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theSaiGirl Donating Member (184 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-28-06 07:28 AM
Original message
Impossibility of Flying Heavy Aircraft Without Training
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Jose Diablo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-28-06 08:02 AM
Response to Original message
1. Category 3 using autopilot
Edited on Tue Feb-28-06 08:31 AM by Jose Diablo
But then again we get back to Hanni, there is no way this guy could have done it. Ground effect at 500mph with this type of aircraft brings other problems, not insurmountable IMO, but it still comes back to Hanni, this guy could not have been the one to do it. So who was at the controls of AA77?

Edit: And what was the location of the 'controls'. I wonder, did any witnesses report a 'following' aircraft, in addition the commercial aircraft. Something like an EP-3
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DoYouEverWonder Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-28-06 08:10 AM
Response to Reply #1
2. What exactly
was AA77?

I can't find a 757 with passengers and crew and I've looked and looked.

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Jose Diablo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-28-06 12:27 PM
Response to Original message
3. An interesting site from UAE
http://www.uaeinteract.com/news/default.asp?ID=185


Star Navigation to open ground station in Dubai
posted on 07/11/2001

<snip>

The groundbreaking technology continually collates information via a satellite network through a broadband data link with individual aircraft. Data is analysed real-time and any deviation from normal system data parameters is highlighted and the necessary course of action taken. Real-time data is available on a variety of systems such as an aircraft's engines, electrics, hydraulics, avionics, flight performance and route data.

The traditional blackbox plays a central part in any aviation accident investigation. However, retrieving this item can take considerable time and resources, and more importantly it is after the fact, he added.

The new ISMS-Star system provides real-time information on individual aircraft anytime, anywhere allowing real-time response. The ISMS system also allows for real-time cabin and cockpit audio and video monitoring providing an aviation equivalent of CCTV. In addition, the system is a cost-effective fleet management tool analysing an aircraft's performance and keeping track of an aircraft's maintenance requirements, enabling engineering staff to strategically place the necessary equipment and parts before landing. A remote control aircraft override is being developed, which will enable the aircraft to be flown via ISMS should a hijacking occur.
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Jose Diablo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-28-06 12:42 PM
Response to Reply #3
4. Interestingly, Star Navigation
Edited on Tue Feb-28-06 12:56 PM by Jose Diablo
A Canadian Company makes no current reference to the ability of a ISMS equipped aircraft to be remotely piloted. Let me see, it has been 5 years since 7/11/01 and the company makes no references about remote control, I wonder. Here take a look at the ISMS system as it's currenly offered.

http://www.star-navigation.com/productExisting.php

Strange, huh? I wonder if UA and AA were customers for this ISMS system in early 2001?

Edit: As for the TSA 'protecting' us. If it's impossible to hijack a plane now, well to fit other plans, there are always plenty of people that want to be rent-a-cops, they enjoy control over people, and this administration is happy to give them jobs doing what these people enjoy doing. Am I the only one that remembers the rent-a-cops when they first came out, protecting hamburger joints from unruley youth, pushing their way around, being big shots to 9th graders.
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Jose Diablo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-28-06 01:27 PM
Response to Original message
5. I wonder if there were any employees of Star Navigation
aboard the hijacked aircraft on 9/11.

You know, one of the directors of Star Navigation happens to be a "Ibrahim AlHamer", here is his Bio:



Ibrahim AlHamer Director

Mr. AlHamer is a successful business executive with several years experience in the aerospace industry. His many accomplishments include being the Chief Executive Officer of one of the largest airlines in the Middle East. He has also served as the Undersecretary of Civil Aviation in the Ministry of Transport in Bahrain for more than 9 years. Mr. AlHamer is also the former Chairman of the Executive Committee of the Bank of Bahrain and Kuwait, Chairman of the Board of Bahrain Hotels Company and was an executive board member of companies specializing in Aviation, Petroleum, Aluminum and Housing.


I'd be interested in finding out more about him.
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Twist_U_Up Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-28-06 02:01 PM
Response to Original message
6. Everybody was Kung Fu Fighting
Edited on Tue Feb-28-06 02:02 PM by Twist_U_Up
Whats the naysayers take on Hani? He was the equivalent of a Bruce Lee -Steven Segal............. lol

http://physics911.net/sagadevan.htm

In fact, here’s what their flight instructors had to say about the aptitude of these budding aviators:

Mohammed Atta: "His attention span was zero."

Khalid Al-Mihdhar: "We didn't kick him out, but he didn't live up to our standards."

Marwan Al-Shehhi: “He was dropped because of his limited English and incompetence at the controls.”

Salem Al-Hazmi: "We advised him to quit after two lessons.”

Hani Hanjour: "His English was horrible, and his mechanical skills were even worse. It was like he had hardly even ever driven a car. I’m still to this day amazed that he could have flown into the Pentagon. He could not fly at all.”


Now let’s take a look at American Airlines Flight 77. Passenger/hijacker Hani Hanjour rises from his seat midway through the flight, viciously fights his way into the cockpit with his cohorts, overpowers Captain Charles F. Burlingame and First Officer David Charlebois, and somehow manages to toss them out of the cockpit (for starters, very difficult to achieve in a cramped environment without inadvertently impacting the yoke and thereby disengaging the autopilot). One would correctly presume that this would present considerable difficulties to a little guy with a box cutter—Burlingame was a tough, burly, ex-Vietnam F4 fighter jock who had flown over 100 combat missions. Every pilot who knows him says that rather than politely hand over the controls, Burlingame would have instantly rolled the plane on its back so that Hanjour would have broken his neck when he hit the floor. But let’s ignore this almost natural reaction expected of a fighter pilot and proceed with this charade.

Nonetheless, imagine that Hanjour overpowers the flight deck crew, removes them from the cockpit and takes his position in the captain’s seat. Although weather reports state this was not the case, let’s say Hanjour was lucky enough to experience a perfect CAVU day (Ceiling And Visibility Unlimited). If Hanjour looked straight ahead through the windshield, or off to his left at the ground, at best he would see, 35,000 feet -- 7 miles -- below him, a murky brownish-grey-green landscape, virtually devoid of surface detail, while the aircraft he was now piloting was moving along, almost imperceptibly and in eerie silence, at around 500 MPH (about 750 feet every second).

In a real-world scenario (and given the reported weather conditions that day), he would likely have seen clouds below him completely obscuring the ground he was traversing. With this kind of “situational non-awareness”, Hanjour might as well have been flying over Argentina, Russia, or Japan—he wouldn’t have had a clue as to where, precisely, he was.

After a few seconds (at 750 ft/sec), Hanjour would figure out there’s little point in looking outside—there’s nothing there to give him any real visual cues. For a man who had previously wrestled with little Cessnas, following freeways and railroad tracks (and always in the comforting presence of an instructor), this would have been a strange, eerily unsettling environment indeed.

Seeing nothing outside, Mr. Hanjour would be forced to divert his attention to his instrument panel, where he’d be faced with a bewildering array of instruments. He would then have to very quickly interpret his heading, ground track, altitude, and airspeed information on the displays before he could even figure out where in the world he was, much less where the Pentagon was located in relation to his position!
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jschurchin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-28-06 02:14 PM
Response to Reply #6
7. Very well said.
Edited on Tue Feb-28-06 02:15 PM by jschurchin
A little common sense goes a long way. Be prepared though, to some members of the DU, common sense is not their strong point.
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Jose Diablo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-28-06 04:27 PM
Response to Reply #7
8. No kidding
Edited on Tue Feb-28-06 04:33 PM by Jose Diablo
We will hear about their experiences flying when they were 8, or what their brother-in-law the ex pilot has to say about how easy the maneuver is at the Pentagon. Or how they will go to a simulator and test for themselves, no doubt to come back and say no problemento, piece-a-cake.

The BS in here gets pretty thick. Oh, then they will say prove-it, that Hanni couldn't have done it.

Personally, I think there are disinformation specialists in here, and then the last appeal, 'Oh, my neighbors, brother's second cousin's friend was killed in the WTC', so don't question what I say is truth.

Edit:Spelling and syntax
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dchill Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-28-06 04:45 PM
Response to Reply #8
9. I have PERSONALLY flown a 757...
into a building with Microsoft Flight Simulator, so I KNOW it's not only possible, but that there's no other possible explanation.

:sarcasm:
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Jose Diablo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-28-06 04:51 PM
Response to Reply #9
10. Laugh Out Loud
Ya 'got it'.

:toast: :freak:
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dchill Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-28-06 05:01 PM
Response to Reply #10
11. Like shooting quail with Dick Cheney.
;)
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Jose Diablo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-28-06 05:08 PM
Response to Reply #11
12. I was thinking about Cheney shooting his lawyer bud
Edited on Tue Feb-28-06 05:13 PM by Jose Diablo
It's too bad he didn't take-out the supreme he likes to hunt with up there at that 'hunt' club close to Pittsburg I think it is.

Now that would be justice, as in street justice.

Edit to add: Might even call it Divine Justice.
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dchill Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-28-06 05:11 PM
Response to Reply #12
13. If only! n/t
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Jose Diablo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-28-06 05:16 PM
Response to Reply #13
14. If that were to happen
You can bet there whould be many Atheists say right here on the board, "There is a God".
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dchill Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-28-06 05:43 PM
Response to Reply #14
15. That was very nearly what I almost said...
in my previous post, but I'm a confirmed agnostic (in so many ways) and didn't want to use, "From your lips to God's ears." That would have been insincere of me. :)
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Old and In the Way Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-28-06 10:27 PM
Response to Reply #9
16. Me too!
In fact, I have a 767 flight at 7000 feet at cruising speed on the same bearing that 77 was flying. The first 6 times, I destroyed the airframe trying to find the right combination of airbrakes, power, and banking to line up and hit the Pentagon. That is one extremely difficult maneuver, particularly to hit on the bearing that it did. If it was traveling 450MPH, that's even more amazing. If it were traveling that speed, how would any eye-witness have had time to absorb any details of the flying craft? The aircraft is covering 1 mile in under 10 seconds.....
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reprehensor Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-28-06 10:41 PM
Response to Reply #16
17. One chance.
And it must be perfect.
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dchill Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-28-06 11:09 PM
Response to Reply #16
20. "destroyed the airframe"
LOL. Me, too. Several times. And like some of the hijackers, I'm still alive!
:freak:
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Old and In the Way Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-01-06 03:03 AM
Response to Reply #20
21. MS really ought to enhance their in air break-up routines....
thing just freezes in mid-air. :-) I survived many a crash myself!
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mirandapriestly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-28-06 11:06 PM
Response to Reply #6
19. Hilarious. I've never seen it spelled out like that.
What we are expected to believe is preposterous, really.
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Poll_Blind Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-28-06 11:05 PM
Response to Original message
18. The article gives interesting perspective- thanks for posting it! n/t
PB
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