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ElsewheresDaughter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-29-05 06:15 PM
Original message
Never Forget!!!
Edited on Thu Sep-29-05 06:19 PM by ElsewheresDaughter
NEVER FORGET that large amounts stock were traded on the NSE of both American Airlines and United Airlines days and weeks before 9/11, and IF there was ever an investigation, the American public was never informed. http://www.hereinreality.com/insidertrading.html

NEVER FORGET that the Downing Street memos revealed that both the US and Great Britain were looking for (or created) a reason to invade Iraq and used 9/11 to justify the invasion http://www.downingstreetmemo.com/

NEVER FORGET that fire has never brought down steel buildings in the history of mankind, let alone within roughly an hours time http://911research.wtc7.net/wtc/analysis/compare/fires.html

NEVER FORGET that President Bush has admitted that he saw the first plane hit the tower before he entered the Florida classroom and before any footage of the first plane existed. http://www.whatreallyhappened.com/bushlie.html

NEVER FORGET that FEMA shipped all the steel from the World Trade Centers out of the United States before any investigation, independent of the governments, could be held. http://www.sourcewatch.org/index.php?title=Destruction_of_Evidence_from_Ground_Zero_at_the_World_Trade_Center

NEVER FORGET that the terrorists were almost all Saudi Arabian, yet we have never invaded that country or questioned its leaders. Hell, we still consider them to be allies (ahem, oil). http://sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/gate/archive/2005/05/20/notes052005.DTL&nl=fix

NEVER FORGET that seven of the supposed hijackers turned out to be alive and not even in the United States on September 11th http://prisonplanet.com/seven_of_the_wtc_hijackers_found_alive.html

NEVER FORGET that firemen heard bombs going off all around them within the towers throughout the time they were trying to save people, and our government and their fourth branch, the media, suppressed these facts http://www.whatreallyhappened.com/911_firefighters.html

NEVER FORGET that demolition squibs, or outward looking explosions, are visible in the collapse photographs of both towers
http://911research.wtc7.net/wtc/analysis/collapses/squibs.html

NEVER FORGET that FBI special agent Robert G. Wright publicly warned America three months before 9/11 that terrorists would use planes to attack the United States, and nobody did anything. http://www.newsmax.com/archives/articles/2002/5/30/161204.shtml

NEVER FORGET that reporters on the scene at the Pentagon found no evidence that a plane had crashed anywhere near the Pentagon, but their reports were quickly pulled from the news http://thewebfairy.com/911/pentagon/index.html

NEVER FORGET that the plane that supposedly hit the Pentagon moved like a military jet per the FAA, completely disintegrated upon hitting the building leaving no trace, only made a small hole through three rings, did no damage to the lawn it flew over, and that all the footage of the plane (captured by cameras at a nearby Hilton, Citgo gas station, and the Virginia Dept. of Transportation) was confiscated in minutes by the FBI and has never been seen by the public http://www.freedomfiles.org/war/pentagon.htm

NEVER FORGET that mock drills of planes flying into the World Trade Centers were coincidentally being performed the morning of 9/11 http://www.prisonplanet.com/agency_planned_exercise_on_sept_11_ built_around_a_plane_crashing_into_a_building.htm

NEVER FORGET that fighter jets were ordered by Dick Cheney to stand down the morning of 9/11 and he has never been held accountable http://www.prisonplanet.com/911/norad.htm

NEVER FORGET that when NORAD fighter jets were finally sent stop the hijacked planes, they flew at half speed in their attempt to intercept the planes http://www.willthomas.net/911/911_Stand_Down.htm

NEVER FORGET that there were 35 USAF bases within range for interception the morning of 9/11 http://www.standdown.net/usafbases.htm

NEVER FORGET that Bush received intelligence regarding terrorists attacking America as far back as January of 2001, and he and his administration did nothing about it http://www2.gwu.edu/~nsarchiv/NSAEBB/NSAEBB147/

NEVER FORGET that Marvin Bush, Georges younger brother, was on the board of directors for the security company, Securacom, that handled security for the World Trade Center complex, Dulles International Airport, and United Airlines; and that he curiously resigned his position the day before 9/11. http://www.commondreams.org/views03/0204-06.htm

NEVER FORGET that they have STILL NOT captured Osama bin Laden

NEVER FORGET that the University of Columbia recorded high-peak seismic readings moments prior to each tower collapsing indicating the use of explosives http://www.wanttoknow.info/010912nytimes

NEVER FORGET that George HW Bush, Sr. met with bin Ladens brother, Shafig, the morning of 9/11 for a Carlyle Group meeting at the Ritz Carleton in Washington D.C http://www.abovetopsecret.com/forum/thread35900/pg1

NEVER FORGET that building 7 was brought down the afternoon of 9/11, as admitted by WTC owner Larry Silverstein, using explosives. Yet the official FEMA report still maintains that it fell from damage and fires caused by the attacks http://www.whatreallyhappened.com/cutter.html

NEVER FORGET that witnesses in Pennsylvania saw an unmarked white military jet in the area prior to flight 93 crashing http://www.rense.com/general64/white.htm

NEVER FORGET that Donald Rumsfeld slipped and and said that flight 93 was shot down in Pennsylvania http://educate-yourself.org/cn/rumsfeldsliponCNN24dec04.shtml

NEVER FORGET that Ernie Stull, the mayor of Shanksville, Penn., admitted that he saw no plane when visiting the crash site shortly after the crash. http://thewebfairy.com/911/93/noplane.htm


May all the victims that morning and all the military and civilian victims since, rest in peace.
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fooj Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-29-05 06:17 PM
Response to Original message
1. Thanks for this. I was thinking the same this afternoon!
We CAN NEVER FORGET! EVER! Recommend!
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JuniperLea Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-29-05 06:18 PM
Response to Original message
2. Thanks!
and recommended! and bookmarked!

that was a lot of work! good job!
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indepat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-29-05 06:21 PM
Response to Original message
3. Nominated
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BobMorr Donating Member (326 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-29-05 06:25 PM
Response to Reply #3
5. Kick
Never forget! Keep spreading the word!
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babylonsister Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-29-05 06:24 PM
Response to Original message
4. Thank you! Bookmarked! nt
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dcfirefighter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-29-05 06:29 PM
Response to Original message
6. "never forget" tattooed on my arm
Steel buildings collapse due to fire fairly frequently. The steel doesn't have to melt to fail, it just has to soften, twist, expand, etc.

There were plenty of plane parts laying around the pentagon that morning. A small jet wouldn't make it through 3 rings.
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HughBeaumont Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-30-05 07:19 AM
Response to Reply #6
18. Completely in their own footprint, with no burning hulk left behind?
Within 85 minutes and ONLY by fire? Name ONE, other than the WTCs. I want to see one that had a complete collapse in it's own footprint, with no steel core left behind. PLEASE.

This thread is SO getting sent to the dungeon.
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dcfirefighter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-30-05 09:12 AM
Response to Reply #18
20. I know engineers who've assessed the WTC
for pay, for NIST. They find nothing hinkey about the collapse.
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windbreeze Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-30-05 01:56 PM
Response to Reply #20
27. But isn't it kinda strange that
The Empire State Building could sustain a direct impact with an airplane....years ago...and it still stands? That plus the fact that the WTC WAS built, with that particular consideration in mind...kinda curious...no??
windbreeze
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renie408 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-30-05 02:00 PM
Response to Reply #27
28. Huh?
When did the Empire State Building get hit by a 747 going full speed and loaded with jet fuel? I must have missed that one.


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petgoat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-30-05 02:37 PM
Response to Reply #28
31. The WTC was hit by 767s, not 747s.
A lot of people seem to believe they were 747s.

747: 875,000 pound takeoff weight

767: 400,000 pounds

The WTC was engineered for a collission with a 330,000-pound 707.


The Empire State Building was hit by a B-25 bomber in 1945.

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renie408 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-30-05 04:44 PM
Response to Reply #31
40. Ok
So the planes that hit the WTC weighed 70,000 pounds more than the buildings were theorhetically designed to withstand.

Also, if something has never happened, isn't the designing basically guesswork? I mean, it is based on well-educated assumptions and prior experiences, but if a gigunda jet plane has not flown into a building, they are basically guessing about the damage it will do, right?
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petgoat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-30-05 11:45 AM
Response to Reply #6
22. "Steel buildings collapse due to fire fairly frequently."
Steel-frame supermarkets, warehouses, and sports pavilions collapse.

City highrises do not. 434 FDNY men died because collapse was
inconceivable. When they reached the damage zone at the 78th floor on
the south tower they spoke calmly of "knocking down" a couple of
isolated fires. They didn't say anything about any raging infernos or
any sagging floors. According to NOVA, most structural engineers were
surprised when the towers collapsed. (1)

Brian Clark walked down from the 84th floor right through the damage
zone. He saw flames, but no inferno, and stopped at the 31st floor to
make some phone calls. As he walked away from the building, a friend
said he thought it might collapse. Clark said "No way! That's a
steel-frame building." (2)

Most of the jet fuel in the south tower burned up in the fireball
outside the building. The lead investigator for NIST said the jet
fuel burned off in ten minutes.

Interviews with FDNY personnel were released last August after the NYT
sued to get them. Any number of firemen report hearing explosions and
seeing flashes of light--and these are people who should be familiar
with the normal kinds of sounds and happenings at fires. (3)


1. http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/wtc/dyk.html

2. http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/wtc/above.html

3. http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=125&topic_id=51793&mesg_id=51793
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renie408 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-30-05 02:13 PM
Response to Reply #22
30. Did you read those links before you posted them?
>>Many structural engineers feel the weak link in the chain within the towers was the angle clips that held the floor trusses between the interior and exterior steel columns.

The angle clips were smaller pieces of steel than the columns and therefore gave out first.

Each floor was designed to support approximately 1,300 tons beyond its own weight, but when one or more gave way in the intense fire of the impact zone, the combined weight of higher floors crashing down reached into the tens of thousands of tons<<
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petgoat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-30-05 02:44 PM
Response to Reply #30
32. Yes I've Read Them
Tom Eagar's "Zipper Theory" (the "angle clips" gave way) has been
regarded as implausible by many of us for a long time. One reason is
'cause it requires that the external truss anchors are so weak they
unzip, but the core-side anchors are so strong that the floors tear down
the 36" X 14" steel core columns as they collapse.

The current dogma, the NIST report, says that these same truss anchors
that MIT thought were so flimsy are in fact so strong that sagging
floors buckled the perimeter columns.

Of course if they'd release the blueprints, maybe we could evaluate the
design for ourselves, but for some reason the WTC blueprints are a
secret.



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Marleyb Donating Member (736 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-30-05 04:02 PM
Response to Reply #32
38. hmmm
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renie408 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-30-05 04:52 PM
Response to Reply #32
41. "Us"? Who is "us"?
I am having a hard time with this. I am sorry, but this just seems...crazy to me. Not because I cannot believe that Cheney wouldn't do it if he could get away with it, but because I can't believe he could get away with it.

Are you an architect or structural engineer? Not doubting you as much as that sounds, just trying to figure out what your area of expertise is and if you are qualified to evaluate the information. And what about the engineers that have looked over what happened and concluded that it was exactly what it appeared to be?
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petgoat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-30-05 07:41 PM
Response to Reply #41
47. Who is "us"?
This being the internet, if I DID claim to have structural expertise
you should not believe me.

"Us" would be people who are interested enough to find out enough to
recognize contradictions in the official story.

Right after 9/11 I read the book "Why Buildings Fall Down" and I
accepted the theory put forth there by Thomas Eagar of MIT. The
raging inferno of the jet fuel melted the steel structures and the
floors unzipped and one knocked down the next, the two knocked down
a third.... kachunk, kachunk, kachunk. Of course that didn't explain
why Building 7 fell down, but that satisfied my curiosity for a while.

But then I saw the picture of the lady in WTC1 standing in the
airplane hole, and there's no blazing inferno.

http://www.pulitzer.org/year/2002/breaking-news-photography/works/attack_5.html

And I read the radio transcript from Battalion Chief Orio Palmer. He
reached the 78th floor of the south tower--ground zero of ground zero.

Chief Palmer: Ladder 15, we've got two isolated pockets of fire. We
should be able to knock it down with two lines. Radio that, 78th floor
numerous 10-40 Code Ones....

Ladder 15: Floor 78?

Chief Palmer: Ten-four, numerous civilians, we gonna need two engines
up here.

http://911research.wtc7.net/essays/nist/

I read Brian Clark's story about walking down from the 84th floor
right through the fire zone. He stopped at 31 to make phone calls!
Nobody had any idea that building was in danger of collapse.

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/wtc/above.html

I saw videos of WTC7 coming down: just straight down with no damage
to buildings to the right or the left. I learned that FEMA couldn't explain it.

http://www.whatreallyhappened.com/wtc7.html

I learned that the FEMA investigation had been obstructed:
investigators had not been allowed proper access to the site, or to
the steel, or to the blueprints. I learned that Fire Engineering
Magazine called the FEMA report "a half-baked farce," and that FDNY
men rioted because the authorities were in such a hurry to clear the
site that the remains of the dead were being desecrated.

I learned that the steel was shipped off to China and India for
recycling before samples could be taken. I learned that NIST had a
new report on Building 7. Now there's no mystery to the
collapse--according to NIST a ten-story hole was scooped out of the
south side of the building by WTC debris. Well how come FEMA didn't
know about that, and how come there are no pictures?

I learned that firemen had reported explosions in the Towers, and
that none of the many people who reported explosions were interviewed
by the 9/11 Commission. I learned that the NIST report on the WTC
collapse conducted extensive computer modeling--of the damaged floors
only, and stopping at the time of the initiation of the collapse. So
their models left out one of the most baffling aspects of the
collapse--that the collpsing floors ground their way down through the
building, taking the massive steel core down with them, instead of
just falling off the sides. I learned that NIST supposes that the
steel got the 900 degrees Centigrade, but they don't have a single
piece of core steel that shows heating above 250 degrees, and they
appear to ignore the ability of steel to wick away the heat. Imagine
trying to melt a parking meter with a cigarette lighter.

I don't need to be an expert, renie, to point out obvious
contradictions, implausibilities, and holes in the official story.
I'm not even sure the buildings were exploded. But keeping the
blueprints secret, destroying the steel, refusing to allow
photographs, and shifting official stories sure make it look like
they've got something to hide. We need a new investigation.
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rman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-01-05 08:27 AM
Response to Reply #6
50. "Steel buildings collapse due to fire fairly frequently"
Evidence please.
It seems that the opposite of what you claim is true. But then again maybe you were being sarcastic.

Other Fires in Steel-Structure Buildings
http://www.serendipity.li/wot/other_fires/other_fires.htm
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Upfront Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-29-05 06:31 PM
Response to Original message
7. Nominated
Great job, thanks. Book marked.
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BrklynLiberal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-29-05 06:32 PM
Response to Original message
8. kicked and nominated
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sellitman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-29-05 07:02 PM
Response to Original message
9. Loose that "Newsmax" link
It should never be used as a reputable source, no matter what it sais.
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IndyOp Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-29-05 08:10 PM
Response to Reply #9
13. There are links to PrisonPlanet, Rense, and
What Really Happened -- the sources are 'out there' -- which is okay by me, but not exactly 'reputable alternative news sources'.

:shrug:
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Tuesday_Morning Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-30-05 10:19 AM
Response to Reply #13
21. Have you checked out
Paul Thompson's site?

http://cooperativeresearch.org

The 9/11 timeline there is the best and it's all referenced by corporate media sources.

I also appreciate his essay: A Very Interesting Day
Check it out.

http://cooperativeresearch.org/essay.jsp?article=essayaninterestingday
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despairing optimist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-29-05 07:11 PM
Response to Original message
10. Recommended and bookmarked
The best memorial to those who died that day is the truth, and the best way to honor them is to hold the guilty accountable for their crimes. All of NYC will go up before I'll forget. Thanks for this thread.
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texpatriot2004 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-29-05 07:27 PM
Response to Original message
11. Recommended and Bookmarked. n/t
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Independent_Liberal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-29-05 08:10 PM
Response to Original message
12. Kick!
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AuntiBush Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-29-05 08:11 PM
Response to Original message
14. Bookmarked & Nominated
Lord, we should never forget but amid the daily hits of corruption and loss of our country's liberties, it gets a bit hard.

Thank you!
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SnoopDog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-29-05 09:30 PM
Response to Original message
15. Thanks for putting this together...
One day, hopefully, the truth will come out.

And our citizenship will realize that our government purposefully killed 3000 Americans and destroyed the towers.
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eridani Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-29-05 10:05 PM
Response to Original message
16. Could we lose the "no plane hit the Pentagon" nonsense?
There are eyewitnesses, and the missing plane and its passengers have never been found. The webmaster at WhatReallyHappened thinks that this is disinformation being spread to discredit reasonable queestions about the other unexplained stuff.
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petgoat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-30-05 12:01 PM
Response to Reply #16
23. The Pentagon 757/Missile Point is Moot
Why was the Pentagon undefended? John Judge said he saw SAMs in the
Pentagon courtyard back in the 50s. He said that in the 90s a
Pentagon employee told him they were guarding against the possibility
of an aerial attack.

The White House had SAMs ever since some nut crashed a small plane
onto the grounds. The Italians installed SAMs at the Genoa airplot in
7/01 at the G-8 summit after reports that Osama planned an aerial
assault. Bush slept on an aircraft carrier for security. Presumably
he would have been protected by the Sea Sparrow system:



Three of these units seem to be sufficient to protect an aircraft
carrier.

Bush had SAMs at his Florida hotel when he slept there 9/10/01.

It is simply incredible that the Pentagon was undefended. In October
of 2000 a drill involving an airliner crashed into the building was
held. The al Qaeda's Project Bojinka plot involved crashing hijacked
aircraft into landmark buildings. Few people know that of the 125
people killed on the ground, 100 of them were civilian construction
workers. I have not investigated it, but some suggest that many of
the 25 military people killed were connected to units that were in
deep doo-doo with Rummy because of what they knew about the missing
$2.3 Trillion that Rummy reported on 9/10/01.

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2002/01/29/eveningnews/main325985.shtml


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SpiralHawk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-30-05 07:00 AM
Response to Original message
17. k & r
Elsewhere is definitely somewhere
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No Exit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-30-05 07:33 AM
Response to Reply #17
19. Whether or not you believe any particular refutation of
The Official Story, it is still laughably easy to see that the whole Official Story of 9/11 is full of holes.

For starters, just try to prove that the "19 hijackers" really were who the * Administration says they were. Face it, no one in the general public really knows WHO was the mastermind of the plan to destroy the WTC.

Planes or no planes, I'm still trying to get over the amazing coincidence that the very regime we had to go after (to retaliate for 9/11 and to make Amurica safe) just happened to be the Taliban in Afghanistan, which had coincidentally contracted with Bridas corporation of Argentina, much to the chagrin of Unocal (and Unocal's and America's response was to interfere with this contract so flagrantly that Bridas actually won a judgment against them in OUR federal appeals court.) Read about Bridas and Unocal, and then come back and tell us that it was only a coincidence that our arch-enemy bin Laden just HAPPENED to be in Afghanistan, and therefore we just HAPPENED to have to invade Afghanistan.
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windbreeze Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-30-05 01:51 PM
Response to Reply #19
26. Let's also not forget
That Bush gave the Taliban $43 million bucks in May of 2001...the same Taliban that BinLaden was the head of..and
Who were the 154 Saudi's that the FBI has admitted were rounded up and spirited out of this country a couple days after 9/11...has anyone ever seen a list?
How could Atta have been one of the hijackers, when his wallet was found in perfect condition on the sidewalk near the WTC AFTER it was all over...
How about the 14 survivors in the basement...who heard explosions, before the planes hit? (who filed a lawsuit)
Jet fuel burns at about 800 degrees(mostly kerosene)...sorry, not going to melt those steel beams and make those buildings collapse..
conspiracy theories will abound as long as there is NO truth available..

windbreeze
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ArkDem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-30-05 12:08 PM
Response to Original message
24. I don't know about the rest of you but I just called my broker
and bought Alcoa;)
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bloom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-30-05 01:35 PM
Response to Original message
25. "Leveling the Freedom Center"
Leveling the Freedom Center

Published: September 30, 2005

To almost no one's surprise, Gov. George Pataki banished the proposed International Freedom Center from ground zero on Wednesday, a day before he announced plans to build a half-million square feet of retail space at the World Trade Center site. Any orderly, open process for creating a vibrant, meditative space there has been discarded. Mr. Pataki killed the Freedom Center a few hours before a public forum on its fate was scheduled to be held. He killed it before the Lower Manhattan Development Corporation had a chance to vote on it.

Since late June, it has been clear that Mr. Pataki would no longer support the Freedom Center, except on terms that would render it meaningless. His argument is that the center's plans are simply too controversial, a notion that was also endorsed by Senator Hillary Clinton earlier this week. It seems to have made no difference that this was an idea Mr. Pataki supported early on, or that the Freedom Center's plans are almost precisely what the development corporation proposed in its outline for a cultural presence at ground zero. Nor does it seem to have mattered that the protest against the Freedom Center - or, more truthfully, against any cultural presence at the World Trade Center site - was based on false information and a profound fear of free speech.

At the root of that vitriolic protest was one question: "Why here?" Why imagine creating an institution that would celebrate freedom and foster discussion of its meaning, and the meaning of 9/11, within the memorial quadrant of ground zero? Wouldn't that dishonor the dead? We have never thought so. We believe that the site is sacred to more than death. It is sacred to life and to the principles - as well as the people - attacked there on Sept. 11, 2001. We believe that this country can be made stronger only by free speech. We believe that the power of that site should be used to consider what happened that day and to see what lessons we can derive from it, not only to mourn the dead."

http://www.nytimes.com/2005/09/30/opinion/30fri2.html?th&emc=th
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renie408 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-30-05 02:09 PM
Response to Original message
29. How many high rise buildings have been hit by gigunda jets full
of jet fuel and going nearly full speed? Is it REALLY that hard to imagine that such a thing would produce an impact, explosion and fire a little more intense than your average high rise electrical fire?? Is it REALLY hard to believe that if three or four floors of a building pretty much MELT that the top part could crash down producing more stress than each subsequent level could sustain and therefore dropping the entire building...within its own foot print?

Is the sherriff of B.F.E, Pennsylvania really equipped to understand what he was looking at when he was staring at a huge trench gouged out of the earth by a jet plane hitting the ground going hundreds of miles per hour?

Will all those links hold up to any kind of professional scrutiny? Do you think that the powers that be are really powerful enough to keep ANYBODY in the media from pursuing this? And if they are ruthless enough to kill anybody who is on to them, why are you still alive?? This is a public message board. Shouldn't you have heard that ominous knock by now?

Look, I am all about the fact that they are bad, opportunistic people who were most likely NOT broken hearted that this happened. But don't you think that if it had been a PLAN, there wouldn't be seven minutes of Bush reading "My Pet Goat" to a bunch of little kids out there to embarrass them? And don't you think they would have been smart enough to plant the WMD in Iraq successfully??
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petgoat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-30-05 02:57 PM
Response to Reply #29
34. According to MIT's Tom Eagar, the impact of the plane was negligible.
He considered it to be "like a bullet hitting a tree".

On the south tower, most of the fuel burned up outside in the fireball.
Popular Mechanics's extremely dishonest piece on 9/11 quoted Forman
Williams, an engineering professor, as saying the jet fuel burned off in
ten minutes. NIST's lead researcher said the same thing.

"if three or four floors of a building pretty much MELT that the top
part could crash down"

Brian Clark saw no raging inferno when he walked down from the 84th
floor of WTC2. NIST has no core steel samples showing heating above 250
degrees Centigrade. Not one.

Have you seen this picture of WTC1? Where's the inferno?

http://www.pulitzer.org/year/2002/breaking-news-photography/works/attack_5.html
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renie408 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-30-05 05:01 PM
Response to Reply #34
42. The inferno would be the orange parts, that would be FIRE, right?
Hey, I will give you this, you are certainly way more informed about this than I will ever be.

So, why is everybody just ignoring this preponderence of evidence that proves that the WTC were demolished? How many sticks of dynamite would that take? Placed where? Set off how? By who? They just demolished a building here and it took days to set all the charges. How much heat would that produce? Wouldn't that kind of demolition produce residue and evidence of that kind of explosion?

I dunno. I have always semi-jokingly said that it was Bushco that 'did' 9/11 because it sure got them where they wanted to go, but I still just have a hard time with all of this. Mostly because I just can't figure out how they would keep it quiet. Maybe that is just what I want to think because the alternative is so gross.
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petgoat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-30-05 08:13 PM
Response to Reply #42
48. "How many sticks of dynamite?"
Van Romero, an explosives expert from the New Mexico Institute of
Mining and Technology, said the collapses of the towers looked exactly
like controlled demolition, that it would not take many pounds of
explosives to do the job, and that he did not believe that fires
brought the towers down.

Later he recanted on the third point, but the first two remain.

"it took days to set all the charges."

Radio controlled charges could be placed in the elevator shafts quite
easily by standing on top of the elevator cars and using them as
movable staging. Scott Forbes, who works for Fiduciary Trust reported
that the weekend of 9/8--9/9

"there was a 'power down' condition in WTC tower 2, the south tower.
This power down condition meant there was no electrical supply for
approx 36hrs from floor 50 up.... The reason given by the WTC for the
power down was that cabling in the tower was being upgraded ... Of
course without power there were no security cameras, no security locks
on doors and many, many 'engineers' coming in and out of the tower."



"Wouldn't that kind of demolition produce residue and evidence of that kind of explosion?"

NIST has refused to test the steel samples for explosive residues, and
most of the steel has been destroyed. It's too bad, because all the
steel was stamped with identifying numbers that would allow every
piece to be identified--so you'd think they could have pulled out the
core pieces from the impact zones out of the pile.


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mattclearing Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-30-05 03:07 PM
Response to Reply #29
35. Because people like you will shout them down.
That's a whole lot of facts to cast doubt on the official story.

You might do better to try and refute them rather than ask rhetorical questions in an effort to justify your reasoning.
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renie408 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-30-05 05:09 PM
Response to Reply #35
43. Right. I am the one keeping this story from coming out.
You know, I am used to my husband blaming me for everything, but it is a little annoying coming from a total stranger.

Honey bunny, I am not the one making the claims. I do not have to refute squat. I would say it is more up to the original poster and the rest of the conspiracy theorists to prove the point they are trying to make. THEY are the ones trying to convince the rest of the world of their reasoning.

I wouldn't doubt that the 'official story' is seriously tweaked to suit...somebody. But don't treat me like there is something wrong with me because I am not swallowing whole the theory that 9/11 was an elaborate, evil hoax perpetuated by this administration to allow them to propel this country into war with Iraq, among other things.
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ComerPerro Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-30-05 02:49 PM
Response to Original message
33. Thats too much to remember. Its easier to just remember
that Saddam attacked US on 9/11, and that's that.

Was it over when the Germans bombed Pearl Harbor???
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mattclearing Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-30-05 03:18 PM
Response to Reply #33
36. Is your second comment supposed to be a joke? n/t
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ComerPerro Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-30-05 03:31 PM
Response to Reply #36
37. First comment is sarcasm and a cynical look on why people buy into Bush BS
They are too stupid to remember all that stuff. The GOP talking points, while mostly a complete lie, are easier to remember.

My second point was a reference to Animal House.
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mattclearing Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-30-05 05:47 PM
Response to Reply #37
46. Nice one.
Forgot that line. :D
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Czolgosz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-30-05 04:37 PM
Response to Original message
39. Great post. I'm not on board with every single point, but I think every
Edited on Fri Sep-30-05 04:37 PM by Czolgosz
single point is very important because, if we had an open government, we wouldn't have any of these questions.

So, even if someone disagrees with these points, I hope he or she nevertheless agrees that we deserve a government which is not so secretive that such questions remain answered.
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renie408 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-30-05 05:18 PM
Response to Reply #39
44. I do agree strongly
with you. I think that just the fact that there are so many questions and people to believe in them and spread them indicates a problem. I just have a hard time with some of this. Again, maybe it is just my naivete, but I feel that most likely the truth falls somewhere between "Bush did it" and the official story. I wouldn't be amazed if Bush, etc. knew that somehow, somewhere some kind of big terrorist attack was going to occur here and he LIHOP because he knew it would suit his agenda. I just have a hard time thinking that they faked two planes demolishing the WTC, flying into a field in Pennsylvania and into the Pentagon and got completely away with it except for some internet chatter.
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ElsewheresDaughter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-30-05 05:42 PM
Response to Reply #44
45. Operation Northwoods...read it.....
Edited on Fri Sep-30-05 05:44 PM by ElsewheresDaughter
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Northwood


Operation Northwoods or Northwoods was the code name for various false flag actions, including terror attacks on U.S. soil, proposed in 1962 by senior U.S. Department of Defense leaders to generate U.S. public support for military action against Cuba in a document entitled "Justification for US Military Intervention in Cuba."

The proposal was presented in a draft memorandum written by the Department of Defense and Joint Chiefs of Staff (JCS) representative to the Caribbean Survey Group. The draft memo was presented by the JCS to Secretary of Defense Robert McNamara on March 13 with one paragraph approved, as a preliminary submission for planning purposes. McNamara rejected the proposal.

The proposal's existence was often dismissed as unfounded conspiracy theory until the draft memorandum was declassified in recent years through a Freedom of Information Act request by the National Security
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rman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-01-05 08:32 AM
Response to Reply #45
51. "Bay of Pigs" invasion - not a proposal but a failed false flag operation:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bay_of_Pigs_invasion

"The Bay of Pigs Invasion (also known in Cuba as La Playa Girón after a beach in the Bay of Pigs where the landing took place) was a United States-planned and funded landing by armed Cuban exiles in Central Cuba in an attempt to overthrow the Cuban communist government of Fidel Castro in 1961. US-Cuban tensions had grown since Castro had overthrown the US-backed regime of General Fulgencio Batista on New Year's Day, 1959. The Eisenhower and Kennedy administrations had made the judgment that Castro's shift toward the Soviet Union could not be tolerated, and moved to overthrow him. However, the invasion failed miserably and proved to be a major international embarrassment for the Kennedy administration. The resulting fiasco of the invasion attempt has been studied as an ideal case of 'groupthink' and poor decision making."



The operation failed not so much because of groupthink but because the plans where all over the US media, and Cuban intelligence service does read US newspapers...
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stickdog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-30-05 10:01 PM
Response to Original message
49. Unfortunately, I don't.
:scared:
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MellowOne Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-01-05 11:42 AM
Response to Original message
52. that's awesome
Write a book and get it out to the American public, please.
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pox americana Donating Member (622 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-01-05 11:48 AM
Response to Original message
53. Great list!
Another good memory aid is an old newspaper from the months following 9-11. Every front-page headline is a glowing accolade of the administration, every picture is a proud Rumsfeld / Bush / Cheney / Ashcroft purposefully striding off to save America.

I recently came across a big stack I'd saved for historical purposes and dumped the whole lot. Disgusting.
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earth mom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-01-05 01:49 PM
Response to Original message
54. Awesome Post! Thank You! nt
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Lithos Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-13-05 09:11 PM
Response to Original message
55. locking
whatreallyhappened.com, rense and other sites noted for publishing material from holocaust revisionists as well as other hate-based agendas are not considered acceptable sources on DU.
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