Friends at DU I need your help - re 9/11 MIHOP or LIHOP

[never_get_over_it]

I know this topic has been discussed a great deal here in the past....but I have been hesitant to go much beyond LIHOP but last night after listening to Mike Malloy I finally watched Loose Change - think it must be the first edition because I watched it from the internet - but now my brain is spinning with the thought of MIHOP

For several years I have had NO PROBLEM believing LIHOP - because I wouldn't put much past these people and also that would be a somewhat easy thing to do - just ignore the warnings and let it happen.

But MIHOP is TOO DIFFICULT for me to get my head around for three basic reasons

1. this would be so incredibly henious and despite the fact that I hate this administration and believe them capable of any terrible murderous occurrence - to believe they would actually do something this despicable to their own fellow citizens is very hard to take - although of the three reasons - this one is probably the weakest

2. I had a coworker on the plane that "hit" the Pentagon. I spent a year in training with her including one four week stint as a roommate - if her plane didn't hit the Pentagon what happened to it and to her. I also have a coworker who had a daughter on one of the planes that hit the WTC. Am I right in assuming folks who believe MIHOP think that none of these planes hit the supposed targets or just the Pentagon. And by the way I have absolutely no doubt that the PA plane was shot down.

3. To do something like this would involve SO MANY people. How could SO MANY people be involved and keep their mouths shut?

So basically I need your help with these questions?

What happened to the three planes two at WTC and one at Pentagon
And how could so many people be involved and keep it quiet

Thanks in advance for your thoughts - I don't know who in the world I could discuss this with - people think I'm crazy when I say they rigged the 2004 election....not so much for the 2000 election though.

[applegrove]

1. It happened the way it unfolded on TV. You know better than most.

A horror. WH has exploited everything about Americans - so it is hard for some to know what "is" is.

[sabbat hunter]

2. MIHOP

would also mean that the current * regime is actually competant, which they arent.

[Laelth]

18. It is a serious mistake IMHO to believe ...

... these people are incompetent. They are incompetent only when they choose to be. Otherwise, they have proven to be highly effective at getting exactly what they want, time and again, almost without fail. Bush's only failure to get what he wants, so far, was the Social Security fiasco. Otherwise, the neo-con agenda is moving right along.

-Laelth


Edit:Laelth--clarity.

[Lerkfish]

3. It could all have unfolded as stated in the press and STILL be MIHOP

In other words, the planes could have hit the pentagon like we have been told, the WTC could have collapsed as we've been told as a natural occurence to being hit by a jetliner, the PA plane could have been taken down by passenger revolt against the terrorists. All that could have happened as we are told and it still be MIHOP.

All that MIHOP requires is to believe that its possible black ops CIA or whatever stealth intel organized or directed the hijackers and told them what to attack. black ops could have arranged their flight training, or told other agencies hands off. That would still make it MIHOP, if they were actively involved in some way in any stage of the planning.

You don't have to buy into wtc collapse theories or nonairplane at the pentagon theories at all -- those are separate theories, and while they would go a long way towards corroborating MIHOP, they are completely unnecessary.

In fact, there is no large group of people required for MIHOP. All it would take is Tenet telling the black ops guys to tell the hijackers "its a go".

In fact, there is a lot of intriguing evidence for just what I'm saying: agencies being told to look the other way who happened upon Atta, for example.

don't get bogged down in ancillary theories that may or may not prove true, that has no bearing on whether Bushco ordered or orchestrated the hijackings.

[never_get_over_it]

7. That is much easier to believe

I really can't get my mind off the plane not hitting the Pentagon - I lived in Northern VA at the time - how could the plane not hit the building with all the people in the DC metro area and nobody has come forward to say that its BS - and if the plane didn't hit the Pentagon what happened to my coworker....

That probably is my biggest problem - I can't stop thinking about her - and I am kind of freaked out that is why I have stayed away from this topic for so long - but Mike Malloy "forced" me to look at Loose Change finally

[Cleita]

4. The problem with MIHOP is that there is a lot of

circumstantial evidence but no hard proof. One of these days, I hope, some evidence will come to the surface or maybe a whistleblower will tell what they know and then the proof will be there at last.

[jschurchin]

5. Let me preface this by saying....

I am a MIHOP thinker and I believe the planes hit the Towers and the Pentagon. I do have some questions about the circumstances with the hijackings, but your thread is not about that.

Just to let you know your statement,

"Am I right in assuming folks who believe MIHOP think that none of these planes hit the supposed targets or just the Pentagon. And by the way I have absolutely no doubt that the PA plane was shot down."

Not All MIHOPers believe that.

Now as far as this goes,

"3. To do something like this would involve SO MANY people. How could SO MANY people be involved and keep their mouths shut?"

May I ask your opinion on how many people do you believe need to be involved? Just a ballpark figure.

[never_get_over_it]

6. You know I'm not sure

as I said my head is spinning with what I saw on Loose Change -

that the planes could have hit all three buildings and used the hijackers to accomplish this - and I guess that wouldn't have taken too many people and those type of people would most likely keep their mouths shut

but if you think that the WTC was set up as planned demolition - devices would have had to be planted throughout the building to accomplish this - I would think that would take several people

and if the plane didn't hit the Pentagon - where did it go and wouldn't people have seen it - my friend is gone what happened to her

I've just always been of the mind if you get more than a couple of people involved in a conspiracy the risk goes way up for it to get out

like I said my head is spinning I don't know what to think....

[jschurchin]

8. I know how you feel........

as far as the head spinning thing goes. I have to take time now and then and get away from all the thoughts and theory's out there.

Remember this though, almost everyone follows orders. There are but a select few that answer to no one. If your boss asked you to do a certain job that was in your job description, would you question it?
Probably not, you would just do it.

There are a select few who KNOW what happened on 9-11-2001 and they are not talking, the rest, unknowingly, did what they were told. Some of them may question "I wonder if what I did had any effect on what happened?" but do not have the Direct knowledge to say unequivocally, Yes.

[orleans]

9. yeah, my head was spinning too when i first watched it

which was fairly recently.
then i watched it again. and again. then i watched the 2nd edition (which is also on google videos) several times.

i did not know anyone who died on 9/11. i did not know anyone on those planes. it would make this MIHOP even more unbearable if i knew someone whose life was ended in this travesty.

i know there are holes in the mihop theory--but there are so many holes, in my opinion, in the government's story.

i guess you just have to think it over, start reading up on it more, watch the videos again...it's like pieces of the puzzle that we're all struggling with and trying to put together, trying to wrap our minds around it. it's hard.

a friend of mine told me: "i just can't go there." and i understand. and it's okay. it had never occurred to him until i mentioned it a few months ago. but i put it out there--he's thinking about it. and he'll deal with it when he can.

i liked the advice of jschurchin.

i'm so sorry about your friend.

[Kevin Fenton]

19. Don't worry

My head span too when I first heard the idea 9/11 was a false flag operation, but I shouldn't worry too much if I were you.
I haven't seen the Loose Change video, how big did they say the hole was in the Pentagon? It wasn't 18 feet or something silly like that, was it?

[dchill]

10. "How could SO MANY people be involved...

...and keep their mouths shut?" I don't know, but I suspect that the main operation was run out of the Pentagon, where the people ARE competent AND know how to keep their mouths shut.

I have no idea what hit the Pentagon, but it doesn't seem even remotely possible that it was a huge commercial airliner. Not enough debris, not a big enough hole. That leaves one airliner full of people unaccounted for, I know, but that's how I see it.

[IChing]

11. You have go through the disinformation persons that are always here

And form your own scientific conclusions on logic and evidence

BASIC OBSERVATIONS OF UNIVERSAL LAWS OF GALILO THAT HE EXPOSED ON GRAVITY TO THE CHURCH AND GOT SLAMMED FOR IT.

Fascism, and disinformation from the normal players here

will never answer you inquiry on what you think is the truth.

The people here( Who, never , I meant never post in in other forum)
never post on any other thing
except to disprove this forum

NEVER
NEVER
NEVER
they make the 7 lies of thought


You know i do have a star and a search with that power

[Jose Diablo]

12. I see hardly any difference between LIHOP and MIHOP

As for the stuff about no people in the planes, I don't believe it. There were real live people on those planes and I see no reason to make the events more complicated by suggesting swaps of aircraft in flight or on the ground.

As for LIHOP, for an agent of the government, that knows something is about to happen, but for political reasons 'lets it happen', to me that is the same as making it happen. That person becomes an accessory to the crime by not acting within their power to act to prevent and stop the act.

Now there was much discussion about Condi, when she said a phrase called 'not swatting flies' that she supposedly heard from Bu$h. What does this mean, 'not swatting flies'. When Clinton passed the baton to Bu$h, and gave specific warnings to new administration about terrorist activities, 'not swatting flies' means go ahead, let them do their worst. We will in-effect let them attack and then go from there to clean them out once and for all. And what we saw in early 2001 was this administration doing exactly that. Not spending any money or effort to prevent terrorists from attacking. Even ignoring threat assessments to let it happen on purpose.

This is LIHOP and to admit that he was willing to allow 3,000 citizens die so that he could get more power to do what he wanted to do, that is abetting a crime. Thus my take that LIHOP and MIHOP is the same thing.

As for MIHOP, I don't see how it would take that many people to make it happen and to insure our defense posture stood-down to let them in.

The put options on company stocks that would be effected by 9/11, that indicates certain people with a lot of money knew what was going down.

The pictures of molten metal dripping from the towers just before collapse and the molten metal being dug-out of where the basement was in the towers, there is no way to explain this unless someone with access to the towers beforehand placed charges inside the building. Who were these people? Not the hijackers that for sure.

As for the real identities of the hijacker pilots, do we really know for sure who they were. Or were they actually not really OBL's boys. We just don't know.

Then the after investigations that to me look more like a cover-up to prevent people from knowing what exactly happened. If it wasn't an inside job or done by one of our 'allies' why not come out and say who done it? At each turn we hear how 'security' prevents us from telling the people what happened. Whose security? Ours or the perpetrators of 9/11.

It's very difficult to believe that our government would let us down, even allowing it to happen and then let those that did it get away, to escape justice. But for the above reasons, I have no choice but the believe they made it happen on purpose.

[Name removed]

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[rman]

14. re the planes, read up on operation Northwoods

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Northwoods

Even if a plane hit the Pentagon, there were probably no passengers on board (as in the case of WTC).
If any passengers were involved at all, they were gotten rid of.

Once you accept the possibility of it being an inside job, it means 'the government' was prepared to sacrifice thousands in the WTC, so why not a few hundred passengers, either in the crashes or otherwise.

Op Northwoods also shows that certain elements in the govt are indeed that malicious. Many of same individuals involved then are in the game now more so then ever before.

[rman]

15. re. So many people involved

While all in all many people are involved, they don't all need to know every detail of the entire operation.

You don't need that in a non-secret large coordinated operation (such as war), nor is it needed if the operation is secret.

People only need to know what they need to know to do their part. In many cases they can do their part while knowing virtually nothing.

For instance in Iran-Contra, the pilots who did the actual drug-runs on Nicaragua probably knew they were participating in a larger seem, but they did not need to know what it was.
The pilots did not need to be coordinated with everyone else who was participating, they only needed to get their orders about when to be where and who to contact. The rewards they received and the fact that they knew what they were doing was illegal, was more then enough reason for them not to talk.

Also, just look at what happens to those who do talk; whistle blowers (ie Sibel Edmonds) are silenced (gag order because of state secrecy) and virtually nobody listens to them anyway, not in the last place thanks to the MSM.

[libertypirate]

16. They lied to start a war, what else do you need?

On the other hand, Adolf Hitler wrote about the “Big Lie” approach in his infamous Mein Kampf :

In the big lie there is always a certain force of credibility; because the broad masses of a nation are always more easily corrupted in the deeper strata of their emotional nature than consciously or voluntarily; and thus in the primitive simplicity of their minds they more readily fall victims to the big lie than the small lie, since they themselves often tell small lies in little matters but would be ashamed to resort to large-scale falsehoods. It would never come into their heads to fabricate colossal untruths, and they would not believe that others could have the impudence to distort the truth so infamously. Even though the facts which prove this to be so may be brought clearly to their minds, they will still doubt and waver and will continue to think that there may be some other explanation. For the grossly impudent lie always leaves traces behind it, even after it has been nailed down, a fact which is known to all expert liars in this world and to all who conspire together in the art of lying. These people know only too well how to use falsehood for the basest purposes.... (Hitler, 1925, p. 134)

[Duer 157099]

17. Exactly. Besides, one needn't even look at this abstractly

as with Hitler's words.

Just look at his actions, what he and his countrymen were indeed capable of. I'm surprised when people doubt MIHOP on the basis of not believing that a government is capable of such evil. History, people, history. Innocence and naivety are nice for children and dreams, but this world is far different, unfortunately.