Confiscated Pentagon videos-- FOIA result

[spooked911]

I see that Bronco at www.flight77.info has gotten an answer to his FOIA request to see the videos of flight 77 hitting the Pentagon that the FBI confiscated.

The government denied the request.

Why?

Because it might sway the jury in the sentencing phase of Zacarias Moussaoui's conviction.

What a sick joke.

Although, if you think about it this makes no sense. The government wants to KILL Zacarias Moussaoui. How would this footage interfere with that? UNLESS... no, it couldn't be could it?

Could it be the footage actually doesn't show a plane hitting the Pentagon?

That might sway the jurors a little, I think, in a way the government doesn't want.

[Kevin Fenton]

1. Actually

The defence would claim that the jurors had to be biased and ZM couldn't get a fair trial, so he should go free. What else can the defence do? He's hardly innocent, is he?

Does this mean they admit they have it? Given that stills from it have theoretically been released already, what difference will the video make? My guess is the stills are glaringly different.

[funflower]

2. Given that everyone on the planet has watched two passenger jets hit

two skyscrapers full of people and seen a good number of those people jump to their deaths from 100 stories up, I doubt the Pentagon film would have a significant effect on the jury pool. Further, I hardly think the government has taken pains to avoiding biasing potential jurors against Mr. Moussaoui, so the defense will probably still make this argument. However, I suppose this is a plausible, temporary excuse.

I'm thinking that with the Pentagon, central DC and National Airport all in such close proximity, there must miles and miles of video of Flight 77 out there.

Are there stills that have been released? I haven't seen any stills of the the plane coming in to the Pentagon, only of the destruction there afterward.

[rman]

3. If the footage shows a plane did not hit the Pentagon

Then anyone who sees it will probably start doubting what exactly took place in NY. There'd be no question about the planes and the victims, but there might be questions about exactly how the planes ended up where they did, and who was involved.

However if it does show a plane did in fact crash into the pentagon, then it would remove any questions about the official story (at least regarding the pentagon).

There were several cameras that recorded whatever did hit the Pentagon and/or the explosion. These have been confiscated by the government.
The only footage of the explosion in the public domain that shows the impact (if that's what it shows), are five video frames from the pentagon security cam, which appear to be manipulated.

[funflower]

4. Any idea where I can see those five video frames?

[spooked911]

6. Here's one place:

http://thewebfairy.com/killtown/flight77/video.html

[funflower]

9. Thanks. Gee. Now I'm certain there as a fire at the Pentagon on 9/11.

[rman]

21. Those have been cropped to omit the onscreen date and clock

The clock shows beyond any doubt that the frames have been manipulated, since it skips a whole second, going from :19 to :21. Also it shows the wrong date (9-12) and the wrong time (around 5 o'clock afternoon).

Here's a better link:
CNN archive
http://archives.cnn.com/2002/US/03/07/gen.pentagon.pictures/index.html

Besides, the question is not whether or not there was a fire at the Pantagon, nor whether or not there was an explosion. The question is what caused the explosion.

[philb]

20. Most analysts concluded the Pentagon videos were fraudulent

Pentagon Videos Obvious Fakes to Cause Confusion,
but fire color(white & red) not consistent with gasoline fire

http://911research.wtc7.net/pentagon/analysis/videoframes.html

[philb]

28. A firefighter at Pentagon said the trailer outside produced most of smoke

(A fireflighter implied that aviation fuel wasn't the sole source of the trailer fire but SOMETHING THAT ONLY FOAM WOULD EXTINGUISH..)

Firefighter Russell Dodge said. "There were two vehicles burning, along with a construction trailer - we didn't know at the time, but that trailer was the main producer of smoke on the outside of the building - and the foam truck. "Once I had pretty much knocked down, then I went into the area of the first floor where all the fire was, and just trying to get on that," he said. "It was something to fight with, until we got the other foam trucks there." He said the foam units got there and concentrated on the area of the construction trailer, which was producing some severe fires and subsequent mini explosions due to highly flammable chemicals in it, then on the actual point of impact from the hijacked aircraft.

http://www.mdw.army.mil/news/Belvoir_firefighter_among_first_responders.html

Is this what caused the loud explosion heard by many?

[spooked911]

7. Exactly. The government's claim is a joke.

Everyone has already seen the horrors of 9/11 broadcast on national TV. I don't see how releasing this video to ONE GUY is gonna make a difference to ZM's trial. Even if the gov'ment released the footage, is CNN and the NYTimes going to pick it up and start broadcasting it when they have studiously avoided talking about details of 9/11 in the past three years?

[philb]

25. What file are the tapes in? Pentagon crash or Moussaouri file?

The most relevant and obvious is that they should be in the Pentagon Crash file, not obvious they are relevant to the trial.


"... information regarding the closed circuit television (cctv) obtained from Nexcomm/Citgo gas station, and the Virginia Department of Transportation is located in an investigative file which is exempt from disclosure ..."
http://www.pagenews.info/foipa/foipa_03242005_reply.php

Is a trial even planned? Why have they waited 4 years?

[StrafingMoose]

14. Yes, 5 stills released

But not showing a plane at all. Just a blury white thing upper right corner that didn't confirm or deny any story explicitly.

[funflower]

18. According to the web fairy site, it is unclear where those pics came from.

Apparently, the FBI and DOD have denied releasing them. Did they leak them thinking they would quell suspicion?

[StrafingMoose]

22. FOX got them online...

In 2002, afterwards 'officials' confirmed them as being real.

From the AP article March 07 2002

"The photographs were not officially released by the Pentagon, but officials said the images were authentic and had been provided to law enforcement officials investigating the attack. The photographs were obtained Thursday by The Associated Press and other news organizations."

From the 9-11 Commission ( http://www.9-11commission.gov/archive/hearing2/9-11Commission_Hearing_2003-05-23.htm ):

"Now, the only thing that I would point out on this chart is this says 9:43, American Airlines 77 impacts the Pentagon. The timeline on the impact of the Pentagon was changed to 9:37 -- 9:43 is the time that was reported that day, it was the time we used. And it took about two weeks to discover in the parking lot of the Pentagon this entry camera for the parking lot, which happened to be oriented towards the Pentagon at the time of impact, and the recorded time is 9:37."


Now of course, the stills released are dated Sept 12 2001 17:37 so maybe we're talking about two different cameras here.

[DoYouEverWonder]

48. I remember when that video ran for the first time

it was released to the Network News Agencies, supposedly by the DOD. Not they are claiming they don't know where it came from? Give me a break.

[philb]

27. What was loud explosion many heard 15 minutes after Pentagon crash?

Other witnesses said the plane crash was followed by an explosion about 15 minutes later that could be heard miles away - apparently the sound of a large portion of the Pentagon collapsing.

http://www.americanmemorials.com/memorial/tribute.
asp?idMemorial=1316&idContributor=7466



Other witnesses put the collapse more than 15 minutes later?
So what was the loud explosion many heard?

And what caused the Pentagon collapse? The section where the collapse occurred doesn't show much fire damage.

[sofa king]

43. That was the jets scrambled from Langley AFB

They reached DC at 9:49.

http://911research.wtc7.net/planes/analysis/norad/

The page above makes this spurious calculation for the speed of the jets:

130 miles/(9:49 - 9:30) = 410.5 mph

But that's horseshit. It almost certainly counts the time from the scramble order to arrival at the scene. However, from the time of the scramble order it can take six minutes or more just to get off the ground. If you postulate thirteen minutes in the air instead of nineteen, you get:

(130 miles * 60 min/hr) /13min = 600 mph

Which is much closer to supersonic, still averaged over the entire flight. Add in taking off and climing to altitude, and possibly having to circle the airfield to form up or get instructions, and it seems likely that the reported "explosion" is the supersonic boom created by the planes arriving over the area.

That would also explain why everyone in town heard it, and why it was so widely reported. Sonic shadows would have prevented the actual ground-level crash from being heard except nearby.

My friend, who was stopped in traffic on I-395, watched the plane clip the light post just a few hundred yards ahead of him, which put him well within a mile of the crash site. He and his carpoolers couldn't hear the explosion inside the car.

But my coworker who happened to be at the Capitol at the time was evacuated and was blocked by the Capitol from the Pentagon, which is several miles away and across the river. She and everyone else there heard the jets arrive.

[MrSammo1]

35. Mr. Moussaoui

Is just another of the many 911 red herrings that take the focus off the real neocon terrorists.

[StrafingMoose]

13. IMO, the Moussaoui trial is void...

since FBI aborteds the investigation prior to 9/11 if I remember correctly.

[Klimmer]

5. They don't want to release these videos/images because . . .

the videos will show flight 77 did not hit the Pentagon, but something smaller like a fighter jet and/or missile hit it---a bomb/missile with Depleted Uranium.

"Widespread dissemination of this record could present significant harm to the government's criminal case."

No doubt. It would blow the entire lie wide-open, and if they aren't telling the truth with Flight 77 hitting the Pentagon, then the whole 9-11 event is a masterful charade. But even then, many mistakes were made that they couldn't have planned for, facts that don't fit the official story, and many eye-witnesses that know much different. We are onto them, and they are worried.

[StrafingMoose]

15. Fixed..

"Widespread dissemination of this record could present significant harm to the government's criminal case."

"Widespread dissemination of this record could present significant harm to the government."

Fixed :evilgrin:

[Ezlivin]

8. So after the "sentencing phase" they'll release all the videos?

Wait a second while I hold my breath...

[spooked911]

10. take a good deep one!

:)

[Bolo Boffin]

11. I'll have to admit

That's a pretty BS reason for not releasing the tapes.

[philb]

23. Can anyone think of any possible relevance of the tapes to the Mousaouri

trial?

What possible basis for relevance did the judge find?

Was this a "special" judge picked to give a predetermined answer he
was told to give?


When is the trial supposed to be. It sounds like it might not happen because the Administration apparently refuses to make any evidence public.
So who are they trying to protect? Atta? Moussaouri?

[bronco2121]

40. the judge

the judge has yet to really chime in. he's a "liberal" judge, in my opinion - he's the same guy who gave john hinckley day passes home, and he caught a lot of conservative flak over it. people called him an 'activist judge'.

they say the moussaouri trial will happen late this year.

B!

[DemInDistress]

45. the moussouai trial is over...where you been he pled guilty

last year..its time for death sentence consideration, jury hears that thursday

[DoYouEverWonder]

49. No 'liberal' judge gave Hinkley day passes for home visits

The judge has to be a friend of the Bush's or a supporter, since the Hinkley family are the ones who pushed for the decision and they just happen to be friends with the Bush family.

Maybe you should spend more time on 'liberal' sites like DU, so you can up to speed on the truth?

[Old and In the Way]

12. So after he's convicted, what will the excuse be?

I wonder when the fire will occur that, unfortunately, destroys all the impounded tapes that show 77 hitting the Pentagon?

No logic here....they've already released the security cam video, albeit not particularly indicative of anything that could be construed as evidence. Wouldn't that have also tainted Moussaoui's rial?

[StrafingMoose]

16. No, when Moussaoui's convicted...

They might wave this bat instead to divert attention:

http://www.wnd.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=45539

[funflower]

17. God, I hate to think what "waving this bat" could involve.

If these people did have some level of complicity w/ 9/11, I think they will stop at nothing. Maybe it's time for a long trip abroad....
:scared:

[philb]

19. So Moussaaoui is more important than 9/11 apparently, silly excuse

Who was responsible for the decision and what was their background?

[philb]

24. Is this for real?? Documents denied to protect bin Laden's rights?

Attorney Gersten has found that "Judicial Watch, the public interest group that fights government corruption, announced today that it has obtained documents through the Freedom of Information Act ('FOIA') in which the Federal Bureau of Investigation ('FBI')

has invoked privacy right protections on behalf of al Qaeda terror leader Osama bin Laden."

http://www.judicialwatch.org/printer_5286.shtml

Were they protecting Osama's rights or those of his family?

[janedoe]

31. He needs to protect his friends...

-- well, and ultimately himself. Why has the investigation of the put options ended at the White House, protected under "executive privilege," or "national security?"

Perhaps it's a variation on the fifth amendment, where here, no evidence is allowed to be released that incriminates particular people?

[philb]

26. Gas station videos weren't the only pictures of what hit Pentagon

that were confiscated, or of FOIA to obtain the Pictures again denied:


CNN reporter, Jamie McIntyre reported the collapse occurred 45 minutes after the impact. First reporter on the scene, McIntyre had his videos, photos confiscated and a FOIA action failed to return them.

[OmmmSweetOmmm]

32. Weren't videos from a nearby hotel confiscated too? n/t

[philb]

36. from the Sheraton hotel

FBI got there quick and took the videos even though they were a mile away. How could they know to do that so quick?

[OmmmSweetOmmm]

37. Ain't it amazing how fast they can work when the want to? Didn't

they also descend upon Florida the day after and found out all they wanted to let us know about Atta and fellow hijackers?

[philb]

29. Was this precision or another coincidence?

"Where the plane came in was really at the CONSTRUCTION ENTRANCE," says Jack Singleton, president of Singleton Electric Co. Inc., Gaithersburg MD, the Wedge One electrical subcontractor.

http://www.designbuildmag.com/oct2001/pentagon1001.asp

Nicholas Holland, an engineer with AMEC Construction Management of Bethesda, Md., had spent the last two years working to reinforce the walls. Two summers ago, a blast wall of reinforced steel and concrete was installed right where the plane hit.
http://www.detnews.com/2001/nation/0109/11/nation-291261.htm


Did the plane blow up and disintegrate before hitting the Pentagon?

Vin Narayanan: The hijacked jet slammed into the Pentagon at a ferocious speed. But the Pentagon's wall held up like a champ. It barely budged as the nose of the plane curled upwards and crumpled before exploding into a massive fireball.

http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/2001/09/17/first-person.htm

Tim Timmerman, Pilot: "I saw it hit right in front of -- it didn't appear to crash into the building; most of the energy was dissipated in hitting the ground, but I saw the nose break up, I saw the wings fly forward, and then the conflagration engulfed everything in flames. ...like I said, it was right before impact, and I saw the airplane just disintegrate and blow up into a huge ball of flames. And the building shook, and it was quite a tremendous explosion. I saw the area; the building didn't look very damaged initially,

http://www.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0109/11/bn.32.html

[spooked911]

33. sounds like explosives to me-- particularly the last one.

[philb]

30. Are these all the plane that hit Pentagon & the same plane following it?

Was the plane following it in Virginia the same as the one seen at the Pentagon(C-130) ? If so, that doesn't match the official story.

Meseidy Rodriguez confirms "it was a mid size plane". His brother inlaw also saw a jetliner flying low over the tree tops near Seminary Rd. in Springfield, VA. and soon afterwards a military plane was seen flying right behind it.

http://mfile.akamai.com/920/rm/thepost.download.
akamai.com/920/nation/091101-5s.ram

3) Kelly Knowles says that seconds after seeing Flight 77 pass, she sees a "second plane that seemed to be chasing the first over at a slightly different angle."

http://www.cooperativeresearch.org/timeline/2001/dailypress091501.html

4) Keith Wheelhouse says the second plane was a C-130, two others aren't certain. Wheelhouse "believes it flew directly above the American Airlines jet, as if to prevent two planes from appearing on radar while at the same time guiding the jet toward the Pentagon." As Flight 77 descends toward the Pentagon, the second plane veers off west.

http://www.cooperativeresearch.org/timeline/2001/dailypress091401.html

5) USA Today reporter Vin Narayanan, who saw the Pentagon explosion, says, "I hopped out of my car after the jet exploded, nearly oblivious to a second jet hovering in the skies."

http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/2001/09/17/first-person.htm

6) USA Today Editor Joel Sucherman sees a second plane. . Within a minute another plane started veering up and to the side. At that point it wasn't clear if that plane was trying to manouver out of the air space or if that plane
was coming round for another hit. (Audio)

http://play.rbn.com/?url=usat/usat/g2demand/010911sucherman.ra&v

7) An unnamed worker at Arlington national cemetery "said a mysterious second plane was circling the area when the first one attacked the Pentagon."

http://www.s-t.com/daily/12-01/12-20-01/a02wn018.htm

[philb]

38. Where is Springfield, Va.? How close to Pentagon?

close enough for the plane following the plane headed for the Pentagon to be the same C-130 following it in at Pentagon?

This doesn't seem to fit the official story at all. Supposedly the C-130 had just taken off as Flight 77 was almost to the Pentagon.

Were interceptors following the plane?

And what was the big Bell Helicopter at Pentagon doing?
Did the story cover that?

[MrSammo1]

34. Could it be the footage actually doesn't show a plane hitting the Pentagon

Without a doubt!

[bronco2121]

39. bling bling

yup! the images of flight 77 are going to be used in a sort of grotesque honor. they're going to try to shock the jury into delivering a death sentence. what could be more darkly poetic?

anyhoot - it aint over yet. we're still going to make our case to obtain this CD ROM. we also have CNN's jamie mcintyre interested in the story - now that the DOJ saw fit to try and discredit his story on the subject. so we'll see what's next.

cheers!
bronco

[Bushknew]

41. I applaud your efforts ...

I've been wanting to see that video (not stills) for years .

[DoYouEverWonder]

50. So the same week they released the 911 tapes

from the WTC, is the same week they claim they can't release video images of the Pentagon because they have to protect the defendents rights. Well, seems they blew it by releasing the audio tapes, which emotionally at least, are a lot more damaging to Moussaoui's case.

[chat_noir]

42. anything new or to be added since the last post in August?

:dem:

[Bushknew]

44. So what is the excuse now?

Where are the tapes?

[DemInDistress]

46. in those 5 stills released look down the roof line of the pentagon

before the HIT you can see the building was already damaged. look closely, follow the roof line down past the center. Tell me what you see? does it look collapsed and then in the second frame/still the fireball.
am I seeing things?
any input will sooth my mind.

[MrSammo1]

47. Of course it's already collapsed!

the five framed fantasy was done the next day!

Besides, none of this matters anyway. You can't fly a passenger jet three feet off the ground at high speeds.

Did you see this screw up yet?

They forgot to blow the tree up!

http://911busters.com/SanFran04/video/IQ1_08_MARK_TAYLOR_34.34_.asx

Must have been before the fake fireball!

[911karma]

51. Why Don't They Even Try to Lie Intelligently ??? Because...

It's almost like the government is sneering at us, and saying "we know you are on to us, and we don't care, because the mass of Americans will never get over the emotional firewall we have cleverly constructed around 9/11, so we won't even bother to give a reason that might pass the laugh test".

And the 2nd tragedy of 911 is that this "wall" may in fact be insurmountable. Everything we say on this forum appeals to REASON and the LAWS OF PHYSICS and RATIONAL ANALYSIS, but this train always stops dead in it's tracks when it comes to the "crossing" that separates logic from EMOTION.

How do we change this paradigm ?

[LARED]

52. How you considered this paradigm

seems to be stalled is because the paradigm is foundation-less?

[Generarth]

53. Can Moussaoui's defense call on these videos?

And if they can, why arn't they?

[Bushknew]

55. Excellent question!!!

I don’t know if they can even ask for it but supposedly they were saving it for this trial.

[savemefromdumbya]

54. they may see the truck and trailer that carried the 1st bomb?

[Peter Frank]

56. Total BS...

If a commercial airliner hit the Pentagon -- the gov would have used every tape to prove it happened. The confiscated footage would have been plastered all over the media to prove the case for retaliation.

The American public (belatedly) got to see a few stills of a fiery hole (that went through 3 reinforced Pentagon walls) and a missing plane (inside & outside the building).

Anyone remember the video of the luggage strewn over Lockerby?