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pretzel4gore Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-31-06 10:41 PM
Original message
simple question about 911
recently, a local talkradio host was talking about 911 and he mocked the 'conspiracy' theorists, in his words because if there was a conspiracy involved in the wtc attack, then someone would have ratted. Obviously, the guy's being intentionally obtuse, but he does point out something that begs an answer. Mihop or Lihop, the wtc event had to have required a great deal of 'contingency' planning. Even one pitbull newsman, questioning the weird going ons that occurred on sept11th/01, could have created a noise that, once it started, could have made so much of what busheviks have done since then, difficult if not impossible.. Had even one news organization linked the horrorshow on 911 to the well plotted out horrorshow on nov7/00 and dec12/00 when bush was basically crowned king of amerka, a vast number of people would have taken notice. Yet none did. Not even ONE!
The question is, given that there's an outright criminal group who have plotted to take over the country then used the tools of power to Lihop/Mihop whatever, how is it no one with a national voice has stepped up and said 'the entire thing has been staged, 3000 people were sacrificed for a political agenda' and so on? If the 911 event was staged, surely some irrefutable concrete evidence would have been produced by someone more interested in making history then living well quietly? If, for example, the wtc apartments were stripped of the rich tenants' belongings; surely some mover or driver or security guard would call the local news, and mentioned it? All those punks like norquist and cheney and rumsmell and asscroft and (?)...they all had aides who knew what was going on, surely? if explosives were placed in the towers, or if global hawk technology was used to hit them, or if flight 587 was sabatoged, or paul wellstone/mel carnahan planes, someone with more courage then brains would tell, somehow? Yet no one has.
maybe the official story, as messy and improbable as it is, is the nearest to the truth. could that be piossible? WTC # 7 was obviously demolished with prepared charges, yet what must be a complex acheme involving several people still goes years w/out any mention, any hard proof being produced...
it's like god has gone over to the dark side....
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FtWayneBlue Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-31-06 10:45 PM
Response to Original message
1. Charlie Sheen's take was told on CNN for 3 nights running. When
it started to grow real legs it was squashed.
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aquart Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-31-06 10:45 PM
Response to Original message
2. It's an emergency number.
And I get really tired of this crap.
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pretzel4gore Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-31-06 11:00 PM
Response to Reply #2
5. the damn jalopy is winning the indy 500!
though it has flat tires, no fuel, it's belching smoke and fire, and its driver's dead drunk....yet millions are betting the family homestead on it? and it's laps ahead of the rocketfueled whizzmobiles...
something better start making sense soon, or i'm taking up dope
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-31-06 10:49 PM
Response to Original message
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-01-06 12:25 AM
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seemslikeadream Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-31-06 10:53 PM
Response to Original message
4. DO THE MATH
BUDDY BUDDY

DO THE MATH

24 MINUTES

THERE MUST HAVE BEEN A MILITARY ORDER
WATCH THIS VIDEO

http://www.bushflash.com/buddy.html
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niyad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-31-06 11:00 PM
Response to Original message
6. read the thread "sept 11 left s with a host of questions" for a bit of
insight. also, I believe that the WTC was primarily offices, not a residential facility of any kind.
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ladjf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-31-06 11:00 PM
Response to Original message
7. No one ever stepped up to explain who was behind the Kennedy
assassination. Al tough, lots of possible witnesses seemed to have a rash of "dying".

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sce56 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-31-06 11:35 PM
Response to Reply #7
12. Look at this site for interesting evidence

http://www.jfkmurdersolved.com/bush.htm
Hey where did that third shell casing go?
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Minnesota Libra Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-31-06 11:01 PM
Response to Original message
8. Please allow me to at least attempt to answer this by backing up..........
in history and referring you to a different situation entirely.

This is going to age me but I remember all to well the day John Kennedy was killed. Since that day, many books have been written on the issue and almost every year "new evidence" is discovered. Yet, more than forty years later no real answers have ever come to light as to who truly killed Kennedy. The one thing we do know is that Oswald did not do the job alone, he was simply a convenient fall guy. But we don't know the names, addresses, reasons for being involved of everyone that had a hand in the event. Pure common sense tells us though that such a huge event couldn't have been pulled off with the kind of secrecy that has surrounded Kennedy's killing without a lot of government involvement.

Getting back to 9/11, the day the towers were hit by those planes it quickly became evident that it was more than a few crazed Middle Eastern fanatics. The one thing that brought back so much from Kennedy's killing was the instantaneous assumption that Middle Eastern Muslim fanatics were responsible. You know, the instant built in answer thing. For me, that said volumes and yet we haven't gotten any concrete answers either. So again, a cover up this huge could only be pulled off by our government and believe people know better than to talk. No, I don't think anyone will step forward to tell the real truth for a very long time. When someone does finally come forward they will be attacked as providing conspiracy theories only.

When our government wants to do something big they can get it done without having too many people know about it. The people who do know won't talk anytime soon. Does any of this make sense??



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ladjf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-31-06 11:07 PM
Response to Reply #8
9. I had an idea recently that might be worth mentioning.
Several reputable scientists have stated that the WTC buildings were brought down by pre-placed explosives. That may well have been the case. But, there has been no proof.

My idea: The color of any fire is mostly determined by the chemistry of the fire source. If the explosions were the source, then a spectroscopic analysis of the flame color should clearly show the presence or absence of known explosive materials. I am assuming that the analysis can be done from film as well as in real time. (Astronomers use this technique to determine the chemical makeup of stars, comets, ect.)

Does anyone on DU know whether or not anyone has attempted such a test?
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sce56 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-31-06 11:42 PM
Response to Reply #9
13. How about some photos showing the explosions poping out of the WTC
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mirandapriestly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-01-06 01:19 AM
Response to Reply #9
16. Dr Jones shows on his site that there is white flame/smoke
which then turns orange. This is consistent with thermite which obtains high enough temperatures to cut steel.
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file83 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-01-06 01:49 AM
Response to Reply #9
20. It can't be done from film/video. It has to be a direct analysis of the
light source. Good idea, but no longer possible.

One other thing that might be interesting...I just read that the Deutsche Bank tower which is still vacant was going to have scientists go in and try to gather samples of human bone still there to compare DNA to the victims known to have died.

My idea is, why don't they gather the dust in those offices and analyse it for traces of explosives?
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neoblues Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-31-06 11:07 PM
Response to Original message
10. Nobody could make a noise that could be heard...
nowadays. The Bush bunch have no worries that the media will cover anything substantive; it's easy work smearing and discrediting anyone who does speak up--and despite all the people who have, few even listen. It almost seems that most people don't want to know; and it's such a gigantic crime that if it is true (and while it's confusing what is and is not true and what's been planted as evidence versus what is evidence versus the fact that most evidence has been destroyed; in any case it's certain there was a vast amount of complicity and nefarious activity on the part of the government) the implications are hard to come to terms with.

What do we do if the BA did orchestrate the whole thing (with only a little help, potentially, from a few unwitting hijackers)? It'd be the greatest imaginable crime in history; and we're powerless to prove anything (somehow) and we're probably powerless to do anything about it (unless we truly can convince a vast majority of Americans of the real complicity; and convincing many people that the Sun rises in the East every morning almost seems impossible). If we couldn't demand a political impeachment of an entire branch of government; immediate elections or some such... what then.
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ladjf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-31-06 11:13 PM
Response to Reply #10
11. It does seem like that somewhere, somehow, someone who
knows will eventually "spill the beans" and I mean by that in a irrefutable way.
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neoblues Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-01-06 08:25 AM
Response to Reply #11
26. Wishful thinking.
Though, once there is a Democrat majority in Congress and President... maybe then--of course, the trail will be all that much more cold and lost in the past (and it's pretty far gone as is--especially given all the evidence that has been forever destroyed). Besides, it's such an enormous, multi-faceted operation--any ten people coming forward, even with evidence, would barely scratch the surface of the iceberg). We may never know, but then again, if even a few parts could be definitively explained and blame assigned--such that the main players could be brought to justice; that may be enough (the thing is, we need it now--we needed it then... to finally stop the serial killer after his 50th victim when he should have been stopped after his first is precious little comfort to the following 49 and their families (analogy to the damage Bush has caused since 9/11)).
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Rich Hunt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-31-06 11:52 PM
Response to Original message
14. they DID rat
Edited on Fri Mar-31-06 11:53 PM by Rich Hunt
They just did it in such a way as to protect their asses.

But look around - the character of many a group, institution and board changed dramatically after 9-11, and you just have to recognize the m.o. and put the pieces together and it's obvious.

Look at what changed since 9-11 and you will know - look at what history has been re-written. Look who is suddenly suffering from amnesia and you will know....

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JohnyCanuck Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-01-06 01:25 AM
Response to Original message
17. Want to know what happens when somone spills the beans?
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file83 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-01-06 01:44 AM
Response to Reply #17
19. Perfect example.
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Kai Donating Member (84 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-01-06 01:37 AM
Response to Original message
18. Whistleblowers
Edited on Sat Apr-01-06 01:39 AM by Kai
I am including an excerpt from Wikipedia's entry on 9-11 Conspiracy along a link to Sibel Edmonds website. Sibel would love to tell us more but she has be constrained from doing so by John Ashcroft and the "Justice Department".

Sibel Edmond's website:
http://www.justacitizen.com/

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sibel_Edmonds

On December 11, 2003, Attorney General Ashcroft, again invoking the State Secrets Privilege, filed a motion calling for Edmonds' deposition to be suppressed and for the entire case to be dismissed. The judge, seeking more information, ordered the government to produce any unclassified material relating to the case. In response, Ashcroft submitted further statements to justify the use of the State Secrets Privilege, and on May 13, 2004, took the unprecedented step of retroactively classifying as Top Secret all of the material and statements that had been provided to the Senate Judiciary Committee in 2002 relating to Edmonds' own lawsuit, as well as the letters that had been sent by the Senators and republished by POGO.

On June 23, 2004, the lawfulness of the retroactive reclassification was challenged in a suit filed by POGO, citing fear that the group might be retroactively punished for having published the letters on its website. The Justice Department tried, but failed, to get the suit dismissed, and said that POGO could not prove that it was being threatened with prosecution. On February 18, 2005, the day before a hearing on the case, the Justice Department, under the leadership of a new Attorney General, backed away from its claim that those particular documents were classified, and approved their release in full. <1> <2> It is not clear whether this concession affects the publishability of other statements and documents relating to Edmonds; the Justice Department's gag order, of sorts, seems to remain in effect, since a court has not determined whether the department actually has the authority to retroactively reclassify the documents.

In the meantime, however, the reclassification was successful; Edmonds was barred from testifying in the 9/11 class action suit, and on July 6, 2004, her own suit was dismissed on state secrets grounds. Edmonds immediately appealed the latter decision.

The day the appeal was filed, the Inspector General released an unclassified summary of a highly classified report on an investigation that had concluded “that many of her allegations were supported, that the FBI did not take them seriously enough, and that her allegations were, in fact, the most significant factor in the FBI's decision to terminate her services. …Rather than investigate Edmonds' allegations vigorously and thoroughly, the FBI concluded that she was a disruption and terminated her contract.” <3>

But on April 21, 2005, in the hours before the hearing of her appeal, three judges issued a ruling that barred all reporters and the public from the courtroom. During the proceedings, Edmonds was not allowed into the courtroom for the hearing. On May 6, 2005, when her case was dismissed, no reason was provided, and no opinion cited.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/9/11_conspiracy_theories#Other_points_of_interest

Whistleblowers

Depending on how many of the above theories one believes, the list of collaborators needed can grow or shrink. Opponents of these theories say that one weakness of the conspiracy claims is the absence of credible whistleblowers.

While many researchers in opposition to the above conspiracy theories suggest that a conspiracy would require silencing a vast number of individuals, the proponents of those theories tend to disagree. On speculation alone, author David Ray Griffin has argued that many of the people involved would likely not know the full extent of the plot. Griffin theorizes so few individuals have come forward out of fear from threats, possibly in regards to family or employment. In an interview with the Santa Barbara Independent, Griffin states: "You have a wife and children, and somebody says to you, 'If you go public with that I cannot guarantee the safety of your family.' Griffin does not cite any examples of this occurring.

Griffin also argues that many would likely feel they have little incentive to come forward, given the lack of interest on the part of the mainstream media thus far. "You might just be denounced as a conspiracy kook. The press would ignore you, belittle you. People might look into your past and find that you had done some things you're not so proud of. People would learn very quickly to keep their mouths shut." In spite of these supposed repercussions, he claims a number of whistleblowers such as Kevin Ryan, Sibel Edmonds, and David Schippers have chosen to speak out.
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file83 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-01-06 02:04 AM
Response to Original message
21. Simple answer: Compartmentalization. The only people that know
the "big picture", that is, the entire plot, are probably very few in number and would NEVER come forward because it's against their best interest. The other people involved (directly or indirectly) simply don't know enough to substantiate any accusations that they could make. Not to mention they could face very serious legal/health consequences if they aren't very careful in coming forward. They may also not know WHO they can trust, since they don't know how far the planner's power reaches.

Some may also think that what happened was not so bad, and maybe even that is was good (it's possible to have people that are that blindly patriotic - study the psychological case studies of officers/soldiers involved in the Holocaust).

Some people have come forward with "suspicions", circumstantial evidence, whistleblowers essentially, but they are either gagged for reasons of "National Security" (Sibel Edmonds) or discredited (David Ray Griffin).

It's also quite possible that some direct operatives (i.e., the people that planted the explosives in the towers) were probably killed in other "dangerous military operations" or "in the line of defending their country" by "unfortunate accidents".

So, to answer your question, the reason no "one" individual has come forward is because either they no longer exist, they've tried but have been blocked from finding the truth, or they have ZERO reason to - they are currently benefitting from 9/11 and it's continuing coverup.
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Peter Frank Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-01-06 02:22 AM
Response to Original message
22. If the fall of the towers was lihop/mihop...

...then everyone with knowledge of the planning & execution would have known the price of coming forward -- for themselves and their families. If PNAC was willing to sacrifice the American lives in the towers (for the greater good of America), to a person -- every potential whistle-blower would have had extremely persuasive second & third thoughts.



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dailykoff Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-01-06 02:49 AM
Response to Reply #22
23. Right, plus all those Naval Intelligence guys
incinerated in the Pentagon and all those Raytheon guys on the Pentagon plane.

Apparently just knowing too much can get you killed, never mind asking inconvenient questions.
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Peter Frank Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-01-06 05:31 AM
Response to Reply #23
24. Well said...

Given our current culture -- who's willing to take on this gov.?

Too bad that most leading Democrats lost their balls after 911.


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pretzel4gore Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-01-06 07:34 AM
Response to Original message
25. thanks all....
Simone Weill was right: fictional good and evil are opposite in reality-in fiction, 'evil' is exciting and a thrill, while good is boooring; but in reality it's opposite, 'good' is thrilling, wonderful, while evil is boring and a fukking drag! Maybe nothing unusual happened on '911' (sorry Aquart) beyong the old contest for the human soul, as documented in every story ever written, or in every movie or play ever acted! The evil wins almost by default, but then reality kicks in and the good cleans up the mess....
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RedSock Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-01-06 09:42 AM
Response to Reply #25
27. keeping secrets
Daniel Ellsberg, "Secrets: A Memoir of Vietnam and the Pentagon Papers":

It is a commonplace that "you can't keep secrets in Washington" or "in a democracy," that "no matter how sensitive the secret, you're likely to read it the next day in the New York Times." These truisms are flatly false. They are in fact cover stories, ways of flattering and misleading journalists and their readers, part of the process of keeping secrets well. Of course eventually many secrets do get out that wouldn't in a fully totalitarian society. Bureaucratic rivalries, especially over budget shares, lead to leaks. Moreover, to a certain extent the ability to keep a secret for a given amount of time diminishes with the number of people who know it. As secret keepers like to say, "Three people can keep a secret if two of them are dead." But the fact is that the overwhelming majority of secrets do not leak to the American public. This is true even when the information withheld is well known to an enemy and when it is clearly essential to the functioning of the congressional war power and to any democratic control of foreign policy. The reality unknown to the public and to most members of Congress and the press is that secrets that would be of the greatest import to many of them can be kept from them reliably for decades by the executive branch, even though they are known to thousands of insiders."

paperback, page 43

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