Flight 93: Plane Swap over Pennsylvania

[Woody Box]

Plane Swap Over Pennsylvania

Flight 93 and his Doppelganger - by Woody Box

January 16th, 2006

When beginning my research into the emergency landing of Delta Flight 1989 at Cleveland which resulted in The Cleveland Airport Mystery, I stumbled into a mess of conflicting reports making it impossible to obtain a clear picture of the fate of this airplane. I soon realized, however, that the numerous contradictions could be elegantly solved by postulating the existence of two different airplanes. Now, by a process comparable to the untangling of two twisted phone cords, it was possible to establish a consistent timeline for each of both planes.

This article deals with the last ten minutes of Flight 93 over Pennsylvania and, encountering the same contradictions, uses the same methods to solve them. The available accounts on Flight 93 are contradictory concerning its radar status, altitude, and flight path while being in Pennsylvania airspace.

The best explanation: there were two different airplanes.

http://www.team8plus.org/content.php?article.26

[MrSammo1]

1. If a jet was swapped......

where is the evidence of the jet?

[DoYouEverWonder]

2. It's definitely not there

but you might look in Indian Lake.

[MrSammo1]

5. If it crashed at Indian Lake........

why not show the crash?

[DoYouEverWonder]

8. They had to hide the extra bodies

I don't think they were able to do the Pentagon with a passenger jet, like they did with the WTC which was an easy wide open target. The Pentagon was much more problematic, being built to supposedly withstand a nuclear war, ha ha. Either way, the building was reinforced out the yin-yang and a regular plane would have a hard time hitting just the right spot, the one that people weren't occupying yet, and to not make a bloody mess on the lawn.

I can give you links to the eyewitness accounts of debris coming down in Indian Lake which was 3 to 5 miles ahead of the 'crash' site.

[MrSammo1]

9. Check your in box.

it may change your mind.

[DoYouEverWonder]

11. What is there to change?

I assume you are the author of the article at the link you sent me?

If that's you, then it seems we are on similar tracks? Either way, you seem to agree that there is no plane at the Shanksville site? And if there is no plane at the Shanksville site, then the government lied. The official story is a lie. If they lied about Shanksville, then what else did they lie about. From my research, I can say they lied about the whole enchilada.

[killtown]

4. Flight 93 is the easiest to prove it didn't crash there

The earth doesn't swallow 155 ft planes whole!

[Woody Box]

37. The hole was caused by neither of the two jets...

...but in all probability by a bomb, spit out by the "warthog" plane which was seen at the crash site by many.

The first jet landed probably at Pittsburgh Airport (how convenient the airport was evacuated minutes before).

The second jet landed probably at Cleveland Airport - that's why he popped up as "Flight 93" in the now famous message from a local TV station. Note that he carried 200 passengers - not really the original number of about 40 passengers of Flight 93...

[savemefromdumbya]

65. right

[DoYouEverWonder]

3. I wonder how things would have gone down

if all of the planes took off on time like they were supposed to? It would have been a lot easier for BushCo to maintain their 9-11 fairytail.

[MrSammo1]

6. They all did take off as planned........

Two military jets and two global Hawks.

[DoYouEverWonder]

7. But all of the airplanes

with passengers were supposed to take off by 8:01 AM. Part of the reason why they picked these flights is that the earlier the flight, the better chance it has of taking off on time.

Fortunately, Flight 93 got stuck on the runway and left about 43 minutes late. I believe that's why Flight 77 is doing a loop-d-loop into WV. They start the loop just when Flight 93 would have been taking off. Then Flight 77 comes back to the original course and continues WEST! Odd behavior for a hijacker, unless the hijacker knew he didn't have to worry about fighter jets up his ass. Why would Flight 77 have to stall in order to wait for Flight 93 to take off I don't know, but it sure looks like that is what is going on. Both planes then turn back pretty much at the same longitude. One hits it's target and the other disappears.

Flight 77 was the only thing that went into stall mode. So did Bush and everyone else in the Top Command. This is why Bush got stuck with his pants down reading a story book, and Rummie & Wolfie acted like there was nothing they could do, and Cheney sat in his office until 9:35 AM watching the attack on CNN.... For some reason Flight 93 was very important and everyone had to wait for it.

[MrSammo1]

10. nice graphics.......but

be very careful when you analyze any printed text or graphics.

Consider from whence they came.

[DoYouEverWonder]

12. I understand

that these maps don't prove anything. But there are a couple of things, that for the sake of argument we need to accept as true. For example, what time did the four flights take off and what time did their 'designated' targets get hit. Then you at least have flight time, the difference between take off and attack. What this tells us is that for over 2 hours, hijacked planes were flying without any hindrance over the country. You can do a lot in 2 hours. Like land planes, disembark passengers and switch equipment.

Maybe you are right that the delay was on purpose? I have always thought the delay was a screw up, because it forced Bush & the gang to stand around looking like idiots for over 1/2 hour. I really think they were planning to be done by 9:00 AM. Their reactions to the attack would have been a complete 180 from what we saw on 9-11. If the planes had hit by 9:00 AM, Bush would have just arrived at Booker. There were at least 4 to 6 major news teams on site already. He would have hopped out of the car, with reporters screaming what about NYC and DC. He would have made a brief, reassuring statement and for obvious reasons would be whisked off to safety. Rummie would be playing hero, pulling bodies from the fire instead of twiddling his fingers with Wolfie, and Cheney would have gone to the bunker immediately, instead of getting caught sitting around his office watching CNN until 9:35 AM.

[MrSammo1]

13. I don't think you do.......

When I say, "consider from whence they came." I'm talking about the fact that the graphics that you posted come from a media that is basically controlled by the very people who perpetrated the crime.

[DoYouEverWonder]

14. Yes, I agree

I don't believe those graphics are accurate. But we don't have much else to work with here for reference points for any of this except for what the government has shown us.

[MrSammo1]

15. But we don't have much else to work

Then all you can base your theory on is the physical evidence.

[DoYouEverWonder]

16. Are you suggesting

that since there is no physical evidence of any passengers, that maybe there were no passengers?

What happened to the people who are still 'missing'? What about the families of these people who were all over TV after 9-11?

[MercutioATC]

17. But there WAS evidence of UAL93 passengers...

"Investigators yesterday appeared to be initially searching in the immediate area of the plane's impact -- a soot-singed crater and a V-shaped gash in the adjacent trees. They have recovered some human remains, pieces of plane seats and seat belts and a few personal items, including check books, clothing and a singed Bible, but said they haven't found anything larger than an ordinary briefcase or telephone book."

http://www.post-gazette.com/headlines/20010913scene0913p3.asp

"Miller said he had identified 12 of the victims through dental records and fingerprints. He is refusing to release the names of those victims, saying he does not want to upset their families.

He said DNA testing would be used to identify the other victims, a process that could take months."

http://www.post-gazette.com/headlines/20010929somerset0929p3.asp

"Evidence collection teams late Wednesday recovered the first recognizable human remains from the crash of United Airlines Flight 93 in Somerset County."

http://www.pittsburghlive.com/x/search/s_47536.html


There is no shortage of news articles reporting the discovery of human remains. There were even identifications made using dental records and fingerprints BEFORE DNA testing was done that identified the remains as having come from UAL93 passengers.

[killtown]

18. You guys don't actually believe they recovered all the remains

from the crash crater that was said to "swallow" an entire 757 do you?

[MercutioATC]

19. No, which is why some passengers remain "unidentified".

However, some WERE positively identified. That kinda means that their remains were there...


...and since they were UAL93 passengers and their remains were found at a crash site where UAL93 "supposedly" crashed, it's not accurate to say that no UAL93 passenger remains were found.

[killtown]

20. Some? All!

"United Airlines Flight 93 slammed into the earth Sept. 11 near Shanksville, Somerset County, at more than 500 mph, with a ferocity that disintegrated metal, bone and flesh. It took more than three months to identify the remains of the 40 passengers and crew, and, by process of elimination, the four hijackers.

Although this report says all but one:

Personnel from the AFME supported, including acting as team leader, the identification of remains from United Airlines Flight 93 that crashed in Somerset, PA. All but one of the passengers and crew were identified. Armed Forces DNA Identification Laboratory personnel were crucial in identifying victims." - Soldiers to the Rescue/Armed Forces Medical Examiner

Btw, who said they were found at the crash site?

[MercutioATC]

21. Did you even READ the links you posted???

Who said they were found at the crash site? The very articles you linked to!

"Those remains were gathered by the FBI and other investigators from the 50-foot-deep pit the Boeing 757 jet gouged in a reclaimed strip mine, and from the woods adjoining the crash site."

http://www.post-gazette.com/headlines/20011230flight931230p3.asp

"Personnel from the AFME supported, including acting as team leader, the identification of remains from United Airlines Flight 93 that crashed in Somerset, PA.

http://history.amedd.army.mil/memoirs/soldiers/afme.pdf

[killtown]

22. Ah, so our gov't says they found them there!

1) So it couldn't be a conspiracy, right?

2) Do you really believe they recovered all Flt 93 passenger remains inside that little crater?

[MercutioATC]

23. Ahhh, so EVERYTHING'S a conspiracy.....

1) You have no problem citing government employees' statements when they appear to support your CTs. Isn't it a little hypocritical to believe any government employee statement that supports your CT and disbelieve any government employee statement that doesn't? That's not a conspiracy, that's intellectual bias.

2) No, I don't. The reports clearly state that the remains were found in the crater and the surrounding woods. They weren't all in the crater.

[killtown]

40. Yes, everything about 9/11 is a conspiracy

Our own frickin govt's version is a conspiracy!!!

1) You have no problem citing government employees' statements when they appear to support your CTs. Isn't it a little hypocritical to believe any government employee statement that supports your CT and disbelieve any government employee statement that doesn't? That's not a conspiracy, that's intellectual bias.

1) If it's a gov't conspiracy, wouldn't you agree that officials involved would lie?

2) Gov't officials who say things that support my theory were likely not in on it because if they were, why would they knowingly give out info that would prove their guilt???

2) No, I don't. The reports clearly state that the remains were found in the crater and the surrounding woods. They weren't all in the crater.

How did those alleged small body parts which, I assume, were still inside the plane when the ground swallowed it???

[DoYouEverWonder]

24. So who are these families

who actually received 'remains'?

What was the quality of these remains? Are we talking whole bodies or just small bits?

[MercutioATC]

25. Just read the article...it gives a pretty good explanation:

http://www.post-gazette.com/headlines/20011230flight931230p3.asp

[DoYouEverWonder]

27. Yes, they found 'remains' and effects

but no bodies. Odd, not one single body from four different plane crashes. Everything, everywhere just desintergrated? Hard to prove anything under these circumstances. If you've ever seen cremated remains there's certainly no way to tell if what's in that urn is Uncle Harry or Aunt Sue.

BTW: In regards to our GD conversation - what do you think happened on 9-11? Might as well hijack this thread - pun intended.

[MercutioATC]

33. They found the remains and effects of UAK93 passengers...

How did those remains come to be there unless UAL93 crashed there?


It's not unusual for bodies to not survive a plane crash completely intact. In many plane crashes, the pilot is attempting a landing and has slowed the plane (making for a lesser impact). In these four cases, the planes were travelling at high speed. Higher speed = smaller bits.



As for your other question, I think that the administration was warned that something like this was at least possible if not probable but ignored the threat (much like Bush being warned about what Katrina would do to NOLA). That's a great example of incompetence but I don't think Bush caused Hurricane Katrina and I don't think he planned 9/11.

Yes, I think the administration has lied to attempt to cover up this incompetence (remember, their big sales pitch is that they'll protect us...they'd lose that if they admitted that they dropped the ball on 9/11). I also think that, as in every event, there are details that aren't known and the administration has tried to fill in these gaps in ways that reduce their culpability.

Yes, I think further investigation is warranted. Not to prove that "Bush did it", but for two reasons:

1) To expose this Administration's incompetence, and

2) To figure out exactly where our systems and procedures failed so we can fix the problems.


....that's the gist of my thoughts on 9/11.

[DoYouEverWonder]

36. Yes, your NOLA analogy is a good example

However, I believe that the incompetence and the failure to lead is very much on purpose.

Bush reminds me of an evil version of Tommy Smothers. Everyone thinks he's dumb, that's part of his act but that all it is, is an act. However, just like Tommy, behind the scenes Bush is very much in charge.

[MrSammo1]

26. Check......

your inbox!

[DoYouEverWonder]

28. I did

In regards to the 9-11 Victims Compensation Fund, I can understand why so many more families of victims from the planes would not file claims in comparison to the number of claims filed by victims that were in the buildings. I would assume that the victims on the planes would have a better chance at winning a bigger settlement in court since it would be easier to prove negligence on the part of the airlines.

In regards to your SS Death Index, where did you get full and correct names plus SS numbers to come up with your data?

[MrSammo1]

29. 9-11 Victims Compensation Fund

The fund was set up so that the airlines wouldn't get sued. The victims' families couldn't sue the airlines.

Just input the name and the month of Sept 2001.

[DoYouEverWonder]

30. The names published aren't necessarily

the victims legal names.

The name I use and sign every day is not exactly the same as the one SS lists since I rarely use my middle name but they do.

Without SS #'s, it is difficult to prove that these people aren't listed somewhere.

[Ferry Fey]

31. Online SSDI records can differ in results

The online SSDI does not need full names and social security numbers to give a list of matching names. You can just input by name (including having it look for Soundex variations that would give names that sound somewhat the same). Not all online SSDIs work from the same database.

I just checked my mom's death information at the Rootsweb site, http://ssdi.genealogy.rootsweb.com/ . I got 110 entries for that name (I just used first and last names).

Interestingly enough, it has a feature that lets you put a "Post-It" message attached to the name. Someone seems to have written in to ask a couple of years ago if she was a person he'd known a few decades ago, so I dropped him a line to say she wasn't.

They also have a feature that on some names gives "(V)=(Verified) Report verified with a family member or someone acting on behalf of a family member" or "(P)=(Proof) Death Certificate Observed." Mom has a verification indication, which I assume was handled through the executor of the estate.

I checked using the one at genealogy.com, run by Family Tree Maker.
http://familytreemaker.genealogy.com/fto_ssdisearch.html?PID=1392942&AID=1027758&priority=5000124&Welcome=1071953776

I got 115 entries for that name. When I selected for state of death, it only brought up two names, neither of which were hers. When I typed in name and birth year I got 12 entries, none of which were her. State and last zip code with her name brought nothing.

Obit Central has an SSDI search using the ancestry.com database. http://www.obitcentral.com/obitsearch/ssdi.htm
I got 188 entries for just first and last names, adding birth year brought her up with 4 others, no matches for name and state.

These were the three SSDI indexes I've used at various times over the years and bookmarked, there may be more out there. Note the problems in getting consistent results for a known death. I have to say I don't remember getting problems with having a relative not show up when I've looked them up before.

[Ferry Fey]

32. Verification issues

The verification listing on the Rootsweb SSDI does not, of course, necessarily mean anything conclusive. It means someone saw some paperwork of the sort that under normal circumstances would not be questioned.

If there was an assumption of death with an inconclusive or poor chain of evidence, that paperwork was in order would be a circular argument. Depends on what your standards of proof are.

[MrSammo1]

35. Most people go by..........

their real names.

911 researchers have been tried to contact the families of the supposed passengers with little to no success.

Considering the lack of physical evidence of at least two of the jets, my theory makes sense.

[Ferry Fey]

38. Then corroborate claims that people used unfindable variant names

Most of the people listed as being on the airplanes were described as travelling on business, or otherwise involved with activities where the average person would not be using nicknames to sign in. Background articles on them were published, with pictures, and I don't recall any comments at the time that anyone in the press was provisional in their assigning a bio to the names on the list (including, alas, the hijackers).

DoYouEverWonder, if you think your theory has some merit, you'd have to show us some examples of published bios of 911 victims giving legal names that differ enough from those they are listed as on the airline lists so as to not make them findable on the SSDI lists.

When fact-checking the SSDI lists against the passenger lists(and I think my examples above have shown the neccesity of checking multiple SSDI databases) it might be useful to also check the Mormon genealogical search databases at

http://www.familysearch.org/ENG/Search/frameset_search.asp . They pull up close variants automatically. Looking for Maryanne Smith will bring up Marie Ana Smythe.

The National Archives & Records Administration might also be a good resource, especially if you go to a regional branch. I know that one of the officials in the New England NARA center at Pittsfield often is on public radio discussing genealogy questions, and indicates that her staff are happy to help people who come in to research. http://www.archives.gov/

The Social Security website says that they don't give out the death information, you can only get the lists from "commercial entities."

Q9: What information is available from Social Security records to help in genealogical research?

A: You might want to start by checking out the Social Security Death Index which is available online from a variety of commercial services (usually the search is free). The Death Index contains a listing of persons who had a Social Security number, who are deceased, and whose death was reported to the Social Security Administration. (The information in the Death Index for people who died prior to 1962 is sketchy since SSA's death information was not automated before that date. Death information for persons who died before 1962 is generally only in the Death Index if the death was actually reported to SSA after 1962, even though the death occurred prior to that year.)

If you find a person in the Death Index you will learn the date of birth and Social Security Number for that person. (The Social Security Death Index is not published by SSA for public use, but is made available by commercial entities using information from SSA records. We do not offer support of these commercial products nor can we answer questions about the material in the Death Index.)

Other records potentially available from SSA include the Application for a Social Security Number (form SS-5). To obtain any information from SSA you will need to file a Freedom of Information Act (FOIA) request.
http://www.ssa.gov/history/hfaq.html

I'm a bit confused as to why Vincent Sammartino says "The Social Security Death Index (SSDI) (Social Security Death Index) is a privately-owned website that is not affiliated with Social Security. It boasts an accuracy rate of about 83% (e-mail them any questions you may have)." He links the http://www.socialsecurity.gov/ , which I've just quoted as saying that they don't have that info for you, and don't answer questions.

Vincent, would you like to comment on that observation?

[Ferry Fey]

39. Contacting families of supposed passengers

I have my own concerns about how valid the information we have been given about the airline passenger lists is.

But without meticulous documentation and transparency about what steps have been done to research this, I just can't take "911 researchers have been tried to contact the families of the supposed passengers with little to no success" on faith.

Who tried?

When?

How?

What did they say?

What results did they get?

I've lost a significant member of my family in the past 5 years, and that's painful enough without having my grief in the context and spotlight of a national trauma as survivors of 911 deaths are.

If some guy with the same social skills I see on most political forums were to contact me with the same tact and sensitivity I'm used to seeing from online researchers, I'd be most likely to tell him to go fuck himself.

If relatives of those on airline lists did that to strangers calling out of the blue, it may or may not mean that there is something fishy. But there is no way we can take that kind of response as being telling of some deeper truth. We've got to find some other way to get at the information.

[MissWaverly]

47. true, but I found an interesting fact out lately

I went to the PA website to get a copy of my mother's birth certificate for genealogy studies,
guess who now handles the death records and birth records in PA. Our old pals at Choicepoint
that's who. I wonder how many other states vital records have been privatized.

[John Q. Citizen]

50. That's down right depressing! This privatization crap has got to stop, n/t

[MissWaverly]

56. yes, I do not think a private contractor should do this

and what safeguards do we have about the security of this, what if someone's family dies of
Aids, who is going to insure that is kept confidential? Cause of death is on the death certificate.

[Andre II]

34. Very interesting finding!

Great work, Woody Box!
Anybody who4se able to come up with an explanation??

[MellowOne]

41. Someone posted here awhile ago

That the two planes heading for NYC were flying out over the Atlantic Ocean when the beeps on the radar screen disappeared. This explains to me why the planes that hit the towers were flown so accurately into their target by such amateur pilots.

[Andre II]

42. How come

nobody tries to refute the presence of two planes being considered as UA 93?

[Andre II]

43. Any ideas

anybody?

[greyl]

44. Yeah, read the thread. nt

[Andre II]

45. Did read the thread

And where is the explaination to the OP??

[savemefromdumbya]

46. what were the fighter planes chasing 60 miles out into the Atlantic?

(see 911 Commission report

[sabbat hunter]

48. its called standard operating procedure

the pilots were trained to look out to sea for attacking/hijacked aircraft. not from domestic flights that just took off.

[savemefromdumbya]

49. yes well, they were supposed to be in NYC not in the ocean!

[Woody Box]

51. They were playing their part in a military exercise

Was it Vigilant Guardian? Vigilant Warrior? Amalgam Virgo? Global Guardian? I don't know.

But what I do know that the fighters from Langley were in fact the 119th Fighter Wing of the North Dakota National Guard, nicknamed the "Happy Hooligans". They were stationed at Langley AFB for two weeks only - exactly when "Vigilant Guardian" took place (Source: Jere Longman, "Among the heroes").

The mission crew commander ordered them to go to the Baltimore area immediately, but someone changed the order and told them to go east over the Atlantic. As one of the pilots said: "I'm thinking cruise missile threat from the sea." (Source: 9/11 commission Report). Obviously, they were told by their wargame master to shoot down a cruise missile that was coming from the East.

[Sinti]

52. Who changed the order? Do you know? Did they ask? n/t

[Woody Box]

54. They got orders from different superiors

This is what they told Jere Longman. This is the reason for their strange trip to the Atlantic.

I don't know the wargame master who changed the order. Maybe Cheney? What do you think?

[Sinti]

57. I couldn't tell you, but that's pretty important info, IMO.

The guy who sent them out to the Atlantic should be scrubbing latrines for many years, in Leavenworth. That info may be findable, however. I'll have a look, can't make any promises, though. It should be known, but the Omission Commission didn't seem to ask the "hard" questions of anyone, if you know what I mean. They seemed to be set up to not place blame on anyone in particular, and say it was the system that was broken.

[Woody Box]

60. If you are a bit patient...

I'll type in the relevant section of Longman's book here in this thread (won't violate the DU copyright rules). But not now.

You are right about the Commission's non-responsibility strategy, IMO.

[savemefromdumbya]

53. was it the Happy Hooligans that brought down Flight 93 or not

did they?

[Woody Box]

55. No, not possible

At the time UA 93 was (allegedly) shot down - 10:03 -, the Happy Hooligans were flying a CAP (Combat Air Patrol) over Washington. This is confirmed by many, many sources.

The story that one of the Hooligans, Rick Gibbney, shot down UA 93 is debunked. Gibbney was not even in Langley.

[savemefromdumbya]

58. OK thanks although

was flight 93 actually shot down?

[Woody Box]

59. I don't think so

The crash site is too atypical. No debris, no bodies, no nothing.

[Name removed]

61. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Lithos]

62. 911Review.org is not allowed for use on DU

It freely reposts material from hate sites.

Lithos
DU Moderator

Note: This is not the same as 911Review.com

[rman]

63. Could you point out any of that hate site material on 911review.org?

I don't seem to be able to find any.

[Lithos]

64. Look to their WGET section

You will find full copies of the American Free Press, David Irving's site, WRH as well as a few others.

L-