Claim on another list that Todd Beamer died in 1997

[philb]

Is this another case of similar names or etc?
***************
The 9/11 Commission Report and voice recordings left by passengers and crew members of
United flight 93 included the famous "Let's roll" call to action from passenger Todd Beamer.

There is only one problem: Todd Beamer was not alive on 9/11/01. And had not been at all during the 21st century.

Do a Social Security Death Index search for Todd Beamer at :

http://ssdi.genealogy.rootsweb.com/

You get one record with the date of birth as SEPTEMBER ELEVENTH, 1968 and date of death as 6/10/97.

Of the passengers and crew of Flight 11, 77, 175 & 93,
only 22%, 22%, 28%, 13% respectively are in the Social Security Death Index.

Todd Beamer's marriage:
I prepared for our wedding on May 14,1994. I had always wanted to move back East,
... Our wedding took place at the First Baptist Church in Peekskill, New York
pg 97 "Let's Roll" by Lisa Beamer

Do a marriage license search at:

http://www.genlookups.com/ny_marriages/

There are no marriage license records for Todd Beamer and Lisa Brosious!

Look at the date this website was setup- 9/12/01!!!
and he is not in the SSDI nor has any "family" member
applied to the September 11th Compensation Fund of 2001

Domain ID:D77223487-LROR

Domain Name:MARKBINGHAM.ORG

Created On:12-Sep-2001 17:06:44 UTC

http://markbingham.org/

http://www.whois.net/

http://911digitalarchive.org/objects/3.pdf

http://ssdi.genealogy.rootsweb.com/

[Name removed]

1. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[OmmmSweetOmmm]

2. I live in and was married in NY. My name doesn't show up, nor does

my brother and sister-in-laws, nor my ex-husbands parents marriage and his father's second marriage. Let alone both of his half-brothers marriages show-up.

My parents marriage doesn't appear, nor do my brother's or my sister's.

What I am saying is that search engine is definitely not accurate.

http://www.genlookups.com/ny_marriages /

[petgoat]

3. Ommm, maybe you could check at Peekskill to see if you can find a

record of Todd Beamer and Lisa's marriage?

[OmmmSweetOmmm]

5. I was thinking the same exact thing! Yesterday I tried to see if archives

for the local paper online go back that far and don't. I have to take a visit to the library. I'm very busy here and will do it when I can find the time. There should be a wedding announcement. I live in the town right next to Peekskill. ;)

BTW..the church does exist.

[MercutioATC]

4. Boy, is Oracle Corp. going to be pissed!

They sent him checks through 2001!

I'd imagine the town of Cranbury, N.J. (where Todd Beamer lived) and the USPS will also be a little peeved...they named a post office after him.

[philb]

6. Cranbury folks should know him I would think, so would Oracle.

A real registration system such as in some European countries, would clear up such problems. But there are other liabilities I guess.
Depends on who you trust.

[Ferry Fey]

7. Todd Beamer's classmates hard to find

http://www.genlookups.com/ny_marriages / is a genealogical database. I tried the surname of my NY relatives who have been getting married there for a couple of centuries, but it only brought up a few names from the mid-19th century.

Ommm, you might want to stop by the church to see the records they have. I don't know if the town clerk would have marriage records, but the county clerk would. Don't know if you can get a citation without buying a copy, though.

Note that the SSDI 1997 death is for a Todd E. Beamer, and the Flight 93 Todd Beamer's name is given as Todd Morgan Beamer.

"He was a very popular individual just because he was a sweet guy," said TJ Bean, who is said to have graduated Wheaton College a year after Todd Beamer.

Since the Wheaton College Alumni Association site is open only to registered alumni, I wasn't able to find much to verify those listed as being his friends.
https://www.wheatonalumni.org/olc/pub/WHC/register/register.cgi

So I went to classmates.com. For a "very popular" guy who is just about the best known of the 911 victims, I couldn't find a single person on the classmates.com message boards that thought the tragic yet heroic death of their neighbor and classmate was worthy of discussion. I don't have Lisa Beamer's book which might have fleshed out some of the details of the school names, but hours of cross-checking what I could find on the web gave little or nothing to corroborate statements by people who said they knew him from the old days.

It is said that Todd went to high school in Los Gatos,CA for his senior year. Los Gatos High (6142 members registered at classmates.com) has an extremely active message board, with hundreds of threads. No mention of him there, or at other schools in Los Gatos.

Todd's home town was Glen Ellyn, Illinois but he is mentioned as going to school in Wheaton. I looked through every Glen Ellyn school, no mention. I looked through all the Wheaton high schools, no mention.

The biggest harvest of names of old friends came from the article "Beamer's Faith, Competitive Streak Set Scene for Flight 93 Heroism: Friends say Wheaton grad's determination made him a hero." By LaTonya Taylor posted 10/18/01 http://www.christianitytoday.com/ct/2001/142/43.0.html

Keith Franz “Wheaton College roommate” Not in classmates.com college directory or "missing" list. Other mentions of that name elsewhere: “Additionally, Keith Franz, Pastor of Youth and Families, at Hope Community Church resigned from his three-year tenure as a board member” Heroic Choices Appoints William M. Beatty CPA Chairman of the Board 12/9/2004 2:55:00 PM
http://releases.usnewswire.com/GetRelease.asp?id=40530

Coincidentally, a Keith Franz is the lawyer for Irene Golinski, whose husband, retired Army Col. Ronald Golinski, was killed in the Pentagon. http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2004/01/16/national/main593715.shtml

TJ Bean LaTonya Taylor Christianity today article says “T.J. Bean, who played pickup games with Beamer at Wheaton College”
Classmates.com says “T.J. Bean Wheaton North High School Wheaton IL 1984-1988” (no mention of Beamer found on Wheaton North message board)
Classmates.com does not list TJ Bean on Wheaton College list

David Kohlmeyer Not on classmates.com “David Kohlmeyer, a friend and teammate through grammar school and high school”
A google of “David Kohlmeyer “ “Todd Beamer” brings up only the LaTonya Taylor Christianity Today article

“Roger Burgess coached Beamer and Kohlmeyer in junior high soccer and basketball” Not on classmates.com
A google of “Roger Burgess" “Todd Beamer” brings up only the LaTonya Taylor Christianity Today article

“Steve Clum, who taught Beamer in fifth grade at Wheaton Christian Grammar School” Not on classmates.com as teacher at Wheaton Christian School. A google of “Steve Clum” “Todd Beamer” brings up only the LaTonya Taylor Christianity Today article

"He was a good teammate," said Steve Pearce, who played second base while Beamer played shortstop. "Playing ball was important, but there were other things that were important, too." Article "Open phone line carried hero's last words" September 17, 2001 BY JIM MCKINNON
http://www.suntimes.com/terror/stories/cst-nws-roll17.html

A google of “Steve Pearce” Todd Beamer” brings up only this Jim McKinnon article. Coincidentally, there is a Steve Pearce who is a Republican Congressman.He does not come up in the Wheaton College classmates.com list, or the Wheaton College classmates.com “missing” list.

Why are none of his schoolmates bringing up his tragic death on their public alumni boards? Not a single one?

[MercutioATC]

8. No idea, but that's hardly evidence that he didn't exist.

If you were going to try to verify somebody's existence, would you go to a recent employer and the town they lived in or some old college classmates' web pages?

Both Oracle and the people of Cranbury, N.J. seem convinced he existed.

[Ferry Fey]

9. Fact-checking

If I were going to verify whether someone existed, I'd check _all_ the facts given about them, and that was what I was doing. Fact-checking, and showing where I looked. There's not a single fact regarding September 11 that shouldn't stand up to a little independent verification. I welsome anyone to double check me to make sure I get my facts right.

I run into information on people on the web, and sometimes it smells funny. I've exposed a couple of people who fabricated a whole pattern of lies on the web about their supposed identity, run into some pretty strange contradictions in other stories, and have occasionally tracked down some pathetic resume' inflation.

These people named as Todd Beamer's old classmates so far don't seem to have personal web pages to check -- certainly none that they've put together mourning their old friend Todd -- and I wanted to verify that they had consistent independent existences, and that Todd's hisotry checked out.

David Kohlmeyer does come up in a Wheaton Academy search, class of '87. Melissa Beamer Wilson (one of his sisters) shows up as class of '85 there.

Steve Clum holds a 1973 Wheaton College basketball record. Looks like he might now be the principal of Wheaton Christian Grammar School.

Is this the Steve Pearce who leads the missionary team for Grace Evangelical church? Could be. Or is he the Steve Pearce who is principal of Mead Junior High in Elk Grove? Steve Pearce the instructor of Industrial Instrumentation and Control at Northwest Iowa Community College? Steve Pearce who plays bass, most notably with the former lead singer of the Average White Band? Steve Pearce with Advent Business systems? Or at least the Steve Pearce who coached baseball and basketball camps at the Edison Middle School fields in Wheaton in 2000?

Roger Burgess still runs races, has been principal in his time at the Wheaton Christian Grammar School.

Stan Ueland, also mentioned in LaTonya Taylor's article, is homecoming chair for the class of '92 (Todd was '91) at Wheaton College.

[Ferry Fey]

10. 8:02

For those synchronicity buffs who might wonder, the fact that my postings just now and last night show the same time of 8:02, AM and PM, is mere coincidence. :)

[AZCat]

11. Ahhh, a fellow chronometric synchronicity fan.

It's nice to run into someone else that appreciates such things.

[MercutioATC]

13. Yeah, but you pilots are ALL strange...

;)


:hi:

[AZCat]

17. I won't deny that...

evening! :hi:

Sorry I didn't see your message this morning, things have been a little hairy at work.

[MercutioATC]

12. Well, somebody hired him one hell of a best friend if he DIDN'T exist...

I met Doug MacMillan (Todd's best friend and former head of the Todd Beamer Foundation) when my facility presented a check and dedicated our Flight 93 Memorial. He had a LOT to say about who Todd was and why the foundation was doing what it was doing.

Lisa Beamer and Doug MacMillan have been interviewed numerous times (and established a national charity in his name). Oracle is convinced Todd worked for them. The people of Cranbury and the USPS dedicated a post office to him. I have to believe that SOMEBODY did due diligance and verified that he actually existed.

Personally, especially after meeting Doug MacMillan, I don't have any doubts.


The whole "Todd Beamer never existed/died in 1997" thing is nothing but extreme :tinfoilhat: stuff.

[Ferry Fey]

14. Multiple layers of verification are good

You say you met him, but from what I have seen so far there is nothing to independently corroborate who you are or what you are.

How long had he known Todd, and how can that be independently verified?

Thre's sometimes bad information out there, such as this which I just found: "The Heroic Choices Organization, grew out of what began as an tribute to Todd M. Beamer by his wife, Lisa, and friend, Doug Lewellyn back in 2001"
http://singleparents.about.com/b/a/201082.htm

We've seen what good buddies and old classmates can say in the case of
Victor Saracini, the pilot of United Airlines Flight 175. Those who are not up to speed on this would do well to check out what they say:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=125x34146

Here's an interesting, non-hagiographic profile of Doug MacMillian and Lisa Beamer and the Heroic Choices foundation, nee the Todd M. Beamer Foundation:

Let’s Roll Over
by Dan Knauss and Caleb Stegall
http://www.newpantagruel.com/issues/1.1/lets_roll_over.php

As Keith Olbermann put it in Salon, “Just keep mumbling, ‘If it isn’t tasteless for them, then it isn’t tasteless for me.’”

“‘Let’s roll,’” as Lisa Beamer/Ken Abraham explains in Let’s Roll “is not a slogan, a book or a song; it’s a lifestyle.”

I wonder if you can still pick up a Limited Edition Handmade Let's Roll Putter?
http://64.233.161.104/search?q=cache:w0rrShQKU-UJ:www.louisvillegolf.com/library_articles.shtml%3Farticle%3DNzExc3VwZXI3MDhzZWNyZXQ3MTU%253D+%22todd+beamer%22+%22doug+macmillan%22&hl=en

Doug's wife Chivon realizes it was a great career opportunity for Doug. She says ""How ironic," Chivon MacMillan says. "Doug loves what he's doing right now. It must have been Todd's doing."

http://www.jrn.columbia.edu/studentwork/cns/2002-03-20/syndication/JLazarus-MacMillan.txt

Hey Todd, thanks for dying for your best friend's career boost.

then held up a Rolex watch that Beamer wore when the plane crashed. It was found beneath the ground, stopped on Sept. 11 still with the smell of jet fuel.

AT1(AW/NAC) Loren Santa Maria, a command safety officer at VX-20, said MacMillan inspired him.

"The miracle of finding the watch knowing his friend was wearing it at the time was very humbling," Santa Maria said.
http://www.dcmilitary.com/navy/tester/7_43/local_news/20012-1.html

Sorry, HOW did MacMillan "find" the watch beneath the ground? Did he say, "Let me through, I'm the CEO of the Todd M. Beamer Foundation and Todd's best friend and I need to dig for souvenirs"?

The more I look into things, the more questions I come up with.

[MercutioATC]

15. Knock your socks off...

I could spend time trying to figure out if Herbert Hoover really existed. I happen to think it's a little nuts to do, but it'd certainly be my perogative.

As far as the watch goes, logic would dictate that it was recovered by forensic teams at the crash site, bore some distinguishing marking, and was returned to Todd's family. There's no need to paint an unreasonable scenario.

There's also no need to be so cynical about how, occasionally, good can come from somebody's death (MacMillan's previous role as CEO of the Beamer Foundation).

Obviously, you're free to pursue the issue as you like. I'd be interested to know what your conclusion is.

[AZCat]

16. Good god...

You're not dragging that Victor Saracini crap out again?

[Ferry Fey]

18. Rolex and high school, redux

If the Victor Saracini material is such crap, perhaps you'd be so good as to link to where you've already refuted it rather than just making loud proclamations?

Mercutio, you forgot to tell me that Dulcedecorum covered the magic Rolex issue with you last year athttp://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=printer_friendly&forum=125&topic_id=15321 .

Here, for the greatest hits compilation, is a useful observation Dulcedecorum made in that thread:

Reporters were taken to the top of a hill overlooking the scene. The crash left a V-shaped gouge in a grassy field surrounded by thick woods, just below a hilltop strip mine. The gouge was 8 to 10 feet deep and 15 to 20 feet long, said Capt. Frank Monaco of the Pennsylvania State Police.
Investigators believe the plane crashed there and disintegrated, sending debris into thick trees nearby, Monaco said.
''There's nothing in the ground you can see,'' Monaco said of the crash site. ''It just looks like tiny pieces of debris.''
http://911research.wtc7.net/cache/planes/attack/ap_bath...

The gouge was 8 to 10 feet deep and 15 to 20 feet long.
Hmmmmm
Sound like that gouge is
three regular coffins long and just a little deeper than a regular grave.
I wonder where I got the idea that
a Boeing 757 is larger than 10 feet wide and 20 feet long.
Or what Newton meant when he said
matter is neither created nor destroyed.
He was wrong, you know. Flight 93 proves it.

But that's okay, I hadn't seen that thread before. So it was entirely new to me that not only none of Beamer's classmates at the Los Gatos High School classmates.com discussed his death on their message board, but none of Mark Bingham's classmates had discussed his death on that board either! Turns out they'd both gone to Los Gatos High.
http://www.commonwealthclub.org/archive/02/02-08longman-qa.html

The Los Gatos High students are not totally heartless, though. In December 2001 there is quite a substantial posting clarifying the death of a fellow classmate in a crash in 1968.
http://group.classmates.com/user/mboard/thread.tf?thread_id=5996185;message_number=2;#msg3

But if you're researching Mark Bingham, you may want to keep this in mind:

When her son Kerry was 9, and she was walking him to yet another first day at yet another new school, Alice Hoglan had an inspiration.

The boy had always hated his name. Kerry sounds like a girl, he'd complain. So it hit her as they neared the school. "I said to him, `If you want to change your name, this is the time to do it.' " Since no one yet knew him at this school, it was the perfect opportunity to assume a new identity. "He considered it a moment," Alice recalled, "and decided to call himself Mark." For the rest of his abbreviated life, Mark Bingham -- christened Gerald Kendall Bingham -- would never allow others to define him
http://sffog.org/markstory

Here's another strange but true coincidence -- one of the victims confirmed dead at the world Trade Center was named Douglas MacMillan Cherry, 38.
http://www.september11victims.com/september11Victims/VictimInfo.asp?ID=707

[AZCat]

19. Why don't you try...

reading the thread you supplied as "evidence".

[Ferry Fey]

20. Actually, I did...

and I see that you discussed only the issue of the licenses with Dulcedecorum, and did not address the various versions of his timeline at all.

My interests are more in the social matrix someone comes out of, and the stories of someone's life that survive them. Which, as those of us who weren't raised in test-tubes know all too well, often have little to do with reality.

"doug cherry" pulls 734 Google entries, "todd beamer" gets 112,000.

[petgoat]

21. My Brother was One of the "Cool Kids" in High School;

they decided to play a joke on an uncool kid. They started telling
stories about a guy named Dave Prendegast who didn't exist. They had
this uncool kid convinced he'd seen Dave at parties and even went to
the beach with him.

[AZCat]

29. My apologies...

I see from reading downthread (in your exchange with MercutioATC) that you don't seem to be supporting the same arguments as the now banned DulceDecorum was in that thread. One tends to get a little jumpy in online forums because of the remarkable resilience of a bad idea. DD was using poor logic (IMHO) to "prove" a point about Victor Saracini and I tried to correct it (with disastrous results, as you can see).

Mea culpa.

[MercutioATC]

22. I didn't "forget", I rebutted her claims pretty thoroughly in that thread.

If you want to start quoting Dulce, be my guest.

:eyes:

[Ferry Fey]

23. Todd EVANS Beamer

Here's a little more on the mysterious Todd E. Beamer, who had a September 11 birthday, gleaned through ancestry.com.

Todd Evans Beamer Spouse Katherine
Death listed in Oregon records, Jefferson (County or town?)

Curiously, someone at Little Green Footballs posts in 2002:
Think about it: if W ordered flight 93 shot down do you really think that A) someone wouldn't somehow leak this info? Especially with all of the media attention and focus on the heroism of the passengers? The temptation to expose the hypocrisy would be too great. And B) would W be stupid enough to risk having Kathy (?) Beamer at the State of the Union, using "Let's Roll" as a theme, etc if their was a chance some low level official (from the military air crew or civilian investigators) wouldn't leak it to the media? W wouldn't be stupid enough to risk lying about it.

http://littlegreenfootballs.com/weblog/?entry=4125_Three_Minutes

[Ferry Fey]

24. Todd Evans Beamer

Here's the Todd Evans Beamer obituary from 1997. Todd Morgan Beamer was born just 80 days after him.

http://www.pafways.org/obituaries/mcgg/1997/jul1.htm

[MercutioATC]

26. So what?

Two completely different people were born 80 days apart. That's suspicious?

[MercutioATC]

25. Your point?

[Ferry Fey]

27. It's better information than we had before

This information may help dispel speculation that Todd Evans Beamer was the same as or is connected in some way with Todd Morgan Beamer. Is there a problem with that?

I find it curious that they share a significance of September 11th, that they both have classic Welsh names as middle names, and were born within a few months of each other. None of it is necessarily significant in the context in which we raise questions about 9/11.

We've all got our own styles for gathering and assessing information. I tend to spiral around the outside and see what patterns develop from different perspectives. Others may find it more productive to go straight into the center.

[MercutioATC]

28. If that's your intent, no.

Your initial post seemed to imply that Todd Beamer didn't exits. If you're simply gathering information, that's fine (IMO).

Quoting Dulce (a banned member) just gave me pause.

[Ferry Fey]

30. My apologies if I have violated a local taboo

Sorry, I know there are sites that are not permitted to be linked here (and I generally try to avoid doing so unless I absolutely have to), such as that of the odious J*ff R*nse, who has far too much support in the neo-Nazi and white supremacist communities. I know that DU moderators have no hesitation in removing posts and posters entirely, so my assumption was that if a posting was allowed to stay up I can reference it.

I like Dulcedecorum's attention to detail and documentation and mind seems to work like mine, so if you don't like Dulcedecorum's method of working you probably won't like mine.

I was gathering information initially, I am gathering information now, I will be gathering information in the future. I follow where the data goes, and try to be fair and accurate. I try not to make premature judgements about what the information I have at any given time may illuminate about a situation.

Rather than complaining about speculations that the two Todd Beamers are connected, I chose to offer information that might shed light not only on the details of the lives of each, but which explore the role storytelling has in offering a perspective on the deceased. This is especially needed when you see the extraordinary discrepancy in coverage of 9-11 superstars like Beamer compared to others whose life and death remained below the radar like Cherry.

I want to know who is talking, and what they are saying. I know that reporters do not always know what they are talking about, that their sources are often self-serving, that no matter how much the reporter knows or says the unseen hand of the editor may distort the final product. I know that what is a gratuitous factoid to one person is a vital piece of the puzzle for someone else's needs.

I've found over the years that when synchronicities and curious coincidences eddy together that it pays to give closer attention to what is going on. The two Keith Franzs, the two Douglas Macmillans, the two Todd Beamers with 9-11 connections, and this other Wheaton College connection with 9-11 -- for those of us with a more Jungian outlook it's an indication of more going on than meets the eye.

Jason Oswald was Wheaton College Class of ‘95, and Jeffrey Mladenik a graduate of their M.A. program in'95.

Jason worked at Cantor Fitzgerald, Jeff was on Flight 11 which slammed into the Cantor Fitzgerald offices.

“So what is the bizarre circumstance? Flight 11 was the plane that slammed into the offices of Cantor Fitzgerald at 8:45 A.M. Two classmates who had not seen each other in years were both ushered into eternity at the same moment, high above the streets of New York City.”
The Strange 9-11 Story of Wheaton Grads
http://www.jesusjournal.com/articles/publish/printer_52.html

And then there's this:

“Interestingly, unknown to me at the time, Larry Ellison, the energetic leader of the Oracle Corporation, sent out an e-mail to all of the company's employees on Thursday, Sept. 13. In a moving letter, Larry informed the company that a number of Oracle employees were involved in the tragedy of Sept. 11, and at least seven employees were still missing in the World Trade Center rubble. Larry also told the company that Todd had died in the crash of Flight 93.
Then, to the amazement of many, Larry continued to eulogize Todd in an almost prophetic manner. "We know Todd Beamer is dead," Larry reported. "We believe he died when he and other passengers aboard Flight 93 tried to recover the hijacked airplane from the terrorists.... Todd's courageous actions may not have saved the lives of his fellow passengers, but he helped prevent the airplane from reaching its target — our nation's Capitol. Considering the devastation wrought by the other aircraft, it is unquestionable that Todd's brave actions, and of his fellow passengers, saved countless lives on the ground."

Clearly Larry was convinced that Todd had been involved. How did Larry know that? The FBI hadn't made any announcement to that effect. Todd's name had not shown up in any reports indicating that he might have been involved in some way. Yet Larry, like many of us, couldn't imagine Todd Beamer sitting idly by while terrorists threatened to hurt others.” --- A Phone Call From Heaven By Lisa Beamer
http://www.family.org/married/youngcouples/a0021853.cfm

The mystery's not over yet, by any means.

[MercutioATC]

31. Attention to detail is great...

Viewing those individual details in a vacuum and basing an entire theory on them is less than honest. That, IMO, is what Dulce did.

[Old and In the Way]

32. Isn't that interesting.

Did Larry help establish the heroic meme or was he merely prophetic?

I've always wondered about the passengers of these 4 flights. It would be interesting to see a comprehensive website devoted to each of these people to see how much biographical information is or isn't available.

Fascinating post on how few people have been added to the DSSI database.

[Ferry Fey]

33. Some limitations on US Search website

Here's something to note. While all my dead friends and relatives that I've looked up in the SSDI are there, I did find some limitations to the USSearch site.

USSEARCH can be useful for seeing if someone of a certain name has lived in a town at some point. But they don't seem to clean out their database. Both Todd Beamers we've been discussing are still listed there.

In fact, I just looked up my dead grandfather who has been dead for 25 years. They have him listed as being 103, and give the East Coast cities he left in the seventies.

[Old and In the Way]

39. USSearch and Zabatools

You might find this article on the developer of USSearch, Nick Matzorkis, worth a read: http://www.madcowprod.com/MC6812004.html He's tied to Robert Zakari of Zabatools, too.

Nick has an interesting past and an association with the Heaven's Gate cult. I have to wonder about these search engines....how difficult would it be to salt them with bogus information about certain people?

The link is very illuminating on a number of issues; Hopsicker brings up some disturbing things about Michael Ruppert and John Gray from the 9/11 Truth Movement, "War of the Worlds" (original radio version), and Adnan Khashoggi's "Genesis" Companies.

[Ferry Fey]

40. Corrections on Mad Cow Matzorkis article

For the record, the Hopsicker article on Nick Matzorkis which Miranda references ( at http://www.madcowprod.com/MC6812004.html ) is in error about what Hopsicker refers to as a book “America Under Attack” A Reassessment of Orson Welles War of the Worlds” by Paul Heyler of Willfrid Laurier University.

It is an article, not a book. The author is Heyer, not Heyler. The first name in the university name is Wilfrid, not Willfrid. You may find it online at:
http://www.cjc-online.ca/viewarticle.php?id=779&layout=html

The Hopsicker article also references “Invasion From Mars: A Study in the Psychology of Panic,” and claims that
"The results were available to only a few, apparently, with no talk of any paperback release." This book was originally published in 1940, when paperback reprints of even mass-market titles had only been out in the US for a couple of years. There was a trade paperback reprint in 1966, published by Harper and Row.

And while I'm on Hopsicker's case, I'll indict him for spelling the former prime minister as "Ghandi" rather than Gandhi.

[Jazz2006]

34. Kick

Just because it's amusing.

[orleans]

35. the ssdi only lists someone if they were collecting social security

a friend of mine died when she was seventeen years old and she is not on this database

[mirandapriestly]

36. Yes, I do a lot of genealogy

and I hate to say it cuz I love a good potential smoking gun, but my mom, may she rest in peace, isn't on it either and she, unfortunately, passed away 10 years ago.
OTOH, I remember a lot of weird stuff about Beamer and pertinent to DrDebug's posts, I think his father in law was involved in Marsh or another wtc criminal enterprise/company. There was also something about his father and a medical company that had ties to Frist. So much weird stuff, so many distractions.

[mirandapriestly]

37. Here is what Grove said about Beamer

July 8th, 2003: Legato purchased by EMC, exactly 1 year before Kroll is purchased by Marsh.

Legato approached Grove to forge documents in order to boost selling price of Legato to EMC.

Sept 2003: SEC arrests Legato client from a subsidiary of Northrup Grumman for illicit sales contracts with Legato.

Legato’s COO, David Beamer, works under a CEO who signs his correspondence “Let’s Roll”.

Grove’s fiancee worked at Oracle with Todd Beamer.


So his father worked for Legato.

[DoYouEverWonder]

38. Beamer's father ended up with some big contract

for working on the rebuild of the section of the Pentagon after the 9-11 attack. Small world I suppose?

The odd thing that I find with the 'Let's Roll Team' is their similarities. For a flight with only 30 or so passengers, there seems to be an overabundance of healthy, very athletic, very religious, dark haired men who managed to get together and try to take over the plane, while at the same time were the only ones who made lengthy phone calls to the outside world. Beamer especially is some kind of Superman, who talked to the operator at the other end for over 15 minutes, with enough time to say the Lord's Prayer, quote a psalm and plan an attack.

Makes you wonder if BushCo recruited some BushBots for Jesus to carry out the 9-11 attack?

[dailykoff]

42. Don't they also live in FL, and didn't they also visit the WH?

Pretty fishy if you ask me.

[Name removed]

43. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[mirandapriestly]

45. BushBots for Jesus, lol. But, then what?

I mean not even I am willing to think all these people survived and got new identities. Do you think they were duped into thinking they would survive? How do you play it out? I agree, it's strange, but I can't think of any scenario where a conspiracy among them makes sense. The weird thing is the "hijacker" Ziad Jarrah was in training with some former US military instructor at a gym for fighting skills. Weren't there several other martial arts types?


Beamer's wife:
"My boys even say that. When we're getting ready to go somewhere, we say, 'C'mon guys, let's roll.' My little one says, 'C'mon, Mom, let's roll.' That's something they picked up from Todd."

It turns out, they didn't even say "let's roll", didn't it?

[DoYouEverWonder]

47. I don't think they lived

I think they were willing to die for their god and Bush. Why is it we can accept that Muslims are willing to die for their god, but fundie Bushbots aren't?

Look at the FBI and CIA. In the past, they would go to Harvard and Yale and recruit for brains and talent. Now they go to the mega-churches and recruit for blind faith and loyalty. You don't think a few of them would be willing to die for the most important mission of their lives?

I do think they used Middle Eastern men for the WTC. Probably most of them didn't know they were flying to their deaths that day, like Condi, they may have expected a 'traditional' hijacking.

However, Flights 93 and 77 are a different matter. I believe those planes did land and that the passengers were consolidated into one plane - Flight 93, that was flown into a large body of water. Flight 77 was replaced by a C130 that flew over the Pentagon, not into it. The crater at Shanksville was from a missile and was created to distract attention from the real crash site.

Please keep in mind, this is a theory, ie speculation. I know this theory is outrageous and even offensive to some but this is the picture that is appearing when I put together the pieces of my puzzle that I've been collecting. If 9-11 was an inside job, then their had to be a small group of people from the inside who would be willing to die with their secrets. It would be the only way whoever was behind the planning could be assured that no one would ever come forward to tell the truth.

[Ferry Fey]

49. Martial arts types

<i>The weird thing is the "hijacker" Ziad Jarrah was in training with some former US military instructor at a gym for fighting skills. Weren't there several other martial arts types?</i>

You probably saw that I'd put together a list here recently (I'm not sure where) detailing the martial arts training or athletic prowess of many of the Flight 93 passengers.

Here's an interview with Peggy Beamer (Todd's mom) which I hadn't seen before, showing Todd's Wheaton graduation in 1991.
http://www.justbetweenus.org/9_02/hero.html

Here's another in which she discusses some commemorative gestures:

Memorials in the gym and on the front lawn at Los Gatos High School where Todd spent his senior year.

• A student housing residence named the Beamer Cottage at Emmanuel School of Religion.

• The new Student Center at Wheaton College, where both Todd and Lisa graduated, is named The Todd Beamer Center, for which we will always thank the donors who made it possible.
http://www.christianstandard.com/articledisplay.asp?id=107

A 2002 article mentions that Los Gatos High planted trees on the lawn to honor Beamer and Mark Bingham. Bingham's mother Alice Hoglan says she intends to bring rugby back to the school, since it was that which shaped "the aggressive and outrageous character that was my son." She does not similarly credit his activities as a yearbook editor as having any character-building qualities (yearbook editors never get respect)
http://www.svcn.com/archives/lgwt/05.15.02/treeplanting-0220.html

[mirandapriestly]

46. Jeremy Glick's Father worked for the Port Authority at WTC!

too many weird coincidences. There is another one whose father had a medical company in California that is connected and was in legal trouble, but I can't find it.
Two guys who are connected to the world trade center because legato was in a deal with Marsh that Grove said was crooked.

[Ferry Fey]

51. Athletic, military and martial arts training of Flight 93 passengers

For a flight with only 30 or so passengers, there seems to be an overabundance of healthy, very athletic, very religious, dark haired men who managed to get together and try to take over the plane

Flight 93 had thirty seven passengers plus 4 hijackers plus 3 crew. Here are 13 of them whose biographies mention athletic abilities, martial arts skills, or military or police training:

Todd Beamer: college basketball and baseball player (1,2)

Mark Bingham: 6'5" rugby player. Had run with the bulls in Pamploma that summer, and wrestled a gun away from a mugger(7,11)

William Cashman: red belt in karate (5)

Patrick Joseph Driscoll: Korean War veteran. "barrel-chested 6-footer -– had been in more than 100 fights and had won almost all of them. In 1993 Driscoll underwent triple bypass heart surgery. Six months later he went backpacking. He continued to backpack annually, even after a hip replacement in 1998. 'He was extremely strong,' said Maureen Driscoll, his wife of 42 years. 'He swam for exercise and regularly went for walks of 5 to 7 miles, she said, and as far as 10 miles when he was getting ready for a hiking trip.'" (9)

Andrew Garcia: "A sprinter and wrestler at San Jose State, Andy was the runner in the family. Every day of their 32-year marriage, Garcia says, he ran several miles and did a regimen of military calisthenics." (6,12)

Jeremy Glick:6'4" had been a high school wrestler, was a former NCAA judo champion. " His judo went from strength to strength, and he developed a huge frame. As an adult he had to have his suits specially tailored because of the width of his shoulders." (1,2,6, 11)

Linda Gronlund: brown belt in karate (12)

Richard Guadagno: manager of a national wildlife refuge, federal law-enforcement officer, had been trained in close-quarter fighting and antihijacking measures. "The night before, he had packed A SMALL PICKAX into the bag that he would carry on board Flight 93" (1,4,6,7)


LeRoy Homer: First Officer of Flight 93. Air Force Academy graduate, major in the Reserves. (6)

Toshiya Kuge: played American football, soccer (goalie) and was a keen runner (6, 13)

C.C. Lyles: the flight attendant had previously been a police officer and detective for six years (1,3)

Waleska Martinez: played tennis and baseball (6)

Nicole Carol Miller: On high school varsity swim team, played softball all four years of high school, winning a softball college scholarship in her senior year (6)

Louis Nacke, a bodybuilder and "voracious" weightlifter with a Superman tattoo on his arm (1)


1. http://www.family.org/cforum/citizenmag/departments/a0040612.cfm
2. http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2001/09/17/MN40630.DTL
3. http://www.post-gazette.com/headlines/20011028flt93mainstoryp7.asp
4. http://72.14.209.104/search?q=cache:W4sS1gVHl54J:911research.wtc7.net/cache/planes/attack/msnbc090302_flight93.html+%22Richard+Guadagno%22+%22martial+arts%22&hl=en&gl=us&ct=clnk&cd=3&lr=lang_en
5. http://dsc.discovery.com/convergence/flight/honorroll/honorroll_01_02.html

6. http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/movietimes/moviepn.asp?movieID=51020
7. http://www.ladiesagainstfeminism.org/artman/publish/article_1336.shtml
8. http://www.sffog.org/markstory
9. http://cf.newsday.com/911/victimsearch.cfm?id=166
10. http://cf.newsday.com/911/victimsearch.cfm?id=765
11. http://brainmind.com/AmericaAttacked1.html
12. http://www.usatoday.com/sports/sept11/2002-09-09-flight-93-runners_x.htm
13. http://sep11.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toshiya_Kuge

Hijacker Ziad Jarrah is said to have studied martial arts, but John Doe II presents a case for there being two Ziad Jarrahs.
http://www.team8plus.org/e107_plugins/forum/forum_viewtopic.php?2470

FrankL in "Something Strange about Flight 93" says that "23 (and counting) of the 44 people on Flight 93 were not supposed to be on the flight that day."That would argue that many of the passengers most physically able to fight were not there on purpose.”


Edited at request of poster

Lithos
DU Moderator

[mirandapriestly]

56. Daniel Lewin was in counter terrorism for Israeli special forces

also a founder of Akamai which is connected to Darpa and military defense projects on flight 93.

[Ferry Fey]

41. There are a number of different ssdi databases

the ssdi only lists someone if they were collecting social security

There is no the SSDI database.

The SSDI databases (plural) available online are commercially available ones. We cannot tap into the definitive federal SSDI database, which at any rate is does not include the full range of US citizen deaths. They can differ somewhat in their contents, some are not as up-to-date as the others, and all must be considered to be incomplete snapshots.

Any reference to such SSDI databases that we have available online should always cite the source of the listing (which I don't think has been done yet by any 9/11 researcher). I don't know that anyone working on SSDI correllations has indicated awareness that womens' social security records might be listed under maiden names or married names rather than the name commonly used in 9/11 lists. Nor is there indication of whether the person might have dependents collecting their SS and thus not be listed. The questions that have been raised about SSDI lists of those on the planes vs those on the ground might be suggestive, but their documentation is too vague.

As far as marriage records go, I've just checked a database of New Jersey marriage records, and my marriage information is not listed. So don't treat such listings as gospel either.

[mirandapriestly]

44. Death certificate

Some states will give you a death certificate for a small fee even if you are not a direct relative. I suppose it would be issued in the state in which they were buried. That would be one way to find out. I got death certificates for family members and did not need to prove I was related to them. I found out both of my mothers parents had brown eyes. She had sparkling blue eyes. Mystery I don't want to think about.

[Mnemosyne]

50. I've been looking for a link

that had info on new legislation to block anyone getting birth and death certificates unless a family member.

It was awhile ago, last year maybe, but I remember it distinctly.

Do you think they were trying to enact such to keep anyone from tracing victims?

I'll look some more.

[Recursion]

52. I would be surprised if there were death certificates

Doesn't that require a physician to look at a corpse and say, "yeah, this guy's dead"? Hard to do with portions that are the size of pocket change. We had one case of "red mist" in Iraq when I was a mortuary clerk; I don't know how they handled it in the end but I do know the doc couldn't declare him dead at the time.

[mirandapriestly]

54. Didn't realize that.

Probably so. There really is no way to verify.

[Jazz2006]

55. Never heard of DNA evidence?

Obtaining a death certificate does not, in fact, require that a physician view a corpse.

In most instances of death, of course, intact corpses are available for examination (you know, your run of the mill heart attacks, car accidents, cancer deaths, in hospital deaths, home deaths, suicides, murders, etc.)

But it is not the case that entire corpses are required to obtain a death certificate. In fact, in certain circumstances, not even a single tiny piece of DNA evidence is required to get a death certificate after a certain amount of time has passed, etc. etc. "Presumed dead" laws are on the books in most jurisdictions.




Edit: typo.

[mirandapriestly]

53. I just checked

the state of who I am most interested in and they require photocopy of id, damnit. You have to be immmediate family. It could have been tightened up for this reason, but maybe people try to steal the identities of dead people or something. Darn. When I was doing family history and it was easy, they never asked for id.

[savemefromdumbya]

48. let us know what else you find?