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Why there were NO BOMBS planted at the WTC.

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benburch Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-23-06 12:08 AM
Original message
Why there were NO BOMBS planted at the WTC.
Edited on Thu Feb-23-06 12:47 AM by benburch
I believe that WTC towers 1, 2 and 7 fell because towers 1 and 2 were hit by airliners on 9/11,
and that there were no explosives planted in any of those buildings.

I know this is a radical statement, and is going to take some explaining, so please bear with me.

The first thing you need to understand is Gravitational Potential Energy.

As you raise a mass against gravity, you expend energy. This energy is not lost as heat, but
gets stored in the item raised in the form of gravitational potential energy. If you allow the
mass to fall, you get back this energy first in the form of velocity and then, at the point of
impact with the ground, as mechanical energy that will attempt to deform and heat the body and
deform and heat the ground it strikes. The exception is a fully elastic collision, when both the
body and the ground are strong enough to resist this deformation, and the body bounces.


The Mass of the structure of each #1 and #2 WTC is given at approximately 500000 tons.

This is one Billion Pounds of mass.

The weight of the contents is usually given as equal in weight to the structure itself, for
a total weight as occupied on 9/11 as two Billion Pounds, roughly 900 million kilograms.

The Height of each tower is 411 meters.

Now, only a small amount of mass is at the top, and mass can be assumed to roughly be distributed
equally throughout, so for calculating the gravitational potential energy, we will use half of this
height, 200 meters.

The formula is;

PE-subG in joules = weight * G (9.8 m/s/s) * height.

For 900 million kilograms, and 200 meters, this is 1,764,000,000,000 Joules.

Big number! One Point Eight Trillion Joules.

Now a one kiloton atom bomb yields 4,000,000,000,000 Joules of energy.

So the mass of one tower of the WTC falling was the equivalent of a half-kiloton atom bomb.

And two of them fell.

Two half-kiloton atom bombs went off in Manhattan on 9/11!

This is sufficient to explain why, once they started to fall, they kept falling, and why they also
destroyed Building 7 and why the debris in the pit were so very hot initially.

No bombs are required whatsoever.

Building 7 was hit by high velocity ejecta from the two collapse events, and also by two pulses of
superheated air laden with debris; In effect two synthetic pyroclastic pulses, by analogy with the
remarkably similar effect that occurs in some volcanic eruptions. This is sufficient to have
damaged building #7 so badly that it later fell.

Now, what started the collapse of each tower?

When the aircraft hit each building, they did considerable damage to the load-bearing walls on the
exterior of the building, and their fuel burned along with the contents of the structure (a
considerable source of fuel) and eventually weakened the entire structure enough to partially fail,
and to sag just a bit. Didn't have to be much... An inch or two. But that movement was of the
entire top-weight of the building above the fire floors. And once that mass started moving, it
had considerable inertia due to giving back its gravitational potential energy. Being the highest
part of the building, it of course has the highest proportion of this energy which we dealt with
in an averaged manner, above.

Now, had the floors this sagging mass fell onto been at their full strength, they might have been able
to "catch" it, but they were weakened by the fire, and so they continued to deform, as the solid
top mass continued to fall and continued to trade gravitational potential energy for velocity and
work done deforming the structure below. And as this work of deformation was completed, the
now-liberated mass of each floor joined the top-weight in its destructive fall.

Now, people have wondered why it fell straight down like it did, or nearly so; The simple answer
is that it could fall no other way. The force vector for gravity is straight down, and I have
shown that there is sufficient energy here to overwhelm and twisting moment that the materials
of the building could have exerted, at least after the first few floors were consumed.

Also note that the air within the tower was compressed, and like air compressed in a bicycle pump,
heated up. In fact it was a rush of superheated air that roared out of the bottom of each tower,
and powered the synthetic pyroclastic pulse I spoke of. This air was hot enough to set materials
alight, and possibly enough to melt glass and some steels.

Now, at the bottom of this plunge was the basements of the WTC. In that pit all of the remaining
energy of the fall, plus the remaining fuel of the airliners (mostly spent) plus the fuel from the
building's auxiliary generators, plus gasoline from the parking decks, all of that energy and fuel
went into deforming the materials that fell into the pit, heating many of them to the melting point,
and providing a slow-burning, or coked, fire that was insulated by tons of powdered material and by
the earth itself such that there were pools of molten and nearly molten metal weeks later.

I first worked out this concept of what a building collapse would mean when considering what the
failure of Chicago's Sears Tower would mean in event of a major earthquake on the New Madrid fault,
but it applies equally to this calamity.

EDIT: Fixed a missing bit... And some typos.
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Catherine Vincent Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-23-06 12:11 AM
Response to Original message
1. Huh?
Say again?
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yurbud Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-23-06 12:12 AM
Response to Original message
2. why post this today? Are you worried people will re-examine Bush
ties to 9/11 because of UAE ties to bin Laden?
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benburch Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-23-06 12:13 AM
Response to Reply #2
3. Because of an agument I had in the Thom Hartmann chat room.
I was told I couldn't have made these calculations.
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Wilms Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-23-06 12:15 AM
Response to Reply #3
4. Well one thing is for sure.

* definitely couldn't do those calculations.

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SnoopDog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-23-06 12:15 AM
Response to Original message
5. I would be incline to say that there were demolition bombs...
Sometimes the massively educated mind is not correct and that simple reason does indeed explain the situation.

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longship Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-23-06 03:14 PM
Response to Reply #5
248. Really!
I've heard much outright crap to justify the lunacies of MIHOP, but this takes the cake.

I would counter it by stating that successful forensics does not rely on ignorace, but on education and experience, precisely that which MIHOPers obviously find so threatening to their purely political agenda.
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SnoopDog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-23-06 10:05 PM
Response to Reply #248
313. Chocolate cake is what I prefer...
The way I see it is that the planes took the buildings down or planes and demolition bombs played a larger part. I see that as 50-50 chance.

With the multitude of inconsistencies that surround 911, I feel that my assumption is morwe correct.

Unless somebody flys a plane into a building under controlled conditions - my answer is possible.
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FreedomAngel82 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-23-06 12:17 AM
Response to Original message
6. Have you listened to the audio tapes from the attack?
Firefighters proclaiming there were bombs. Go and see "Loose Change" at http://www.question911.com
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upi402 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-23-06 12:23 AM
Response to Reply #6
12. On that one, I wonder
could it have been the 480 Volt lighting and even the distribution panels exploding from molten copper shorting between the 3 buses of the 3 phase panels. That's some BIG explosions. Fireballs roll out...

In an electrical system that is not 'selectively coordinated' all the upstream breakers would blow, but the heat would melt the copper buses of all the panels and it would get really crazy really fast.

I dunno, still in all, * is pure evil in the event of LIHOP.
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FreedomAngel82 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-23-06 12:36 AM
Response to Reply #12
27. So why did the ground shake around the area?
Edited on Thu Feb-23-06 12:38 AM by FreedomAngel82
If you watch films that people have from the event from a good bit away their cameras shake like crazy. And the firefighters said there were bombs that went off and the glass coming out of the windows. Go watch "Loose Change" and than come talk about whether or not you still believe what you do. Don't forget that the WTC was built to NOT EVER burn down and stand incredible heat. If the Empire state buliding didn't fall down from when it was burnt than the WTC tower story is bullshit.
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upi402 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-23-06 12:57 AM
Response to Reply #27
48. Okay, I need to see 'Loose Change' for sure -thanks!
I haven't researched the heat/melting point or structural steel the ironworkers put up. I just watched the documentary of its construction. Often structures are designed for this or that and then withstand much more due to structural sheer support or whatever -or they crumple enexpectedly and everyone is surprised.

And hey, my camera shakes when I take distant movies and I don't even drink!
:toast:

I'm with ya, I want to be. I hate those bastards really really bad. I'm just not in a position to research now.
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Kire Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-23-06 01:17 AM
Response to Reply #48
77. watch it right now on Google video
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upi402 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-23-06 01:24 AM
Response to Reply #77
90. thank you so much! I love this place in cyberspace!
watching.
bookmarked too.
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sabbat hunter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-23-06 09:25 AM
Response to Reply #27
187. it was NOT
designed to not ever burn down. that is just plain silly and false

hand held cameras shake, especially when one is nervous about what is happening.

the empire state building was hit by a FAR smaller plane that was not fully loaded with fuel.

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petgoat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-23-06 03:54 PM
Response to Reply #187
264. The 767 wasn't fully loaded either. It has fuel capacity of
24k gal. And only had 10k gal aboard.
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longship Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-23-06 02:07 PM
Response to Reply #27
230. Do you mean like the Titanic was built to never sink?
Edited on Thu Feb-23-06 02:08 PM by longship
nt
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greyl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-23-06 12:27 AM
Response to Reply #6
15. They heard explosions.
People use the term "it sounded like a bomb went off" all the time to describe things that aren't bombs.

In addition, when a house burns down to the ground, there are usually several things inside that explode.

Why is it such a shock that explosions were heard during a huge damn fire and collapsing building?
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benburch Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-23-06 12:30 AM
Response to Reply #15
19. And that is exactly what I expect this would sound like. nt
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OmmmSweetOmmm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-23-06 12:34 AM
Response to Reply #15
24. There is a tome of transcripts from first responders who heard and saw
evidence of bombs. Lower floors in ruins for no apparent reason. There were also several transcripts mentioning a missile being shot into the WTC from the Woolworth Bldg.
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greyl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-23-06 01:10 AM
Response to Reply #24
60. Uhhh, don't forget the millions of witnesses to two planes
Edited on Thu Feb-23-06 01:11 AM by greyl
hitting the towers.

http://www.911myths.com/html/accounts_of_explosions.html

edit: (I'm sure most of us have seen the video of the first plane impact by now)
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OmmmSweetOmmm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-24-06 12:30 PM
Response to Reply #60
333. Except the first responders were In the two towers.
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sabbat hunter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-23-06 09:27 AM
Response to Reply #24
188. missiles?
shoulder fired missles into a building the size of the WTC would be like a pinprick

lower floors damage was from jet fuel going down elevator shafts on fire (those damage reports came mainly from tower 1) more than enough to cause damage, plus "explosions" as they passed mechanical floors and damaged equipment.
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petgoat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-23-06 03:51 PM
Response to Reply #188
262. shoulder fired missles...would be like a pinprick
Not if they were armor-piercing missiles fired right into the structural columns.

lower floors damage was from jet fuel going down elevator shafts

The fuel tanks were shredded by the impact. How did jet fuel traveling at 450 mph
brake within 100 feet so it could flow down the elevator shafts? It didn't! It
kept right on going and slammed through the other side.

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frylock Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-23-06 06:34 PM
Response to Reply #188
300. ah yes -- the seemingly unlimited supply of kerosene..
that explains away everything.
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longship Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-23-06 02:14 PM
Response to Reply #24
231. Invisible missiles, disappearing airliners,
For Christ sake, millions of people witnessed these events. From where in the fuck did the missile claim come? Like a Mach 0.8 collision of a large airliner full of jet fuel wasn't sufficient to collapse a building?

Puleeeze. Let's not get ridiculous here. Stick to the *facts*. Stop making shit up out of whole cloth.
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petgoat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-23-06 03:43 PM
Response to Reply #231
259. From where in the fuck did the missile claim come?
Reports said they came from the Woolworth Building. I'm not saying the reports
were correct; I'm just saying there were reports and I doubt they've ever been
properly investigated.

millions of people witnessed these events.

And scores reported explosions, but still the idea is not taken seriously in the
mainstream.
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longship Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-23-06 01:30 PM
Response to Reply #15
222. Correct, it's called catastrophic structural failure.
Anybody who has ever witnessed this in an engineering lab knows that catastrophic failure is a very violent action.

For instance, when a reinforced concrete structure fails catastrophically it instantly releases all the energy that it was holding. The result is like an explosion, a disproportionally loud "bang", high speed debris ejection (which some MIHOPers call "squibs"), and, when the stress is verticle, the acceleration of the failing elements downward.

This is precisely what happened in the WTC buildings that collapsed. I see nothing in these collapses that would warrant claims of the MIHOPers.
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longship Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-23-06 02:24 PM
Response to Reply #15
235. They heard catastrophic failures
A support element under stress, like a steel reinforced concrete column, does not fail slowly. It fails explosively releasing the totality of energy which it was supporting in a small fraction of a second. This results in a very large bang, the high speed ejection of pulverized support element, and an extreme acceleration in the direction of the failure (in this case, downward).

I see nothing in the WTC collapses that indicates controlled demolition since the evidence spewed by MIHOPers would still exist without controlled demolition. Parsimony dictates that in absense of any other evidence it must be rejected as a theory.
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DemInDistress Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-25-06 04:28 PM
Response to Reply #15
346. massive explosions were detonated in the basements
yet those jets struck the 90Th floor of WT1 and 78Th floor of WT2 and strangely no jet crashed into WT7 and that collapsed like a "prefect controlled demolition" go figure. debunker's abound !!!
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upi402 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-23-06 12:17 AM
Response to Original message
7. kinda why I lean toward LIHOP
I need to know more about jet fuel burn rate and length of steel melyting poit temp and confirmation of grade, thickness, and frame schedule of structure.
Weight like that falling 10'would collapse a structure. Just from experience and reason -no test evidence.
So, I need to quit my job and study:shrug:
I wish.

Looks like great work Ben.
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Goldensilence Donating Member (213 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-23-06 12:18 AM
Response to Original message
8. qualifications?
Edited on Thu Feb-23-06 12:28 AM by Goldensilence
" I Stayed at a holiday in express last night"

On edit: Regardless, to me, whether there was bombs or not in the WTC there is something still very fishy about the whole scenario. LIke how the whole in the pentagon was way smaller then a 747, how all the security video tapes in the surrounding area where immediately confiscated. The wreckage of the philadelphia flight is well...:S doesn't look like there was much of anything there. There also other high rise building around the world that had large fires and they never collapsed. The whole situation reeks like the burning of the Reichstag
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karlrschneider Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-23-06 01:16 AM
Response to Reply #8
75. Okay, name 1 or 2 other high rise buildings that were hit by 757/767
planes and didn't fall down. (There were no 747s involved in 9/11)
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longship Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-23-06 01:10 PM
Response to Reply #8
219. The whole (sic) in the Pentagon.
The hole in the Pentagon was the diameter of the fuselage of the airliner that hit it. Anybody who says different is deceiving you.
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bpilgrim Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-23-06 12:19 AM
Response to Original message
9. clean collapse -vs- dirty collapse
the ONLY types of collapses that come under the 'clean' category are...

1. design
2. CD

peace
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upi402 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-23-06 12:28 AM
Response to Reply #9
16. the possibility of a controlled demolition
is why I wanted that real estate afterward to be a public memorial and park. no business on hallowed ground. no profit from death, but then... it's BushCo huh?


peace back to ya!
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Kire Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-23-06 01:20 AM
Response to Reply #9
84. CD?
:shrug:
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Twist_U_Up Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-23-06 12:20 AM
Response to Original message
10. They where way to many columns
Edited on Thu Feb-23-06 12:21 AM by Twist_U_Up

the one plane hit mostly to the outside of the building

the other was pretty much a direct hit

the first building would have if anything toppled to the side

the second building was still extremely structurally sound

The Empire State building was hit by a Bomber and it did some damage but still that didn't come close to falling and it was built long before the more structurally sound Twin Towers
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drm604 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-23-06 12:47 AM
Response to Reply #10
34. High rise buildings aren't like trees or phone poles.
They aren't solid structures that will topple to the side. They are stacks of material surrounding empty spaces. If support is removed, or weakened sufficiently, gravity will cause the materials to take the quickest path down - in other words, straight down. Explain why you think it should have toppled to the side. The number of columns really isn't relevant. If the heat from the burning jet fuel can weaken one column, it can weaken more than one.

The Empire State building was not subjected to the intense heat of large amounts of burning jet fuel. The twin towers were. How long one building was built before the other isn't relevant. If you're saying that the Empire State Building is aging and therefore less sound keep in mind that it was built in 1931 and the bomber hit it in 1945, only 14 years later. Do you have a cite for the claim that the twin towers were more structurally sound?
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Twist_U_Up Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-23-06 12:56 AM
Response to Reply #34
46. I know what they are Im a friggin 20 yr Union Ironworker
And I can tell you thi was a controlled demolition.
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karlrschneider Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-23-06 01:13 AM
Response to Reply #46
65. No offense, but I know a lot of 20+ year ironworkers and don't consider
them experts on demolition. (Worked at National Steel Erectors as pilot and engineer)
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Twist_U_Up Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-23-06 01:16 AM
Response to Reply #65
76. No offense taken
But I bet that if they tell you something about construction or how something is built or disassemble you will listen,say before someone that sits behind a desk looking at numbers.
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drm604 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-23-06 06:52 AM
Response to Reply #76
171. Someone who's sitting behind a desk looking at numbers
will often understand things much more than you or I if they have the proper education. I can't believe I'm seeing this kind of anti-intellectual attitude on DU.
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stevietheman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-23-06 10:38 AM
Response to Reply #171
194. But even educated people leave out variables in their calculations.
And sometimes, common sense and observations are those variables.
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Twist_U_Up Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-23-06 10:49 AM
Response to Reply #194
203. Thank you nt
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benburch Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-23-06 10:42 AM
Response to Reply #65
196. Architects don't study demolition either
I spoke with an old friend of mine who is a newly minted architect, and she never encountered the subject in her studies.
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longship Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-23-06 02:01 PM
Response to Reply #46
228. Well, you are totally wrong.
The WTC held many thousands of people daily. Remarkably, almost all of them made it out alive. Where are your witnesses to the planting of the explosives in the weeks prior to the collapse that would be required for this?

Why do you posit controlled demolition when such a thing is totally unncessary to explain the collapse? (Parsimony)

And with the multiple thousands of co-conspirators that would be required to pull off such a huge conspiracy that MIHOP claims would require, where are the witnesses willing to come forward now?

I would really like a MIHOPer to explain to me precisely how the most inept regime in the history of mankind (which cannot execute the simplest of plans without fucking it up) can perfectly execute such a huge and global conspiratorial event as MIHOP would require. Answer me that first.

Then, we can talk about your ignorance of science, parsimony, and simple logic.
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Kevin Fenton Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-23-06 03:11 PM
Response to Reply #228
245. Hi Longship,
"The WTC held many thousands of people daily. Remarkably, almost all of them made it out alive."
Actually, because it happened so early, most of them never entered.

"Where are your witnesses to the planting of the explosives in the weeks prior to the collapse that would be required for this?"
Who said weeks? I said years before. How many witnesses would there be to explosives being planted in an elevator shaft?

"And with the multiple thousands of co-conspirators that would be required to pull off such a huge conspiracy that MIHOP claims would require,"
I really doubt it would require thousands of people to place the explosives. How about you break that number - thousands - down?

"where are the witnesses willing to come forward now?"
If you were a party to the murder of 2,700 people, would you admit it?

"I would really like a MIHOPer to explain to me precisely how the most inept regime in the history of mankind (which cannot execute the simplest of plans without fucking it up) can perfectly execute such a huge and global conspiratorial event as MIHOP would require. Answer me that first."
They didn't execute it perfectly, they fucked it up. They had no idea the planes were coming. Then they panicked and blew the buildings up. Happy?
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longship Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-23-06 03:20 PM
Response to Reply #245
250. Hehehe
They didn't execute it perfectly, they fucked it up. They had no idea the planes were coming. Then they panicked and blew the buildings up. Happy?


ROTFL.

I love this one. There were two global conspiracies which miraculously targetted the same buildings at precisely the same time.
:rofl: :rofl: :rofl:
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Kevin Fenton Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-23-06 03:25 PM
Response to Reply #250
253. Which building was the world's number one terrorist target before 9/11?
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longship Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-23-06 03:41 PM
Response to Reply #253
258. The WTC.
I'm sorry Kevin. One global conspiracy is sufficient to explain the events of 9/11. We don't need to invoke a second global conspiracy to explain what happened that day. There may be some questions about it, but none of those questions rise to the level that the global conspiracy which was reported on that day has been falsified. I must invoke Occam's razor here. There is no need for MIHOP, especially since many of the MIHOP tenets have been demonstrated to be counter to known facts of the event, of science, and of eyewitness accounts.
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petgoat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-23-06 04:04 PM
Response to Reply #258
266. You have rejected Kevin's thesis without bothering to
understand it.

His theory is that the buildings were rigged with explosives years ago so they could be
taken down vertically in case of a terrorist attack. After the planes struck, because
the danger of damage to other buildings in case of an uncontrolled collapse, they were
demolished in a controlled manner.

You owe Kevin an apology, and your own understanding of reality would be well served by
a less arrogant attitude.
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longship Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-23-06 04:18 PM
Response to Reply #266
271. Sorry Kevin, but that theory doesn't fit either.
Edited on Thu Feb-23-06 04:29 PM by longship
Since an 110 story building cannot topple, there would be no need to do this (plant explosives). The only way the WTC can collapse is into its own footprint. The claim that it could topple has been debunked here thousands of times. It's just not possible. The lateral forces would rip the building apart and it would still fall into its footprint.

And, by the way, all the buildings surrounding the WTC towers *were* severely damaged by the towers' collapse. Ejecta would have achieved close to Mach velocities ripping into everything in the way. The shock wave itself crushed support columns in neighboring buildings, including WTC 7 which, at 57 stories, was uniquely exposed to a significant portion of the both the ejecta and the shock wave. The whole corner of WTC 7 was crushed like an aluminum can solely by the collapse of one tower. It was near enough to both towers that it received a double whammy on 9/11. Nobody who understands the forces involved was surprised when it also collapsed.

But, if you want to ignore all the events, and make a lot of stuff up out of whole cloth, I suppose you could require that somebody built self-destruction into three large buildings within which thousands and thousands of people reside daily. Myself, I think that such a conjecture borders on lunacy.
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Kevin Fenton Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-23-06 05:25 PM
Response to Reply #271
288. This and that
You make two statements:
(1) "The only way the WTC can collapse is into its own footprint."
(2) "And, by the way, all the buildings surrounding the WTC towers *were* severely damaged by the towers' collapse."
They can't both be true. Or, more precisely, to the degree one is true, the other can't be.
It is often claimed by CTers that the fact that the WTC collapsed into its owwn footprint is proof of controlled demolition. However, this fact is not actually a fact. The Twin Towers didn't collapse into their own footprint, they threw debris all over the place, so your statement (1) is false.

"The shock wave itself crushed support columns in neighboring buildings, including WTC 7 which, at 57 stories, was uniquely exposed to a significant portion of the both the ejecta and the shock wave."
"It was near enough to both towers that it received a double whammy on 9/11."
(1) Show me a picture (or even a report) of a support column in WTC 7 crushed by the shockwave;
(2) You added 10 stories on WTC 7;
(3) The North Tower's collapse caused visible damage to WTC 7 - I'm certainly not going to argue about that, but show me damage attributable to the South Tower's fall. There's no double whammy. The damage to seven is no worse than the damage to any surrounding building. Actually, it suffered less damage than several other surrounding buildings that didn't collapse that day. The damage and the fires are not enough.
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longship Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-23-06 05:50 PM
Response to Reply #288
290. You're over parsing my words.
Edited on Thu Feb-23-06 06:13 PM by longship
The buildings fell *down* rather than toppling like a domino. However, in falling *down* they released a huge amount of energy which manifests itself as a outward propogating shock wave. It's the release of this energy (which BenBurch calculates above) which results in a huge amount of ejected matter. This would happen regardless of whether the collapse was controlled or not. The velocity of the shock wave and the ejected matter due to that shock wave would be extreme. The big stuff would not be affected by this, but there would be shards of glass, books, furniture, steel filing cabinets, people and everything else flying out of the collapse at supersonic speed. Anything in the way would get crushed. It wouldn't matter how strong it was. All the buildings in the way would be either destroyed outright or severely damaged. Glass outer walls of WTC 7, *the* most exposed building because of its 57 story height, would *not* stop the shock wave.

Want pics? Why don't you do what I have to do, Google them? Why do I have to do your research?

Here's a pic of the side of the WTC 7 showing the damage to the front from the side. The damaged corner is on the side of the collapse. The whole front side of the building would undoubtedly be equally devastated. There may be shots of that side of the building, but if I were a news photog I don't think I would risk my life to obtain it.


It took me ten seconds to find this pic. I'll let you get more yourself, if you need them.

Here's another with a better view.

The entire side toward the right in the picture was towards the collapse. It's destroyed, smoke coming out from all floors.
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Kevin Fenton Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-24-06 02:20 AM
Response to Reply #290
321. Seven again
First of all "double whammy". FEMA says of the South Tower:
"A review of aerial photographs of the site, following the collapse, as well as identification of pieces of structural steel from WTC 2, strongly suggests that while the top portion of the tower fell to the south and east, striking Liberty Street and the Bankers Trust building, the lower portion of the tower fell to the north and west, striking the Marriott Hotel (WTC 3). Again, the debris pattern spread laterally as far as approximately 400-500 feet from the base of the structure."
FEMA says the South Tower didn't hit WTC 7 or collapse into its own footprint (although it explicitly mentions that North Tower debris did hit Seven). If you want to argue the opposite, you need to produce some evidence.

"The big stuff would not be affected by this, but there would be shards of glass, books, furniture, steel filing cabinets, people and everything else flying out of the collapse at supersonic speed."
You're saying that Seven was hit by a filing cabinet? The height of the hole is about 100 feet - do they make DU-tipped filing cabinets now?

This is the Bankers' Trust building (near the South Tower, after it collapsed):
http://homepage.ntlworld.com/jamie_u512/fig-6-1.jpe
That must have been one tough filing cabinet!

And here's WTC 6 (much closer to the North Tower then WTC 7 was):

Look at the size of the crater in the middle. You seriously think this was done by a filing cabinet?

"Anything in the way would get crushed. It wouldn't matter how strong it was. All the buildings in the way would be either destroyed outright or severely damaged. Glass outer walls of WTC 7, *the* most exposed building because of its 57 story height, would *not* stop the shock wave."
Here's a photo of Seven as it is collapsing:

Well, there is a 100 foot chunk missing from the SW corner (as you pointed out) and there also seems to be other visible damage to the building. However, having looked at this and other photos, the SW corner seems to be absolutely the worst hit place. WTC 7 was supported by over 80 columns - how many are missing in the SW corner? Three? The building is over 90% intact, it was sprinklered and there can be no question that the fireproofing around the column that collapsed first was 100% undamaged.

"The entire side toward the right in the picture was towards the collapse. It's destroyed, smoke coming out from all floors."
Smoke is not coming out of all the floors and never did come out of all the floors (most of the floors didn't even catch fire). What you think is smoke is actually dust from the collapse of the North Tower.
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longship Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-23-06 06:20 PM
Response to Reply #288
297. Stand corrected. 47 stories.
Edited on Thu Feb-23-06 06:26 PM by longship
But there were no other buildings that height that close to the collapse. As I said, WTC 7 was uniquely exposed due to the fact that it towered over its neighbors. My indication of support damage to WTC 7 was based on an academic study of the collapse and its causes. I do not have a citation easily at hand. I'll see if I can find it for you.

Many conspiracy theorists point to FEMA's preliminary report, which said there was relatively light damage to WTC 7 prior to its collapse. With the benefit of more time and resources, NIST researchers now support the working hypothesis that WTC 7 was far more compromised by falling debris than the FEMA report indicated. "The most important thing we found was that there was, in fact, physical damage to the south face of building 7," NIST's Sunder tells PM. "On about a third of the face to the center and to the bottom--approximately 10 stories--about 25 percent of the depth of the building was scooped out." NIST also discovered previously undocumented damage to WTC 7's upper stories and its southwest corner.


The conclusions of this study are telling:
WTC 7 might have withstood the physical damage it received, or the fire that burned for hours, but those combined factors--along with the building's unusual construction--were enough to set off the chain-reaction collapse.
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petgoat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-24-06 02:29 PM
Response to Reply #297
335. You say WTC 7 was uniquely exposed
due to the fact that it towered over its neighbors.

But the pictures of this unique towering exposure do not show the severe damage claimed, which
must therefore be hidden by the surrounding buildings.

Your quotes more aid the proposition that the government is lying than that WTC7 was damaged.
Look at the absurdity of the claim: FEMA was mystefied by the WTC7 collapse because they didn't
know about the ten-story hole scooped out of the side. FEMA didn't bother to interview the firemen
to discuss structural damage and the fires before they made their report. The firemen didn't
volunteer their information that WTC7 was damaged.

And yet two years later NIST pulls a ten-story hole out of its butt, even though there are no
pictures to support this fantasy.

Say, I have a friend who owns 20% of the Chesapeake tunnel. Are you interested?


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Kevin Fenton Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-23-06 05:12 PM
Response to Reply #258
285. Not a global conspiracy
One global conspiracy is not enough to explain what happened that day. Specifcally, IMHO the official account cannot explain:
(1) Why the towers fell;
(2) If the pilots were as bad as the FBI claims, they can't have flown the planes (actually, Al Qaeda says they were better than the FBI does, so we probably have the explanation right there);
(3) How come the National Military Command Centre couldn't figure out Washington would be a target;
(4) Given that the US intelligence community knew the attacks were coming and conducted a major disruption programme to stop them, how come they didn't turn over the hijackers, even though some of them were known to 3-4 US intelligence agencies?

I wouldn't even describe Al Qaeda's conspiracy as a global conspiracy - it's just them and very probably somebody else (the ISI, Iran, I don't know). I wouldn't describe the plan to put explosives in the WTC as a global conspiracy; we're talking about a small team that did it, the couple of guys in the company the provided cover for them and a couple of dozen people in the powers-that-be.

As far as concerns there being no need for MIHOP, I agree completely. I'm not a MIHOPer, I think they cocked it up and then made what use of it they could. And give Occam's Razor a break - the guy's been shaved so many times he must be bleeding to death.

Here are a few points to consider:
(1) If the safety factor was 3 originally (I think it was more, but nevermind for now), then after the planes hit it was 2.6 (South) and 2.7 (North). You're suggesting:
(a) A building (South Tower) with a safety factor of 2.6 collapsed after 56 minutes of an office fire (the 5,500 or so gallons of jet fuel left after the impact burned up in 10 minutes or so), even though there were less combustibles (by 20% or so) in it than an ordinary office fire;
(b) Another building (North Tower) with a safety factor of 2.7 collapsed after 102 minutes of an office fire (the 7,000 gallons of jet fuel left after the impact burned up in 10 minutes or so), even though there were less combustibles (by 20% or so) in it than in an ordinary office fire and the fire was oxygen starved.

(2) What about the elevator hatch door blowouts on the lower floors (concourse and sub-basements)? How much jet fuel could have gone into one elevator shaft and how much would actually have to go there to cause multiple hatch door blowouts? Why would a jet fuel fireball (although there almost certainly was a jet fuel fireball in the shaft as well as mechanical damage to the elevator cables) blow out multiple sets of hatch doors? And if there was a fireball on the lower floors, how come it didn't burn the 2 people in the elevator shaft? If you ask me, the impact severed the cables, the elevator fell and the overpressure set off the explosives (many of the core columns were next to the elevator shafts, so they were both the best and easiest place to put explosives).

(3) Look at the squibs, they aren't random overpressures:
North Tower:

You can see that the squibs are coming out of mechanical floors (you can tell they are mechanical floors by the dark bands), which are always connected to the floors that are collapsing by max. 1-3 elevators.

South Tower:
http://911research.wtc7.net/wtc/evidence/photos/wtc2exp2.html
Again, they're coming out of a mechanical floor - the easiest place to put explosives without anybody noticing.

Yes, it looks crazy at first. Yes, most of the other stuff (no 757 at the Pentagon) is typical conspiracy crap. However, the numbers for collapse just don't add up.
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longship Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-23-06 06:05 PM
Response to Reply #285
294. Read my posts above.
Edited on Thu Feb-23-06 06:06 PM by longship
I've debunked all this stuff, included the so-called "squibs" time and time again on these forums. One of my posts in this thread describes the WTC tower collapses in detail without any invisible explosives.

Look, the principle upon which I operate is the same one Carl Sagan describes in his book, "Demon Haunted World". I highly suggest that you check out Carl Sagan's Baloney Detection Kit. From those standards, MIHOP has the Baloney Meter pinned.

When people make extraordinary claims, (i.e., that the airliners that millions of people witnessed crashing into the WTC did *not* bring down the buildings and that it was done deliberately by controlled demolition), something inside me is alerted that it might be baloney. So I check things out thoroughly.

What I've found is that almost all the MIHOP claims have attributes of pure baloney. Lots of special pleading, non sequitor, appeal to ignorance, observational selection, straw man arguments, etc. My conclusion has to be that MIHOP is substantially baloney.

More importantly, I have investigated the academic literature on the WTC and Pentagon. I am satisfied that the events of 9/11 and the days after were brought on by lunatics crashing airplanes into the buildings, and indirect consequences of those collisions. I do not do so without having more questions about these events. It's just that the questions do not rise to the standard which would require anybody to set aside my conclusions and take on those of the MIHOPers. This is especially true since I suspect that the entirety of MIHOP is rife with baloney.

I hope that this has helped you understand where I'm coming from.

Peace.
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petgoat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-23-06 06:20 PM
Response to Reply #294
296. Your Straw Man is Baloney All Right
Edited on Thu Feb-23-06 06:21 PM by petgoat
"airliners that millions of people witnessed crashing into the WTC did *not* bring down the buildings"

The fact that millions witnessed them (on television) does not mean they brought down the building.

"This is especially true since I suspect that the entirety of MIHOP is rife with baloney."

Ah, so your suspicion that a theory is baloney affects whether the evidence meets proper standards.
Thanks for exposing your methodology.

You should read Dr. Griffin. He's an expert epistemologist. So is another member of Scholars for
911 Truth, Dr. James Fetzer. He's written (and edited) gobs of books on the philosophy of science.



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longship Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-23-06 06:42 PM
Response to Reply #296
302. Do NOT put words in my mouth.
Edited on Thu Feb-23-06 06:52 PM by longship
I never state that I depend solely on the millions of eyewitnesses. In fact, I specifically and clearly indicate that I do *NOT* depend on one source.

This is typical MIHOP bullshit. Read the entire damned post. Better yet, read all the posts I've made on this thread. And you wonder why in the Sam Hell I think MIHOP is baloney when all you can do is attack the messenger instead of the message. Have you no decency, sir?

Again, one has to look at all the facts, and not make them up and not make fallacious arguments. That means that I must take your appeal to authority as more of the same.

Typical MIHOPer ad hominem response. I'm done dealing with the trolls here.
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Kevin Fenton Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-24-06 05:13 AM
Response to Reply #294
326. Numbers
"I've debunked all this stuff, included the so-called "squibs" time and time again on these forums. One of my posts in this thread describes the WTC tower collapses in detail without any invisible explosives."
If an issue has already been dealt with elsewhere, it is usual to give a specific reference and link to it. This thread has 300 plus posts, I'm not going to look through all of them just because you can't be bothered to write the number of your post.

I had a look at the "Baloney Detection Kit". It's OK, but what's the point of all the fancy Latin? All I do is ask 2 simple questions:
(1) Are the numbers correctly observed?
(2) Do they add up?

If we apply these two questions to the Pentagon, we get a result pretty fast, for example Meyssan claims that the impact hole caused by the plane was around 18 feet wide, whereas in actual fact a more thorough analysis of the photos shows it to be 90 feet wide. So we can dismiss the idea that the impact hole was too small to be made by a 757 right there.

Looking at the WTC, everybody gets the numbers wrong, for example the OP here exaggerates the towers' weight by a factor of 4. In addition, I really don't know what he thinks dropping the whole building from a height of 200m proves. Others double the amount of jet fuel (claiming that the planes were full), multiply the most probable amount of core damage by any number between 2 and 10 and completely fictionalise the way the "angle clips" fixed the floors to the core. There is only one organisation that has at least tried to do the sums properly - NIST. When they input halfway correct values (the base case) into their model, the building stayed upright, so they fiddled about with the inputs (for example they added over 200 tons of combustibles to the fire floors) until the buildings reached the point of instability (the more severe case). I cannot overemphasise the importance of this: the best model showed that the impact damage and fires were not enough to initiate the collapse.

Do the sums, show me the numbers. Nothing else is good enough.
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eyepaddle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-24-06 10:31 AM
Response to Reply #326
328. The 200m drop is an approximation, half the structure is
below that level, and one half is above it. This is assumed because it makes the calcualtrion much faster (you don't have to fool around with integral calculus and "add up" the potential energy one step (floor) at a time. This way the extra energy from the top floor is canceled out by the lower potential ebnergy from the bottom floor, the next-to-the-top-floor by the second story, etc.

(Added just to keep everybody on the same page of the discussion)
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Kevin Fenton Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-24-06 11:05 AM
Response to Reply #328
330. Thank you for your explanation
However, what is the point of it? Why do we need to know the potential energy of the tower falling? What use is this number?
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eyepaddle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-24-06 11:32 AM
Response to Reply #330
331. It's been awhile since I read the OP,
Edited on Fri Feb-24-06 11:49 AM by eyepaddle
but I think he was considering whether or not the energy in the crash might have been enough to cause the glowing/molten steel buried in the rubble pile.

Clearly fifty-three kajillion joules (or whatever the calculated number was) is a whompin' huge amount of energy. Questions I'd consider at this point might be something like: how much energy was expended in the shock wave/kinetic energy of ejected material etc. vs the amount contained in the molten metal portion of the rubble. If that looks ballpark feasible then we (and by "we" I mean "somebody better at calculus than ME") can fine tune the potential energy. The OP's approximation islikely to be a bit off (lower floors are heavier than upper ones as they have a greater load to carry) but by how much? 2%? 50%? An order of magnitude? All I'd have at this point is a hunch, and since I was always a pretty mediocre student in physics and chemistry, I'll refrain from making a pronouncement.

On edit: Wow I just can't type today....
2nd Edit: By Crash I meant collapse of the towers--not the plane crash.
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Kevin Fenton Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-24-06 12:22 PM
Response to Reply #331
332. He says
"This is sufficient to explain why, once they started to fall, they kept falling, and why they also destroyed Building 7 and why the debris in the pit were so very hot initially."
Well, it might explain why the debris in the pit were so very hot initially, if, indeed, they were hot initially and didn't heat up later.

But I can't see how it explains "why, once they started to fall, they kept falling". To work out whether the towers would keep falling you need to take the weight above the impact areas (32,000 and 65,000 tons in 1 and 2 respectively), the safety factor, the impact damage (I reckon about 10.5% and 13.5% of the structure), the weakening caused by the fires and the speed the upper block would have been falling when it hit the initial collapse floor. Then you need to look at whether the initial collapse would have been as a block (I doubt it, just look at the video of the mast on top of the North Tower falling) and whether it would all have fallen straight down, not over the edges. Before this you need to show whether the building would have started to collapse at all.

In any case, they didn't destroy building 7. Nothing whatsoever from the South Tower hit 7 (at least that's what the FEMA report says). Discrete pieces of debris from the North Tower hit 7, not some sort of shockwave - it still had most of its windows in after the north Tower collapsed.

Here it is after the Twin Towers collapsed:

Does it look like it's been hit by a shockwave?
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DemInDistress Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-25-06 06:01 PM
Response to Reply #245
347. wow, you debunker's howl loudly..
don't you believe a team of former CIA specialists could wired those 3 buildings with "thermite cutter charges" within a week? Mark Louizeaux says CEO of Controlled Demolitions his company could. Why must thousands be involved? A small sinister cabal of M-U-R-D-E-R-E-R-S and thieves could pull this off with millions looking over their shoulder. Just watch the clip from the "lone gunman" where computers and greedy corporate thieves hijack a commercial jet, take over the controls and head straight for WT2. The WTC and WT7 were wired withe explosives evidence of the blasts are caught on tape. Free look kevin here..
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-3498980438587461603&q=eyewitness+to+911 listen to those blasts just before each building collapses. Do it for the dead of 911 kev. MAKE SURE YOU WEAR EARPHONES.

Inept regime you bet kev..bush is the perfect patsy,an imbecile by definition and sadly POTUS. Its the cabal behind him, CHENEY,DUMSEY,POPPY,BAKER,ROVE,BIG OIL,DEFENSE CONTRACTORS,and others not known yet. So,despite all the warnings prior to 911 bush went forward to booker. what's a prez to do? forget he was warned by secret service at 8:20am of flight 11 being hijacked,he continued to booker,he had a goat to meet.
shame on you people who accept the "LUDICROUS 911 REPORT"..No middle ground here kev. either your with the
M-U-R-D-E-R-E-R-S AND PROFITEERS OF 911 or YOUR WITH THE ARABS..
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petgoat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-23-06 04:06 PM
Response to Reply #228
268. These questions have simple answers, every one. nm
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dchill Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-23-06 06:31 PM
Response to Reply #228
298. You cannot know that anyone is completely wrong.
Let me just say that your position is untenable in a rational world. 911 was not a "huge and global conspiratorial event" - it was a secret plot, that should be obvious. As far as the plan being "perfectly executed", I submit to you that it was far from it. A perfectly executed plan woul not have left so many legitimate questions unanswered.

I suggest that you are not operating from a standpoint of "simple logic." An "ignorance of science" is a relative state, and none of this has anything to do with parsimony. You are just another of the defenders of the official theory who regularly responds with insult.

Speaking for myself, I resent it.

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longship Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-23-06 08:29 PM
Response to Reply #298
307. Two theories.
Theory One

Undisputed Facts:

The structure of the WTC towers was such that the stress was translated to the ground via two paths: the outer walls and the central core.

Neither the outer walls nor the central core had sufficienct strength to maintain the integrity of the building alone.

The core and the outer walls are connected by floor supports.

The floor supports distribute the forces between the core and outer walls.

Failure of the floor supports in their ability to distribute forces simultaneously to the core and the outer walls could result in failure if sufficient number of them were damaged to the point that stresses in either core or outer walls could exceed their designed maximum.

Large airliners collided with the two buildings at approximately 500 mph puncturing the outer walls, damaging the floor supports in the path of the airliners through the buildings, and igniting fires from the tons of volatile jet fuel on the airliners.

Both buildings collapsed.

The outer walls punctured by the airliners added stress to the inner core and the outer walls in the area immediately below and around the impact area. This was due to the inability of the stress to translate through the hole in the outer shell.

Any damage to the floor supports would further impede the building's ability to balance the stresses between shell and core. This would result in increased stresses in the core.

Here's Theory One:

The blast of the collision (some 2 billion joules plus the energy of the exploding/burning fuel) blasted some of the fire retardant off the floor supports (a weak point in the design).

The differential heating from the fires distorted these supports to a point that they could pull out of the clips holding the supports to the outer walls (a weak point in the design).

Continued failures in the floor supports resulted in increased stress in the core to the point that a substantial percentage of the stress in the impact zone had to go through the core-alone. This was more than the design limits of the core. The core just below the impact failed which precipitated a catastrophic collapse of the building by the building above the impact falling onto the floors below the failure, which then failed, and so on.

Here's Theory Two - A:

The temperatures were not sufficient to distort the floor supports. They remained intact in the impact zone (other than those damaged in the collision).

Somebody had time in the chaos which ensued to plant destruction charges in the buildings so that the buildings could be collapsed. Oops! That ain't gonna work, will it. No time to accomplish it. Let's skip this one...

Or Theory Two - B:

The temperatures were not sufficient to distort.,,,, etc. blah-blah-blah.

Some time before the collision somebody had the foresight to install a building auto destruct system, destructive charges in both towers so that in event of a catastrophe like what occurred on 9/11, the buildings could be "safely" collapsed. This could be deliberately triggered. They did this in spite of the fact that thousands and thousands of people occupied these buildings daily.

On the morning of 9/11 somebody activated the auto destruct system in spite of the fact that from outward appearances the buildings were still standing firm and were filled with hundreds of rescue workers and possibly many thousands of survivors. In spite of the fact that the building was surrounded by even more rescue workers and gawkers, they deliberately chose the particular time to bring down one of the towers. It collapsed causing much loss of life to occupants and rescue people and the utter destruction of all the buildings surrounding the collapse. The collapse registered on seismographs across the continent.

Then, in spite of the undoubted death of many hundreds and the hideous destruction of other buildings in the first deliberate collapse, they waited a short period of time and then deliberately brought down the second tower. More death and destruction, etc.

Of the hundreds of people involved in the justification, planning, design, installation and activation of the auto destruct system not one person has stepped forward to tell what really happened on 9/11. This is in spite of the fact that of the grevious loss of life by the collapses.

Etc.

For simplicity let's stop right here.

Now, let's look at the two theories.

Do both theories explain the buildings' collapse?
Yes, they do.

Do both explain all the evidence?

Well, the first one seems to do a pretty good job of this. It has the advantage of not having any additional baggage. The collisions seem to have had a very bad result, the collapse of the buildings. Furthermore, it is testable. Once could model elements of the posited failures in the lab and determine whether the theory holds up under scrutiny. This has been and is being done. Findings are in line with the theory. So far, so good. This is a good candidate.

Okay. Now theory two. First, there is no direct evidence or even anecdotal evidence for the posited existance of the auto destruct system. It seems like this is an unnecessary element, especially since there's theory one which explains things very well in spite of an absense of an auto destruct. Let's let this slide for a moment. The secondary consequences of the auto destruct are more damaging to the theory than its primary ones. If there was an auto destruct, people had to think it up, design it, plan it, install it. Furthermore they had to decide that it was somehow necessary.

This latter point is what's puzzling me. I cannot think of a reason why such a thing would be necessary.

Tall buildings do not fall over. They can't. When a tall building fails, it collapses down. It isn't strong enough laterally to remain intact while it's toppling. If it were to try to topple it would fall apart and the pieces would fall straight down. Try to make a tall stack of dominoes topple like a single one. You can't do it. It always falls into a single pile centered at the point where the stack stood.

Furthermore, if this was done for safety to the other buildings, it certainly failed. And any first year physics student could have predicted that outcome. The energy released alone could not be contained. We're talking two buildings a quarter mile high here. No controlled demolition of this scale has ever been attempted. The resources to implement it are daunting. In spite of this, there is not one shred of evidence for the existance of such a system. It was all planned and installed without witnesses and of all those who were part of the plan, and in spite of its catastrophic outcome, not a single soul has come forward.

Hmmm. This just doesn't pass the smell test, let alone anything else.

I'll take Theory A.
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dchill Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-23-06 11:26 PM
Response to Reply #307
315. I'll take Two B.
It really doesn't matter to me, or anyone else, that you cannot think of a reason why such a thing would be necessary. No one said it was necessary. Invading Iraq wasn't necessary. Your smell test and mine are just different.

We are engaged in a thread that is suggesting that a formula be employed that describes what would happen if one were to drop both towers from 205 meters or so in the air - at the same instant. This is simply not what happened. You want to be scientific, then be scientific. But at least don't give credence to an argument simply because there is a frmula used in there somewhere.

The buildings came straight down. That much is unarguable. They didn't fall at the same instant and deliver their total energy to the ground in one event. I maintain that the towers acted as their own shock absorbers in two separate, gradual collapses that emitted far less energy than what benburch is positing.

Those THREE buildings were loaded, so somebody HAD to pull the trigger to destroy the evidence. (Evidence that wasn't left in situ, or even on the same continent. And no, I don't believe any of it was necessary.
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longship Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-24-06 02:57 AM
Response to Reply #315
324. ZERO evidence that they were loaded.
Let's have some witnesses to the "loading" of the buildings. Name ONE person who witnessed the preparation of the building for destruction. Just one out of the many who would have had to be involved in such an enterprise. If it happened surely there's one who will come forward and attest to the fact. There were tens of thousands of people in these building every day. Surely some of them witnessed something as important as the planting of explosives throughout the building.

You can't, can you? That's because it never happened. The whole story is made-up. It's a fiction.

Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. There is not one shred of evidence for this MIHOP bull-pucky. Not one shred. But I don't suppose it will stop MIHOPers from spewing this crap all over the Internet any time soon.

It's all rubbish. Just like Creationism. Just like space alien stories. Just like ghost stories. Just like all the rest of the pseudo-scientific and pseudo-intellectual claptrap that today's world of ignorance is built from.

Ignorance is an evil thing. MIHOP is based solely and exclusively on organized ignorance.

I'm done here.
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petgoat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-24-06 02:59 PM
Response to Reply #324
337. Name ONE person who witnessed the preparation of the building
Name one person who witnessed the preparations for JFK's assassination. It didn't happen?

There were tens of thousands of people in these building every day, but how many were there
after midnight and before 6?

Besides, Scott Forbes witnessed a power-down that could have involved planting explosives.

I'm done here.

You're not, really, because 1) the quality of your argument is so low that you haven't convinced
anybody and 2) you clearly have a lot to learn about the nature of evidence, the process of
reasoning, and the facts of the WTC collapses.

Parsimony may be admirable in scientific theory, but nothing involving human beings is simple,
and parsimony in criminology is not to be admired.

When a homicide investigator finds a man in a basement who's been shot, stabbed, and beaten to
death, he doesn't say "parsimony says it's suicide. There's no need to invent a lot of other
complicated factors like perpeptrators, motives, opportunity."



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dchill Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-24-06 11:46 PM
Response to Reply #337
342. Hey, if he's done here...
then he's done here. Fine with me. I never had someone expend so many joules of typing energy NOT answering what I posted. He's just another "hard scientist" (AntiHOPER, ostrich, expert.)
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petgoat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-24-06 02:52 PM
Response to Reply #307
336. Dishonest Framing Yields Dishonest Answers
Edited on Fri Feb-24-06 03:12 PM by petgoat
Your menu is incomplete, and stacked to the advantage of your theory A.

Your theory 2A, though deliberately absurd, is not absolutely impossible
if Van Romero is correct and only a few charges were involved. These
are suicide bombers after all. Somebody in the building's lower floors
could have gone out and planted the explosives after the plane struck.

Your theory 2B brings up the reasonable point that were explosives
officially installed, someone would have talked. According to ChristpherA,
somebody has talked.

But these "impossible" conditions you add (that the explosives were installed
in an hour, or that the explosivces were installed years before and nobody
talked) are not necessary to the CD theory at all.

Explosives could have been installed after midnight without witnesses. And
Scott Forbes witnessed the "power down" condition with armies of technicians
roaming around the building soon before 9/11.

Tall buildings do not fall over. They can't.

Then the leaning tower of Pisa can't lean, an A-380 can't take off, the Queen Mary
can't turn, and a hundred-car freight train can't make a curve.

This building clearly toppled.



Of course it's only a ten story building. So at what point does a building get too big
to topple? Fifty stories? Eighty?


I don't believe you have responded to my point that the holes in the outer walls were of little
consequence because they were balanced by the columns in tension on the other side of the building
(don't forget the hat truss at the top), because the E and W sides were relatively undamaged, and
the bridging effects of the lateral spandrel plates shown here




I don't understand at all your assertion that the stresses of the impact zone were transferred
to the core. You have not responded to my point that since the core was overbuilt by a factor
of three at least, it was fully capable of supporting all the loads of the building.



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frylock Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-23-06 06:54 PM
Response to Reply #228
304. evidently, there were several unscheduled safety drills..
some months before 9/11 pulling workers off of entire floors and causing power outages to security and TV monitoring systems. Also, a heightened security alert had been lifted and bomb-sniffing dogs removed from the towers days before the attack.
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TheModernTerrorist Donating Member (645 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-23-06 01:18 AM
Response to Reply #34
81. straight down is not the quickest path
when you have thousands of tons of STEEL sitting underneath.
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benburch Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-23-06 01:20 AM
Response to Reply #81
83. It is the ONLY path.
The physics allows no other.
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Lerkfish Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-23-06 08:16 AM
Response to Reply #83
182. I have to disagree with that.
I've witnessed a Controlled implosion, with weeks of planning and carefully placed charges. I was inside the building with the crew. They had gutted it of anything valuable, and had strategically placed shape charges on exposed girders and support columns throughout every floor.
This was an intentional collapse, well-planned. The intent was for the building to collapse downward into its footprint without harming other buildings next to it.

I was at a vantage point as it collaspsed and witnessed the collapse. It did NOT go down straight vertically as they had intended. as the floors collapsed, they shifted and the building fell outside the hoped for footprint. Other buildings received some damage and the debris field expanded the footprint by about 30% in size.

I would assume the same physics was in play, unless the building and I were transported to bizarro world.

Are you saying the physics allows no other? I am here to tell you you are wrong. The physics of a collapsing building involves more forces than gravity. the random shape of the debris rechannels stress in various directions, causing side shifts and slides of entire floors. Even the best designed and executed controlled demolitions do not collapse completely predictably.
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ThoughtCriminal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-23-06 10:23 AM
Response to Reply #182
191. Underneath was mostly air
"First, the building is not solid; it is 95 percent air and, hence, can implode onto itself. Second, there is no lateral load, even the impact of a speeding aircraft, which is sufficient to move the center of gravity one hundred feet to the side such that it is not within the base footprint of the structure. Third, given the near free-fall collapse, there was insufficient time for portions to attain significant lateral velocity. To summarize all of these points, a 500,000 t structure has too much inertia to fall in any direction other than nearly straight down."

http://www.tms.org/pubs/journals/JOM/0112/Eagar/Eagar-0112.html

The WTC was not a stack of "Jenga" blocks. If the builings had toppled over laterally, then I would be suspicious.


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northzax Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-24-06 12:56 AM
Response to Reply #191
316. right, all I ask
is for a single example of a tall building that fell over, not down.

none has. Steel framed building don't fall over, they fall down, straight down. Gravity, as the line goes, is a bitch, it is an unforgiving master, and it pulls down, not over.

that is all.
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TheModernTerrorist Donating Member (645 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-23-06 12:25 PM
Response to Reply #83
212. ok then
we see the South tower buckle and tilt to the east, and I can understand the psysics behind that collapsing. But tell me why the North Tower starts to collapse roof first, and not where the damage was?
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Twist_U_Up Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-23-06 01:26 AM
Response to Reply #81
94. exactly, most in the center with no damage
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drm604 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-23-06 06:46 AM
Response to Reply #81
170. If that's true
than why is anything standing?

Maybe "quickest path" wasn't exactly the right term to use. I thought that my point was obvious, I apologize if it wasn't. My point was that the material will go straight down until it hits something else. What happens at that point depends on the nature of what it hits. I probably don't have to explain this but some people seem to need the obvious pointed out explicitly (that's not directed at TheModerTerrorist but at others who may read this). If it hits a surface that's at a steep enough angle (and that surface holds) then it will slide off to the side. That would not result in the building falling over like a tree. If the surface is close enough to horizontal (and that surface holds) then everything stops right there. If, however, the lower surface does not hold then the fall will continue downward. None of this would result in the building "toppling to the side".

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Twist_U_Up Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-23-06 01:22 AM
Response to Reply #34
87. To answer your toppling question
The plane that hit the south tower hit to the side eliminating one corner bearing column. The jet fuel does not come close to the temps needed to weaken mostly 4 in column steel. jet fuel is like kerosene and most went up on the original fireball on the outside of the building.

If this building where to fall it wouldn't be straight down it would have topple to the voided corner.
The heat wasn't hot enough. They have fireman that where on the floor of impact stating on the radio that there where just a few small fires and he could probably knock them out in no time.
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karlrschneider Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-23-06 01:32 AM
Response to Reply #87
102. Firemen on a floor that was hit? I never heard that and don't believe it.
Anyway, the trusses weren't 4 in. they were way smaller. And the asbestos was knocked off by the impact. There was little structural redundancy in the design and it contained 120 (?-how many floors did they have) 'weak links'. Jet fuel burns a lot hotter than you apparently...in the plane I fly, a typical TIT (turbine inlet temperature) is around 850C. More than hot enough to melt steel, which is why they are made of titanium.
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Twist_U_Up Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-23-06 02:16 AM
Response to Reply #102
140. Could you please watch this
Edited on Thu Feb-23-06 02:17 AM by Twist_U_Up
everything we are discussing is covered in here and sourced. Its long but its spot on backed up with nothing but facts.I cant type that good, Im just an old Ironworker that has spent alot of time looking into this.

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-5137581991288263801&q=loose+change
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petgoat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-23-06 04:12 PM
Response to Reply #102
269. Chief Palmer radioed from 78 (the impact zone) of WTC2.
He did not report any blazing inferno or any scary structural damage.
He talked about knocking down some isolated fires.

http://911research.wtc7.net/wtc/evidence/audiotape.html

Brian Clark walked down from 84. He saw a few flames, but no inferno. He stopped on 31
to make phone calls.

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/wtc/above.html
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Twist_U_Up Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-23-06 08:49 PM
Response to Reply #102
309. I thought you said you watched Loose Change ?
They play the tape of the firefighters
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rman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-24-06 02:46 AM
Response to Reply #309
323. selective memory, drawing out the debate
and all that.
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longship Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-23-06 01:21 PM
Response to Reply #87
220. Heat not hot enough?
Edited on Thu Feb-23-06 01:23 PM by longship
This is a standard MIHOP claim. Unfortunately, it is special pleading. It totally ignores the other sources of ignition in play here. First, the jet fuel ignited explosively. The vast bulk of the fuel was atomized by the collision making it mostly all go up at once. This, added to the some 2 billion joules of collision energy blasted the heat treatment off the floor supports leaving them open to the heat generated by the burning paper, wood, carpeting, people, and everything else that was cumbustable. It is not necessary that the temperatures be above the melting point of steel for the steel to deform. All that is required is that there be sustained high temperature (which is undeniable in this case) and that there be a differential temperature across the structure's length (which is also undeniable in this case). The result is not the melting of the structure, but the deformation of the structure. That, by itself, is all that is required to promote the failures that resulted in the collapse.
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petgoat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-23-06 04:15 PM
Response to Reply #220
270. Even if heat made the floors drop, the core should have held.
NIST has not one core steel sample showing heating above 250 degrees C.

The bottom 800 feet of the 47 14" X 36" core columns never saw any heat.


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longship Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-23-06 04:59 PM
Response to Reply #270
282. NO!!! Not true.
Edited on Thu Feb-23-06 05:18 PM by longship
This is another example of MIHOP making things up.

The core in and of itself was not sufficient to hold the towers up and anybody saying so doesn't know what they are talking about.

The WTC's were revolutionary in design. The stresses and forces were divided between the core and the outer walls. It was through the combined structure that the stresses translated to the ground. Neither the outer walls nor the central core was sufficient on its own to hold the towers up. Crucial to this balance were the floor supports which connected the core to the outer walls and enable the two elements to share the load.

The plane penentrated the outer walls and damaged the core. This wasn't sufficient for failure but interfered with the balance of stress and forces in the building. Most important is the fact that the fracture of the outer walls made a situation where significant additional force had to be borne by the central core. This was not sufficient for immediate collapse but it did put the stress immediately below the impact area closer to the failure point. This would have been a similar situation in both buildings regardless of core damage.

Differential heating deformed the floor elements to the point that they warped out of position. Note that it is not necessary that steel melt to do this. One part of the beam is heated hotter than another. The hotter part expands more than the cooler part and the beam twists or bends. MIHOP claims that jet fuel doesn't burn hot enough is a straw man. This is simple, high school physics stuff here. The 2 billion joules of collision energy plus exploding fuel blasted the weak fire retardant off parts of the support steel in the impact area and differential heating did the rest.

The floor supports began to fail as they bent and twisted out of the supports which attached them to the outer walls. As this happened the stress on the central core increased as the stresses were no longer able to find their way to the ground via the now increasingly disconnected outer wall.

When sufficient floor supports failed, and the stress on the core reached the point where it could no longer hold, the columns in the central core immediately below the impact area failed catastrophically. The building above this core failure immediately *fell* onto the floor immediately below it. This was too much for the still stable core below the core failure. Another core failure immediately occurs just below the first. The entire building collapses as the failures continue down the core as each failure triggers a subsequent failure from the falling mass from above. The failures accelerate as the building above the failures accelerates under the force of gravity. In seconds the building is a pile of rubble on the ground.

That's how it happened, folks. No controlled explosives needed. No disappearing airliners. No missiles. Just plain ol' catastrophic failure due to lunatics flying large airliners into the buildings.

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petgoat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-23-06 06:33 PM
Response to Reply #282
299. 'MIHOP making things up.'
NIST has not one piece of core steel showing heating above 250 C. The core structure was a giant
heat sink.

Neither the outer walls nor the central core was sufficient on its own to hold the towers up.

Baloney. If the core was overdesigned by a factor of three, it was plenty strong to hold the whole building up.

the fracture of the outer walls made a situation where significant additional force had to be borne by the central core.

Vertical loads "bridge" around holes. Also, the columns across the building took the holed wall
stresses in tension, mediated through the hat truss.

Differential heating deformed the floor elements

Differential heating does not make a barbeque collapse into its own footprint. Collapsing floors
would not tear the core down all the way to the ground. 47 14" X 36" inch steel
columns extensively cross-braced.

The building above this core failure immediately *fell* onto the floor immediately below it.

The building turned to dust in mid-air. Witnesses heard explosions and saw flashes of light.


They kept the FEMA investigators away from the site, they've kept the blueprints a secret, they
destroyed the steel, they've truncated the computer model in space and time and then claimed that
it proves what in fact it only assumes. Why did they do any of this if your story is true?






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longship Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-23-06 09:19 PM
Response to Reply #299
312. hmmm
The building turned to dust in mid-air. Witnesses heard explosions and saw flashes of light.

You've obviously never experienced a catastrophic failure of reinforced concrete support pillar in an engineering lab. It is, in every way, equivalent to a controlled demolition one. There is a very loud bang, a cloud of high speed ejecta consisting of pulverized material, and a verticle impulse in the downward direction as potential energy is instantly converted into kinetic.

So why in the Sam Hell should I believe in the controlled demo theory when I have a perfectly satisfactory explanation of what you describe without having to accept all the extra baggage that controlled collapse entails?

The answer is that I shouldn't. So, I don't. I'll take the scientific route and accept the simple theory.

Are all the questions answered? No, but at least I don't have to believe in Santa Claus planting invisible explosives.
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petgoat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-24-06 05:25 AM
Response to Reply #312
327. There you go again.
First off, there was no structural concrete in the WTC, except in the basement.
So your concrete-in-the-press schtick, while impressive, is irrelevant, and not at
all a "perfectly satisfactory explanation."

As for your "invisible explosives" this is a complete straw man. Nobody is asserting
invisible explosives. Some people are asserting that visible explosives could have been
hidden in elevator shafts, on vacant floors, above suspended ceilings, and in utility
rooms.

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Twist_U_Up Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-23-06 08:53 PM
Response to Reply #282
310. If thats the case
the walls would have buckled out not in.Blowing shit everywhere. It wasnt everything fell neatly into its own footprint

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longship Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-23-06 04:04 PM
Response to Reply #34
267. Plus, the building is not strong laterally.
The building is designed to exist in an environment where the forces (gravity) are downward. In fact, that's part of what keeps the building together. The forces and stresses are transferred down through the support elements to the ground. In the case of the WTC, the support was a system composed of the outer walls and the core connected by the floor supports. Neither the core, nor the outer walls themself was sufficient to keep the building up. It took the combined structure to maintain the building's integrity.

If, for some reason, the building would attempt to topple like a domino the lateral forces on the building would increase to the point where the shear forces would rip the building apart since it was not engineered to sustain those kind of forces. For example, a wind beyond a certain velocity would do the same thing. The force of gravity on a domino toppling building would be far, far higher than any wind one could imagine.
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upi402 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-23-06 01:15 AM
Response to Reply #10
73. Good pic of the shell and core going up
The elevator shafts are usually inside the main steel structural columns. They have solid core sheetrock now, but I wouldn't imagine the fireproof shaft would withstand a commercial jet and its ignited fuel burning. Anyhow, it must have been plaster originally. I wonder if there was a rehab and the shafts were rocked at that time? Now they use some form of monocoat, not asbestos, that sprays on the iron. It's supposed to protect against a typical fire for a while.

The plane that hit mostly to the outside -didn't the plane make it to the core? I thought it did. I've tried to imagine what combustibles in the building could have confligrated so the other side would burn evenly too. Seemed like it should topple to the side to me.

Is the Empire State Building all concrete? Does concrete deteriorate structurally at a lower temp and duration of heat than steel. I don't know. It would be interesting. Did the bomber hit is dead-on? Those things burn fuel very very fast, but if it had just left base it would have a lot of fuel aboard.

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longship Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-23-06 03:34 PM
Response to Reply #73
256. Good questions.
Edited on Thu Feb-23-06 03:35 PM by longship
Thanks for thinking before asking.

The fire retardant on some of the floor supports was blasted off by the collision. This is why the heat of the fire was able to deform the supports sufficiently for the connections between the core and the outer walls to fail, which resulted in the collapse of the core members at that same level. Once that happens, the entire building is going to collapse downward. There'd be no stopping it as the floors above subsequently *fall* on floors below. The stress of the falling floors above would instantly trigger a failure in the core supports at the level below and the building would continue to collapse like that until it all found the ground level.

The National Geographic special on the forensics of the collapse was excellent. They show parts of the plane of WTC 1 penetrating the core. At any rate the relase of 2 billion joules of energy from the collision alone would likely damage the core. Certainly the sheet rock around the core would not be any resistance to an energy of that level.

Note that counter to MIHOP claims, the heat does *NOT* have to be to the steel melting point for steel to deform. All that is required is a *differential* heating where one side of the beam is heated differently than the other side. The heated side expands at a different rate than the cooler side and the beam bends. This can happen well below the melting point.
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karlrschneider Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-23-06 01:23 AM
Response to Reply #10
88. The Empire State Bldg was hit by a B-25 which is less than 1/10 the size
& weight of a 767 and was flying slowly. The ratios of kinetic energy were somewhere in the neighboorhood of 50:1. And the North tower actually -did- START to tip over but gravity and the downward acceleration kept it descending virtually straight down. If someone wanted to cause maximum destruction (using demolition) they would obviously place the charges to INSURE it would "fall over" onto other structures instead of the way it (they) did.
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Twist_U_Up Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-23-06 01:30 AM
Response to Reply #88
96. Silverstein owned all 7 buildings
the only buildings that where really damaged and he just bought them 6 mos prior and he opened up a huge insurance claim including TERRORIST ATTACK

go figure
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karlrschneider Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-23-06 01:47 AM
Response to Reply #96
116. Do you have a link to that? I never heard it.
Thanks
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-23-06 01:55 AM
Response to Reply #116
124. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
karlrschneider Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-23-06 02:20 AM
Response to Reply #124
142. Okay, I read it. Putting the word "fortuitously" in quotes (as I just did
Is a clear sign that the author is attempting to cast doubt and imply something he provides no evidence for. Of course Silverstein would have insured them...who wouldn't?...against any imaginable risk. The only logical conclusion this leads to is that Silverstein had a hand in their destruction. He would have known, unless he's a complete idiot, that the insurance people would certainly investigate that possibility...and that he was eventually paid the bulk of the indemnity tells me that -they- (with a bucket of money to lose) were satisfied otherwise.

I would like for someone to explain to me just how someone could have gotten the kind of access to plant explosives in those buildings without being 'noticed.' Especially given the high security implemented after the 1992 basement bombing...
:eyes:
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Twist_U_Up Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-23-06 02:30 AM
Response to Reply #142
143. Marvin Bush
He was Head Security Guy Took over six Months before 9/11 and resigned the day before. no joke

marvin is dubyas brother
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Twist_U_Up Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-23-06 02:32 AM
Response to Reply #142
144. There where 3 or 4 evacuations also
a few weeks before and up until 9/11 there where security drills that evacuated the building AND shut the power off in each case.

there have been no tapes provided for that time
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beam me up scottie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-23-06 02:41 AM
Response to Reply #142
149. If you trace that line of thought,
it ends up leading you back to the right wing conspiracists who claim "elite world bankers" are behind 911.

They also claim that Israel had prior knowledge and that jews didn't go to work at the Trade Center that day.

It's pretty fucking nasty, too bad so many people here don't bother doing any real research to find out where these rumors come from.


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Twist_U_Up Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-23-06 02:45 AM
Response to Reply #149
151. I agree people need to look around more
these are some nasty nasty times we are in.
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beam me up scottie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-23-06 02:57 AM
Response to Reply #151
155. I'm done in here.
I have not the stomach nor the masochistic streak necessary to navigate this forum.

Please try to find out who is behind these rumours before you repeat them.

Some 911 conspiracists really do want the truth, others are using this issue to spread reichwing propaganda.

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petgoat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-23-06 04:18 PM
Response to Reply #149
272. find out where these rumors come from.
Partly they come from the "dancing Israelis" in Liberty Park who were celebrating
as they videotaped the WTC plane strike. They were reported in mainstream media.
As I recall they were jailed for 40 days and then quietly deported.

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sabbat hunter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-23-06 08:02 AM
Response to Reply #96
179. silverstein
didnt own the buildings, only leased them.
insurance only will cover costs of rebuilding the lost structures. (he got a pretty penny from the insurance companies, but given the costs of construction that money will all go into reconstruction)

after 1993 terror attack, it makes sense to take out insurance that includes terrorism
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northzax Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-24-06 01:00 AM
Response to Reply #96
317. no, silverstein leased the buildings
they were, and are, owned by the New York/New Jersey Port Authority. Silverstein signed a 99 year lease on them. And my renter's insurance policy includes terrorism, as long as the surrounding buildings aren't destroyed.

If you leased a building that had once been a victim of a terrorist attack, wouldn't you add terrorism insurance? you'd be an idiot not to, right? if you leased in a flood zone, you'd get flood insurance, right?
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sabbat hunter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-23-06 07:58 AM
Response to Reply #10
178. construction
the towers couldnt fall over at the point they were hit at, due to gravity, etc. if they were hit near ground level then that could have been a possiblity.

second building was NOT structurally sound. a great number of outer columns were taken out.

the bomber was smaller, had less fuel (and no bombs on board). did a lot of damage but due to the way the empire state building was constructed it wouldnt fall. the WTC had a entirely new design in which the weight of the building was on the outside columns, take a bunch of them out and the others would be stressed out. add in the fires from the fuel (there was still some inside after the fireball) and the structure would be heated and weakned (you dont need the steel to melt, it starts losing its integrety before it melts)

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longship Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-23-06 02:46 PM
Response to Reply #10
240. Re: to (sic) many columns
Edited on Thu Feb-23-06 02:51 PM by longship
The WTC towers were not held up by the central core columns, my friend. That's what made it a revolutionary design. The steel outer walls contributed significant support. Part of this outer wall support was floor members which held the outer walls to the core. Thus, the floors were an intregal part of what kept the building up. Stress could be translated either through the core, or through the floors to the outer walls. Without this additional support, the central columns by themselves were insufficient to support the building. The failure of these elements is precisely why the damned things collapsed.

With the outer structure punctured by the collisions, additional stress naturally transferred to the ground through the central support columns. (After all, unless the tower was to collapse immediately that added stress would have to find its way to a support). This put severe additional strain on the central columns, but not enough for them to fail. Subsequent failure of the floor supports which helped transfer stresses between the outer shell and the core added additional stress to the core that they failed catastrophically.

In a thousandth of a second the core columns would explosively fracture ejecting pulverized concrete and broken rebar at very high speeds. The stresses instantly released, the structure above the fracture would instantly accelerate downward (since there would be no more support).

Now we have part of a building falling toward the next support opportunity, which was the floor immediately below the failure. Now, the core at that level would have to take the additional stress from above, plus the force of the impact of the falling building from above. This would be well above what that support could take. It would fail catastrophically, too.

At each subsequently lower level, the support is required to support an ever increasing mass which is ever-accelerating in the same direction. As the collapse proceeds, the failures come more quickly to the point that they are instant. The building ends up collapsing like an apple falling from a tree with the acceleration of gravity dominating over all other forces, including those trying to keep the building up.

No controlled demolitions are necessary. I must invoke parsimony here. There were no controlled demolitions.

Citing the Empire State Building incident from 1945 is a non-sequitor. It has nothing to do with the WTC collapse.
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drm604 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-23-06 12:23 AM
Response to Original message
11. That's not a radical statement at all.
It fits with the facts. The unsupported conspiracy theories that some promulgate on this board do not help us. They just give the right something to use against DU.

People will be along soon enough to criticize you about this. Ignore them, you're correct.
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bpilgrim Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-23-06 12:26 AM
Response to Reply #11
13. Mike Malloy interviews author of "THE NEW PEARL HARBOR" - > mp3
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benburch Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-23-06 12:29 AM
Response to Reply #13
17. I heard that.
And he is right about there being a cover up. A coverup of how we enabled the terrorists is my vote. Bush Let This Happen, hoping for his Reichstag Fire.
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bpilgrim Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-23-06 12:34 AM
Response to Reply #17
25. no way a few madmen could pull off all that...
only insiders had that capability.

imho

peace
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benburch Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-23-06 12:27 AM
Response to Reply #11
14. Thank you!
I worked this out the day it happened. Had to re-create it today because I couldn't find the essay I wrote (but did not publish) back then.
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bpilgrim Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-23-06 12:32 AM
Response to Reply #14
22. there is your problem...
"I worked this out the day it happened"

2 quick on the draw...

after 5 years there is more than enough cumulative evidence to determine CD.

WTC7 came down symetrically...
http://news.globalfreepress.com/movs/wtc7.swf

to begin with, but there is so much more...

peace
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ConsAreLiars Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-23-06 12:30 AM
Response to Original message
18. There was a similar, but much more detailed, analysis done by
structural engineers. Big PDF file. You summarized the essentials very nicely.

For me the idea that "they" had explosives pre-planted in the buildings in the very areas the planes hit is laughable on its face - a true example of faith-based self-deception, at best. I watched the raw coverage throughout that day, and the fact that this gang of monsters let it happen is enough to hang them all.
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ConsAreLiars Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-23-06 12:55 AM
Response to Reply #18
44. Here's the summary in Scientific American
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petgoat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-23-06 04:54 AM
Response to Reply #18
161. explosives pre-planted in the buildings in the very areas the planes hit
A radio beacon planted in the building would put the planes right on target.

Radio-controlled detonators would allow the detonation sequence to be edited
after the planes hit.

Sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic.
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sabbat hunter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-23-06 09:31 AM
Response to Reply #161
189. radio controlled?
even a radio becon is not 100 % accurate. even a little off in your theory and it would distrupt the wiring for the explosives and cause them not to go off.

when you demolish a building you do it from the bottom up not top down.

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petgoat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-23-06 03:25 PM
Response to Reply #189
252. When you put your pants on it's left leg first, then right.
Edited on Thu Feb-23-06 03:29 PM by petgoat
Right leg first is impossible. You'll trip and fall on your face.

a radio becon is not 100 % accurate

Nothing is. Your point? Radio beacons guide planes to runways; why can't they
guide planes to buildings?

it would distrupt the wiring for the explosives

Since the need for the beacon vanished an hour before the need for
explosives, this is not an issue.

You're trying real hard to make up reasons stuff is impossible, but the fact is,
it's not.
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sabbat hunter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-23-06 03:47 PM
Response to Reply #252
260. im sorry
i wasnt clear. what i meant was that the planes hitting the buildings would distrupt aka destroy the wirings for the explosives if they got hit.

do you think the current regime is competant enough for MIHOP?
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petgoat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-23-06 04:26 PM
Response to Reply #260
273. im sorry too
I wasn't clear either. My answer to yout concern about disrupted wiring should have been
"what wiring?" Radio control would allow flexible reprogramming of the detonation sequence.

Is the current regime competant enough for MIHOP? My major problem with MIHOP used to be
"If this was a conspiracy, couldn't they have had better cover stories than Bush reading a
book, Rummy playing Florence Nightengale, Myers without his cell phone, and Cheney watching
TV?"

Disruption of the air defense through war games seems pretty simple. The question is not
competence, it's "Is this regime loony enough for MIHOP?" Assume they're loony enough to
want to do it, and then you can believe they're loony enough to screw it up like they did.
After all, these are the Einsteins that let Osama get away and invaded the wrong country
and let New Orleans flood, and think we can deficit-spend our way into prosperity.




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sabbat hunter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-23-06 04:39 PM
Response to Reply #273
277. got a laugh
i got a laugh out of the last paragraph, perhaps a pyrric one :P

and i do put my pants on one leg at a time, and i have started with my left leg without falling over ;)

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Twist_U_Up Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-23-06 12:31 AM
Response to Original message
20. Heres some science
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benburch Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-23-06 12:32 AM
Response to Reply #20
23. Bad science. I know that report well.
They are totally wrong.
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Twist_U_Up Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-23-06 12:38 AM
Response to Reply #23
29. answer me this then
why did they have the same demo team that cleaned up Oklahoma bombing in charge of WTC cleanup and why none of the steel was saved for analysis ?
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benburch Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-23-06 01:00 AM
Response to Reply #29
49. Samples of steel WERE saved.
And went to NIST.
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Twist_U_Up Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-23-06 02:47 AM
Response to Reply #49
152. For govt. analysis, noone else, sent the rest to china
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longship Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-23-06 02:57 PM
Response to Reply #152
243. That's just not true.
Whenever the facts are inconvenient, MIHOPers make stuff up.

There were numerous independant studies of the WTC collapse. Try using Google some day when you have some time.
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petgoat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-23-06 04:28 PM
Response to Reply #243
274. numerous independant studies of the WTC collapse.
Got links?

How many of them got steel samples? How many of them got the blueprints? How many of them got
access to the site as the pile was being taken apart? How many of them got to take photographs?

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petgoat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-23-06 04:52 AM
Response to Reply #49
160. NIST steel samples.
NIST has not one piece of core steel showing heating about 250 degrees C.

Not one. Since all the steel was stamped with ID numbers, the pieces of
interest could have been recovered, had the will been there.
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longship Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-23-06 02:56 PM
Response to Reply #29
242. Uh, because they were experienced in removing debris?
Steel *was* saved for analysis as the many academic studies of the WTC collapse would attest to.
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petgoat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-23-06 04:32 PM
Response to Reply #242
275.  Steel was Saved
It just wasn't the right steel. Not one of NIST's core steel samples shows heating
above 250 degrees C.

Every piece of steel had a stamped ID number, so they could have easily saved every piece
from the impace zone and set it up in a vacant lot and reassmbled it like a wrecked aircraft.
Instead they dumped it on barges and shipped it to India.

many academic studies of the WTC collapse

Got links? You're talking about that MIT "memorial wall" stuff, right?
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longship Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-23-06 04:33 PM
Response to Reply #275
276. Google's your friend.
Google it.
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petgoat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-23-06 06:35 PM
Response to Reply #276
301. I have been googling it a long time. You're the one making
claims of "numerous academic studies". Do you know what you're talking about or not?

A good chunk of my life I've been debating people who wave fat books at me that they haven't
read, claiming that they say things they don't say. And Google is the fattest book of them
all.
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Twist_U_Up Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-23-06 08:00 PM
Response to Reply #301
305. bingo he wont provide the stated . never has
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karlrschneider Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-23-06 01:53 AM
Response to Reply #20
122. Sorry, but I don't trust this guy, he doesn't even know what thermite IS:
from the piece: "Thermite is a mixture of iron oxide and aluminum powder. "

He has it ass backward...it's Al2O3 and Fe (Aluminum oxide and iron)
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benburch Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-23-06 10:45 AM
Response to Reply #122
197. Good catch.
You know, aluminum powder CANNOT be anything except AL2O3 in the atmosphere. Aluminum is a VERY reactive metal.

Fortunately for aluminum structures everywhere, AL2O3 is a glass, and impervious to air, and forms a coating on the metal that prevents it from rusting away.
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petgoat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-24-06 03:14 PM
Response to Reply #122
338. You just want to play gotcha. Dr. Jones is not a chemist, nor
is he an explosives expert. He's had to absorb and process a whole hell of a lot of information
in a short period of time, and it's not surprising that he slips up here and there.

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berni_mccoy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-23-06 12:32 AM
Response to Original message
21. BIG ERROR: 500,000 tons = 453,592,500 KG
The mass of BOTH TOWERS TOGETHER is 900 million KG, so the TOTAL ENERGY OF BOTH COLLAPSES is 1.8 trillion Joules.

You said: "So the mass of one tower of the WTC falling was the equivalent of a half-kiloton atom bomb."

But the mass of one tower of the WTC falling released a potential energy that is less than ONE FOURTH, not ONE HALF.
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benburch Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-23-06 12:35 AM
Response to Reply #21
26. No. 500,000 tons was EACH TOWER...
Edited on Thu Feb-23-06 12:35 AM by benburch
A ton is 2000 lbs.

This is 1,000,000,000 pounds, 453,592,370 kg. DOUBLED to account for CONTENTS. (Which might be conservative...)
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berni_mccoy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-23-06 12:45 AM
Response to Reply #26
31. Then you have inconsistent statements

Ok, Each tower is 500,000 tons. 1 ton = 2000 lbs = 907 kg. 500,000 Tons = 453,592,370 kg.

Each Tower therefore had 889,041,300,000 Joules or 0.89 TerraJoules (TJ).

Both Towers TOGETHER therefore is 1.78 TJ which is less than HALF a 1 Kiloton explosion (over 4 TJs).
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benburch Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-23-06 01:05 AM
Response to Reply #31
52. NO...
You gotta double the mass, which was structure only, to account for the contents.

Indeed, contents may have been more than the whole mass of the structure, but I am being conservative.

Contents includes all non-structural walls (sheetrock and tin) and desks, chairs, computers, watercoolers, people, electrical wiring etc.

The billion pounds per tower mass estimate was JUST for the structure itself, and came from a couple of different places.
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berni_mccoy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-23-06 01:21 AM
Response to Reply #52
86. You'll have to provide some evidence that the live load of a building
Doubles it's weight. Here is at least one discussion quoting studies done on the collapse that gives a lesser mass: http://lofi.forum.physorg.com/What-was-the-weight-of-a-WTC-Tower_4299.html

Furthermore, most sites that discuss the physics of this give 500,000 tons as the best estimate for the live load, not the structure. This site (among others) http://www.ussartf.org/world_trade_center_disaster.htm quotes that each tower had 100,000 of steel. That leaves 400,000 tons per tower for everything else.

500,000 tons per tower is the accepted value for most physics discussions/simulations.

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benburch Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-23-06 01:30 AM
Response to Reply #86
97. Even if true, the result does not change.
It is of the same order of magnitude effect, a 50% drop.

In fact, i believe that 10% of what I calculated would be sufficient to cause the failure we saw.

I'll go look up my floor loading sources again, as I last researched this in 2002, and wrote this from memory tonight.

But I'll stand by my 2 billion pound estimate for now, and will happily see any cites you care to make.
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berni_mccoy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-23-06 01:33 AM
Response to Reply #97
103. Ok, now you are just plain wrong
A 50% drop in your original number is 100% ERROR.

And it's totally wrong to compare the collapse with a nuclear bomb. No other reason to do that but shock value.
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benburch Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-23-06 01:39 AM
Response to Reply #103
111. No, a 100% error would be ZERO. nt
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benburch Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-23-06 01:44 AM
Response to Reply #111
112. Oh, and would comparing it to 250 tons of high explosive be enough...
to make you happy? Most people have never seen even 20 tons of high explosive go off, so putting it in terms of a tactical nuclear weapon gives them the right scale of things.

McVey had a 5 ton truck at Oklahoma city. Even if your mass numbers are correct, this is like 50 five ton trucks full of TNT.
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berni_mccoy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-23-06 02:02 AM
Response to Reply #112
131. Well now that you bring it up...
You could have laid out a very compelling argument using the OKC bombing. The energy in that bomb was 0.002 kt, very small compared to the energy released in the collapse. But that explosion was DEVASTATING and took out a quarter of the building. The energy released in the WTC was about 400 times that at least. Now that's some compelling evidence for the collapse of WTC 7.
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benburch Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-23-06 02:05 AM
Response to Reply #131
135. Good point!
And when I revise my article, I'll use it.

Thanks! :hi:
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berni_mccoy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-23-06 01:58 AM
Response to Reply #111
128. Doubling something is adding 100% of a value to itself.
That's 100% error if the correct value was accidently doubled.

I'm not looking to upset you Ben. I am just pointing out errors that I see in your math. I missed your paragraph about the assumption that the building is holding 500,000 tons in contents. I believe that number is also incorrect, but that I can't say for sure.
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benburch Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-23-06 02:04 AM
Response to Reply #128
133. Depends on which side of the error you look from...
And I have no issue with you questioning my math!

I'll allow for argument that one billion pounds straight up is the right number.

That is still equivalent to a fleet of OKC Ryder Trucks full of TNT. MUCH more than they are reputed to have snuck into the WTC in the conspiracy theories.

I put it in terms of a tac nuke originally for want of any analogy to the magnitude of this force that I could expect the reader to grasp. Though now that I have thought of the Ryder Truck analogy, I will stick with that one.
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Kevin Fenton Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-23-06 05:37 AM
Response to Reply #128
169. Weight of one tower = 250,000 tons including everything,
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benburch Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-23-06 10:46 AM
Response to Reply #169
199. I used that number in my revised essay. nt
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Twist_U_Up Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-23-06 12:06 PM
Response to Reply #199
208. back peddle quick !!
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Twist_U_Up Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-23-06 12:08 PM
Response to Reply #128
209. 500,000 tons in contents
Edited on Thu Feb-23-06 12:09 PM by Twist_U_Up
dispersed throughout the entire building, only a few thousand pounds per floor. IT WASN'T ALL AT THE TOP causing the pancake theory.
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RUMMYisFROSTED Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-23-06 12:37 AM
Response to Original message
28. Hmmm.
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Speck Tater Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-23-06 12:39 AM
Response to Original message
30. Finally, the voice of reason.
People want so badly to believe their pet dogma that they ignore basic physics (which isn't hard if you don't know basic physics!) Especially those who say the building would have toppled to the side. That's preposterous. They are thinking of cutting down a tree, which falls to the side because the tree cutter cuts it in a way that forces it that way, and because it's mass is not anywhere near as great as the WTC, and because it has a great deal of it's mass distributed laterally in the branches, so it is "balanced" on its stump and trying to tip over to begin with. But to think a building would fall over on it's side just because an unbalanced cut tree does is just preposterous, and something only a non-physicist would claim.

I've always put the bomb theory people in the same boat with the intelligent design people. They think it works for them because they ignore basic science. "Life is too complex, therefore...God", "Somebody heard a boom, therefore... bomb." Just silly.
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berni_mccoy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-23-06 12:48 AM
Response to Reply #30
36. Unfortunately, his math is 100% wrong.
He doubled the calculation. Total energy from both towers together is less than 1/2 a 1 Kiloton bomb. The Nukes that took out Hiroshima were 12-15 KT.
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benburch Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-23-06 01:07 AM
Response to Reply #36
55. Nope. You misread. nt
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berni_mccoy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-23-06 01:30 AM
Response to Reply #55
98. Where do you say anything in your O.P. about doubling the weight
for contents?
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benburch Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-23-06 01:33 AM
Response to Reply #98
104. pp 7 nt
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berni_mccoy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-23-06 01:38 AM
Response to Reply #104
109. Must have been added after I read the O.P.
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benburch Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-23-06 01:52 AM
Response to Reply #109
121. I had some square brackets in there...
they made some of the text disappear for a while. The DU html engine did something odd with them.
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northzax Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-23-06 12:45 AM
Response to Original message
32. you know, Ben, you and I
don't agree on much, I suppose, but this is just plain simple. I did the calculations once for kicks while moderating the 9/11 forum a long time ago. it works. I actually worked on the velocity and force of the collapsing floors, it's pretty impressive.

but math and tinfoil don't work together all that well.
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benburch Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-23-06 12:46 AM
Response to Reply #32
33. We agree on enough.
Wouldn't want to always agree. What's the fun in that?
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kster Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-23-06 12:48 AM
Response to Original message
35. The top floors acted like a
hammer to take down the building possibly, but what about the steel beams they would not come down with the hammer effect, what you would have, would be like them old record players, you would put albums on top of the metal shaft and they would drop as the albums where played, The albums would be the building and the shaft would be the beams. If the building was taken down by the hammer effect there would still be beams sticking straight into the sky. I don't remember any. Do you?
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benburch Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-23-06 12:52 AM
Response to Reply #35
39. This was a force of a magnitude that steel could not withstand. nt
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kster Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-23-06 01:25 AM
Response to Reply #39
93. Not all the beams had the same force on them
the center ones took most of the load on the way down, but the outer ones not so much. The outer beams would still be standing or bent over, but there still should have been beams visible. According to your theory.
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SnoopDog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-23-06 12:48 AM
Response to Original message
37. Ok... Big fucking deal...
So, maybe, indeed that two planes crash into two buildings and THREE buildings fell just like a controlled demolition.

Why does the Pentagon 'plane crash' look more like a missile?
Why won't they show the video from the gas station and the hotel?
Why were there no fighters to shoot them down?
Why did the secret service not whisk away the president when that obvious 'attack' on America was in progress?

Independent on your physics, the logic of the other occurrences do not follow - at all....
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Skip Intro Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-23-06 12:49 AM
Response to Original message
38. I'm sorry. Some thoughts, but first a question -
Edited on Thu Feb-23-06 12:50 AM by Skip Intro
How does the passport of one of the supposed perps survive all that?

I saw 9*11, read and read about 9*11 heavily for at least a year (that's how I found DU, actually), and have read accounts on how the planes COULDN"T have taken the towers down as detailed as your account on why they HAD to.

What does it for me tho isn't' the technical could have/couldn't have/would have/wouldn't have arguments. What gets me isn't the physical reality of what happened. What gets me is the WHO.

See, somebody did 9*11. Somebody planned it, allowed it to happen, somebody DIDN'T go after those (supposedly) responsible, somebody used the disaster as a siphon for the People's money and power.

Who?

Who benefited from the 9*11 attacks?

Can you see why that question - that line of thought, is really more revealing that the physics of why skyscrapers, supposedly built to withstand hits from planes, fall in a certain way.

They sure looked like a controlled demolition to me. I've seen a few. But...Who benefited?

The ONLY people that benefited from 9*11 are the thugs in the bush regime. It IS theirs. They use it, they wallow in it.

Combine that with what we've seen from this lying, un-American, treasonous pack of criminals, and I'm sorry.

No bombs? Ok. There are sites that will state, in greater detail that you have here, that there's no question bombs were present.

How the towers were brought down is not nearly as important as who brought them down.

Its not a tidy thing.

And we still haven't gotten to why...

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Blackthorn Donating Member (675 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-23-06 12:53 AM
Response to Reply #38
41. Exactly.
This kind of talk does nothing but reinforce the notion that Bush was "reacting" to 9/11. Rubbish. The repsonses on the day of Dick Cheney and Donald Rumsfeld clearly indicate someone watching their handiwork, rather than someone reacting to a national emergency.

9/11 was an inside job. Deal with it.
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benburch Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-23-06 12:54 AM
Response to Reply #38
43. I'm not trying to explain the WHY.
Just the how.

WHY is not a fitting subject for any science other than psychology.
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Skip Intro Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-23-06 12:56 AM
Response to Reply #43
47. oh - ok.
Edited on Thu Feb-23-06 12:57 AM by Skip Intro
:yoiks:

just felt compelled
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tatertop Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-23-06 01:04 AM
Response to Reply #38
51. That is exactly my take on it
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JohnnyRingo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-23-06 12:53 AM
Response to Original message
40. I agree....As much as I enjoy the occasional conspiracy theory...
and keeping in mind that most conspiracy theories are base in conspiracy facts, I think the Neocons are getting a little too much credit for pulling this one off. They're gonna get a big head over it I fear.

Most of these theories require ommission of some facts while highlighting others that make your case.

Demolished buildings collapse from the bottom floor up, and those little blasts jetting from the sides are probably compressed air blasting out windows.

The 'Cons are great thinkers, but they severely lack in doing, bringing down the towers is a monumental task. Look at their track record.


I don't think they orchestrated the tower collapse to make an excuse to invade Iraq...

I think they just took advantage of the disaster and a vengeful American public to head to a war they always wanted and to empty the treasury.
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eridani Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-23-06 12:54 AM
Response to Original message
42. This explanation works fine for the two towers
--a lot weaker for WTC 7, though. And what did the building owner mean when he said to "pull" the building?
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benburch Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-23-06 12:55 AM
Response to Reply #42
45. I always took it to mean that he wanted to pull the firefighters.
For fear of the collapse he saw coming from the deformation of his building.

WTC 7 I explained above. A Pyroclastic pulse is no joke.
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eridani Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-23-06 01:14 AM
Response to Reply #45
67. Why didn't he say that, then?
Just saying to "pull" a building has a specific meaning to CD professionals.
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benburch Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-23-06 01:15 AM
Response to Reply #67
74. And to firefighters. Or so one told me. nt
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petgoat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-23-06 04:53 PM
Response to Reply #74
280. They didn't fight the WTC7 fire. There were no firefighters to pull nm
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petgoat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-23-06 05:00 AM
Response to Reply #45
162.  he wanted to pull the firefighters.
But there weren't any firefighters to pull. They never made any effort
whatsoever to fight the WTC7 fire.

So the idea that they issued an order to pull the nonexistent firefighters
makes no sense.
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berni_mccoy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-23-06 01:02 AM
Response to Original message
50. Sorry Ben, but you're math has 100% error in it
You've accidently doubled the result. See my post above.

Even so, this would be a very small "nuke". Using verbage like a 'half kiloton atom bomb' is overdramatizing what physically happened. The nuke that was used on Hiroshima was 12-15 Kilotons. We don't even have nukes this small any more. The smallest nuke ever was the Davy Crockett tactical nuke from the late 1950's varied from 0.01 to 1 Kt. 10 - 20 tons is the absolute minimum yield from a reaction like that and it's purpose was more to create a short-term radiation field moreso than to cause damage. Only 2100 were made.

At any rate, I agree that there was a great deal of energy released, but comparing it to a nuclear blast just isn't reasonable.
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benburch Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-23-06 01:06 AM
Response to Reply #50
54. Nope. You didn't read the text accurately.
See my reply, above.
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berni_mccoy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-23-06 01:25 AM
Response to Reply #54
91. Even if I give you the benefit of the doubt and even though you never
mentioned doubling the load with the contents in your O.P., that's still less than a 1 kt equivalent. (and if you read my response to your response above, you'll see that 500,000 tons is the accepted live load for most physics discussions about the wtc). And that's still no comparison for a nuclear blast. You are overdramatizing the physics that happened by using big numbers and relating them to something that doesn't exist that seems devastating. When people think atom bomb, they think Hiroshima or worse. They don't think of something 1/12th to 1/15th or much smaller than that.
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karlrschneider Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-23-06 01:05 AM
Response to Original message
53. I didn't double check your math but it looks right. As an aeronautical en
gineer & commercial pilot (both for over 40 years) I agree completely with
your analysis. I know a fair number of DUers don't believe it, but physics aside, if somebody wanted to knock them down with explosives (and if they were somehow able to 'place' them completely undetected), why bother with airplanes? And if anybody thinks they could have accomplished -that-, not to mention how it could be done in the Pentagon, well, they're just nuts.
Okay, now there are 2 of us you guys can flame. :D
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Twist_U_Up Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-23-06 01:08 AM
Response to Reply #53
57. Have you ever seen Loose Change 1 or 2 ?
you might want to spend an hour and look at another persons veiw.

just sayin
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benburch Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-23-06 01:08 AM
Response to Reply #53
58. Thanks!
Looks like I can use the support.

Next thing you know, I'll be painted as a member of PNAC.
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Twist_U_Up Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-23-06 02:43 AM
Response to Reply #53
150. They needed a "Pearl Harbor"type event
ever heard of PNAC ?
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petgoat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-23-06 04:48 PM
Response to Reply #53
278. why bother with airplanes?
Easy. The point is terrorism, right? Not jusy blowing up the WTC. Creating a world of threat. Making ubiquitous objects--airplanes--threatening.

If they just blew up the WTC, all that would mean is the building security screwed up. (Marvin
Bush's security company, Securicom.)

not to mention how it could be done in the Pentagon, well, they're just nuts.

Ever hear of the battleship Maine?
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OneBlueSky Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-23-06 01:08 AM
Response to Original message
56. the towers didn't fall . . . they dissolved . . .
and no amount of jet fuel or gravitational energy or anything else other than high explosives could cause that . . .
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benburch Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-23-06 01:09 AM
Response to Reply #56
59. Yes, actually, they do.
I just proved that.
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OneBlueSky Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-23-06 01:25 AM
Response to Reply #59
92. and what caused the masses of smoldering molton steel . . .
in the basements that burned for THREE WEEKS following the attacks . . . wasn't jet fuel OR gravity, no matter how you parse it (which is, btw, much different than proving it) . . .
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greyl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-23-06 02:17 AM
Response to Reply #92
141. Where the hell do you get the idea
that the 3 week smoldering would only happen if bombs caused the collapse?

Is that what happens at controlled demolition sites?
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greyl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-23-06 01:15 AM
Response to Reply #56
72. They did not dissolve.
They did not turn into nothing but fine powder.
Anyway, bombs don't make buildings dissolve - so was it an alphasonic laser?
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benburch Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-23-06 01:19 AM
Response to Reply #72
82. Must have been Godzilla. nt
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Twist_U_Up Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-23-06 01:10 AM
Response to Original message
61. Molten Steel before the collapse
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Twist_U_Up Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-23-06 01:12 AM
Response to Reply #61
64. or this one
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Twist_U_Up Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-23-06 01:14 AM
Response to Reply #64
68. or this one
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Twist_U_Up Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-23-06 01:36 AM
Response to Reply #68
107. or this one
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stevietheman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-23-06 10:32 AM
Response to Reply #61
192. Exactly.
Jet fuel burns nowhere near hot enough to produce molten steel.

Further, it has been widely reported that the guy who operated WTC7 called for it to be brought down -- now how did he do that w/o previously planted explosives?
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soothsayer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-23-06 01:11 AM
Response to Original message
62. What airliner hit tower 7?
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benburch Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-23-06 01:14 AM
Response to Reply #62
69. Both of them! Indirectly.
Did you even read what I wrote?

WTC 7 was hit by two rounds of high velocity ejecta and two synthetic pyroclastic pulses.
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Twist_U_Up Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-23-06 12:04 PM
Response to Reply #69
207. LOL you amaze me
It was blown over like the big bad wolf and the three pigs.

unfortuneatly the wolf never blew over the brick house.
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libertypirate Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-23-06 01:11 AM
Response to Original message
63. Oh goodie another lesson
Hey but just go ahead and ignore the taped accounts taken the day of which said they heard explosions. You go on believing, shine on brother, shine on it sure feels nice when ignorance is bliss. Don't take my word check out the what the professor has to say at the bottom.

If you had any balls you might try and comprehend what this man has taken the time and written, before assuming that you already know all the facts and shining me and everyone else on.

http://www.physics.byu.edu/research/energy/htm7.html
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dailykoff Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-23-06 01:13 AM
Response to Original message
66. A delightful fantasia. Why not set it to music.
As for the physics, I'd better not go there. :)
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benburch Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-23-06 01:14 AM
Response to Reply #66
70. Why not?
Challenge my calculations.
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dailykoff Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-23-06 01:17 AM
Response to Reply #70
78. A better word would be illusions.
Maybe another day. :)
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benburch Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-23-06 01:18 AM
Response to Reply #78
80. Because you cannot.
And you know it.

Put up or shut up.
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dailykoff Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-23-06 01:21 AM
Response to Reply #80
85. I already have, many times.
I'll play it again this weekend if you're really so eager to hear it.
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benburch Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-23-06 01:23 AM
Response to Reply #85
89. Put it in writing.
Calculations and all.

Or you are just boasting.
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dailykoff Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-23-06 01:26 AM
Response to Reply #89
95. For you, I'll repeat myself.
But not tonight. :)
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benburch Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-23-06 01:30 AM
Response to Reply #95
99. Because you cannot. nt
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dailykoff Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-23-06 01:49 AM
Response to Reply #99
118. There's no hurry.
And as long as you're here, look around. You'll find your answers.
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fearnobush Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-23-06 01:15 AM
Response to Original message
71. Thanks, Lihop yes, Mihop I doubt.
Jets did bring them down. I saw Loose Change and although it had a lot of good unxplaned Pentagon issues , I had lot of problems with the trade center collapes as a demo job. Biggest was their use of WWII B-29 that hit the Empire State building in 1946, they failed to mention the fractonal amount of fuel on that plane, the tank was near empty and the amount of fuel something like 10 times the amount a fullly loaded 767 has compared to a fully loaded B-29. The also tried to use a 707 as an example since the building were built to withsatnd a hit from one. Problem, a 767 is about 3 times the size of a 707 carrying 3 to 4 times the amount of fuel as well.
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benburch Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-23-06 01:17 AM
Response to Reply #71
79. I don't believe that WTC would have survived a loaded 707.
They just did not think of this failure mode.
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longship Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-23-06 01:36 PM
Response to Reply #79
224. Plus the 707 scenerio was a "low speed" one.
The WTC's could very well have survived a slow 707, on landing approach or take-off to/from one of the three nearby major airports. Such an airliner would be flying much, much slower. These guys were deliberately flying as fast as they could to maximize the damage. They succeeded.
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petgoat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-23-06 04:50 PM
Response to Reply #224
279. Tom Eagar said the impact was "Like a bullet hitting a tree" nm
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flyarm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-23-06 02:04 AM
Response to Reply #71
134. i do not believe your 707 facts are correct..please check them out
n/t
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petgoat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-23-06 05:04 AM
Response to Reply #71
163. a 767 is about 3 times the size of a 707
Got link for that? Jim Hoffman says it's not true.



http://911research.wtc7.net/wtc/analysis/design.html
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flyarm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-24-06 01:51 AM
Response to Reply #163
320. thats not true..n/t
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Cooley Hurd Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-23-06 01:34 PM
Response to Reply #71
223. It was a B-25, not a B-29...
A B-25 is MUCH smaller than a B-29. The wingspan of the B-25 is 67.5 ft. The wingspan of the B-29 is over 141 feet. Other than that little bit, I agree with everything else in your post. :)
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northzax Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-24-06 01:08 AM
Response to Reply #71
318. not to mention the whole Pentagon thingq
I saw the hole in the Pentagon on September 12 (I saw the smoke from my balcony) it was visible from the freeway. It is the right sixe for the fuselage of the plane that hit it, followed by a fire. You would have needed an incredibly wide missile to create that hole (the wings were sheared, simple physics). There was no explosion at the Pentagon, it was obvious.
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Rainscents Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-23-06 01:30 AM
Response to Original message
100. I don't buy into your math!
Edited on Thu Feb-23-06 01:33 AM by Rainscents
Jet fuel doesn't heat hot enough to melt the steal beam, I worked with jet fuel! Look at the footage of buildings burning, you can clearly see black smoke was coming out of it, which mean, fire is being smoldered. There's no way, jet fuel have to burn 2400 degree to melt the steel. Your analyst is bunch of BS!
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benburch Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-23-06 01:36 AM
Response to Reply #100
108. The fuel, impact, and burning contents only needed to cause a slump.
No "melting" was required at that point, just a small deformation that then took on a life of its own due to inertia.
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Twist_U_Up Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-23-06 01:50 AM
Response to Reply #108
119. for this to happen
most of the center column had to be breached and that id virtually impossible in trade center 1 and 7
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petgoat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-23-06 05:06 AM
Response to Reply #108
165. just a small deformation
But the steel was recycled, and they never bothered to recover the piece that deformed.

And NIST has not one piece of core steel that shows heating above 250 degrees C.
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northzax Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-24-06 01:10 AM
Response to Reply #165
319. even with a controlled demolition
the sheer physics of that mass collapsing would have reached temperatures far greater than 250 degrees celcius.
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karlrschneider Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-23-06 01:45 AM
Response to Reply #100
113. Where'd you work with burning jet fuel? What type?
And who "steals" beams anymore?

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upi402 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-23-06 01:31 AM
Response to Original message
101. Noam Chomsky's opinion;
"There's by now a small industry on the thesis that the administration had something to do with 9-11. I've looked at some of it, and have often been asked. There's a weak thesis that is possible though extremely unlikely in my opinion, and a strong thesis that is close to inconceivable. The weak thesis is that they knew about it and didn't try to stop it. The strong thesis is that they were actually involved. The evidence for either thesis is, in my opinion, based on a failure to understand properly what evidence is. Even in controlled scientific experiments one finds all sorts of unexplained phenomena, strange coincidences, loose ends, apparent contradictions, etc. Read the letters in technical science journals and you'll find plenty of samples. In real world situations, chaos is overwhelming, and these will mount to the sky. That aside, they'd have had to be quite mad to try anything like that. It would have had to involve a large number of people, something would be very likely to leak, pretty quickly, they'd all be lined up before firing squads and the Republican Party would be dead forever. That would have happened whether the plan succeeded or not, and success was at best a long shot; it would have been extremely hard to predict what would happen.
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benburch Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-23-06 01:34 AM
Response to Reply #101
105. Wise man. nt
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eridani Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-23-06 02:03 AM
Response to Reply #101
132. MIHOP definitely involves a large number of people
LIHOP requires far fewer, particularly on a day when live simulations were being run of the very kind of attack that occurred.

The explosives thing would require too many people in the know, IMO. Still, the OP has done calculations for WTC 1 and 2, but not for WEC 7.
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Twist_U_Up Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-23-06 02:54 AM
Response to Reply #101
153. People said the same thing about JFK too
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petgoat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-23-06 05:10 AM
Response to Reply #101
166. It would have had to involve a large number of people
Why? The al Qaeda hijackers, maybe 40.

Rummy, Cheney, Myers--to stand down.

Scooter, Lynn, and Condi--to lie.

Someone to tell al Qaeda when the war games were scheduled.

Maybe a demolitions team to put explosives in the WTC.

How many people is that?
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rman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-23-06 07:41 AM
Response to Reply #101
176. Chomsky has "looked at some of it"
Since he's an academic, he basically doesn't do conspiracy theories, although he does do conspiracy; as in, where he finds evidence of conspiracy, during the cause of his research (as is the case of "Union busting").
But Chomsky has not researched the collapses of the buildings on 9-11.

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drm604 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-23-06 09:15 AM
Response to Reply #101
186. Thank you.
Edited on Thu Feb-23-06 09:28 AM by drm604
I've used a similar line of argument with people and it does seem to get through to them sometimes. They'd be taking huge risks for very uncertain gains. I'm certainly not defending this bunch and I wouldn't put it past some of them but I'd need some very compelling evidence before I'd believe they'd try anything this stupid.

And I really wonder why, if they were responsible, they wouldn't just do it the way it appears on the surface. Just take control of planes and fly them into buildings. The expected result may or may not have been as spectular as it was, but it still would have achieved the supposed purpose of a "Pearl Harbor type event" without all the risks and loose ends involved in pre-planting explosives, firing a missile at the Pentagon, and somehow disposing of the real plane and passengers that supposedly hit the Pentagon.

And they apparently did it all so sloppily that it can be detected by man on the street analyses without requiring any knowledge of the physics and logistics involved!

On Edit: Fixed spelling. "Pearl Harbor" not "Pear Harbor".
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MrSammo1 Donating Member (788 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-23-06 02:24 PM
Response to Reply #101
234. He's obviously never seen
Edited on Thu Feb-23-06 02:24 PM by MrSammo1
the lie at the Pentagon or Shanksville.

Or he believes in magic?


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dchill Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-23-06 06:00 PM
Response to Reply #101
292. "...they'd have had to be quite mad to try anything like that."
And you and Chomsky think they're not? Along with benburch, that makes three of you. I have eyes and I say MIHOP is closer to the truth that anything else floating to the surface of a really scummy pond.

"It would have had to involve a large number of people,..." PNAC is a large number of people. So is the BFEE. You'd have to NOT believe any of what has been researched and reported about these people to believe this train of thought.

Next you'll tell me that Dubai Ports World is a safe bet for our national security. Just like the Kuwaiti firm that had the security contract for the WTC right before 911. On the board of which sat one Marvin Bush. Just another Bush-Arab business associaion/coincidence?
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-23-06 01:36 AM
Response to Original message
106. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
benburch Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-23-06 01:38 AM
Response to Reply #106
110. Right!
I don't believe it would have survived a 707, either. See above. They did not design this building with adequate safety margins. They did not realize that a minor slump would be magnified into a general total collapse.
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Twist_U_Up Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-23-06 01:46 AM
Response to Original message
114. This post debunks your whole theory
http://911blimp.net/prf_FreeFallPhysics.shtml

Free-Falling Bodies
Simple Physics Reveals The Big Lie
Collapse Theory Fails Reality Check

On September 11, 2001, most of the world watched in horror as the Twin Towers of the World Trade Center (WTC) collapsed. People did not have to be tuned in at the time in order to have seen it; it was repeated ad nauseum on television for days.

In June 2005, in an apparent response to an article by Morgan Reynolds, Robert Gates, the former Director of the Central Intelligence Agency (CIA) stated, "The American people know what they saw with their own eyes on September 11, 2001. To suggest any kind of government conspiracy in the events of that day goes beyond the pale."

Well, first of all, the American people saw things not with their own eyes but on television, which is comprised nowadays of digital information, which can be manipulated by computers. So Gates' premise is flawed. On the other hand, the towers are gone. So let's just examine his other premise: whether or not it is true that people know what they saw.

(The following must be said before we can get to the physics.)

The government and the media told us what we saw. The government told us that we had witnessed a "gravitational" collapse; what is now referred to as a "pancake collapse". According to the government's, and PBS's, and Popular Mechanics', and Scientific American's theory, airplane crashes and subsequent kerosene (like lamp oil; jet fuel is NOT exotic) fires heated steel to the point where it was weakened, which is already very difficult to believe, nevermind repeat in an experiment. According to their "pancake theory", this imagined purported (all the evidence was subsequently illegally destroyed) weakening supposedly caused part of the tower to collapse downward onto the rest of the tower, which, we've been repeatedly told, somehow resulted in a chain reaction of lower floors, sequentially, one at a time, yielding to the floors falling from above.

There are at least 2 problems with that theory; it does not fit the observed facts: It cannot account for either the total failure of the immense core columns, nor the too-rapid-to-blame-it-all-on-gravity collapse times. This article focuses on the latter of these two mentioned discrepancies.

The scientists who've concocted this "pancake theory" made a fatal error: they forgot to check their work! Which is an easy thing to do, even without any physical evidence to forensically examine. Anyone, at any time, can check the work of the scientists -- that incredible pancake theory of theirs -- using simple, high-school physics!

And that's what we're about to do here. We're going to check the work -- something every grade-schooler is taught to do -- of those "scientists".

We will use a simple, unassailable, incontrovertable conservation-of-energy analysis to perform a simple, basic reality check that establishes, once and for all, that the U.S. government, PBS, Popular Mechanics, and Scientific American have misrepresented the true nature of the events of 9/11.


How Gravity Acts

Sir Isaac Newton noticed, centuries ago, that apples fell (down! never up...) from trees. Lots of others, before him, had also noticed this, but none had ever devised a theory of gravity from the observation. Over the years, mankind has learned that the force of gravity comes from an acceleration of known constant magnitude, depending only upon mass and separation. (That doesn't mean we know HOW it works, or WHY, but we have managed to be able to predict its effects with a high degree of precision and an even higher degree of certainty -- gravity has always had the same, predictable, effect.)

Of course, people didn't figure this stuff out immediately. According to legend, Galileo Galilei used the leaning tower of Pisa to demonstrate that a large ball and a small one (of lesser mass) fell (accelerated) at the same rate. Prior to Galileo, people had just assumed that heavier objects fell faster (much the way mankind had long assumed that the Earth was flat!).

So while an object of greater mass will exert more force upon anything which is supporting it against gravity's pull (ie, it's heavier), it does not experience any greater acceleration when gravity's pull is not opposed (ie, when it's falling). Gravity can only accelerate objects at one known, constant rate. Heavier objects are not accelerated (downward) any quicker than are lighter objects, as Galileo demonstrated centuries ago.


The Simplest Case

From experimentation, it has been discovered that, near the surface of the Earth, Earth's gravity will produce a downward acceleration of 32 feet per second per second.

What that means is that an object, after falling one second, will be falling at 32 ft/sec.

After the 2nd second, it will be falling at 64 ft/sec.

After the 3rd second, it will be falling at 96 ft/sec.

And so on.

Similarly, since gravity's acceleration is constant, and it's falling at 32 ft/sec after one second has elapsed, we know that it has averaged 16 ft/sec for the entire distance, which, after one second, is 16 feet.

As you might imagine, after quite a few such thought experiments, some simple free-fall equations have been derived which can be used to harness this knowledge via numbers and arithmetic:

Velocity = Gravity x Time

and

Distance = 1/2 x Gravity x Time(squared)

So if we want to know how far the object has free-fallen after 3 seconds:

Distance = 1/2 x 32 x 9 = 144 feet

So after 3 seconds, in Earth's gravity, an object will have fallen 144 feet and will be falling at 96 ft/sec.


Checking Our Work

OK, we've just solved a simple physics problem! Now let's check our work, using conservation of energy.

We know that energy is neither created nor destroyed. It merely changes forms. If we take the potential (chemical) energy in a barrel of oil and burn it, we get heat energy. When we take refined oil and burn it in our car's engine, we get kinetic (ie, motion) energy (plus some heat; an engine's not 100% efficient). When we use our car's brakes to bleed off some of that kinetic energy (ie, slow down), the energy is converted into heat (the brakes get HOT).

In the case of the free-falling body, the two kinds of energy we are concerned with are kinetic energy and potential energy. Examples of potential (gravitational) energy are the water stored way up high in a water tower, or a boulder perched atop a hill. If whatever's holding them up there is removed, they will come down, under the influence of gravity's pull.

So, as an object falls, it gives up potential energy for kinetic energy.

It turns out that the equation for potential energy is as follows:

Potential Energy = Mass x Gravity x Height

It turns out that the equation for kinetic energy is as follows:

Kinetic Energy = 1/2 x Mass x Velocity(squared)

So let's just say, for the sake of simplicity, that our falling object has a mass of 1. (Remember, the object's mass will affect its energy, and its momentum, but not its rate of free-fall.)

The potential energy given up by falling 3 seconds (144 ft) is 1 x 32 x 144 = 4608

The kinetic energy gained after falling 3 secs is 1/2 x 1 x 96(squared) = 1/2 x 9216 = 4608

So, all of the available potential energy was converted to kinetic energy. Seeing that energy was, in fact, conserved is how we know that the answer in The Simplest Case, above, was correct. We've checked our work, using an independent analysis, based upon the sound principle of conservation of energy. Now, and only now, we can be certain that our answer was correct.


One Little Complication

Air resistance.

The free-fall equations reflect a perfect, frictionless world. They perfectly predict the behavior of falling bodies in a vacuum. In fact, some of you may have seen a science class demonstration in which the air is pumped out of a tube and then a feather will fall, in that vacuum, as fast as will a solid metal ball.

That's how parachutes work: much of the falling object's potential energy gets expended doing the work of pushing a lot of air out of the way in order for the object to fall. As a result, not all of the potential gravitational energy can go towards accelerating the object downward at at gravity's maximal rate of 32 ft/sec/sec.

In other words, only when there is zero resistance can any falling object's potenial energy be completely converted into kinetic energy. Anything which interferes with any falling object's downward acceleration will cause its acceleration to be reduced from the maximum gravitational acceleration of 32 feet per second per second, as some of gravity's potential energy is consumed doing work overcoming resistance.

That's why you may have heard the term "terminal velocity". The free-fall equations predict that a falling object's velocity will continue to increase, without limit. But in air, once a falling object reaches a certain speed, it's propensity to fall will be matched by air's resistance to the fall. At that point the object will continue to fall, but its speed will no longer increase over time.


A Quick Recap

Earth's gravity causes objects to fall. They fall according to precise, well-known equations. The equations assume no (air) resistance. Any resistance at all will cause the object to fall less rapidly than it would have without that resistance.

It is that last sentence which bears repeating.

There is a maximum possible rate at which objects fall, and if any of gravity's potential energy is consumed doing anything other than accelerate the object downward -- even just having to push air out of the way -- there will be less energy available to accelerate the object downward, and so that object's downward acceleration will be diminished.

And if an object's downward acceleration is diminshed, it will be going slower along the way, and thus it will take longer to fall a given distance.


Free-falling from WTC heights

The towers were 1350 and 1360 feet tall. So let's start by using our trusty free-fall equation to see how long it should take an object to free-fall from the towers' former height.

Distance = 1/2 x Gravity x Time(squared)

or

Time(squared) = (2 x Distance) / Gravity


Time(squared) = 2710 / 32 = 84.7


Time = 9.2

So our equation tells us that it will take 9.2 seconds to free-fall to the ground from the towers' former height.

Using our simpler equation, V = GT, we can see that at 9.2 seconds, in order to reach the ground in 9.2 seconds, the free-falling object's velocity must be about 295 ft/sec, which is just over 200 mph.

But that can only occur in a vacuum.

Since the WTC was at sea level, in Earth's atmosphere, you might be able to imagine how much air resistance that represents. (Think about putting your arm out the window of a car moving half that fast!) Most free-falling objects would reach their terminal velocity long before they reached 200 mph. For example, the commonly-accepted terminal velocity of a free-falling human is around 120 mph. The terminal velocity of a free-falling cat is around 60 mph. (source)

Therefore, air resistance alone will make it take longer than 10 seconds for gravity to pull an object to the ground from the towers' former height.


Observations from 9/11

On page 305 of the 9/11 Commission Report, we are told, in the government's "complete and final report" of 9/11, that the South Tower collapsed in 10 seconds. (That's the government's official number. Videos confirm that it fell unnaturally, if not precisely that, fast. See for yourself: QT Real)

But as we've just determined, that's free-fall time. That's close to the free-fall time in a vacuum, and an exceptionally rapid free-fall time through air.

But the "collapse" proceeded "through" the lower floors of the tower. Those undamaged floors below the impact zone would have offered resistance that is thousands of times greater than air. Recall that those lower floors had successfully suported the mass of the tower for 30 years.

Air can't do that.

Can anyone possibly imagine the undamaged lower floors getting out of the way of the upper floors as gracefully and relatively frictionlessly as air would? Can anyone possibly imagine the undamaged lower floors slowing the fall of the upper floors less than would, say, a parachute?

It is beyond the scope of the simple, but uncontested, physics in this presentation to tell you how long the collapse should have taken. Would it have taken minutes? Hours? Days? Forever?

Perhaps. But what is certain, beyond any shadow of a doubt, is that the towers could not have collapsed gravitationally, through intact lower floors, as rapidly as was observed on 9/11.

Not even close!

Because, as you may recall, not only was much energy expended in causing the observed massive high-speed sideways ejections, but virtually all the glass and concrete was pulverized -- or perhaps "dissociated" is a better word. (Nevermind what happened to all the supporting steel core columns...!!!) And the energy requirements to even come close to doing that rival the total amount of potential energy that the entire tower had to give. (source) So while gravity is nearly strong enough to cause some things to fall that far, through air, in the observed interval, and while gravity is probably not strong enough to have so thoroughly disintegrated the towers under their own weight, gravity is certainly not strong enough to have done both at once.


Conclusions

In order for the tower to have collapsed "gravitationally", as we've been told over and over again, in the observed duration, one or more of the following zany-sounding conditions must have been met:

The undamaged floors below the impact zone offered zero resistance to the collapse
The glass and concrete spontaneously disintegrated without any expenditure of energy
On 9/11, gravity was much stronger than gravity
On 9/11, energy was not conserved
However, none of these physics-violating conditions can be accounted for by the official government conspiracy theory of 9/11, nor by any of the subsequent analyses designed to prop up the official theory of 9/11.

Bottom line: the government/PBS/PM/SA explanation for the WTC collapses fails the most basic conservation-of-energy reality check. Therefore the government/PBS/PM/SA theory does not fit the observed facts; the notion of a "pancake collapse" cannot account for what happened. The "pancake collapse theory" explanation is impossible, and thus absurd.

It is utterly impossible for a "gravitational collapse" to proceed so destructively through a path of such great resistance in anywhere near free-fall times. This fact debunks the preposterous contention that the observed WTC collapses can be blamed solely upon damages resulting from aerial assaults.

So, to the extent that people accept the ridiculous "pancake collapse" explanation, Gates' other premise, that people know what they saw, is also incorrect. It is left to the reader to decide if his conclusion, which was based upon two incorrect presumptions, is also flawed.

The purported "gravitational" collapse (video) of World Trade Center building 7, which was hit by zero aircraft, and which also vertically collapsed in within 1 second of free-fall-time-in-a-vacuum later that same day, similarly fails this same conservation-of-energy analysis.

The explanation for how and why so many highly-accredited and credentialed people all so miserably failed to check the "pancake collapse" theory, by giving it this basic reality check, is beyond the scope of this simple physics discussion
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benburch Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-23-06 01:50 AM
Response to Reply #114
120. Faulty logic.
Air resistance does not apply in this case. because the mass was not moving through the air in the way a body does falling from, say, an aircraft.
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Twist_U_Up Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-23-06 02:06 AM
Response to Reply #120
136. This isnt about just air sorry
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karlrschneider Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-23-06 02:11 AM
Response to Reply #120
138. Exactly! Whoever wrote that had the simple equations right but did not
APPLY them correctly. As you said, air resistance (drag) had virtually no effect on the collapse. There may have been a small amount of compressibility involved but certainly not enough to significantly affect the result.

D = Cd * q * S where
D = drag
Cd = drag coefficient (1.28 for a 'flat plate')
q = dynamic pressure which is
rho * v^2/2 where
rho = density (.02377 lb/ft^3 in English units)
and v = velocity ft/sec

His "analysis" is worthless in this example because the towers were not
free-falling bodies with only gravity and air resistance affecting it.
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greyl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-23-06 03:46 AM
Response to Reply #138
158. I think they are using an incorrect collapse time.
Why would they trust the 9/11 commission report in this one instance and settle on 10 seconds?

Here are a few more opinions:



Large chunks of rubble, which are in free fall, are clearly falling faster than the rest of the building. The base of the massive chunk lower left is, what, 20 storeys lower than the top of the right-hand corner of the building? (And there may be rubble below that, and the building may be intact higher higher still). This suggests we should be looking at a collapse time greater than our 9.22 second freefall figure, not less.

How much greater? If the video evidence gives such a great ranges of guesses, then maybe another approach is required, at least as a crosscheck. We tried looking at the audio of each collapse, and came up with a minimum of 14 seconds in each case (see our South Tower and North Tower pages for more), and the potential for them to have taken several seconds longer. Calculating these times involves far too many judgement calls for us to claim proof of anything, but we do think it adds significantly more support to the 15+ seconds collapse time, and makes the 8.4 second end of the spectrum look particularly unlikely.

We can cross-check this by looking at the seismic evidence. Although often presented as supporting the shortest 8-point-something time, in our view there’s a case for arguing that this, too, indicates the collapse time was much, much longer.

Recognising the disagreement over collapse times, some people say it really doesn’t matter. 15 or 16 seconds aren’t that much more than our 9.22 second freefall-in-a-vacuum rate. Before deciding whether you agree, keep in mind that the freefall calculation involves acceleration, and so a relatively small increase in time is enough to allow a major increase in the distance fallen; if the WTC were twice its height, for instance, the freefall time would only rise from 9.22 to 13.05 seconds.

http://www.911myths.com/html/freefall.html

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Desertrose Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-23-06 02:12 AM
Response to Reply #120
139. Faulty logic?
Surely you don't believe this statement.

"Air resistance does not apply in this case. because the mass was not moving through the air in the way a body does falling from, say, an aircraft."


Then what was it moving through....cotton candy? water?a vacuum?? How was the building moving differently...only thing I can see would be that it had some "help".

The only possible "fault" I saw in that post was there was no accounting for the increased weight & mass as the building fell and acumulated additional floors (weight & mass).

Still...that was an incredibly even collapse...too smooth when you consider there must have been more support and/or weight on certain floors.

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upi402 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-23-06 01:47 AM
Response to Original message
115. Pentagon plane; Titanium burning question re; Loose Change
Loose Change says it's scientifically impossible for Jet fuel in pure oxygen to melt Titanium.

However, machinists have to be very careful when working with Ti because it ignites very easily. Using a vacuum to clear shavings results in a flaming vacuum cleaner. And at places where a lot of Ti is machined the area around the shavings is blocked off due to extreme combustibility.

What's up?
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Twist_U_Up Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-23-06 01:48 AM
Response to Reply #115
117. it will ignite it just doesnt get close to hot enough
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upi402 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-23-06 01:57 AM
Response to Reply #117
127. a CNC machine tool's rotational surface friction is enough to ignite when
dry and at an excessive speed?

Coulda use some of that shit in the Cubscouts.
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Twist_U_Up Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-23-06 01:58 AM
Response to Reply #127
129. Heres a better description
http://911research.wtc7.net/mirrors/guardian2/wtc/how-hot.htm

THE JET FUEL; HOW HOT DID IT HEAT
THE WORLD TRADE CENTER?


The Federal Emergency Management Agency (FEMA) report into collapse of the WTC towers, estimates that about 3,500 gallons of jet fuel burnt within each of the towers. Imagine that this entire quantity of jet fuel was injected into just one floor of the World Trade Center, that the jet fuel burnt with perfect efficency, that no hot gases left this floor, that no heat escaped this floor by conduction and that the steel and concrete had an unlimited amount of time to absorb all the heat. With these ideal assumptions we calculate the maximum temperature that this one floor could have reached.

"The Boeing 767 is capable of carrying up to 23,980 gallons of fuel and it is estimated that, at the time of impact, each aircraft had approximately 10,000 gallons of unused fuel on board (compiled from Government sources)."

Quote from the FEMA report into the collapse of WTC's One and Two (Chapter Two).

Since the aircraft were only flying from Boston to Los Angeles, they would have been nowhere near fully fueled on takeoff (the aircraft have a maximum range of 7,600 miles). They would have carried just enough fuel for the trip together with some safety factor. Remember, that carrying excess fuel means higher fuel bills and less paying passengers. The aircraft would have also burnt some fuel between Boston and New York.

"If one assumes that approximately 3,000 gallons of fuel were consumed in the initial fireballs, then the remainder either escaped the impact floors in the manners described above or was consumed by the fire on the impact floors. If half flowed away, then 3,500 gallons remained on the impact floors to be consumed in the fires that followed."

Quote from the FEMA report into the collapse of WTC's One and Two (Chapter Two).

What we propose to do, is pretend that the entire 3,500 gallons of jet fuel was confined to just one floor of the World Trade Center, that the jet fuel burnt with the perfect quantity of oxygen, that no hot gases left this floor and that no heat escaped this floor by conduction. With these ideal assumptions (none of which were meet in reality) we will calculate the maximum temperature that this one floor could have reached. Of course, on that day, the real temperature rise of any floor due to the burning jet fuel, would have been considerably lower than the rise that we calculate, but this estimate will enable us to demonstrate that the "official" explanation is a lie.

Note that a gallon of jet fuel weighs about 3.1 kilograms, hence 3,500 gallons weighs 3,500 x 3.1 = 10,850 kgs.

Jet fuel is a colorless, combustible, straight run petroleum distillate liquid. Its principal uses are as an ingredient in lamp oils, charcoal starter fluids, jet engine fuels and insecticides.

It is also know as, fuel oil #1, kerosene, range oil, coal oil and aviation fuel.

It is comprised of hydrocarbons with a carbon range of C9 - C17. The hydrocarbons are mainly alkanes CnH2n+2, with n ranging from 9 to 17.

It has a flash point within the range 42° C - 72° C (110° F - 162° F).

And an ignition temperature of 210° C (410° F).

Depending on the supply of oxygen, jet fuel burns by one of three chemical reactions:

(1) CnH2n+2 + (3n+1)/2 O2 => n CO2 + (n + 1) H2O

(2) CnH2n+2 + (2n+1)/2 O2 => n CO + (n + 1) H2O

(3) CnH2n+2 + (n+1)/2 O2 => n C + (n + 1) H2O

Reaction (1) occurs when jet fuel is well mixed with air before being burnt, as for example, in jet engines.

Reactions (2) and (3) occur when a pool of jet fuel burns. When reaction (3) occurs the carbon formed shows up as soot in the flame. This makes the smoke very dark.

In the aircraft crashes at the World Trade Center, the impact (with the aircraft going from 500 or 600 mph to zero) would have throughly mixed the fuel that entered the building with the limited amount of air available within. In fact, it is likely that all the fuel was turned into a flammable mist. However, for sake of argument we will assume that 3,500 gallons of the jet fuel did in fact form a pool fire. This means that it burnt according to reactions (2) and (3). Also note that the flammable mist would have burnt according to reactions (2) and (3), as the quantity of oxygen within the building was quite limited.

Since we do not know the exact quantities of oxygen available to the fire, we will assume that the combustion was perfectly efficient, that is, that the entire quantity of jet fuel burnt via reaction (1), even though we know that this was not so. This generous assumption will give a temperature that we know will be higher than the actual temperature of the fire attributable to the jet fuel.

We need to know that the (net) calorific value of jet fuel when burnt via reaction (1) is 42-44 MJ/kg. The calorific value of a fuel is the amount of energy released when the fuel is burnt. We will use the higher value of 44 MJ/kg as this will lead to a higher maximum temperature than the lower value of 42 (and we wish to continue being outrageously generous in our assumptions).

For a cleaner presentation and simpler calculations we will also assume that our hydrocarbons are of the form CnH2n. The dropping of the 2 hydrogen atoms does not make much difference to the final result and the interested reader can easily recalculate the figures for a slightly more accurate result. So we are now assuming the equation:

(4) CnH2n + 3n/2 O2 => n CO2 + n H2O

However, this model, does not take into account that the reaction is proceeding in air, which is only partly oxygen.

Dry air is 79% nitrogen and 21% oxygen (by volume). Normal air has a moisture content from 0 to 4%. We will include the water vapor and the other minor atmospheric gases with the nitrogen.

So the ratio of the main atmospheric gases, oxygen and nitrogen, is 1 : 3.76. In molar terms:


Air = O2 + 3.76 N2.

Because oxygen comes mixed with nitrogen, we have to include it in the equations. Even though it does not react, it is "along for the ride" and will absorb heat, affecting the overall heat balance. Thus we need to use the equation:

(5) CnH2n + 3n/2(O2 + 3.76 N2) => n CO2 + n H2O + 5.64n N2

From this equation we see that the molar ratio of CnH2n to that of the products is:


CnH2n : CO2 : H2O : N2 = 1 : n : n : 5.64n moles
= 14n : 44n : 18n : 28 x 5.64n kgs
= 1 : 3.14286 : 1.28571 : 11.28 kgs
= 31,000 : 97,429 : 39,857 : 349,680 kgs


In the conversion of moles to kilograms we have assumed the atomic weights of hydrogen, carbon, nitrogen and oxygen are 1, 12, 14 and 16 respectively.

Now each of the towers contained 96,000 (short) tons of steel. That is an average of 96,000/117 = 820 tons per floor. Lets suppose that the bottom floors contained roughly twice the amount of steel of the upper floors (since the lower floors had to carry more weight). So we estimate that the lower floors contained about 1,100 tons of steel and the upper floors about 550 tons = 550 x 907.2 ≈ 500,000 kgs. We will assume that the floors hit by the aircraft contained the lower estimate of 500,000 kgs of steel. This generously underestimates the quantity of steel in these floors, and once again leads to a higher estimate of the maximum temperature.

Each story had a floor slab and a ceiling slab. These slabs were 207 feet wide, 207 feet deep and 4 (in parts 5) inches thick and were constructed from lightweight concrete. So each slab contained 207 x 207 x 1/3 = 14,283 cubic feet of concrete. Now a cubic foot of lightweight concrete weighs about 50kg, hence each slab weighed 714,150 ≈ 700,000 kgs. Together, the floor and ceiling slabs weighed some 1,400,000 kgs.

So, now we take all the ingredients and estimate a maximum temperature to which they could have been heated by 3,500 gallons of jet fuel. We will call this maximum temperature T. Since the calorific value of jet fuel is 44 MJ/kg. We know that 3,500 gallons = 31,000 kgs of jet fuel


will release 10,850 x 44,000,000 = 477,400,000,000 Joules of energy.

This is the total quantity of energy available to heat the ingredients to the temperature T. But what is the temperature T? To find out, we first have to calculate the amount of energy absorbed by each of the ingredients.

That is, we need to calculate the energy needed to raise:


39,857 kilograms of water vapor to the temperature T° C,
97,429 kilograms of carbon dioxide to the temperature T° C,
349,680 kilograms of nitrogen to the temperature T° C,
500,000 kilograms of steel to the temperature T° C,
1,400,000 kilograms of concrete to the temperature T° C.


To calculate the energy needed to heat the above quantities, we need their specific heats. The specific heat of a substance is the amount of energy needed to raise one kilogram of the substance by one degree centigrade.


Substance Specific Heat
Nitrogen 1,038
Water Vapor 1,690
Carbon Dioxide 845
Lightweight Concrete 800
Steel 450


Substituting these values into the above, we obtain:


39,857 x 1,690 x (T - 25) Joules are needed to heat the water vapor from 25° to T° C,
97,429 x 845 x (T - 25) Joules are needed to heat the carbon dioxide from 25° to T° C,
349,680 x 1,038 x (T - 25) Joules are needed to heat the nitrogen from 25° to T° C,
500,000 x 450 x (T - 25) Joules are needed to heat the steel from 25° to T° C,
1,400,000 x 800 x (T - 25) Joules are needed to heat the concrete from 25° to T° C.


The assumption that the specific heats are constant over the temperature range 25° - T° C, is a good approximation if T turns out to be relatively small (as it does). For larger values of T this assumption once again leads to a higher maximum temperature (as the specific heat for these substances increases with temperature). We have assumed the initial temperature of the surroundings to be 25° C. The quantity, (T - 25)° C, is the temperature rise.

So the amount of energy needed to raise one floor to the temperature T° C is

= (39,857 x 1,690 + 97,429 x 845 + 349,680 x 1,038 + 500,000 x 450 + 1,400,000 x 800) x (T - 25)
= (67,358,330 + 82,327,505 + 362,967,840 + 225,000,000 + 1,120,000,000) x (T - 25) Joules
= 1,857,653,675 x (T - 25) Joules.

Since the amount of energy available to heat this floor is 477,400,000,000 Joules, we have that

1,857,653,675 x (T - 25) = 477,400,000,000
1,857,653,675 x T - 46,441,341,875 = 477,400,000,000

Therefore T = (477,400,000,000 + 46,441,341,875)/1,857,653,675 = 282° C (540° F).

So, the jet fuel could (at the very most) have only added T - 25 = 282 - 25 = 257° C (495° F) to the temperature of the typical office fire that developed.

Remember, this figure is a huge over-estimate, as (among other things) it assumes that the steel and concrete had an unlimited amount of time to absorb the heat, whereas in reality, the jet fuel fire was all over in one or two minutes, and the energy not absorbed by the concrete and steel within this brief period (that is, almost all of it) would have been vented to the outside world.

"The time to consume the jet fuel can be reasonably computed. At the upper bound, if one assumes that all 10,000 gallons of fuel were evenly spread across a single building floor, it would form a pool that would be consumed by fire in less than 5 minutes"

Quote from the FEMA report into the collapse of WTC's One and Two (Chapter Two).

Here are statements from three eye-witnesses that provide evidence that the heating due to the jet fuel was indeed minimal.

Donovan Cowan was in an open elevator at the 78th floor sky-lobby (one of the impact floors of the South Tower) when the aircraft hit. He has been quoted as saying: "We went into the elevator. As soon as I hit the button, that's when there was a big boom. We both got knocked down. I remember feeling this intense heat. The doors were still open. The heat lasted for maybe 15 to 20 seconds I guess. Then it stopped."

Stanley Praimnath was on the 81st floor of the South Tower: "The plane impacts. I try to get up and then I realize that I'm covered up to my shoulder in debris. And when I'm digging through under all this rubble, I can see the bottom wing starting to burn, and that wing is wedged 20 feet in my office doorway."

Ling Young was in her 78th floor office: "Only in my area were people alive, and the people alive were from my office. I figured that out later because I sat around in there for 10 or 15 minutes. That's how I got so burned."

Neither Stanley Praimnath nor Donovan Cowan nor Ling Young were cooked by the jet fuel fire. All three survived.

Summarizing:

We have assumed that the entire 3,500 gallons of jet fuel was confined to just one floor of the World Trade Center, that the jet fuel burnt with perfect efficency, that no hot gases left this floor, that no heat escaped this floor by conduction and that the steel and concrete had an unlimited amount of time to absorb all the heat.

Then it is impossible that the jet fuel, by itself, raised the temperature of this floor more than 257° C (495° F).

Now this temperature is nowhere near high enough to even begin explaining the World Trade Center Tower collapse.

It is not even close to the first critical temperature of 600° C (1,100° F) where steel loses about half its strength and it is nowhere near the quotes of 1500° C that we constantly read about in our lying media.

"In the mid-1990s British Steel and the Building Research Establishment performed a series of six experiments at Cardington to investigate the behavior of steel frame buildings. These experiments were conducted in a simulated, eight-story building. Secondary steel beams were not protected. Despite the temperature of the steel beams reaching 800-900° C (1,500-1,700° F) in three of the tests (well above the traditionally assumed critical temperature of 600° C (1,100° F), no collapse was observed in any of the six experiments."

Quote from the FEMA report (Appendix A).

Recalling that the North Tower suffered no major structural damage from the intense office fire of February 23, 1975, we can conclude that the ensuing office fires of September 11, 2001, also did little extra damage to the towers.

Conclusion:

The jet fuel fires played almost no role in the collapse of the World Trade Center.

So, once again, you have been lied to by the media, are you surprised?

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upi402 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-23-06 02:01 AM
Response to Reply #129
130. is Titanium in that Chinese stuff somewhere
Edited on Thu Feb-23-06 02:06 AM by upi402
I'm going :crazy: trying to read that.
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karlrschneider Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-23-06 02:36 AM
Response to Reply #129
145. I've read a lot of so-called "analyses", but this one is the stupidest one
yet. It assumes that the ENTIRE STRUCTURE is going to be 'heated' by the fuel. That's blatent nonsense...2 or 3 floors with failed trusses would be (and were) enough to initiate the collapse. Yikes.
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Twist_U_Up Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-23-06 02:41 AM
Response to Reply #145
148. Those trusses where not continuous.
they spanned to the center core columns and circled the floors. If there where collapse it would have been on one side
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upi402 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-23-06 10:13 PM
Response to Reply #145
314. 10' drop of several stories of weight would crush the floor below
and so on, and so on, and so on...
That much weight has a tendency to fall stright to gravity line, and not get deflected to the side.
We're used to observing much smaller events in relation to gravity (my favorite theory btw!- gravity).
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Harald Ragnarsson Donating Member (366 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-25-06 02:58 PM
Response to Reply #145
344. No it doesn't. It assumes that all that heat was confined to one floor
rather than the steel conducting the heat off into the rest of the structure, as would actually happen. Kind of the opposite of what you're saying.
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upi402 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-23-06 01:54 AM
Response to Original message
123. Loose Change cont. -Boeing secrecy
Boeing was extremely secretive prior to 9-11. They were worried about corporate espionage to an amazingly high tech level from a certain country perhaps, for instance... blah blah blah...no knowledge of nothing, blah blah...I know nothing really...speculating here.

But it's pretty widely known that Boeing kept all cards close to the vest.

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hangloose Donating Member (554 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-23-06 01:55 AM
Response to Original message
125.  I appreciate YOUR EFFORT, HOWEVER........
THERE WERE BOMBS OR ANOTHER TYPE OF SUPER Cosmo top-SECRETE DEVICE TO BRING DOWN THE TOWERS.

SORRY
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karlrschneider Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-23-06 02:38 AM
Response to Reply #125
146. Super Cosmo?
Well, of course, it HAD to be one of those gizmos. Was it inside the buildings (both of them?)...or was it maybe aimed from a cloaked satellite...?
:eyes:
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kster Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-23-06 01:55 AM
Response to Original message
126. A handful guys that knew how to steer an airplane
beat these guys to their target three times in one day, PUHLEESES!

Not a chance!

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karlrschneider Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-23-06 02:40 AM
Response to Reply #126
147. That is a non sequitur and an entirely separate discussion.
:eyes:
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Twist_U_Up Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-23-06 02:56 AM
Response to Reply #126
154. And their mastermind ran it from a cave .
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upi402 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-23-06 02:10 AM
Response to Original message
137. Loose Change; great point on Ti engines ramming thru Pentagon
Titanium is extremely hard, it would seem that it would have made round holes as it passed thru the concrete. Even assuming the concret was 6-sack and cured over a lot of years and was very thick.
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MrSammo1 Donating Member (788 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-23-06 02:20 PM
Response to Reply #137
232. Don't also forget that .........
limestone tends to be soft!



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ThoughtCriminal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-23-06 03:06 AM
Response to Original message
156. If it was CD
How did they know which floors the planes would crash into?






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petgoat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-23-06 05:14 AM
Response to Reply #156
167. How did they know which floors
A radio beacon as a target installed in the buildings might guide the planes in.

Or radio-controlled detonators would allow editing the detonation sequence after
the crash.
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ThoughtCriminal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-23-06 10:07 AM
Response to Reply #167
190. Not likely
Placement of the charges is a huge undertaking that requires considerable destruction and preparation.

There is considerable risk that the impact of the aircraft itself would destroy the wiring and/or electronics necessary for a "Controlled" demolition. It seems likely to me that the only way to make sure the charges explode properly would be to set them off before impact. How do you make sure the radio detonators survive the impact?






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MrSammo1 Donating Member (788 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-23-06 02:22 PM
Response to Reply #190
233. You can actually see
some of the explosives going off when the supposed Flight 175 went through to the other side.

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petgoat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-23-06 03:38 PM
Response to Reply #190
257. "Placement of the charges is a huge undertaking "
Not according to explosives expert Van Romero. He said the buildings could have been brought down
with a small amount of explosives in key places.

http://911research.wtc7.net/disinfo/retractions/romero.html

How do you make sure the radio detonators survive the impact?

They don't need to. Assuming the plane and the fires take out floors 80-83.

You think charges set off at 84-87 and 76-79 won't bring the tower down?
(Or in the basement?)
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Twist_U_Up Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-23-06 08:18 PM
Response to Reply #257
306. Petgoat have you read this theory ?
http://algoxy.com/psych/9-11scenario.html#anchor1209159

according to this author The buildings when they where built, c4 was installed in the floor pans and tripled the amount around column connection and then poured also creating multiple circuits.

Then in the 1993 attacks Marvin Bush finished the placements in the basement.

I think if you read through these theories they tie nicely into what you are saying
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petgoat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-24-06 02:18 PM
Response to Reply #306
334. C4 in floor pans
Yes, I'm familiar with Christopher's theory about the built-in explosives, and
Kevin's idea that they were installed after '93.

It makes sense to me, but since the explosives would be secret before 9/11 and
would certainly be secret after 9/11, you'll never get proof.

It's certainly something to keep in mind, though, when somebody claims that
rigging the towers and running all those mythical miles of det cord make
controlled demo impossible.

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MrSammo1 Donating Member (788 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-24-06 04:07 AM
Response to Reply #257
325. the explosions in the basement......
that went off before the jets hit. Had an altogether different purpose.

Taking out the water pumps.

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rman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-24-06 10:35 AM
Response to Reply #190
329. A proper 'clean' CD requires considerable preparation
If you don't care about it being clean it's a lot easier and takes less preparation time.

RC requires no wiring - that makes it easier and takes less time.

Thermite is fairly easy to apply, and requires no pre-weakening of the structure.
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Kevin Fenton Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-23-06 03:21 AM
Response to Original message
157. Most people who claim the WTC fell "naturally"...
... satisfy themselves with doubling the actual numbers once, but you actually manage to double them twice.

You write: "The Mass of the structure of each #1 and #2 WTC is given at approximately 500000 tons."
Well, it might be given on the internet, but the figure is incorrect. You can find the real figure on page 32 of the NIST report (page 82 of the .pdf):
"With no warning that could be discerned in WTC 1, WTC 2 collapsed. The shudder as the more than 250,000 tons of steel, conrete and furnishings hit the ground was felt well beyong the site."
http://wtc.nist.gov/NISTNCSTAR1CollapseofTowers.pdf

You then double your ficticious number again without a valid reason.
If we take the central impact floors as 96 and 81 and pretend the weight of each floor was equal at 2,270 tons (250,000 tons divided by 110, although actually the upper floors weighed less), then we have 31,780 tons above the central impact floor in WTC 1 and 65,830 tons above the central impact floor in WTC 2.

You wrote: "When the aircraft hit each building, they did considerable damage to the load-bearing walls on the exterior of the building,"
Each tower had 236 perimeter columns. Name one floor where more than 18 were severed.
The gravity load was divided more or less equally between the core and the perimeter. The severed columns in the perimeter accounted for 7.6% of WTC 1's gravity load-bearing capacity and 7.1% of WTC 2's gravity load-bearing capacity. Given that the building had a safety factor of at least 3, I wouldn't call that "significant".

If you want to claim the asymetric nature of the damage was the killer, then please first have a brief look at how NIST claims the hat truss (one of the 4 main structural elements in the building) redistributed the loads after the impacts.

"Their fuel burned along with the contents of the structure (a
considerable source of fuel)"
Well, that's not quite what NIST says:
"The initial jet fuel fires themselves lasted at most a few minutes." (p. 183/233).

Care to try again?
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benburch Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-23-06 07:28 AM
Response to Reply #157
174. As I said above...
If the energies are at one tenth of what I estimated, so it still works even if you are right here.

Sorry, your deeply held emotional investment just went bust.
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Kevin Fenton Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-23-06 08:12 AM
Response to Reply #174
180. Your numbers don't check out:
"The Mass of the structure of each #1 and #2 WTC is given at approximately 500000 tons."
No, it's half of that. By your own calculations you now have a safety factor of five.

"The weight of the contents is usually given as equal in weight to the structure itself, for a total weight as occupied on 9/11 as two Billion Pounds, roughly 900 million kilograms."
No, it's nothing. You now have a safety factor of 2.5.

"Now, only a small amount of mass is at the top, and mass can be assumed to roughly be distributed equally throughout, so for calculating the gravitational potential energy, we will use half of this height, 200 meters."
If it were a "natural" collapse, the first floor to go fell about 3.6m (the height of one floor), not 200m. If you're trying to work out whether the initial collapse should have triggered pancaking, then you've multiplied the correct number (3.6) by 55 - a fairly sizeable fudge factor by anybody's reckoning.


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ThoughtCriminal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-23-06 10:37 AM
Response to Reply #180
193. Are you sure?
Just as easy for a source to erroneously divide by 2 by assuming "The Structure" was refering to both towers instead of one. It gets hard when various sources site each other. I honestly don't think that it matters, even halving the mass of the floors above would not be save the towers.:

http://www.tms.org/pubs/journals/JOM/0112/Eagar/Eagar-0112.html
<snip>
Many structural engineers believe that the weak points—the limiting factors on design allowables—were the angle clips that held the floor joists between the columns on the perimeter wall and the core structure (see Figure 5). With a 700 Pa floor design allowable, each floor should have been able to support approximately 1,300 t beyond its own weight. The total weight of each tower was about 500,000 t.

As the joists on one or two of the most heavily burned floors gave way and the outer box columns began to bow outward, the floors above them also fell. The floor below (with its 1,300 t design capacity) could not support the roughly 45,000 t of ten floors (or more) above crashing down on these angle clips. This started the domino effect that caused the buildings to collapse within ten seconds, hitting bottom with an estimated speed of 200 km per hour. If it had been free fall, with no restraint, the collapse would have only taken eight seconds and would have impacted at 300 km/h.1 It has been suggested that it was fortunate that the WTC did not tip over onto other buildings surrounding the area. There are several points that should be made. First, the building is not solid; it is 95 percent air and, hence, can implode onto itself. Second, there is no lateral load, even the impact of a speeding aircraft, which is sufficient to move the center of gravity one hundred feet to the side such that it is not within the base footprint of the structure. Third, given the near free-fall collapse, there was insufficient time for portions to attain significant lateral velocity. To summarize all of these points, a 500,000 t structure has too much inertia to fall in any direction other than nearly straight down.
<snip>


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benburch Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-23-06 10:40 AM
Response to Reply #193
195. Exactly.
I posted a revised version of this essay in which I cut the mass estimate by 75%.

And this is still grossly enough to doom the buildings.
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Kevin Fenton Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-23-06 10:48 AM
Response to Reply #193
201. Pretty sure
Just about everybody and every site on the internet claims that the weight was 500,000 tons each. However, there are two problems with this:
(1) NIST, which spent millions of dollars analysing the towers, says they weighed 250,000 each. Who are you going to trust - NIST or an internet site where you don't know where they got their figures from?
(2) The figure for the steel is usually given as 100,000 tons per tower. If the steel (the main structural element) only weighed 100,000 tons, what was the other 400,000 tons? Even if we take a high estimate for the concrete of 100,000 tons, then that leaves us with 300,000 tons of people and machinery. There's just no way the people, however fat, and machinery could weigh that much.

You wrote "I honestly don't think that it matters, even halving the mass of the floors above would not be save the towers."
Accuracy matters, but not even doubling the towers' weight would make them collapse.
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ThoughtCriminal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-23-06 11:01 AM
Response to Reply #201
204. Ive seen similar mistake often enough
Even two orders of magnitude from a misplaced decimal point. No, I would not assume that NIST got it right. Who do I trust MIT or NIST?

>>"not even doubling the towers' weight would make them collapse"

Where are the figures on how much addtional force wach floor can handle?

"With a 700 Pa floor design allowable, each floor should have been able to support approximately 1,300 t beyond its own weight."

Even halving the mass of ten floors of WTC from 45,000 t to 22,500 t far exceeds that 1300 tons.

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Kevin Fenton Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-23-06 02:53 PM
Response to Reply #204
241. NIST or MIT
Sometimes NIST is right, sometimes MIT is. You have to take it on a case by case basis. As far as concerns Eagar, the thing with this article is that it was written very early after the collapse and he appears to have got his figures off the internet without actually having checked them. I presume NIST has checked them.

Also, NIST's figures add up, whereas I really can't see how the above-ground portion of one of the towers could weigh 500,000 tons. Steel = 100,000, concrete = 100,000, where's the other 300,000 tons?

My points against the collapse are:
(1) The impact and fire damage is nowhere near enough. The perimeter damage accounts for 7.6% of the North Tower's gravity load-bearing capacity and 7.1% of the South Tower's. The best estimate of the core damage I've seen is NIST base case scenario, which takes away about 3% of the gravity load-bearing capacity in the North Tower (total of 10.6%) and 6.5% of the South Tower's gravity load-bearing capacity (total of 13.6%), although I think this is a slight overestimate (I disagree with the plane speed they use, but that's another story). Where did the rest of the building go? Even if the safety factor was only 3, then you still need to get rid of over 50% of the building's gravity load-bearing capacity before the towers collapse (although this would not apply if highly asymmetrical damage overcame the hat truss' ability to redistribute the loads). After the first few minutes all the jet fuel had burned up and it was just an office fire, the difference being it didn't burn as long as the usual office fire and the WTC had significantly less combustibles (20%) than the average office building. Throw in the fact that the North Tower didn't have that many broken windows and was oxygen-starved and therefore cooler and where does that leave you?
(2) (These sorts of) buildings don't pancake. Name one finished similar building that has ever pancaked.
(3) Seven wasn't even hit by a plane, so what happened there?
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ThoughtCriminal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-23-06 05:01 PM
Response to Reply #241
284. Your points
Looking through the NIST pdf, I think you are correct on the total mass - they do break it down.

On your other points

1) Are these percentages or the load bearing capacity of the entire building or a single floor? I think there there is an important difference. I assume that you are getting these percentages from the NIST Global Analysis and may be overlooking how the load distribution and sagging from heat lead to failure. (see NIST p144). What specifically is wrong with the NIST model?

2) How do we know they don't pancake? Where is that data? How similar does it have to be? As far as I know, data on collapsed building of this size is limited to two (WTC 1, WTC 2). There have been other fires in highrise buildings but nothing even close to having thousands of gallons of jet juel explode inside. Where is the data on controlled demolition of a structure this size?

3) Looking at the impact footprint, it seems plausible to me that the impact of the WTC tower would do enough damage to WTC-7 to account for it's collapse, but this is not something I've taken the time to research myself. It would be a bigger mystery if it had survived.

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Kevin Fenton Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-23-06 05:51 PM
Response to Reply #284
291. Sagging, etc.
"Are these percentages or the load bearing capacity of the entire building or a single floor?"
The percentages are for the whole impact area. The percentage of the gravity load-bearing capacity of a single floor that was destroyed would be less; for example the maximum number of perimeter columns destroyed on one floor is 18, whereas 35 columns were severed in the North Tower across all floors.

"I assume that you are getting these percentages from the NIST Global Analysis"
The perimeter numbers are from everywhere, the core numbers are from NIST's base case simulation - the final report wasn't drafted using the base case, but the more severe case.

The asymmetric nature of the damage obviously aggravated the problem, but my understanding of the hat truss indicates that, given the relatively minor extent of the damage compared to the whole structure, this wouldn't have been a problem.

There's no way the towers' structures were simply overwhelmed - they were too strong for that. Most people try to get past this by suggesting some sort of weak point and NIST goes for the floors. I don't buy it for various reasons. For example, the duration of the fires (102 and 56 minutes) doesn't seem long enough - lots of buildings burn for hours without falling over. Also, the recovered steel samples indicate temperatures significantly lower than NIST claims, although NIST basically ignored this (i.e. when they had a steel sample that had demonstrably been at a lower temperature than their model indicated, they just tweaked the model locally to reflect this, they didn't make a full adjustment to the model).

"What specifically is wrong with the NIST model?"
I'm more or less happy with their base case model (except the aircraft speed for United 175), but the towers didn't collapse in the base case (or the less severe case), so in the final report NIST used a different case (the "more severe case"), where almost all of the input numbers were altered. For example, to increase the damage to the core columns the aircraft speed was increased, the aircraft's failure strain increased and the tower's failure strain decreased. Also, to increase the effect of the fires, the amount of combustibles was increased by 20% - an aggregate rise of over 200 tons on all the fire floors.

"How do we know they don't pancake?"
AFAIK two highrise buildings have pancaked in history. One of them (L'Ambiance Plaza - but I'm probably spelling it wrong) was not finished, so the various steel elements weren't actually bolted or welded together - no wonder it pancaked. The other, a tower block in London, only suffered a partial collapse and was largely intact afterwards.

"nothing even close to having thousands of gallons of jet juel explode inside."
American 11 was carrying 10,000 gallons of jet fuel when in hit the North Tower. United 175 was carrying 9,100 gallons when it hit the South Tower. Say 20% of the fuel fireballed outside (less for American 11, more for United 175), 15% fireballed inside. The rest spilled and burned up in a few minutes. Then there were just office fires.
Nothing anywhere near this big (or as big as WTC 7) has ever been destroyed by controlled demolition.

Seven
If the damage from the debris from the North Tower was that bad, how come it stood for nearly 7 hours?
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MrSammo1 Donating Member (788 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-23-06 02:26 PM
Response to Reply #174
236. Have you tried to contact
Steven Jones?

Or Jim Fetzer?

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Griffy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-23-06 04:47 AM
Response to Original message
159. GOOBLDEEGOOK! WTC 7 was controlled DEMO
dont delude yourself and bend over backwards to explain away the evidence. If you saw the WTC 7 collapse and didnt know it happened on 911 you know you would agree it was controlled demo.
I am an engineer, and physics doesnt care about denial.. read the NIST report on WTC 7... see how they know how WTC collapsed, just not WHY it happened.

please dont confuse people with the pseudo scientific mumbo-jumbo.
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longship Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-23-06 03:08 PM
Response to Reply #159
244. There is no evidence of this.
Edited on Thu Feb-23-06 03:08 PM by longship
There are no witnesses to this in spite of the fact that there were thousands of people in the area both before and after the events of 9/11.

Damnit! You cannot hide controlled demolition. It involves months of research. You have to remove and/or weaken support elements in the building. You cannot do that without people throughout the building witnessing it. Explosives are planted *within* support elements that remain. Drilling into reinforced concrete makes noise that translates through the entire building's structure. How are you going to accomplish that without anybody witnessing it?

If WTC 7 was controlled demolition there would be hundreds of people (maybe thousands, the people who occupied the building in the days prior to 9/11) who would have reported suspicious noises and activity. These people do not exist. So the only conclusion one can come to is that WTC 7 collapse could not have been a controlled demolition.

Anyway, controlled demolition is not necessary to explain WTC 7 collapse. I know that you would disagree, but that is because you are relying on incorrect information and bad science.

I smell a political agenda here. One that requires that people believe that the most inept and incompetent regime in the world's history has the competence to successfully pull off the most wide-reaching and global conspiracy ever conceived by mankind. This alone should tell you that MIHOP doesn't pass the simplest of smell tests.
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Kevin Fenton Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-23-06 03:24 PM
Response to Reply #244
251. Seven
"Damnit! You cannot hide controlled demolition. It involves months of research."
Well, you can hide the research - it's just a couple of guys looking at blueprints in a room.

"You have to remove and/or weaken support elements in the building."
You don't have to. This is the way it is usually done. The reason it is usually done like this is removing and/or weakening the support elements (and other non-load-bearing elements) increases the certainty of a prediction that the building will fall the way you want. If you are desperate (and they were very desperate on 9/11) you can just go for it, but it makes a big mess - this is why most of the towers fell outside their footprints.

"You cannot do that without people throughout the building witnessing it."
Why would anybody notice somebody dressed as a maintenance man in a maintenance area?

"Explosives are planted *within* support elements that remain."
Not necessarily. Just fix them to the steel.

"Drilling into reinforced concrete makes noise that translates through the entire building's structure."
What reinforced concrete are you talking about? Surely, charges would be affixed to the vertical supports, not the floors.

"One that requires that people believe that the most inept and incompetent regime in the world's history has the competence to successfully pull off the most wide-reaching and global conspiracy ever conceived by mankind. This alone should tell you that MIHOP doesn't pass the simplest of smell tests."
No way. The "WTC was demolished" idea stands alone from the other stuff (most of which I don't agree with).

See the "squib" the red arrow is pointing at?

How do you explain that?
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longship Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-23-06 03:53 PM
Response to Reply #251
263. Structural failure does the same exact thing.
Edited on Thu Feb-23-06 03:54 PM by longship
I don't see your pic, but I've seen these so-called squib pics before.

The answer is very, very simple. A structural failure results in explosive disintegration at the point of failure. In structural concrete, the concrete is totally pulverized at the failure point and is violently ejected from the fracture. In other words, the result of structural failure is the violent release of energy, a very loud bang, and a cloud of violently ejected pulverized material. Anybody who's witnessed this in an engineering lab knows precisely what I'm talking about.

Uncontrolled demolition would exhibit precisely what MIHOPers claim *requires* that it be controlled???

The so-called "squibs" are a straw man.

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rman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-23-06 05:06 AM
Response to Original message
164. Potential energy is not released explosivly in natural collapse
One floor just falling onto another does not have the same effect as demo charges going off to cause that collapse. It doesn't nearly produce that the same amount of heat.

Moreover, "pancake collapse" does not explain free-fall speed of WTC collapses.
Steel and concrete does not fall through steel and concrete at the same speed as it does through air.
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MrSammo1 Donating Member (788 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-23-06 02:28 PM
Response to Reply #164
237. Don't you dare..........
bring reality into this thread!

;o)

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Cooley Hurd Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-23-06 05:27 AM
Response to Original message
168. My two cents - visually, your assertions bear out without question...
Edited on Thu Feb-23-06 05:58 AM by Cooley Hurd
WTC2 (south tower) collapsed into the wound caused by UA Flt 135, as very clearly seen in these pictures:



WTC7 was hit by a huge amount of debris. Specifically, the north wall of WTC1 (north tower) fell into it. Screen shots taken from my taping of the event from MSNBC, live, in sequence:





In this aerial photo, you can clearly see the path of destruction caused by the north wall coming down like a felled tree:

The north wall destroyed the center section of WTC6 and hit WTC7, setting it aflame.
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Kevin Fenton Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-23-06 07:07 AM
Response to Reply #168
172. No, they don't
You say that the South Tower collapsed into the wound caused by United 175 and post this picture of it collapsing:

However, in the picture we can see clearly that the top of the South Tower is leaning the the east, whereas United 175 hit the south side.
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Cooley Hurd Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-23-06 07:19 AM
Response to Reply #172
173. UA 175 hit the southeast corner and ripped thru the east side...
Edited on Thu Feb-23-06 07:24 AM by Cooley Hurd
... of the building - that's why you see (in photos, as well as video) one of its engines passing completely thru the building and out the north wall of WTC2 (I believe it landed at the corner of Church and Murray Streets). The building is collapsing into the damaged area.
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Kevin Fenton Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-23-06 07:34 AM
Response to Reply #173
175. South wall
Clearly, there is a big chunk of the south wall missing (33 of 59 perimeter columns). Whilst I would not dispute that there was some damage to the east side, I would argue that the south side of the tower was more badly damaged than the east side - the plane hit the south side of the tower, so how can the east side be more damaged?
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Cooley Hurd Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-23-06 07:45 AM
Response to Reply #175
177. Because UA 175 didn't hit the south wall dead-on...
...it hit the southeast corner of the building, and ripped thru the east side of WTC2...

Pic taken from the northeast shows damage goes all the way thru the east wall:


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Kevin Fenton Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-23-06 08:15 AM
Response to Reply #177
181. More damage to south side
If you're saying that the east side suffered some damage, then I agree with that. If you're saying that the east side suffered more damage than the south side, then I can't agree with that. The whole plane hit the south wall, severing over half the perimeter columns and knocking out a big chunk of floor. There was clearly much more damage to the south side than the east side.
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Twist_U_Up Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-23-06 12:15 PM
Response to Reply #177
210. ya think ?
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-23-06 08:43 AM
Response to Original message
183. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
progressoid Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-23-06 08:44 AM
Response to Original message
184. All yer fancy book lernin don't mean nothin.
Them numbers and figures and whatnot caint deny one simple fact. George W Bush is a crimanal mastermind.

Now if you dont mind I goin to sit under my pyramid and finish my Kevin Trudeau book.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-23-06 09:00 AM
Response to Original message
185. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
Trish1168 Donating Member (371 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-23-06 10:45 AM
Response to Original message
198. The issue is the rate of fall....the rate was almost free fall..
They fell at a speed suggesting no resistance from below.

I'm a scientist and know enough physics to understand this key aspect. It is also highly unlikely that these buildings would fall in their foot prints. There's almost no chance of it.

Sorry, but your arguments don't account for all the questions.
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benburch Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-23-06 10:47 AM
Response to Reply #198
200. Actually they can fall no other way.
And despite the hype, they did not fall neatly in their footprints.
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petgoat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-23-06 03:33 PM
Response to Reply #200
254. they can fall no other way
Yes, and the Queen Mary is too big to steer (it can only forward and back).

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MrSammo1 Donating Member (788 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-23-06 02:32 PM
Response to Reply #198
238. Silly.........
The Laws of Physics! Huh!

This thread is about human denial!

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Twist_U_Up Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-23-06 10:48 AM
Response to Original message
202. One last comment because you refuse to listen
I posted NUMEROUS times in this thread to watch the Loose Change 1 or 2 video.

Not only do the naysayers refuse to watch the documentary they refuse to acknowledge the video even exists or even the posts containing the links.

I wonder why.

Just watch the friggin video.
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benburch Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-23-06 11:06 AM
Response to Reply #202
205. I did.
Nice videos. Faulty logic. Lacks any proof.
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Twist_U_Up Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-23-06 11:58 AM
Response to Reply #205
206. Well one more then ALL FACTS W/Sources
I'm sure that you will just say this is faulty logic as usual but ill throw this site out there for you.

If you read the whole thing,this guy makes you look like a complete liar time and time again.

http://www.thepowerhour.com/911_analysis/laws-of-physics.htm



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benburch Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-23-06 12:30 PM
Response to Reply #206
213. Are you calling me a liar?
You had better back that up if so.
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Twist_U_Up Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-23-06 12:39 PM
Response to Reply #213
214. I never called you that
And for you to throw every source or thought as faulty logic is simply preposterous. You are basically saying that all the scholars and scientist and eye witnesses are liars.You continually brush aside countless irrefutable facts as faulty logic.Are so many intelligent people just mistaken ? This just tends to make one think what your motives are.
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benburch Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-23-06 12:51 PM
Response to Reply #214
215. Yes I am saying that.
They are simply wrong, and ought to be smarter than that.

My motives? Now you are questioning my motives?

I'll tell you; I think Liberals have ignored the truth here in ways that discredit every other message we have.

People seem to want to have the WTC packed with bombs to the rafters, each one with "George Bush Was Here" chalked onto the side, sort of like a Kilroy, but with much bigger ears. Noam Chomsky demolished that argument in social terms, I mean to demolish it in mathematical terms.

The collapse of these buildings did not require anything but the two aircraft people saw hitting them.

Wow... Aircraft hijacked by an organized group of terrorists and used to destroy three important buildings in the USA on the same morning, and that isn't ENOUGH of a conspiracy for you?

I know you deeply and emotionally want to tar Bush with this, and you are missing the important framing issue. He FAILED to protect us with an incompetence that amounted to Depraved Indifference! You don't have to have some shadowy Bilderberger/PNAC/Bavarian Illuminati conspiracy to explain what happened that day!

Bush failed to heed warnings.

Bush ordered people taken off terrorism investigations and ordered more put on pornography investigations.

Bush was specifically warned in the early August PDB that Bin Laden was poised to strike. He went on VACATION!

You don't need a floor full of bombs labeled "Property of PNAC - If found, drop into any mailbox" to hang Bush for this misfeasance.

So why all the emotional investment in something easily proven never to have happened?

I don't get it.

I think it borders on actual paranoia.
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Twist_U_Up Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-23-06 01:03 PM
Response to Reply #215
217. People seem to want to have the WTC packed with
a grand piano sale or an elephant convention that day, it is unlikely that any of them were loaded to the maximum.

,snip>

The terrorists apparently predicted the whole scenario -- the fuel fire, the slow weakening of the structure, and the horrific collapse of the building -- phenomena that the architects and the NY civil engineering approval committees never dreamed of.

Even as you righteously hate those men, you have to admire them for their genius.

Few officials or engineers have been surprised by this turn of events -- apparently everyone certified it for airplane collisions, but almost no one was surprised when both collisions caused utter catastrophes in both towers. In fact, their stutters and mumbles and circumlocutions would make a politician blush:

"Eventually, the loss of strength and stiffness of the materials resulting from the fire, combined with the initial impact damage, would have caused a failure of the truss system supporting a floor, or the remaining perimeter columns, or even the internal core, or some combination." (http://www.civil.usyd.edu.au/wtc.htm#why).


In a hundred years of tall city buildings, this kind of collapse has never happened before. Never. It was not predicted by any of the experts involved when the WTC towers were built. But now that it has happened, everybody understands it perfectly and nobody is surprised.

Is this civil engineering in the Third Millennium -- a galloping case of perfect hindsight?

Scientific American, prestigious journal of cutting edge science, remarked:

Despite the expert panel's preliminary musings on the failure mechanisms responsible for the twin towers' fall, the definitive cause has yet to be determined. Reportedly, the National Science Foundation has funded eight research projects to probe the WTC catastrophe. The American Society of Civil Engineers is sponsoring several studies of the site. Meanwhile the Structural Engineering Institute of the American Society of Structural Engineers has established an investigative team to analyze the disaster and learn from the failure
(http://public-action.com/911/jmcm/sciam )

Amazing: At least ten independent professional studies for an incident every professional seems already to understand. Notwithstanding the apparent lack of answers and all these studies not yet done, the very next paragraph is headed, "How the Towers Fell," and the reader is treated to a shotgun assortment of speculations, each delivered with the beard-stroking and pipe-puffing certainty that no explanation would ever be seriously challenged.

I have found only one expert candidly admitting his surprise. This was Mark Loizeaux, president of Controlled Demolition, Inc. of Phoenix, MD:

Observing the collapses on television news, Loizeaux says the 1,362-ft-tall south tower, which was hit at about the 60th floor, failed much as one would like (sic) fell a tree. That is what was expected, says Loizeaux. But the 1,368-ft-tall north tower, similarly hit but at about the 90th floor, "telescoped," says Loizeaux. It failed vertically, he adds, rather than falling over. "I don't have a clue," says Loizeaux, regarding the cause of the telescoping. (http://public-action.com/911/jmcm/USYDENR ).

There was one highly qualified engineer in New Mexico who thought the collapse could only happen with the help of demolition explosives, and he was foolish enough to make the statement publicly.

Romero is a former director of the Energetic Materials Research and Testing Center at Tech, which studies explosive materials and the effects of explosions on buildings, aircraft and other structures.

Romero said he based his opinion on video aired on national television broadcasts.

Romero said the collapse of the structures resembled those of controlled implosions used to demolish old structures.

"It would be difficult for something from the plane to trigger an event like that," Romero said in a phone interview from Washington, D.C.

Romero said he and another Tech administrator were on a Washington-area subway when an airplane struck the Pentagon.

He said he and Denny Peterson, vice president for administration and finance, were en route to an office building near the Pentagon to discuss defense-funded research programs at Tech.

If explosions did cause the towers to collapse, the detonations could have been caused by a small amount of explosive, he said.

"It could have been a relatively small amount of explosives placed in strategic points," Romero said.

The explosives likely would have been put in more than two points in each of the towers, he said.
(Article at http://public-action.com/911/jmcm/ABQjournal ).

But Romero recanted ten days later and admitted the whole thing was perfectly natural and unsurprising. I wonder what happened in those ten days to make him so smart on the subject so quickly. The retraction is now displayed above the original on the Albuquerque Journal web page.

And then, as though demonstrating how normal this "building collapsing" phenomenon is, WTC buildings Six and Seven "collapsed," too:

Other buildings -- including the 47-story Salomon Brothers building -- caved in later, weakened by the earlier collapses, and more nearby buildings may still fall, say engineers. ( http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/world/americas/newsid_1540000/1540044.stm , or: http://public-action.com/911/jmcm/BBCNews ).

(These ruins are shown in aerial photo
).

It seems no building in the area, regardless of design, is immune to galloping WTC collapse-itis. It never happened in the 20th Century, but welcome to the physical universe laws of the Third Millennium.
http://www.thepowerhour.com/911_analysis/laws-of-physics.htm
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petgoat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-23-06 04:58 PM
Response to Reply #217
281. Most structural engineers were surprised when the World Trade Center tower
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eyepaddle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-24-06 04:52 PM
Response to Reply #281
339. Did you see what else most structural engineers said (according to NOVA)
Most structural engineers were surprised when the World Trade Center towers collapsed.

Engineers believe that part of the reason why the towers remained standing as long as they did after impact was because of redundancy in their design: The weight of upper floors pushing down on columns lost in the impact was transferred to other columns nearby that were left intact.

Only four people escaped either tower from above the floors where the planes struck, using what appears to have been the only stairwell not destroyed or blocked by the impacts: Stairway A in the South Tower.

One of those survivors recalled that when struck by United 175, the South Tower swayed in one direction for seven to ten seconds before swinging back and stabilizing.

The World Trade Center was designed to withstand hurricane-force winds.

It was also designed to withstand the impact of a Boeing 707, though engineers apparently did not take into consideration the plane's fuel load.

Each plane that hit the Twin Towers released an estimated 10,000 gallons of flaming jet fuel into the buildings.

Temperatures of the fuel fire may have reached 2,000°F.

Though no evidence has turned up that the fires burned hot enough to melt any of the steel, eventually the steel lost 80 percent of its strength because of the intensity of the fire.

While there are signs that the fire melted aluminum from the fuselage or wings of at least one of the planes, there is no evidence that the aluminum burned.

Many structural engineers feel the weak link in the chain within the towers was the angle clips that held the floor trusses between the interior and exterior steel columns.

The angle clips were smaller pieces of steel than the columns and therefore gave out first.

Each floor was designed to support approximately 1,300 tons beyond its own weight, but when one or more gave way in the intense fire of the impact zone, the combined weight of higher floors crashing down reached into the tens of thousands of tons.

Each tower weighed about 500,000 tons.

There was no chance of either tower tipping over, for a 500,000-ton building has too much inertia to fall any way except virtually straight down.

Each 208-foot-wide building would had to have tipped at least 100 feet to one side in order to move its center of gravity from the center of the building out beyond its base.

Each building collapsed in about ten seconds, hitting the ground with an estimated speed of about 125 miles per hour.

The collapse was a near free-fall. With no restraint, the collapse would have taken eight seconds and would have impacted at about 185 miles per hour.

The reason the 110-story towers collapsed into a rubble pile only a few stories high was that they were about 95 percent air.

The roughly 300,000 tons of steel from the World Trade Center is fully recyclable and represents just a single day's production by the U.S. steel industry.

Sources

Note: Unless otherwise specified, all sources are NOVA/WGBH.

7. "Towers Fell as Intense Fire Beat Defenses, Report Says," by James Glanz and Eric Lipton, The New York Times, 3/29/02, p. A14.
8. Ibid, p. A1.
13. "Why Did the World Trade Center Collapse? Science, Engineering, and Speculation," by Thomas W. Eagar and Christopher Musso, JOM: The Journal of the Minerals, Metals, and Materials Society, December 2001, available at www.tms.org/pubs/journals/JOM/0112/Eagar/Eagar-0112.html
15. Ibid.
17. Ibid.
18. Ibid.
20. Ibid.


That changes the meaning of the link a bit, doesn't it?
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karlrschneider Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-23-06 08:54 PM
Response to Reply #215
311. Well, DU is like a fairly large town and even a village has at least one
idiot.
:eyes:

I'm done with this. I should've known better.
:grr:
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sabbat hunter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-23-06 03:56 PM
Response to Reply #206
265. some
not all of the fuel burst out of the building. mainly only from the right fuel tanks. the ones in the left side of the plane and the center of the plane went into the building. the picture is deceptive/wrong.

a majority of the jet fuel went into the building. despite the spectatular explosion.



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petgoat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-23-06 05:00 PM
Response to Reply #265
283. a majority of the jet fuel went into the building.
It went into the building at 450 mph. It broke through drywall partitions and windows and went right
on out of the building at 300 mph.


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MrSammo1 Donating Member (788 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-23-06 02:34 PM
Response to Reply #202
239. I love the scene........
where we can see the flashes of the explosives in the lower part of the towers.

Talk about a smoking gun?


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Speck Tater Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-23-06 12:18 PM
Response to Original message
211. Watch the video...
The collapse started at the floors where the aircraft impacted. Once that weight started down, nothing was going to stop it.

IF there were bombs then they were planted at exactly the floors where the impact took place. Now image a person who had never physically flown a plane before approaching a building at 400 or 500 knots, counting floors as he approached so he could hit the building at exactly the floor where the bombs were planted.

Ridiculous!
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petgoat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-23-06 05:14 PM
Response to Reply #211
286. planted at exactly the floors where the impact took place.
A radio beacon planted in the building would make a nice target.

I don't see where you get the idea that charges had to be at the impact zone. If they were above the
impact zone, they would have caused the weight of the entire top of the building to fall on the
weakened impact zone, right? If they were below the impact zone they would cause the entire top of
the building to fall eight floors.

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truckin Donating Member (500 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-23-06 12:58 PM
Response to Original message
216. I cannot comment on the validity of these calculations but one
question I have is this: If you believe in the MIHOP theory, why would the conspirators go to the trouble of taking down building 7? Wouldn't bringing down both Twin Towers be enough for them to reach their goal of going to war with Iraq and othe strategic areas? It seems to me that if building 7 was intentionally brought down by insiders, it would only serve to create speculation and not help with their ultimate goal. Anyway, those are a couple of questions from a casual observer of this issue.
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longship Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-23-06 01:07 PM
Response to Original message
218. BenBurch, thanks for this.
I've been responding to 9/11 MIHOP posts here for some time now.

One calculation I did here was the energy release of an 757 airliner collision.
Using the kinetic energy equation, E = .5 * m * v^2 and a mass of an airliner and the velocity the planes were flying it came out about 2 billion joules. That ignores the instant ignition of the jet fuel which would add significantly to the energy. This energy was released in a matter of a fraction of a second. If one conservatively estimates half a second, the equivalent explosion is not a small one.

I find it incredible that MIHOP claims that the most incompetent regime in the history of mankind could somehow successfully pull off the most wide-reaching and complex conspiracy ever. With disappearing airliners full of people, invisible missiles, controlled demolitions without witnesses in building with tens of thousands of occupants, a conspiracy so immense (as McCarthy would call it) that cast of characters would be in the high thousands without a single person coming forward as a witness to the putative events.

This strains parsimony well beyond the breaking point. Unfortunately, all this does not stop people from believing in a fiction. I am totally puzzled why people would deliberately deceive people into believing such easily debunked claptrap.
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Twist_U_Up Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-23-06 01:29 PM
Response to Reply #218
221. Benburch has been debunked throughly
I am totally puzzled why people would deliberately deceive people into not believing such obvious FACTS
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benburch Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-23-06 01:41 PM
Response to Reply #221
225. Debunked?
By your hand-waving arguments? Puh-lease!
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Twist_U_Up Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-23-06 01:56 PM
Response to Reply #225
227. just scan the threads
its obviously transparent
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longship Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-23-06 01:47 PM
Response to Reply #221
226. Obvious?
Disappearing airliners are not obvious. Invisible missiles are not obvious. Unwitnessed planting of controlled demolitions are not obvious.

What's obvious about this entire matter is that the MIHOP crowd ignores known fact. There were millions of people who were eyewitness to the actual collisions at the WTC. There were hundreds (thousands?) of people who were eyewitness to that actual collision at the Pentagon. The science behind the collapse of WTCs 1, 2, and 7 are very well understood and extremely well documented.

But MIHOPers ignore the eyewitness accounts and the science and continue to talk about things like "squibs", missiles, disappearing airliners, invisible controlled demolitions, buildings toppling like dominoes, and other silly stuff which has precisely zero basis in fact.

MIHOP is based on ignorance and an agenda other than the truth.
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Twist_U_Up Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-23-06 02:01 PM
Response to Reply #226
229. So beyond obvious its silly
Just proves that certain individuals refuse to look at the Facts and have their own political agenda.

The name calling and slandering of a group of folks are the only things certain people have to save their reputations or continue their smoke and mirrors campaign.


its just blatantly obvious.
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greyl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-23-06 03:12 PM
Response to Reply #226
247. Don't worry too much.
Worry a little, but not too much. ;)

There are plenty of people who aren't fooled by the empty accusations and unsupported conclusions.
(not enough, but plenty)
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petgoat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-23-06 06:44 PM
Response to Reply #226
303. Your gradiosity is self-discrediting
millions of people who were eyewitness to the actual collisions at the WTC.

Television witnesses are not eyewitnesses, and how many people actually saw the Naudet Brothers
clip?

The science behind the collapse of WTCs 1, 2, and 7 are very well understood

Then why was FEMA mystefied by the WTC7 collapse, why did NIST privatize and delay its WTC7
report, and why do the two largely uncriticized official stories of tower collapse (the
flimsy-truss-clip zipper theory of MIT and the super-strong-truss-clip NIST theory) completely
contradict each other?

But MIHOPers ignore the eyewitness accounts and the science and continue to talk about things like "squibs", missiles, disappearing airliners, invisible controlled demolitions, buildings toppling like dominoes, and other silly stuff which has precisely zero basis in fact.

First of all, CD doesn't necessarily mean MIHOP. Al Qaeda could have donw it. Squibs have basis in fact--the video evidence. Buildings do topple like dominos. Look it up.

You need to spend about twenty-fice hours on this web site http://911research.wtc7.net/ before you
embarrass your cause any more.
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Twist_U_Up Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-23-06 08:43 PM
Response to Reply #226
308. I'm MIHOP whats my "Agenda" ?
Get bush ?

and you call us trolls

My agenda is to find out just what the fuck we are up against and every day it becomes a little more clear.
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dchill Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-24-06 02:45 AM
Response to Reply #308
322. "...every day it becomes a little more clear..."
Exactly. Don't you find it odd that this thread has gotten so huge without anybody pointing out the obvious shallow fallacy of the O.P.? I find that the official theory supportes are more into self-aggrandizement than any quest for truth. Now that's an "AGENDA".


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petgoat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-23-06 05:17 PM
Response to Reply #218
287. cast of characters would be in the high thousands
Edited on Thu Feb-23-06 05:18 PM by petgoat
Please estimate numbers.

I say 40 al Qaeda hijackers, 10 in the WH and military, maybe 20 to plant explosives (and these
could have been the same people as on the al Qaeda team).

The distraction through the war games was key.

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Woody Box Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-23-06 03:11 PM
Response to Original message
246. Why don't you debunk Professor Steven E. Jones' research?
With your physical knowledge and the numbers and all that? I'm looking forward for a decent rebuttal.

http://www.physics.byu.edu/research/energy/htm7.html

The weakest point of the official WTC collapse theory, as adressed by Prof. Jones, Kevin Ryan, and many others, is that the heat of jet fuel is no way capable of melting the steal cores of the building. I was looking for the word "steal" in your piece in vain. :shrug:

This is your contribution to the important first seconds of the collapse:

When the aircraft hit each building, they did considerable damage to the load-bearing walls on the exterior of the building, and their fuel burned along with the contents of the structure (a considerable source of fuel) and eventually weakened the entire structure enough to partially fail, and to sag just a bit. Didn't have to be much... An inch or two.


As opposed to the rest of the text, an amazing lack of data, numbers, and formulas, it seems to me.
Who do you want to impress with that?
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greyl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-23-06 03:17 PM
Response to Reply #246
249. Again? It's been done.
Btw, it would help if you spelled "steel" correctly when searching for it.

As explained before, the steel didn't need to become "molten" for the buildings to collapse.
However, there is a plausible theory that molten aluminum caused thermite reactions which further explain the weakening of the steel structure.
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Woody Box Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-23-06 03:33 PM
Response to Reply #249
255. OK
Edited on Thu Feb-23-06 03:38 PM by woody b
Sorry for the "steal", English's not my first language. But "steel" doesn't do much better.

The "molten steel" was the official explanation for the collapse ever. Where's your "plausible" "molten aluminum caused thermite reactions" theory? Link, please?

I still want to hear a rebuttal by benburch to Prof. Jones. This here:

Bad science. I know that report well. They are totally wrong. is not satisfying me.


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greyl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-23-06 03:48 PM
Response to Reply #255
261. One rebuttal to Jones and a "thermite reactions" explanation
Edited on Thu Feb-23-06 03:53 PM by greyl
There are a few pdfs and plenty more food for thought here

With an update from 2 days ago specifically regarding Jones:


And another Greening article suggests that perhaps a thermite reaction really did play a part in the collapse of the WTC... Though not for the reasons commonly assumed. Click here to read it
(PDF file, updated February 20th to address Professor Steven E. Jones “Experiments testing Greening's hypothesis regarding Molten Aluminum”).



I urge you to read it with an open mind and draw your own conclusions about the veracity of the arguments presented.

edit: conclusion of the updated pdf:


In conclusion I would say that Prof. Jones is, of course, entitled to his opinion, but I
would argue that his “simulation” lacks most of the key conditions that were present in
the WTC impact zones on 9-11, namely prolonged fires ignited by aviation fuel,
sustained by burning plastics, paper, furniture, etc, that directly heated water, aluminum
and rusted steel in the presence of crushed concrete and gypsum. I challenge Prof. Jones
to repeat his tests under these conditions and publish the results.
F. R. Greening
Feb 20th, 2006
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dchill Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-23-06 05:37 PM
Response to Original message
289. "damaged building #7 so badly that it later fell."
that's actually more far-fetched than LIHOP, MIHOP and Moe put together. I'm guessing that professional demolitions firms carry around some kind of portable shock absorbers to keep this from happening during their gigs.

I respect you, Ben, but THREE buildings that day collapsed into their own footprints, each with supposedly different forces in play. Straight down. I got your ejecta right here.

;)
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MrSammo1 Donating Member (788 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-25-06 12:13 AM
Response to Reply #289
343. there must have been
extra strong gravity that day!

;o)

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TrueStory Donating Member (112 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-23-06 06:04 PM
Response to Original message
293. Atomic bomb releases it's energy in a few micro-seconds
Edited on Thu Feb-23-06 06:12 PM by TrueStory
whereas the WTC1 and WTC2 collapse lasted for couple of seconds => the power of the 1 kT atomic bomb is 1 million times bigger than WTC collapsing power => comparison to a bomb not good.

but even if we accept that WTC7 was hit by a bomb, this would be the first time in the history when a building gets hit by a "bomb" in the morning - the building has no visible damages - and than it collapses in the afternoon.

Of course you don't want to reach scientific consensus with your calculations - you are just fuelling controversy - similar to this case:
http://www.zmag.org/content/showarticle.cfm?SectionID=57&ItemID=9651

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dchill Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-23-06 06:14 PM
Response to Original message
295. Your THEORY is FULL OF HOLES!
1,764,000,000,000 Joules. Your formula appears to be for a hermetically sealed universe where one could theoretically pick up and drop BOTH twin towers at the same instant, with all that accumulated and accelerated mass hitting the bedrock at once. In point of fact, the towers gradually crumbled to the ground ONE AT A TIME.

I don't even need to dig into your "theories" about "considerable damage to the load-bearing walls on the exterior of the building" or "their fuel burned along with the contents of the structure (a considerable source of fuel)." - or coked molten metal that doesn't disprove deliberate demolition any way you slice it.

"Also note that the air within the tower was compressed, and like air compressed in a bicycle pump, heated up." Noted. That would actually deter the accumulation of downward force.

Admit it - the force of the falling floors was mostly absorbed by the sequential collapse of each successive floor as each tower fell. It wasn't even additive, let alone instantaneous. The towers became their own shock absorbers.
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benburch Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-24-06 10:35 PM
Response to Reply #295
340. Energy is neither created nor destroyed in a mechanical interaction.
Edited on Fri Feb-24-06 10:36 PM by benburch
No matter HOW you take that material to grade level, all of that energy comes back to you, every joule of it. And on that day, with the towers falling in that span of time, it came back explosively.

The Universe IS hermetically sealed with respect to energy conservation in non-nuclear interactions.
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dchill Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-24-06 11:19 PM
Response to Reply #340
341. Your potential is dissipating.
I was, of course, talking about your hermetically sealed mindset toward science, as you see it. You have unexpectedly given me a flip, off-hand reply that ignores the facts. Unfortunately, that is common in this forum. I feel that anyone here has the right to expect a serious answer to a serious post. Of, course, the energy "comes back to you" - but it does so over time, a uniquely insulating factor. I could personally deliver all the joules in both twin towers with a tack hammer. If I had the time. Your theory combines all those tack-hammer blows into one punch.

Quoting you from another post: "I think Liberals have ignored the truth..."

Everybody ignores the truth that they don't want to see. That includes me; it includes you. If you care about truth and respect and all that happy stuff, then it's time that you admit that you were wrong, that you made a sophomoric mistake with your theory and your formula. The entire mass of the twin towers never came close to realizing the potential that you continue to so frantically continue to defend as "scientific fact." You and every other MIHOP skeptic in this thread have buried your heads in the sand like so many born-again ostriches. You refuse to even answer the FACT that the mass of the towers would have to be dropped from a great height to get even close to the solution your formula delivers.

The problem, of course, is that the towers were both sitting firmly on bedrock, and their mass, for the most part, remained relatively static when the shock absorbing qualities of the gradual, chain-reaction collapses are accounted for. (Not to forget your compressed air theory, which would add to the effect.) Sure, there were recordable seismic events, but not anything close to the "atom bombs" that you are claiming. The events were comparable to a 2.4 Mw earthquake:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/sci/tech/1554560.stm

I happen to live about 2 miles from the epicenter of a quake that happened in 1999.

http://www.seismo-watch.com/EQS/AB/98/980925.235.OH5.2.html

It was 4.5 Mw and it sounded and felt like a large truck ran into my house. The only damage I could find anywhere was a two-foot-long hairline crack in a drywall joint on one wall. Since the Richter scale is base-10 logarithmic, the quake near my home was a shade over 100 times as powerful as the tower collapses. And my house is a 108-year-old foursquare with the central chimney/beam support. In other words, it's no Building #7.

From Wikipedia:

(Richter) 2.0-2.9 Very minor - Generally not felt, but recorded.
(Richter) 4.0-4.9 Light - Noticeable shaking of indoor items, rattling noises. Significant damage unlikely.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Richter_scale

No, I am NOT a physicist. I have no degree, but I can tell how things work. And how, like your theory, they don't. Call it common sense based on some basic background, or call it Stupid, like some other DU members do.

Science, as much as I love it, is a subjective, hit-and-miss process in real-world practice. It is virtually impossible to get every variable included, let alone calculated correctly. Many in this forum think that their formulae are "hard science", when in point of fact there is no way to obtain even remotely factual results without verifiable data.

Yours is an error of omission combined with lack of verifiable data. No one knows how much damage the planes did to the towers, and no one knows how much, if any, effect the tower collapses had on WTC7. Those are the facts.

I, on the other hand, just go with what is reasonably obvious. That, too, is fraught with potential for error. But it's based on what I see. Let's not forget Occam's Razor.

Sincerely.

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dailykoff Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-25-06 03:34 PM
Response to Original message
345. "Two half-kiloton atom bombs went off in Manhattan on 9/11!"
For all I know you're right about that. As for the rest, there are so many looney tunes piled on looney tunes it's hard to know where to start. So let's start with Building 7:

"In effect two synthetic pyroclastic pulses, by analogy with the remarkably similar effect that occurs in some volcanic eruptions.... damaged building #7 so badly that it later fell."

Tell me again how many steel-frame highrises have been reduced to rubble by "volcanic eruptions"? And why these "pyroclastic pulses" had no effect on the AT&T and Federal buildings on either side of WTC7?

:crazy:
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