UA 93: Detailed analysis of crash site: It's faked!

[Andre II]

Here the link to a detailed analysis of the crash site by John Doe II which I just managed to read.
Amazing work!

Only I don't share Doe's timidity. He doesn't say it but still he proves it in my eyes: This crash site can only be faked.
Check it out for yourself and see how to refute it:
http://www.team8plus.org/forum_viewtopic.php?7.1161

[spooked911]

1. The only way it makes sense to me is if it was faked OR

if they've misreported the crash scene in some critical way.

Certainly the flight 93 crash is the oddest plane crash I've ever heard of and defies logic, as I have posted here many times.

The important thing is that we have reason to think the crash was faked because of the synthetic nature of 9/11.

[Andre II]

2. Any

explanation how a plane can have caused the crater?

[Name removed]

3. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Kevin Fenton]

4. WaPo

How accurate is the Washington Post?
Is the number 45 accurate and does it include the hijackers?

[killtown]

5. Here's where I got 45 along with Wash Post

UNITED AIRLINES FLIGHT 93

United Airlines Flight 93, from Newark, New Jersey, to San Francisco, California, crashed in rural southwest Pennsylvania, with 45 people on board.

http://www.cnn.com/SPECIALS/2001/trade.center/victims/ua93.victims.html



Passengers on S.F. flight died heroes

Among the possible targets was the White House, officials said. Instead, United Flight 93 went down in southwestern Pennsylvania Tuesday morning, killing all 45 aboard.

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/c/a/2001/09/13/MN18608.DTL

[killtown]

6. and Guardian

United flight 93

Some 38 passengers and seven crew were on board when United flight 93, en route from Newark to San Francisco, crashed into a field in Somerset County, Pennsylvania.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/wtccrash/story/0,1300,551409,00.html


38 + 7 = 45

[Kevin Fenton]

7. Longman says

in the author's note on page xv and xvi:
"Originally, United and government officials said there were forty-five people aboard the pane. Later, authorities amended the figure to forty-four, saying that one passenger - apparently Marion Britton, in coach - had bought two tickets."

The author's note then gets very strange "In the interset of a coherent narative, I have used the figures, providd by the authorities, of ten passengers in first class, and twenty-seven in coach, when the plane took off from Newark."
In the interest of a coherent narrative? Shouldn't he actually do his best to get the damn number right?

[killtown]

8. what's the link on that one?

That's interesting, but not sure what article your are talking about.

[Kevin Fenton]

11. Among the Heroes

The book by Jere Longman.

[killtown]

10. Compare Flight 93 crash pics with these

"Flight 93" crash smoke plume:



Ordnance blast plume:



"Flight 93" crash crater:





Real plane crashes:



http://aviation-safety.net/photos/displayphoto.php?id=19670630-2&vnr=1&kind=C



http://aviation-safety.net/photos/displayphoto.php?id=19670630-2&vnr=2&kind=C



http://aviation-safety.net/photos/displayphoto.php?id=19780404-1&vnr=1&kind=C



http://aviation-safety.net/photos/displayphoto.php?id=19810714-0&vnr=1&kind=C



http://aviation-safety.net/photos/displayphoto.php?id=19841201-0&vnr=5&kind=C

[killtown]

17. Compare Flight 93 crash photos with Russian midair crashes

Double air disaster hits Russia
Two Russian airliners carrying 89 passengers and crew have crashed within minutes of each other after flying out of the same Moscow airport.
Wreckage from the first plane, a Tu-134 bound for Volgograd, was found near the village of Buchalki, in the Tula region, about 200km (125 miles) from Moscow.
The second plane, a Tu-154 heading for the Black Sea resort of Sochi with 38 passengers and eight crew on board, disappeared from the radar at around the same time.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/3596354.stm

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/in_depth/photo_gallery/3596920.stm

[spangler]

9. Brilliant job from JDII

The only other possibility for a crater like this would be from a plane falling in a nose dive from a massive height.
However, there would have been a huge lump of crushed plane at the bottom of the crater, probably with crushed passengers inside it.

As far as I'm aware, nothing like this was ever pulled from that crater so the ONLY explanation is that the crater is faked

[killtown]

12. I've notice the official 9/11 story believers are staying away

from this Flight 93 thread like the plague! As I said before, I think the "no Flight 93 crash" is the easiest conspiracy to prove!

[Kevin Fenton]

13. More photos

You ask "White smoke?" With reference to the time it takes jet fuel to burn off, please explain why you don't think the smoke should be white.

Here are a couple of photos of plane crash explosions from Aviation Safety you forgot to post:
http://aviation-safety.net/photos/displayphoto.php?id=20050814-0&vnr=2&kind=C

http://aviation-safety.net/photos/displayphoto.php?id=19970806-0&vnr=4&kind=C

"I think the "no Flight 93 crash" is the easiest conspiracy to prove!"
Really? I think it's absolutely the daftest one.

[Andre II]

14. Daftest

Well, the go ahead and explain how a plane could have crashed there!
Qnd why exactly is this the daftest CT?
Cause no witness saw anything resembling a plane and only one witness swa the crash?

[killtown]

15. You mean those 2 photos that show

a lot more smoke and plane debris? Why yes, I should have posted these too!



Notice tail-section still intact and dark smoke:



Notice multiple plane debris in foreground:



Why no sizable plane debris of Flight 93?

[killtown]

16. How did Flight 93 crash then

and cause that small crater and what happened to the wings which would have extended outside of the small crater?

[Kevin Fenton]

18. Crater

People have different opinions about the crater. How big do you think it is and could you post a photo of what you think it is please?

[Andre II]

19. Original post

If you bother to read the original post you'll find the estimation of its size by many witnesses.

[Kevin Fenton]

20. Killtown

I want Killtown to say how big he thinks it is. You can say how big you think it is too, if you want.

[Andre II]

21. Jesus

I wasn't there. Just read the witness' accounts. Not a single corresponds to the size of a Boeing.

[Kevin Fenton]

22. Size

How big a hole do you think a Boeing should make?

[spangler]

23. Missing the point completely

All the witnesses saw the plane flying low- gradually lower - only one person saw it crash

If a plane flies (or falls?) vertically, nose-first from a very high altitude it *might* make a crater like that with no big pieces of plane *visible* but there would be large pieces of plane in the crater. There were no large pieces of plane in the crater, or near the crater.
Where are the large pieces of plane???? Explain where they are!

Now
1) Think about a plane flying low and fast
2) Think about a car driving down a narrow street at 100 mph

If the pilot suddenly pushes the control yoke forward how long does it take before the plane hits the ground?
In that very brief period how much momentum is transferred from horizontal to vertically down?

Think about the car driving down the narrow street, what happens if the driver tries to crash into the wall on his left?

I'm not a physicist but you can be certain that this crater was not made by the low flying plane the witnesses saw.

[Kevin Fenton]

24. Definition

"there would be large pieces of plane in the crater"
I think the first thing you should do is define large.

[Andre II]

40. Telephone book

The size of debris that was found on 911 itself wasn't bigger than the size of a phone book.

[killtown]

45. I like the coroner's quote...

"Miller was among the very first to arrive after 10:06 on the magnificently sunny morning of September 11. He was stunned at how small the smoking crater looked, he says, "like someone took a scrap truck, dug a 10-foot ditch and dumped all this trash into it." Once he was able to absorb the scene, Miller says, "I stopped being coroner after about 20 minutes, because there were no bodies there. It became like a giant funeral service."

http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/wp-dyn?pagename=article&node=&contentId=A56110-2002May8¬Found=true



"The impact of the crash of Flight #93 left almost no trace above ground. Photo by S.C. Spangler/Tribune-Review" - FEMA

[Andre II]

33. Good point

and what altitude does a Boeing need in order to manage crashing at an angle of 90° while being seen before as almost flying horizontally?

[Andre II]

32. The gouge should be

at least big enough that the tail fits in...

Concerning the size of the crater from Team8plus:
http://www.team8plus.org/forum_viewtopic.php?7.196

there are some witnesses who estimated the crater:
“The apparent point of impact was a dark gash, not more than 30 feet wide , at the base of a gentle slope just before a line of trees.”
(Pittsburgh Post Gazette, 9/12/01 b)

“The plane left a crater 20 feet wide and 15 feet deep ”
(Plain Dealer, 9/12/01 b)

The crash impact left a crater estimated to be 10-feet deep and 20-feet wide.
(Cox News Service, 9/12/01 c)

“The crash left a V-shaped gouge in a grassy field surrounded by thick woods, just below a hilltop strip mine. The gouge was 8 to 10 feet deep and 15 to 20 feet long , said Capt. Frank Monaco of the Pennsylvania State Police. “
(AP, 9/12/01 e)
http://www.courier-journal.com/localnews/2001/09/12attack/ke091201s69779.htm

“King saw the pushed-up earth and the crater that measured thirty feet or more in diameter. ”
(Among the Heroes, 302)

In the late afternoon reporter Michelle Wright estimated a much bigger crater:
“Pittsburgh's WTAE-TV reporter Michelle Wright toured the crash scene and said that a crater of about 30 to 40 feet long, 15 to 20 feet wide and 18 feet deep was created by the crash. ”
(Cleveland Newschannel, 9/11/01)
So, based on the witnesses we have a crater that is 15 – 40 feet long and 15-20 feet wide and 8 – 18 feet deep.

I think the following statement concerning the depth of the crater is not necessarily a contradiction:
“The cockpit data recorder, one of the so-called black boxes would be excavated fifteen feet into the crater and the cockpit voice recorder at twenty-five feet.”
(Among the Heroes, 303)

But how to explain that a plane which tail has a height of 44 feet and 6 inches can be in the crater that by the most generous estimation is 40 feet long?

[Andre II]

31. Quiz show

I don't really understand your attitude.
This is not a quiz show: You're not a teacher and killtown not a schoolkid.
Moreover killtown has proven his extensive research with his website.
This is not a quiz show here.
We're here to figure out what has happened on 911.
If you call the theory that the crash site is faked the daftest CT then please provide some argument for your claim.

[killtown]

25. you need to answer my question 1st

you can ignore the word "small" in my question if you want to.

[Kevin Fenton]

26. Your questions

"How did Flight 93 crash then and cause that small crater and what happened to the wings which would have extended outside of the small crater?"

Later you write that "you can ignore the word "small" in my question". However, "small" is the operative word in the question. I don't accept that the crater is "small" compared to other similar crashes. Tell me about a similar crash with a bigger crater and we can compare them.

If the wings did extend beyond the crater (and I'm not accepting they did yet), then this is because they shattered on impact into lots of tiny pieces.

Happy? So, how big are you saying the crater is?

[killtown]

29. Maybe "shallow" is a better word

I'll stipulate the the crater is "wide" and not "small" width wise. However, officials say the crater was between 30-50 ft deep. To me it looks no more then 10ft deep max.

1) Please explain how a 155 ft long plane only made a 10ft deep crater when the plane supposedly went into this crater.

2) Did the wings go into the crater too? If not, what do you think happened to them since you "don't accept" that they extended outside the crater.

3) What happened to all the thousand of gallons of fuel on board the plane?

[Kevin Fenton]

35. Depth

Based on what do you think he crater is only 10ft deep? How deep do you think the crater should be?

"1) Please explain how a 155 ft long plane only made a 10ft deep crater when the plane supposedly went into this crater."
The plane was 155ft long, but the crater may or may not have been 10ft deep. Many plane crashes do not involve any sort of crater, so where's the problem here? How deep do you think it should be?

"2) Did the wings go into the crater too? If not, what do you think happened to them since you "don't accept" that they extended outside the crater."
The wings either shattered on impact and didn't make a crater - the further towards the tips you get, the more likely this is. Alternatively, the crater is big enough and they went into it - I haven't seen any definitive measurements of the crater yet, so I don't know whether it's big enough for the wings to go in.

"3) What happened to all the thousand of gallons of fuel on board the plane?"
The plane's maximum fuel capacity is 11,500 gallons and it's maximum range is 3,900 nautical miles (7,222 km). New York is about 2,500 miles from Los Angeles, so let's say the plane's tanks should have been 3/4 full on takeoff. That gives us roughly 8,700 gallons minus what was burned up in 80 minutes of flying. So let's say there should be 7,000 gallons left, OK?
It either:
(1) Exploded in a fire ball;
(2) Caught fire on impact;
(3) Leaked when the plane was in the air; or
(4) A combination of them.

[killtown]

36. photos of crater depth with people around it

they provide a good scale with the people there that makes the depth look not much more than the height of the people standing around it.




"(1) Exploded in a fire ball;
"(2) Caught fire on impact;

The plane was said to have plunged 30-50 ft below the ground inside the crater. Seems to me if it exploded you would see debris scattered all around the crater and more of the dry grass that is seen along side the crater would be burnt and you would see evidence of a huge jet fuel fire in and around the crater in which no one ever witnessed. If it did plunge down into the dirt, the dirt and lack of oxygen would prevent any fires from burning.

And if these two things is what happened (which I would agree would have had to happen), is it really believable that they were able to recover over 70% of the plane and remains of all the passengers as officials claim?





"(3) Leaked when the plane was in the air; or

There is no evidence of this.

[Andre II]

39. I especially

like the last pic.
The grass around the crater shows no mark of any explosion. Compare this to eg:

[jmb597]

41. how convenient...

You don't find it strange that all flights completely disappeared in all crashes?

You don't accept anything but the official story regardless of evidence. You are a disinformation agent...admit it. I am going to call you out on it everytime, because you never post unless its to battle someone's findings. I just don't understand why you or any other who doesn't believe this was a cover up even comes here. Is this fun? What do you get out of it?

you ask questions, but never answer them when we are asking. Why do you think a plane crashed here? If you just look at the crater and have no knowledge of 9/11, would you immediately assume it was a plane?

[killtown]

42. Careful, you're arguing with Kevin "The Daftest" Fenton!

He claims out of the 4 crashes, the PA one is the hardest to prove it was a conspiracy!

[jmb597]

43. All I can say is...

WOW...it's amazing to me how they refute everything, but don't back it up. Those that are for the official story are the ones that are supposed to be able to prove everything, our job is to just ask the right questions...right? They seem to have it the other way around...or, does that mean ours is the official story and they have the conspiracy theory? hmmmmmm

[killtown]

44. Whoever still believes the Official Story is a War Criminal

and a traitor.

[oblivious]

27. Can someone give me more information about this passport?

The team8 link in the OP scroll down 11 photos until you see a group of 6.

Below those photos it says:
We can add to the list of identified objects the evidence that were officially found at the crash site:
Jarrah’s passport.
The hijacker’s letter.
A paper with the phone number of Jarrah’s cousin.

That is rather fascinating information, a miracle, similar to finding Satam al-Sugami's passport at the base of the WTC after the crashes. This is the first I've heard about this, but could find nothing in the links provided on that page giving information about this.

Can anyone help?

[killtown]

28. Jarrah's passport

"Jarrah was questioned after he had already spent six months in the United States learning to fly. He had a valid U.S. multiple-entry visa in his passport, a fragment of which was found at the Flight 93 crash site." - CNN


"Hijacking Letter Found at Three Locations" - FBI

Not sure about the # of Jarrah's cousin. Haven't heard that one yet.

See my Flight 93 page for the above mentioned and more.

[oblivious]

30. Thanks killtown -- "a fragment of which was found". Hmmm.

[Andre II]

34. Here you go

I've seen a picture of the passport on the net but can't find it right now.
But still here:
http://www.cooperativeresearch.org/essay.jsp?article=essayjarrah

There you can look for the work permit, too.

[spangler]

37. and it looks like him but not like him at the same time.

I had it on my site but its cancelled now because I didn't pay the bill :(
I'll upload it if I find it

F

[oblivious]

38. 'petgoat' was good enough to post it on mopaul's GD thread.

No similarity there. They both look like males, but that's about it.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=104x5644180#5655081

[Andre II]

46. In view of the ongoing discussion

:kick:

[BuddyYoung]

47. I just noticed something. Total absence of OCT'ers on threads like this

Wonder why.