Debating 911 Iraq link with some conservatives, need help.

[danalytical]

After arguing for two days I am faced with a long list of half truths and plain old lies. I though maybe some of you might have some rebuttal information at hand so I don;t have to spend another couple hours researching for my response. This is what the right wing nut says:

<b>Fine, you don't trust the Bush Administration...how about the Clinton Administration?

What about the fact that high-ranking Clinton administration officials told the 9/11 Commission that the 1998 retaliatory strikes (after the embassy bombings) against a Sudanese pharmaceutical factory were justified because the factory was a chemical weapons hub tied to both Iraq and Osama bin Laden?

What about the Iraqi intelligence officials who met with Osama bin Laden in Afghanistan in 1998 after the embassy bombings?



What about Hussein's official press lauding Osama bin Laden as a hero after those attacks in 1998?

What about Richard Clarke (a top Clinton Administration counterterror official) asserting that Saddam Hussein offered asylum to Osama bin Laden after the embassy bombings in 1998?

What about Abu Musab Zarqawi receiving surgery in Baghdad, in 2001, after being injured in Afghanistan?

***

Can you offer me ANY explanation for these facts? Can you explain to me how these do not constitute links between Al Qaeda and Iraq under Hussein?

I'll say it again: the Bush Administration has NEVER said that Iraq had any role in the attacks on 9/11. And none of the information I mentioned above suggests that Iraq had anything to do with the attacks on 9/11, either.

BUT...Iraq had a serious connection with fundamentalist Islamic terrorists. Iraq was a safe haven for terrorists. Iraq is an important front in the war against terrorism, and it was from the moment the first airliner hit the World Trade Center; it was only a matter of time. </b>
"



I am exhausted with arguing the same points over and over again, so if anybody has any good info that I can use please respond. Thanks! BTW I have converted a few Bush lies believers over the past 2 years on the forum I am debating at. So its worth it.

[spooked911]

1. This is an interesting question--

I think that there were probably some murky links between Osama and Saddam, but the fact is, they were ideological opposites and did not set up any working relationship.

These links are not too surprising even if true, but do they really justify us invading Iraq? And did Iraq really give significant assistance to the 9/11 plot? If so, why didn't the 9/11 commission talk about it?

In my opinion, only the most die-hard right-wing nutjobs hold some secret belief that invading Iraq was really about some connection between 9/11 and Iraq. If the evidence was good for this link, why Bid bush have to lie about WMD? Why didn't he just tell the people about the connection between 9/11 and Iraq instead of denying it?

The fact is, there is more evidence that the US was complicit in 9/11 than Iraq was.

I would say, push your right-wing friends on a few 9/11 facts:
1) why hasn't Bush caught Osama and brought him to justice?
2) why did the head of the Pakistani intelligence service wire $100,000 to Mohamed Atta?
3) why don't we know who the real 9/11 hijackers were, since many of them have turned up alive?
4) what brought down WTC7?
5) why did Bush just sit in that classroom in Florida for so long when the nation was in the middle of suffering its worst terrorist attack?
and most importantly:
6) WHAT THE HELL HAPPENED TO OUR AIR DEFENSES ON 9/11? WHY WAS EVEN WASHINGTON DC LEFT DEFENSELESS?

(there's lots more of these of course-- these are just a few of the most important ones)

[petgoat]

2. questions/points

If Iraq was a safe haven for terrorists, Florida was an even safer haven
for them!

What about the Secret Service's behavior in that school? The FAA
thought as many as 11 planes might have been hijacked. Bush's
appearance at the school had been well publicized. How did they know
that no airplane was aimed right at that school? When they finally left
Florida, why did Air Force One take off without fighter escort?

[philb]

3. Don't get distracted chasing disinformation. There's a lot of such

and a lot of it is to intentionally confuse people.

what's important is that complicity of W.H., Pentagon, and military officials was documented by 9/11 Commission Hearing testimony, as well as a clearly fraudulent 9/11 Commission Report cover-up that is not supported by the testimony to the Commission, and is easily seen as incorrect and inconsistent with the known facts and evidence.

http://www.flcv.com/warnings.html
http:/www.flcv.com/offcom77.html
http://www.flcv.com/offcom93.html
http://www.flcv.com/offcom11.html
http://www.flcv.com/offco175.html
http://www.flcv.com/911hist.html

[demodewd]

4. "fuck off"

Tell them they're assholes and to fuck off.

[Kevin Fenton]

5. Some suggested replies

"What about the fact that high-ranking Clinton administration officials told the 9/11 Commission that the 1998 retaliatory strikes (after the embassy bombings) against a Sudanese pharmaceutical factory were justified because the factory was a chemical weapons hub tied to both Iraq and Osama bin Laden?"
A: They were wrong. It was 100% proved later that the factory had nothing do to with chemical weapons, OBL or Iraq.

"What about Hussein's official press lauding Osama bin Laden as a hero after those attacks in 1998?"
A: So what. A press release is hardly a smoking gun is it?

"What about the Iraqi intelligence officials who met with Osama bin Laden in Afghanistan in 1998 after the embassy bombings?"
"What about Richard Clarke (a top Clinton Administration counterterror official) asserting that Saddam Hussein offered asylum to Osama bin Laden after the embassy bombings in 1998?"
A: Yes, and Osama rejected it, because he hated Saddam's guts and would rather die in his cave in Afghanistan than do Saddam's bidding in Baghdad.

"What about Abu Musab Zarqawi receiving surgery in Baghdad, in 2001, after being injured in Afghanistan?"
A: Zarqawi was a small-time militia leader until the US enabled him to become a hero to the insurgents in Iraq. The link up between Zarqawi and OBL was after the US invaded Iraq, because of the US invasion of Iraq.

[demodewd]

6. Tell them

Tell them that a cabal of high officials in the government pulled off 9-11 and if they want to discuss the events of that day with you that you would be receptive to their responses.

[StrafingMoose]

7. About the Saddam-OBL link...

Of course Saddam Hussein's intelligence services SHOULD have had "relationship" with Al-Qaeda, OBL and ALL the terrorist organisations.

Why?

How would you mount an effective defense against terrorism if you don't have ANY relationships with said terrorists?

Saddam didn't have religious figures representing Islam in his governemental ranks, he was so the "enemy" of integrism. As you all know, it was a secular regime that want to the extent of torturing/expelling religous leaders.

Back in the Cold War, you could possibly find alot of CIA agents inside Communist parties/countries/power apparatuses, does that mean the USA _endorsed_ (as they accused Iraq pre-2003 of endorsing terrorism) Communism?

[Dancing_Dave]

8. IN AN AUTHENTIC DEMOCRACY, PEOPLE ARE INNOCENT UNTIL PROVEN GUILTY!

We've been debating what really happened to WTC buildings 1,2, and 7 and the Pentagon on 9/11/2001 for some time now. Where in any of this is the proof that the former Iraqi Government had anything to do with the fate of any of these buildings?

[Christophera]

9. Philosophy Of Principles & History Show Americans On Side Of Justice.....

Justice implies truth.

Go under the points you've brought up in your post.

The US supported the Taliban against Russia, relationships were created. We have black ops financing going on from the drug/guns trade, since Iran/Contra we've seen this. Heroin from Vietnam was an underlying motive for that war.

Get comprehensive:
We made Saddam & the Taliban into the powers they were, whether it be from direct support or indirect through corporate petroleum ties that enriched Muslim people, a few bearing old grudges and hate towards Christianity. What about the savings and loan rip off in the late 1980's? Later it was found that a major recipient of that money was BCCI. Later yet it was discovered that a bank created by BCCI was guaranteeing payment for components to Saddam "big gun" being built in US machinery manufacturing plants. The bush family does buisness with the principles of BCCI, Silverado was a branch.

Oh,..................most don't know about all that, or relate it to all the info media shares and what discussion is in essence. I think it was 3 months after OJ simpson that congress bean hearings on BCCI.

Everyone knows about OJ right? omg!!!!!

And the CIA met with OBL in a German hospital for kidney treatment months before 9-11, many know that too.

Better to get them discussing the principles of the republic and how those relate to humanity. Ask them if they ever heard of Hammerabi's code and if they think it had a purpose.