I've gone MIHOP, and the one person I discussed it with thinks I'm crazy

[Maven]

And yet, I feel like I've GAINED some sanity.

Just looking at the footage itself, with some distance from the horror of the event itself, it almost seems OBVIOUS. Those buildings could not have suddenly gone into freefall, collapsing like an accordion, from the impacts of a single jet each.

That's the sick part, to me, anyway--that if you just LOOK at what happened, it can't POSSIBLY have happened the way we're supposed to believe.

It almost seems like common sense.

I expect I'll be losing a few more friends over this in the short run.

[petgoat]

1. Is it really worth losing friends over?

What's the difference, really?

I like the way David Kubaik put it:

"LIHOP was treason, MIHOP was treason, so we really didn't care if we hung the bastards with a six or
twelve foot rope as long as all the relevant feet twitched in the air."

[Maven]

3. I like the quote, but

LIHOP and MIHOP involve totally different scenarios and different ways at arriving at the truth. Whereas LIHOP theories assume that the truth lies in the relationship between the "attackers" and the government, MIHOP demands a full accounting of the event itself. Luckily for us, the more abhorrent scenario (MIHOP) is ultimately the more demonstrable; it can be proven by evidence external to the human players whose best interests dictate a cover-up.

Since MIHOP is, I believe, the true fact pattern, why waste whatever credibility our credentialed allies have by "proving" an ultimately false theory? The incredulity of the masses is what these criminals depend on, and BOTH LIHOP and MIHOP are beyond the realm of their belief at this point. The only difference is, there is a wealth of facts supporting the latter, and not the former. Hence the Scholars for 9/11 Truth PR.

Maybe when I said "lose friends" I was exaggerating. But I can certainly see risking some credibility with people who formerly respected your opinions.

[petgoat]

6. I don't see LIHOP as beyond belief.

Passive aggression (and the temptation to indulge in it) is a part of
life. The circumstantial case practically ptoves itself: motive, means,
and opportunity are obvious.

It's easy to imagine that the Bushites knew something was coming, they
thought they could handle it, it turned out to be bigger than they
thought, and now they're covering up their incompetence.

Once your eyes are opened to that and you look closer at the facts, it
becomes clear that the Bushites knew more about the alleged hijackers
than is commonly believed, and you see the campaign of obstruction of
anti-terrorist investigations, and a degree of complicity that begins
to blur the line between LIHOP and MIHOP.

For instance, it's quite possible that the Bushites knew that real al
Qaeda hijackers intended to fly aircraft into the WTC. Of course they
would never succeed unless NEADS was completely disrupted, and the towers
needed a little explosive help to bring them down. So is that LIHOP or
MIHOP?

I don't see how you'll ever prove MIHOP beyond a reasonable doubt unless
witnesses come forward.

[dailykoff]

11. The scale and scope of the disinformation campaign

pretty much put LIHOP beyond belief. Would they really need to set up an entire department (Cherthoff's DHS) to funnel bribes and hush money, not to mention the electronic surveillance and whatever else they're illegally doing, if the original alibi held water?

[Beam Me Up]

12. When does "incompetence" stop being an excuse for treason?

"Incompetence" would be a situation where one failed at some intended aim. But have they failed at their aims? We know, for example, that the Bush administration was determined to militarily engage Iraq PRIOR to 9/11. I believe this is now solidly established from credible sources. Some were determined to build a pipeline across Afghanistan, too. From the point of view of establishing a bloodthirsty foreign policy, this administration, I would say, has been extraordinarily successful. One could say the same domestically as well, provided one understand that their aim has nothing to do with either empowering, enriching or protecting the American working or middle class, much less the constitution. One could argue that this "incompetence" would be political suicide but the past three election cycles would beg the question further.

I'm sorry, I don't see anything the least bit "incompetent" about this cabal. They are literally getting away with Murder and Grand Larceney in broad daylight. That isn't "incompetent" -- CRIMINAL, yes, but not "incompetent."

I like Mike Ruppert's one liner: "9/11 was not an intelligence failure, it was an intelligence success."

Still is.

[stickdog]

23. Just when does "incompetence" stop being a credible excuse?

Florida's 2000 "Felonious" Voter Rolls: They Knew It or They Blew It.
Able Danger: They Knew It or They Blew It.
Zacharias Moussaoui: They Knew It or They Blew It.
9/11: They Knew It or They Blew It.
Flight 93: They Knew it or They Blew It.
The Bin Laden Family's 9/12-9/14 Exit Flights: They Knew It or They Blew It.
The WTC Asbestos/Heavy Metal Cover Up: They Knew It or They Blew It.
Uncaught Anthrax Murderer: They Knew It or They Blew It.
The Patriot Act's Excesses: They Knew It or They Blew It.
Total Information Awareness: They Knew It or They Blew It.
The CAPPS II Terrorist-Helping "No Fly" List: They Knew It or They Blew It.
Poindexter's Assassination "Futures" Market: They Knew It or They Blew It.
Fraud-o-Matic Voting Machines: They Knew It or They Blew It.
Osama's Tora Bora Escape: They Knew It or They Blew It.
US & Iraqi Depleted Uranium Exposure: They Knew it or They Blew it.
No Iraqi Yellowcake: They Knew It or They Blew It.
No Other Iraqi WMDs: They Knew It or They Blew It.
Curveball vs. Hussein's Foreign Minister: They Knew It or They Blew It.
Cheney's Millions of Profit in Halliburton Stock Options: They Knew It or They Blew It.
Poppy Bush's Carlyle Group War Profiteering: They Knew It or They Blew It.
Outing CIA Agent Valerie Plame: They Knew It or They Blew It.
The 9/11 Omission: They Knew It or They Blew It.
Ignoring the 9/11 Omission's Recommendations: They Knew It or They Blew It.
Iraqi Precious Historic Artifact Looting: They Knew It or They Blew It.
Iraq UN Bombing: They Knew It or They Blew It.
Nick Berg's Beheading: They Knew It or They Blew It.
Medicare PharmCorp Plundering: They Knew It or They Blew It.
US's Biggest Export = Jobs: They Knew It or They Blew It.
Enron (& other corporate insider) Scams: They Knew It or They Blew It.
Hedge/Mutual Fund Scams: They Knew It or They Blew It.
Energy Policy Written By Enron, et al: They Knew It or They Blew It.
Record Federal Government Growth: They Knew It or They Blew It.
Homeland Security Pork Barrel: They Knew It or They Blew It
False Unemployment Data: They Knew It or They Blew It.
Gitmo Abuses: They Knew It or They Blew It.
"Iraqi Oil Will Pay For War": They Knew It or They Blew It.
"Bring It On": They Knew It or They Blew It.
Republican Staffers Stealing 1000s of Confidential Memos From Dem Computers: They Knew It or They Blew It.
Cutting Veterans Benefits: They Knew It or They Blew It.
Destroying Reservists' Morale and Retainment Percentage: They Knew It or They Blew It.
Iraqi Prison Torture: They Knew It or They Blew It.
Iraqi Oil Fund Payola-rama: They Knew It or They Blew It.
Iraqi Reporter Murders: They Knew It or They Blew It.
$330,000 a Month to Chalabi: They Knew It or They Blew It.
Where's Osama?: They Knew It or They Blew It.
Border Insecurity: They Knew It or They Blew It.
IRS Auditing Only Anti-Bush Churches: They Knew It or They Blew It.
Paid For & Planted Iraqi "News Reports": They Knew It or They Blew It.
HHS Scully Scandal: They Knew It or They Blew It.
Bush's Flag Desecration: He Knew It or He Blew It.
US Soldier Body & Vehicle Armor Scandals: They Knew It or They Blew It.
EPA's Child Mercury Danger Suppression: They Knew It or They Blew It.
EPA Letting Industries Write Own Regulations: They Knew It or They Blew It.
"No Global Warming" Pseudoscience: They Knew It or They Blew It.
Refusal To Release Documents to Congress, Courts or 9/11 Commission: They Knew It or They Blew It.
Wildly Misunderestimated Iraq War & Medicare Bill Costs: They Knew It or They Blew It.
Four Rounds of Surplus then Budget Busting Tax Breaks For Rich People & Corporations: They Knew It or They Blew It.
Countless Bullshit Terra Alerts: They Knew It or They Blew It.
Gannongate: They Knew It or They Blew It.
Arrests For Wearing Anti-Bush Shirts: They Knew It or They Blew It.
Afghan Opium Production Now Through The Roof: They Knew It or They Blew It.
Wage Stagnation: They Knew It or They Blew It.
Bankruptcy "Reform" Bill: They Knew It or They Blew It.
Dollar Losing Value: They Knew It or They Blew It.
Rummy's Avian Flu Scare-mongering Profiteering: They Knew It or They Blew It.
Florida's 2004 Race-based Voter Purge "Mistake": They Knew It or They Blew It.
Pre-Election Florida FEMA Payola Bribe-o-rama: They Knew It or They Blew It.
Ohio Coingate: They Knew It or They Blew It.
Medicare Insurance Boondoggle Debacle: They Knew It or They Blew It.
Jack Abramoff's Pay to Play Felonies: They Knew It or They Blew It.
No Big Oil Public Land Royalties: They Knew It or They Blew It.
Iraqi Mosque Bombings: They Knew It or They Blew It.
Zacharias Moussaoui's Trial: They Knew It or They Blew It.

Just how often are you willing to accept limitless incompetence as an excuse without getting just a tad suspicious?

Florida White Collar Vote Counting Riot: They Staged It.
Supreme Court Decision: Supremely Bad Law
Reclassification of Most of Reagan's & Bush I's Papers (which had been scheduled to be released): They Railroaded It.
Gutting the Freedom of Information Act: They Railroaded It.
Fighter Jets Sold to Pakistan on a Saturday: They Railroaded It.
First Amendment Zones: They Railroaded It.
Gutting Pollution Regulations: They Railroaded It.
Dissing the Kyoto Treaty: They Railroaded It.
Enemy Combatant Legal Limbo: They Railroaded It.
Torture Rendition: They Railroaded It.
The "Dirty Bomber" vs. the 9/11 Families For 9/11 Truth Gathering CSPAN Misdirection: They Staged It.
The California "Energy Crisis": They Staged, Gamed, Bilked and Arnied it.
Saddam Statue Celebration: They Staged It.
Mission Accomplished: They Staged It.
The Gropinator Recall: They Staged It.
The Plastic Turkey Thanksgiving Drop: They Staged It.
Saving Private Lynch: They Staged It.
Halliburton Handouts: They Bilked It.
Gas Gouging: They Bilked It.
Appointing Negroponte and Bolton: They Railroaded Them In.
Pat Tillman's Death: They Lied About Him and His Death, Then Covered It Up.
The 2004 Election: They Rigged It.
Illegal Unwarranted Domestic Wiretapping: They Hid It & Lied About It, Then Screamed It Was Legal Anyway.
Downing Street Memos: They Knew It AND They Blew It.
Terry Schiavo: They Knew It AND They Blew It.
Cindy Sheehan: They Knew It AND They Blew It.
Hurricane Katrina: They Knew It AND They Blew It.
UAE Port Scandal: They Knew It AND They Blew It.

Once again, I ask, why anyone should believe anything these guys say?

[we can do it]

4. They Really Aren't Friends If They Want To Control Your Thoughts

What's wrong with a healthy exchange of ideas. I know its a bit hard to swallow, especially if you've only been exposed to the MSM, but we all got here one step at a time, whether it be the election fraud, the cronyism, the spying, the CIA leaks.......


:pals:

[jschurchin]

2. You may lose some...

friends, who do not understand, but you will gain some who know exactly what you are feeling.

[spooked911]

5. Don't worry about it. The truth is liberating. If they think you are

crazy, they couldn't have been much of a friend.

[WoodrowFan]

7. get used to it

get used to it, at least from your friends with common sense.

bye bye.

[Bouvet_Island]

8. This thread shows something really interesting.

It is not a good observation that it depends on the stupidity of the masses. At least my personal MIHOP scenario, from what I have read of the American discourse it is clearly a well placed bet that the US intellectuals will be impotent facing this. There is no way to anchor it in american-ness, the process of discovering this in itself will - and given a mihop scenario calculated at that - put you at odds with normal society, making the advocates of this theories do the best work of discrediting them.

At the core of this is the idea of naming the perpetrators, for which there are no proof but indication. I mean I could convince half of the crowd here that the russians did it by introducing just a few fabricated facts, the motive then would be the US sinking of their flagship the Kursk and so the proof of a coverup would loose its momentum so to say. People are generally putting focus on the less solid parts of the proof making their case, which is an ego trip but not effective communication. They want to discover catch the thief themselves so to say instead of being the guy that goes around the neighbourhood helping old ladies install a good lock and putting up a sign warning of pickpockets.

This is also an extremely un-useful step, at like 30% of the population disbelieving the official reports in their hearts, just truly despising the 9/11 commission and demanding answers to questions that doesn't even implicate mihop, it'd start useful processes while asking government to indict itself have a tendency to not work very well.

Simple would serve you a lot better and sticking to stuff that you really know and can verify yourself like witness reports of explosions, the problems around WTC7 and the problems in the 9/11 report with the funding of the whole thing as well as the missing Bin Ladin. All these are stuff that you can inject into the public without burning bridges, because that is obviously what you need, as many bridges as possible. That is like your main weapon, for every good - and I mean of the highest possible quality - fact you can spread without making people think you are crazy, it is a nail in their chest because it will make people realize when they experience being lied to by your opponents.

The stories about the gold in wtc, reported in wt7.net, the loose change documentary and others. I mean it is a really interesting little piece of information, where did it really go? Super terrorists got it? It is something people can understand. And so what do the guy in Loose change do? He estimate it based on rumor! He readily acknowledges that he is serving half cooked hearsay from the internet, for people to base choices on that can change your life and if you are right at them cost you more than a few friends ... What do you expect of the administration if it looks like they would be exposed? They will play along? Believing that they slightly went beyond their mandate in slaugthering 3000 innocents like cattle, do you believe they respect the law of electronic surveillance? I am pretty sure we have their ears, the lot of the internet buzz on this aint even such a lot of Mb. Based on all distant and recent history, witch hunts will follow if this movement gains traction so it might not be the brightest idea to wave that flag so high and in the face of people that don't much appreciate it in the first place. Rather make an example that you don't have to be insane to doubt the official version, that you don't know all about this and there might be other opinions, and be honest about not knowing the end of the story although some suspicious facts. Having researched 9/11, haven't you been shown to be horribly wrong about certain facts at times?

If you are right you americans are headed for some times where you will need those friends, I would sortof agree with them that it is an insane position to sacrifice them for a temporary disagreement. Sounds like you are not really respecting either your own opinion or facts, or theirs.

Getting good information about this issue you have to sort through loads of crap. For them to be very skeptical is a good sign and for you to show them not to be skeptical of your own sources is a provocation when discussing such a serious topic with them. It is immature, its like a child that don't understand anything about consequences.

Spooked, didn't you try to prove your point scientifically by means of dropping a brick on a model made out of fence wire ... Are you recieving my signal ... ?

[dchill]

9. If you think you're Harvey Korman...

or even if you really are Harvey Korman, then I'd say chances are good that you ARE crazy.

Seriously, I totally agree with you. Especially that: "Those buildings could not have suddenly gone into freefall, collapsing like an accordion, from the impacts of a single jet each." - Actually WTC7 didn't even need a jet impact. Amazing, just amazing what some will believe just to make everything right in their minds. And to keep believing that all the Bushies are really nice people!

[file83]

10. On the morning of 9/11, we ALL felt something was not right when

we saw the south tower fall.
And then the north tower fall.
And then WTC 7 fall.
And the Pentagon was hit.

Something wasn't clicking. It was horrible, but it didn't make sense. There is a reason for that feeling: gut instinct. Our collective inner voice that can identify a false story, a missing piece in the causal chain of events.

In short, we know when someone is trying to scam us. Now, after careful, close, repeated examination, we know the laws of physics is on our side. The truth will always rise to the surface.

They MIHOP. It's so obvious once you start looking at all the events that happened in this country and around the world afterwards. Through the lens of MIHOP, all the details begin to fall into place of why EVERYTHING seemed to go wrong that day. So many things went impossibly wrong.

We know the truth. Not the whole truth - that may never be possible. But we know enough and that leads to even more questions that must be answered. But that can only happen if others come forward.

We just need to spread the knowledge, because the people's instincts are there. Just not all of us trust ourselves enough to search out the truth without a little encouragement.

You are on the right path.

[myzenthing]

17. Exactly!

An excellent post! I remember thinking on 9/11 that "this is just like a disaster movie".

The whole thing just didn't make any sense. It was as if it was orchestrated for maximum shock value and nothing else. I distinctly remember watching WTC 7 fall on live TV and thinking "WTF??". Of course, I was in shock like everyone else so I couldn't really process all the information I was receiving.

It does seem as though some people are beginning to wake up, or at least to question. As you said, we need to encourage them and help spread what we know.

[file83]

19. Welcome to the DU!!!

:hi:

Thanks for the compliment too!

[myzenthing]

22. Thanks for the welcome...

...I'm happy to be here! :-)

[Quakerfriend]

13. Interesting you should write about this.

I, too, mentioned it during a party in October 05. I got a wide-eyed look.

I mentioned it to this same person just last week, and they opened the floor for discussion.

It's just so UNAMERICAN that it's hard to fathom. But, once you've let out a few facts it becomes a discussion.

[Maven]

14. Exactly.

Plus, most people by this point think of Bushco as "incompetent" (which is generally true) without realizing that most of the disasters they've precipitated up to this point have been intentional. Makes discussion of such a planned atrocity even more difficult.

Edit: I see Beam Me Up basically expressed the same idea. Sorry for the repeat.

[rman]

21. It's unamerican alright,

i think the hard part is that it reveals americans (and not just americans) have been walking around with their pants down for at least a couple of decades, which allowed certain unamerican individuals to pull this off this and a couple of other 'acts of sabotage'.
It's really hard to admit reality is completely different then what we've always taken for granted.

[HamdenRice]

15. Welcome to the world of sanity BUT ...

try not to focus too much on CD of the towers. I say that because of a post I once read by Minstrel Boy who said that once a theory depends on technical details, then there will always be two sides to debate the issue -- as in, those are squibs; not those are compressed air venting; the fire was x degrees; not the fire was 2x degrees; and on and on forever.

Images of the collapse and CD theory brought me to the MIHOP position, but I now think it is, oddly, not that important. There is so much abundant evidence of MIHOP in the mainstream media concerning movements of money, options, and intelligence personnel, and connections between the perpetrators and the government; and the bizarre mischaracterizations of the hijackers and their behavior that you can prove MIHOP without getting bogged down in the technical, where there will always be "engineers" spreading disinformation and confusion.

[Bushwick Bill]

16. I agree.

When introducing someone to the topic, I think it's best to hit on other aspects like Indira Singh/Sibel Edmonds, the put options, General Ahmad, the wargames, the Hanjour miracle, etc. If you do talk about physical issues at first, just point to WTC 7 pics. Although many will disagree, I think it's best to talk about the towers, Pentagon, and Flight 93 last, because those turn into pissing contests over whose experts should be believed. And just point them to all of the books being written on the subject.

[libertypirate]

18. I read a quote that made a too much sense to ignore...

If they let it happen they made it happen...

It doesn't matter if the facilitated it since giving the opportunity in the end had the same result as doing it themselves.

[file83]

20. Good point. To suggest "LIHOP" is to split hairs. If I knew

someone was going to kill my father and I had the ability to stop it, but I didn't, then I effectively made my father die. Especially if I BENEFITTED from his murder.

LIHOP is MIHOP. Agreed.