mocks drills all over the same exact areas effected. Normally, interceptors are in the air within minutes, but on 9/11, they had stand-down orders. Nobody knew what was a drill and what was real. Okay, there's a coincidence.

During the 9/11 commission hearing, an FCC employee testified that he took all the audio tapes of employees, ripped them all up and dispensed them in wastepaper baskets all over the building. Huh?

Next, reports of a blue aircraft were reported by Fox News as being the plane going into the WTC at the actual time of the incident, but was never again aired. Why?

FEMA arrived in New York on 9/10.

FEMA also arrived in Florida on 9/10.

Reports by numerous witnesses, including firemen, of hearing explosions as the WTC was coming down were aired live, but never aired again.

The owner of Building 7 is on tape giving someone the instructions to demolish the building. How were the explosives that normally take days to set up, put in Building 7 after the plane hit and they felt the building wasn't salvagible.

The FBI confiscated every video recording available by nearby gas stations, etc. and never gave them back or made them public.

How was the fire from the world trade center so intense that it melted the frame, yet many people were still running down the stairwells and escaped without burning or experiencing excessive heat exposure?

How did ALL the passports of the suicide bombers survive the fire and be found within hours?

How come some of the suicide bombers have come forward in other countries and announce they're still alive?

How come gold bars were quietly removed from the WTC early the morning of 9/11?

Why was there no plane wreckage at the Pentagon?

Why were there no body parts found at the Pentagon?

Interesting coincidence that the plane entered a section that was under construction at the Pentagon, which is not in the direct route from where it came.

How could the plane fly so low into the Pentagon that it would have had to fly a long way just above the height of automobiles?

Why were Pentagon employees out on the front lawn of the Pentagon removing pieces of debris?

What did they do with the debris?

Why were no black boxes ever found? Well, we've heard black boxes were found, but were also confiscated.

Why did Bush block an investigation?

Why did they remove and destroy all evidence from the WTC?

Okay, I'm tired, but there are so many questions, many, many more than these, and no good answers. Bush and Cheney won't answer.

I won't claim any story on how it happened. But the official story is bogus and filled with cover-ups and holes. The more questions go unanswered, the more I seriously question our government's involvement.

Do you really believe that a 7 foot man in the desert tied to a dialysis machine took his small group of men working out on monkey bars as we see in the same video, and pulled off the most sensational crime our history's ever seen? Or maybe you can answer some of these questions.

[longship]

60. Whoa! Okay. Here's my best shot at it.

On 9/11, Cheney had scheduled mocks drills all over the same exact areas effected. Normally, interceptors are in the air within minutes, but on 9/11, they had stand-down orders. Nobody knew what was a drill and what was real. Okay, there's a coincidence.

Hmmm. Looks like LIHOP.

During the 9/11 commission hearing, an FCC employee testified that he took all the audio tapes of employees, ripped them all up and dispensed them in wastepaper baskets all over the building. Huh?

I see nothing about mystery aircraft and controlled explosions here. Could be LIHOP, though.

Next, reports of a blue aircraft were reported by Fox News as being the plane going into the WTC at the actual time of the incident, but was never again aired. Why?

Thousands witnessed this event. There were multiple videos recorded of the event in real time. Only Fox has reported this. Looks like a mistake by Fox to me.

FEMA arrived in New York on 9/10.
FEMA also arrived in Florida on 9/10.

Documentation for this? Or does it mean that FEMA was having a meeting in NYC? What does FEMA say about this? There may have been another reason for this. On base, there's nothing sinister about this. But there may be something to it. File it under unknowns.

Reports by numerous witnesses, including firemen, of hearing explosions as the WTC was coming down were aired live, but never aired again.

Have you ever experienced destructive testing in an engineering lab? When things fail catastrophically they make a huge, disproportionally large noise. I would expect that the catastrophic collapse of an 110 story steel-reinforced building to be very, very noisy, with lots of huge "explosion-like" noises as the reinforced structures fail. Having heard this myself in the lab, I would be surprised if it didn't happen like that in real life.

So, move on, nothing here. It's just the way things work.

The owner of Building 7 is on tape giving someone the instructions to demolish the building. How were the explosives that normally take days to set up, put in Building 7 after the plane hit and they felt the building wasn't salvagible.

I'm not a demolition expert. Maybe somebody ought to contact one and get an informed, expert opinion about this. Better yet contact a few demolition experts and get a concensus opinion.

The FBI confiscated every video recording available by nearby gas stations, etc. and never gave them back or made them public.

There were plenty of videos made of the collapses including those from all the major news media which were recorded in real time off the broadcasts. They clearly show how the buildings collapsed and is consistent with the independent engineering studies done by the media and reported by National Geographic and other outlets. N.B., these were subject to verification since the information on construction and destruction of the towers was in the public literature.

How was the fire from the world trade center so intense that it melted the frame, yet many people were still running down the stairwells and escaped without burning or experiencing excessive heat exposure?

Sheesh! This is a really easy one. I'm surprised you didn't figure this one out. Big building. Fires didn't go everywhere but concentrated in the heavily damaged areas adjoining where the 757 penetrated. This is where the flooring joists were exposed to high enough heat for them to deform and release from their retaining clips causing the collapse.

How did ALL the passports of the suicide bombers survive the fire and be found within hours?

People don't need passports to fly within the U.S.A. You don't actually think that the hijackers took their passports on the plane they were trying to hijack, do you?

How come some of the suicide bombers have come forward in other countries and announce they're still alive?

Well, misidentified? Nothing sinister about that. That certainly doesn't mean that the hijackings didn't take place, especially since it was witnessed by many, many people, both first and second hand (the latter via cell phone).

How come gold bars were quietly removed from the WTC early the morning of 9/11?

Well, first of all, when you move gold bars, you don't announce your intent on CNN. You do it quietly, telling no more people then you have to. And just maybe this is a normal thing to happen in the world center of world commodity trading.

Why was there no plane wreckage at the Pentagon?
Why were there no body parts found at the Pentagon?

This one's easy. Just how much of a lightweight aluminum alloy airliner do you expect to find after it slams into a reinforced steel and/or concrete building at over 400 knots? (Especially with the tons of jet fuel to guarantee a huge conflagaration--aluminum has a very low melting temperature.) The damn planes disintegrated as one would expect.

Human bodies are even less sturdy than airplanes. They had to ID the dead by DNA and individual teeth, if they were lucky enough to find anything.

Interesting coincidence that the plane entered a section that was under construction at the Pentagon, which is not in the direct route from where it came.

Well, these weren't professional pilots. I can't account for the route they took. There was a one in five chance. Coincidence? Looks that way. It saved lives, so it was a lucky coincidence.

Why were no black boxes ever found? Well, we've heard black boxes were found, but were also confiscated.

Found? Not found? Make up your mind. BTW, they *always* confiscate them because they require very special handling so as to not damage the information contained within them.

Why did Bush block an investigation?

Because he needed to cover up the incompentence of his administration which let this happen.

Why did they remove and destroy all evidence from the WTC?

I don't know. That's a lot of stuff. Maybe they just needed to get it out of the way. Certainly there wasn't enough structure or organization left of the mess to be able to tell anything from it. After all this was two 110 floor buildings pancaked into 30 feet in less than a minute each. There would be nothing left of value. What would one look for? What would it tell somebody?

I won't claim any story on how it happened. But the official story is bogus and filled with cover-ups and holes. The more questions go unanswered, the more I seriously question our government's involvement.

That's good that you don't claim a story. But there are many, many people who have let people convince them otherwise. That there's controlled explosions, mystery airplanes, no airplanes, and a whole lot of other balderdash--none of it based on the facts. And they use these arguments, like there was no whole fuselage left in the Pentagon, and silly stuff like that to back up their claims, which are completely and totally bogus.

But MIHOP hurts anybody who really wants to find out the truth because it muddies the waters with meaningless bullcrap and diverts attention away from the real issue--"Why were 19 hijackers able to do what they did?" I have no doubt that the total incompetence of the * and his people let this happen. Deliberately or otherwise, it doesn't matter. Both are damning. LIHOP, or LIH are the same as far as I'm concerned.

[sam sarrha]

29. Dozens of countries were trying to get us to do something about the

eminent attacks on us... Information was coming in every day.. about attacks by hijacked aircraft to be used as missiles.. we have denied that.. Cuntdalisa Rise said no one ever thought airplanes as missiles.. but a guy hijacked a DC9 during Nixon's administration and was going to crash it into the White House.. It was a BIG event and on the news.. also a drunk crashed a Cessna within 8 feet of the white house during Clinton's administration..

the Italians had found actual plans for crashing planes into landmarks here and in Europe just months before. The Philippines also stopped a plan involving numerous planes just the year before.. etc etc etc..

I actually got home from trip and called my mother we got back OK.. I told her the security was nonexistent and they had more planes on the runway than could actually take off in a day.. which was why we were late.. I told her it was absurd considering the fact that Italy, england, Spain and the Philippines had discovered terrorists plans to hijack airplanes and crash them into buildings.. that was 2 weeks before 911.

I heard on 911 that Bu$h was OK and actually he was removed from the North East area due to increased terrorist alerts that day, but they only said that once.

Jeb Bush actually wrote and implemented an executive order involving declaring martial law in Florida in case of terrorist attack.. weeks before 911,

Chaney was at the moment of the attack in charge of conducting a military exersize involving the attack of hijacked aircraft that were to be crashed into buildings in New York that very day .

The cockpit voice tapes were destroyed right ofter the attack and no copies were made...

there are just too many things pointing to a conspiracy.. people making daily trips to the state department to insist they look at the other countries warnings were actually locked out and criticized.

aslo Asscroft denied 12 warrents on 12 of the hijsckers.. just months befor the attack that the FBI wanted for teasons of suspected terrorism

Fascists use such things to their advantage to limit civil rights and create scapegoats..

http://www.indybay.org/print.php?id=1719333

'Fascism is actually Corporatism, for the essence of Fascism is the relationship between government and corporations' Benito Mussolini

there was also a group of Israili Massad that had cammeras set up at the best vantage point to film the planes crashing into the buildings. they were arrested because that drew attention to themselves by chearng and high fiving and hugging each other in joy.. they were quietly deported... later it was said they were happy we would know what it was like.

I have no doubt it was allowed to happen.. I dont actually think that Bu$h hilmself planned it.. he is just a pathetic pawn and puppet, he is just an easly manipulated Burnt out Wet Brain Alocholic Drug addict .. whose IQ is about 90... Chaney and Rove will Martyre him as soon as he becomes a liability. which shouldnt be too long now, the way the worm is turning these days..

[annabanana]

30. When you've been here awhile I hope you

can change your name to
"very very determined" (whether or not you end up subscribing to MIHOP or LIHOP)

Welcome to DU!
:toast:

[Octafish]

37. BUSH KNEW & CHENEY PLANNED IT™

First: Welcome to DU, Very very sad. Why are you so sad? You're home among progressives and Liberals and other Democrats.

Second: Bush may not be the brains behind anything, but he is the figurehead who let 9-11 happen, at best, and kept the CIA, FBI, DIA, INS, DoS and everybody else off the Saudi's arses.

Third: Perhaps we need to evangelize a bit?

BUSH KNEW

Did you know he was warned about Osama bin Laden months before 9-11? Before the CIA briefed him at Crawford during his first month-long vacation in August 2001, he had been “forced” to sleep offshore during the G-8 summit in Genoa. The reason: bin Laden threatened to crash the party with a jet plane. This shows, at BEST, Bush's incompetence enabled 9-11. That makes him criminally derelict in his duty as commander-in-chief, an impeachable offense. What’s more likely, based on the results of his leadership in the three years since, Bush just decided to let 9-11 happen as a reason for building up the world’s first sole-superpower police state.

There is no doubt the former counter-terrorism czar Richard Clarke, National Security Advisor Sandy Berger and President Clinton personally warned the incoming administration of the dangers posed by bin Laden and Al Quaeda.

Later that summer, DCI George Tenet's hair was afire with all the warnings he was getting. How come he didn't get the info about the flight schools from CIA? Perhaps he'duh warned the airlines or even the flying public?

It's most LIKELY Bush's incompetence was the result of willfull ignorance. That requires no stretch of the imagination. Consider the following evidence, from JUNE-JULY 2001:

Plot to assassinate Bush - reports
Bin Laden: Believed to have a network of guerrillas

July 9, 2001 Posted: 9:23 AM EDT (1323 GMT)

MOSCOW, Russia -- Osama bin Laden has threatened to assassinate U.S. President George W. Bush at a G8 meeting in Italy, the head of Russia's Federal Bodyguard Service has said, according to reports.

The Associated Press said Yevgeny Murov was quoted by Itar-Tass news agency as saying: "Bin Laden is threatening the American president, but we know what international terrorism is today and therefore all the bodyguard units concerned are preparing for this.

"We view the threats as totally serious, but hope that with joint efforts we can solve all the problems."

The Group of Eight summit is meeting between July 20-22 in Genoa, Italy. Leaders from Britain, Canada, France, Germany, Italy, Japan, Russia and the United States are expected to attend the summit.

Murov -- Russian President Vladimir Putin's chief bodyguard -- did not elaborate on the threats. He said agents from Russia's Federal Bodyguard Service have travelled to Genoa to coordinate with their counterparts from the other nations taking part in the summit to investigate the threats.

CONTINUED...

http://archives.cnn.com/2001/WORLD/europe/06/20/russia.binladen/

Evidence is clear that Bush KNEW! He was warned Osama was gunning for him with hijacked airliners in summer, 2001.

Missiles to protect summit leaders
Special report: globalisation

Rory Carroll in Rome
Wednesday July 11, 2001
The Guardian

Italy has installed a missile defence system at Genoa's airport to deter airborne attacks during next week's G8 summit, fuelling hysteria about looming violence.

A land-based battery of rockets with a range of nine miles and an altitude of 5,000 feet has been positioned in the latest security measure against perceived threats from terrorists and protesters.

Unidentified planes, helicopters and balloons risk being shot down should they drift too close to the heads of state from the group of seven leading industrialised nations and Russia.

Colonel Alberto Battaglini, of the ministry of defence, said the precaution was not exces sive. "The measure, which was planned by the previous government, may seem open to criticism, but in reality it is merely to act as a deterrent against any aerial incursion during the summit.

"They are little missiles ... which only have a deterrent function to discourage any aerial-led attack and they do not present any danger to the residents of the city," he said.

CONTINUED...

http://www.guardian.co.uk/globalisation/story/0,7369,519925,00.html

Then there's John Ashcan who stopped flying commercial in July 2001.

Ashcroft Flying High

WASHINGTON, July 26, 2001

CBS News Correspondent Jim Stewart reports on Aschcroft's travel arrangements.

"There was a threat assessment and there are guidelines. He is acting under the guidelines." -- FBI spokesman

(CBS) Fishing rod in hand, Attorney General John Ashcroft left on a weekend trip to Missouri Thursday afternoon aboard a chartered government jet, reports CBS News Correspondent Jim Stewart.

In response to inquiries from CBS News over why Ashcroft was traveling exclusively by leased jet aircraft instead of commercial airlines, the Justice Department cited what it called a "threat assessment" by the FBI, and said Ashcroft has been advised to travel only by private jet for the remainder of his term.

"There was a threat assessment and there are guidelines. He is acting under the guidelines," an FBI spokesman said. Neither the FBI nor the Justice Department, however, would identify what the threat was, when it was detected or who made it.

A senior official at the CIA said he was unaware of specific threats against any Cabinet member, and Ashcroft himself, in a speech in California, seemed unsure of the nature of the threat.

CONTINUED...

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2001/07/26/national/main303601.shtml

then there’s the matter of the “warning” from a guy who didn’t think such a thing was possible. Jim Hatifield thought Bush slept offshoe at Genoa because he was chicken. Wow. Was he right, but for the wrong reasons. He paid for this story with his life. Weeks after its filing, Hatfield was a “suicide.”

Why would Osama bin Laden want to kill Dubya, his former business partner?

By James Hatfield

Editor's note: In light of last week's horrific events and the Bush administration's reaction to them, we are reprising the following from the last column Jim Hatfield wrote for Online Journal prior to his tragic death on July 18:

July 3, 2001—There may be fireworks in Genoa, Italy, this month, too.

A plot by Saudi master terrorist, Osama bin Laden, to assassinate Dubya during the July 20 economic summit of world leaders, was uncovered after dozens of suspected Islamic militants linked to bin Laden's international terror network were arrested in Frankfurt, Germany, and Milan, Italy, in April.

German intelligence services have stated that bin Laden is covertly financing neo-Nazi skinhead groups throughout Europe to launch another terrorist attack at a high-profile American target—his first since the bombing of the USS Cole in Yemen last October.

According to counter-terrorism experts quoted in Germany's largest newspaper, the attack on Dubya might be a James Bond-like aerial strike in the form of remote-controlled airplanes packed with plastic explosives.

Why would Osama bi Laden want to kill, Dubya, his former business partner?

I knew that bombshell would whip your heads around. So here's the straight scoop, folks.

In June 1977, Dubya formed his own drilling company, Arbusto Energy ("arbusto" means "bush" in Spanish), in Midland, Texas. Like his father before him, Dubya founded his oil business with the financial backing of investors, including James R. Bath, a Houston businessman whom Dubya apparently first met when they were in the same Texas Air National Guard unit. (Interestingly, both Dubya and Bath were both suspended from flying in August and September 1972, respectively, for "failure to accomplish annual medical examination.")

CONTINUED…

http://www.onlinejournal.com/Special_Reports/Hatfield-R-091901/hatfield-r-091901.html

These are TRAITORS!

[Zen Democrat]

41. Because I read the 9-11 Commission Report ....

It's as bogus and full of holes as the Warren Commission Report. I'm beginning to think that this criminal junta running our government now is a part of the same heart of darkness responsible for the hit on President Kennedy -- and Martin King and Bobby Kennedy.

[Rude Horner]

42. If you wanna dig deep

If you REALLY want to get into the whole story, a must read is "The Terror Timeline" by Paul Thompson. It's quite a comprehensive study of 9/11 and events WELL before, that lead up to it. It's an eye opener.

I also recommend, as others here have, "The New Pearl Harbor".

The PNAC document is amazing, not only because it's pretty much a blueprint of the * years so far, but because the authors of the document hold such high positions in *'s administration.

The document pretty much goes on and on about how the U.S. must become the global leader, with no possible rivals, and the way to do this is by setting up bases in the middle east and controlling that region, and making U.N. much less important (Bolton, anyone?), etc.... and how hard all these things are going to be to accomplish unless there is a "new Pearl Harbor" type event.

Makes me shudder just thinking about it.

Just think how easy it has been (Up till now) for * Bush to pretty much get his way about anything, always using the same excuse - terror. Rove, Cheney and company know that fear is the best motivator, and they have used it to their advantage for years.

[John Q. Citizen]

43. duplicate N/T

[Jacobin]

45. I doubt MIHOP

I think it was extreme negligence. I'm more inclined to LIHOP because of all the warnings with absolutely nothing at all being done in response.

I don't think people who believe in MIHOP are crazy. They may turn out to be right.

[John Q. Citizen]

48. It comes down to 6 of one, half dozen of the other, really.

MIHOP or LIHOP, either way it's high treason, 1st degree murder, and sociopathy in the extreme.

[pauldp]

62. LIHOP is MIHOP.

Letting something happen when you fully have the power and foreknowledge to stop it is causing it to happen. Using unwitting Islamic extremists to create your new Pearl Harbor is no different than hiring them to do it. In fact it's even more devious and clever.

[NAO]

46. Short article by David Ray Griffin - see material at 911truth.org

This article by David Ray Griffin is worth reading and is not too long:

http://911truth.org/docs/drgHfull.pdf

This site is the central hub for 9/11 information:

http://www.911truth.org/

[Cleita]

47. I didn't start out to believe it.

However, LIHOP became apparent to me over time. Now MIHOP looks like a good possibility considering data that is coming to light. I watch the part of Farenheit 911 where Bush is sitting in the classroom reading "My Pet Goat" with the children over and over again. The expression on his face doesn't look like a man who has been given a shocking message. It looks like a man who knows pre-planned events are unfolding. Why was he in Florida and out of harms way to begin with?

[lonestarnot]

52. Ewwww Cleita is catching on! Wooohooo!

[uppityperson]

49. TOMBSTONED OP, veryverysad

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=user_profiles&u_id=171044

[lonestarnot]

54. What is the deal wit dat? this very very sad the tombstoned spirit?

[uppityperson]

55. Here is VeryVerySad's picture, the OP of this topic, & link to profile

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=user_profiles&u_id=171044

[Very very determined]

69. I think it was over a misunderstanding

I asked a question about Scott Ritter that must have made me a Freeper and got banned for it. It's okay though, when I researched what I had said, it did sound stupid after all.

Anyway, thanks to everyone that has given me links and stuff. I'm slowly coming around to your point of view since I've had a full day to read about all of this stuff. Very very interesting.

[bobbieinok]

53. I'm LIHOP (let it happen on purpose)

points that push me there

--no planes stop the hijacked planes......very few even able to 'scramble'

--W in FL long after notified....also his reactions when told aren't what most people would do

--W and Cheney told Congress not to investigate 9-11.....when commission finally set up, people on the commission have conflicts of interest

--undamaged passport found and manuals and Arabic material found in car at one of the airports.......none of this is remotely credible

--W and Cheney testify together and no record kept

--no follow up on people like Sybil Edmonds

--James Baker the atty for Saudis sued by relatives of 9-11 victims

--immediate decision to invade Iraq with NO evidence of ties to Bin Laden and connection to9-11


and then what I've read about the ideas of Leo Strauss, the teacher of many of the PNACers in govt....he said that the people are not to be told the truth, that leaders shouldn't believe in religion but they should make very sure the people do, because they can be manipulated

and ..... 9-11 was just so convenient; it 'saved' W's presidency and probably helped him 'win' 2004 ...... such a useful source to scare the people

[CJCRANE]

63. The strangest for me

is how Bush and Cheney testified together with no record kept and yet Clinton was cross-examined on public record about...you know what.

[leesa]

58. Learn something by reading about it. There is a ton of evidence BushCo

was involved. Far more evidence than the idiotic consiracy theory put forth by the WH of 19 hijackers, 7 of whom are alive and well. Do some work and research it instead of just denying reality because you don't know anything about it.

[FreedomAngel82]

59. I have two films

Check out "Loose Change" and "9/11: Rise to Martial Law". You can download them at http://www.mininova.org

[philb]

66. Complicity of officials in 9/11 was documented by 9/11 Comm testimony

First some background on 9/11 and related events- the plan for 9/11 has been around a long time and was originally developed by U.S. officials, not al-Quada
http://www.flcv.com/911hist.html

Complicity of some of the top officials including Cheney, some military officials, etc. was documented by the 9/11 Commission Hearing testimony of many officials.
Fl 11 WTC1 http://www.flcv.com/offcom11.html
Fl 175 WTC2 http://www.flcv.com/offco175.html
Fl 77 Pentagon http://www.flcv.com/offcom77.html
Fl 93 Pennsylvania http://www.flcv.com/offcom93.html


There are also reasons based on physical evidence and the obvious with-holding of evidence and cover-up

[philb]

67. Group of military & commercial pilots unanamous that official story wrong

A group of military and commercial pilots who understand the technology and flight system unanamously concluded that the official story had too many impossibilities and could not be true.


Colonel Donn de Grand Pre (ret), was the top US arms negotiator and dealer to the Middle East under the Ford and Carter administrations.
His book, concludes that the 911 terror attacks were done by government insiders and used remote control technology.

Col. Donn de Grand-Pre organized a symposium in Portugal for a 72-hour non-stop meeting of pilots to try to assess what happened on 9/11. the group of pilots were a wonderful mix of commercial, military and civilian pilots. At any rate, after three days, the decisions were unanimous. And I wrote my 24-page report up and submitted it to the Chairman of the Joint Chiefs. After deliberating non-stop for 72-hours the group has concluded that the flight crews of the four passenger airliners involved in the September 11th tragedy had no control over the aircraft. The planes were taken control of by remote control. And they get into how the military industrial complex clearly, that is elements of it, were in control of this . This is all explained in my books.

Book 2 is "The Viper's Venom," Book 3 which just came out is "The Rattler's Revenge

Portugal News Online- Portugal's National Weekend Newspaper in English 3-08-2002
(discussion of the symposium and of his books can be found on dozens of web sites)

one of many sites is:
http://www.prisonplanet.com/022904degrand.html

[philb]

70. FAA radar shows Fl 77 could not have hit Pentagon

Download and view the Flytecomm video from http://irvingshapiro.tripod.com/cgi-bin/Flight_93/crashother.avi. You will see that Flight 77 actually did reappear to the West. If this radar track (labelled by the FAA with the Flight 77 data block) is Flight 77, then it cannot have hit the Pentagon. The timeline simply does not allow it.
http://www.the-movement.com/Radar/flight_77.htm

Apparently the Pentagon was hit by a replacement remote controlled
plane of some sort

[philb]

71. Plane that hit Pentagon wasn't shot down by anti-aircraft defenses

even though they had a long period of warning that a plane was heading towards the capital complex, or by jets protecting the capital.

D.C. capital area has anti-aircraft battery and recruit for it.

ENLISTMENT AND RE^NLISTMENT FOR UNITED STATES ARMY AIR DEFENSE
EOMMAND GUIDED MISSILE UNITS http://www.hqda.army.mil/library/mildoc/AR%20601-238,%2010%20April%201962.pdf

APPENDIX I
METROPOLITAN AND STRATEGIC DEFENSE AREAS—ARADCOM
Washington, D.C.

White House Surface to Air missiles http://avstop.com/news/CessnaSingleEngine.html

anti-aircraft missiles
http://www.ratical.org/ratville/JFK/JohnJudge/f77FoF.html