These crash sites might be comparable to UA 93

[Andre II]

The Tamron crash:

The aircraft departed Bucharest-Otopeni runway 08R at 9:08am local time for a flight to Brussels. At 9:11, climbing through 4500ft, the Airbus began to descend again and finally entered a steep dive (80° nose-down) before crashing into a field. While climbing through 2000ft at 189 knots, the crew retracted flaps. At that time the auto throttles (on 'climb' mode) should have reduced power to the pre-determined climb setting on both engines. But the right power lever (no.2 engine) remained in takeoff power setting. It took the no.1 power lever 42 seconds to move to idle power. During these 42 seconds an asymmetric thrust situation developed. The aircraft by then had passed the 'OTR' VOR beacon and the crew had, according to SID procedures, begun a 25° left turn onto a 327° heading for the Strejnic 'STJ' VOR/DME beacon. Due to the thrust asymmetry, the nose-up pitch of 18° decreased to 0°. The aircraft rolled through 170° laterally and finally crashed into an open field and exploded on impact. The accident was likely caused bya lack of crew response to an extreme nose-down attitude. The investigation committee concluded that the Captain was either incapacitated or absent from his seat, because he had not said anything while the critical situation was developing. Just before impact the First Officer expressed his concern about the situation (either the Captain's condition or the aircraft's attitude) and attempted a recovery.
http://www.airdisaster.com/photos/yr-lcc/photo.shtml


And guess what: It looks like a crash site!




And now go back and have a look at first hand descriptions and photos of the crash site of UA 93!

And thanks to jschurchin:
The USAir crash in Sep 1994

The plane descended fast and impacted the ground nose first at 261 knots in an 80° nose down, 60° left bank attitude and with significant sideslip.
http://www.airdisaster.com/cgi-bin/view_details.cgi?date=09081994®=N513AU&airline=USAir

And again it looks like a crash site:

[MercutioATC]

1. Both slow speed. The first was also low-altitude.

(the second link just links to the AirDisaster main page).


Why would these crashes be similar to UAL93?

[jschurchin]

2. Tell you what....

give us all the link to the NTSB or FBI official report describing the crash of Flight 93 and then we can discuss the differences.

[MercutioATC]

3. Is there one?

Most crashes don't have the NTSB report online. Certainly most FBI reports aren't online.

[jschurchin]

4. Actually No there is not, but..........

here is the link to what they are willing to say.
http://www.ntsb.gov/ntsb/Response2.asp

It is not much, which is very frustating.

[MercutioATC]

7. Then it's kind of an impossibility...

The NTSB states that the investigation is under the jurisdiction of the FBI and the FBI doesn't publish its reports (that I know of). I'm going to have a hard time complying with your request.

[stickdog]

12. What a surprise!

Whoops, the FBI never investigated the cause of the plane crash!

Whoops, the data on the Flight 93's flight data recorder will never be released to the public!

Whoops, look over there!

[MercutioATC]

14. The FBI releases most of their reports on the internet?

That's news to me.

You don't know that the FBI didn't investigate the crash. In fact, the fact that the data isn't being released ny the NTSB because the FBI handled the investigation sort of refutes that idea. You just know that the FBI isn't sharing that data with you. Most of the time, they don't. That's not unusual.

[stickdog]

20. The FBI can't do the NTSB's investigatory job and you know.

The NTSB did a report on all of these flights; it was referenced many times in the 9/11 Commission's report. However, it's been held back from the public. Why?

[MercutioATC]

21. Because the FBI was in charge of the investigation.

It says so right on the NTSB website.

???

[stickdog]

22. Why has the NTSB's report been withheld ftom the public.

This is an unprecedented development in a major aviation disaster. Once Zacharias Moussaoui is sentenced, what will be the rationale for withholding this report from the public?

What has ever been the rationale for withholding Flight 93's flight data recorder reading from the public?

[jschurchin]

23. The NTSB did their.......

investigation under the auspices of the FBI and delivered their report to them. Honestly stickdog, I don't think that report will EVER see the light of day. And to say it is frustrating, is a huge understatement. All that anyone can rely on is newspaper report's, eyewitness testimony and photograph's, these are all open to interpretation which make them utterly useless as evidence.

We need the evidence the authority's are holding to find the real perpetrator's of these crimes and bring them to justice.

[MercutioATC]

25. Because it's the FBI's investigation...says so right on the NTSB site.

Why do you have a problem comprehending this?

[stickdog]

26. The FBI has no REASON for withholding this information from the public.

Why do you have a problem comprehending this?

[jschurchin]

24. You would be surprised....

at the report's the FBI released. Roberto Clemente(d.1973), Bonnie&Clyde, report released in 2000, Clyde Tolson(SHOCKER) in 2001. It is unbelievable some of the stupid shit they make accessable, but if it is important, fuggetaboutit. Very Frustating.

[MercutioATC]

27. Bonnie and Clyde in 2000???

Sorta makes my point.

[Andre II]

5. Altitude

First the link for the second crash:
http://www.airdisaster.com/cgi-bin/view_details.cgi?date=09081994®=N513AU&airline=USAir


If you consider the fist crash low altitude: Please provide the altitude that UA 93 had before doing its nose-dive.

And talking of speed: Please remember that the first estimations of UA 93's speed were similar to the actual speeds for these flights.

[MercutioATC]

6. My point is that both of your aircraft were at low altitude and low speed.

They didn't have time to pick up speed in the descent.

UAL93 was at high speed already (reports vary, but most place it at roughly 500 knots).

[jschurchin]

8. Merc, have you talked to any of the controllers.......

at Pittsburgh, and would they be able to give you some idea of the aircraft's speed. I understand the transponder was off, but talking to a controller friend of mine he assured me the return would still be there. Could they not plot the object and determine a course and speed?

[MercutioATC]

9. Actually, Pittsburgh had nothing to do with it.

UAL93 crashed well outside Pittsburgh Approach's airspace. However, it crashed in MY airspace.

Your friend is correct in that you can usually plot speed by the distance between returns. The problem with Center radar for determining things like this is that it's a radar mosaic system that only updates every 12 seconds. That, compounded with the lack of transponder data, makes speed in a turn extremely difficult to gauge. In addition, our radar coverage below 4000 feet in that general vicinity is spotty (terrain issues).

[jschurchin]

10. Thanks, I was just...

curious. I was an Operations Specialist in the Navy, our job was the Surface and air picture. Back in dinasour days we had a system called NTDS where we entered computer generated symbols on the returns to track them. Of course back then you had to constantly adjust the speed of the symbol or the symbol would "run away" from the return.
Anyway, good info, Thnx

[MercutioATC]

18. Our computers do that now, but it's the same principle.

...just a little more advanced.

[Andre II]

11. Speed

Interestingly for six month UA 93 was believed to have crashed with a COMPLETELY different speed:
"It slammed into the ground at a speed law enforcement authorities said might have approached 300 mph"
http://www.cooperativeresearch.org/timeline/2001/nyt091401.html
"Flight 93 slammed into the earth nose-first at over 200 mph, according to estimates by the National Transportation Safety Board and other experts."
http://www.cooperativeresearch.org/timeline/2001/delawarenewsjournal091601.html

Strange, ain't it that they all got it SO wrong again .....

Btw: My question is very crucial for determing if UA 93 can have caused this crater:
At what altitude (approximately) did UA 93 begin its nosedive?

[stickdog]

13. Too bad not even the victims' families can examine the data from

Flight 93's intact flight data recorder, isn't it?

[MercutioATC]

15. It all depends on which reports you read. They differ dramatically.

The flight data recorder would be the only reliable source for the data, assuming it wasn't damaged too severely by the crash.

[Andre II]

16. Funny

that the NTSB can get things SOOOOOOOO wrong.
And what was the approximate altitude at which the plane did its nosedive? Or at what approximate angle did the plane crash?

[MercutioATC]

17. How do you know that they got it wrong?

Have you seen a report that I haven't?

[spooked911]

19. US93 was also low altitude and let's say UA93 was going twice as fast

does that really mean the difference between having visible debris on the ground and having the plane disintegrate into teeny tiny pieces?

Heck, let's say UA93 was going three times as fast.

Is that going to account for the plane essentially disappearing?

Let's use some common sense here.