in their own words . . . 22 firefighters on 9/11 . . .

[OneBlueSky]

some of these are difficult to read, so be forewarned . . .

http://www.firehouse.com/terrorist/911/magazine/gz/

[Arbustosux]

1. some hards words

.

[TrogL]

2. Guess what somebody had to say about building 7

http://www.firehouse.com/terrorist/911/magazine/gz/hayden.html

By now, this is going on into the afternoon, and we were concerned about additional collapse, not only of the Marriott, because there was a good portion of the Marriott still standing, but also we were pretty sure that 7 World Trade Center would collapse. Early on, we saw a bulge in the southwest corner between floors 10 and 13, and we had put a transit on that and we were pretty sure she was going to collapse. You actually could see there was a visible bulge, it ran up about three floors. It came down about 5 o’clock in the afternoon, but by about 2 o’clock in the afternoon we realized this thing was going to collapse.

...

It was a heavy body of fire in there and then we didn’t make any attempt to fight it. That was just one of those wars we were just going to lose. We were concerned about the collapse of a 47-story building there. We were worried about additional collapse there of what was remaining standing of the towers and the Marriott, so we started pulling the people back after a couple of hours of surface removal and searches along the surface of the debris. We started to pull guys back because we were concerned for their safety.

Controlled demolition my ass.

[TrogL]

3. bit more about building 7

http://www.firehouse.com/terrorist/911/magazine/gz/modica.html

7 World Trade was burning from the ground to the ceiling fully involved.

http://www.firehouse.com/terrorist/911/magazine/gz/norman.html

We have guys trying to make their way up into the pile, and they’re telling us that 7 is going to fall down – and that was one of the directions from the command post, to make sure we clear the collapse zone from 7 and this is a 600-foot-tall building

[TrogL]

4. adding to the collection

http://www.firehouse.com/terrorist/911/magazine/gz/visconti.html

I remember standing there looking over at building 7 and realizing that a big chunk of the lower floors had been taken out on the Vesey Street side

...

"7 World Trade Center, imminent collapse, we’ve got to get those people out of there".

...

I explained to them that we were worried about 7, that it was going to come down and we didn’t want to get anybody trapped in the collapse.

http://www.firehouse.com/terrorist/911/magazine/gz/boyle.html

...on the north and east side of 7 it didn’t look like there was any damage at all, but then you looked on the south side of 7 there had to be a hole 20 stories tall in the building, with fire on several floors. Debris was falling down on the building and it didn’t look good.

...

...there’s creaking, there are noises coming out of there...

...

There was a huge gaping hole and [fire] was scattered throughout there. It was a huge hole. I would say it was probably about a third of it, right in the middle of it.

...

...they were worried about it coming down...

The pattern repeats over and over. A fireman looks at tower 7 and sees extensive damage through out the building, especially on one side and using his professional judgement deems the building so close to imminent collapse that they pull everybody out of there. Nobody is the least bit surprised by the manner in which it collapses.

[LARED]

5. The silence is deafening.

Thanks for your efforts

[Bolo Boffin]

6. Here, here.

[plaguepuppy]

12. Some of us have day jobs and families...

I'll read it when I have a chance...

[LARED]

14. So

I can expect you to comment on these interviews after you have had a chance to read them? Good

I earnestly await to hear what you have to say, as many here (not me) hold your opinions as being scientifically founded having that degree from MIT in biology. You clearly have the credentials to speak of this matter in an authoritative manner or so I'm told. And of course everyone is entitled to an opinion.

As the so called man of science I would expect you to evaluate this information in a dispassionate manner and render an opinion.

To borrow a word, your "posse" must be eagerly waiting to get their talking points. Perhaps this explains the deafening silence to date.

[NecessaryOnslaught]

7. strange ass-ertations

"7 World Trade was burning from the ground to the ceiling fully involved."

CMON, why would you even post this? We have all seen the footage from the Naudet documentary. Where, in this footage, do you see one lick of flame? Other pictures from ground level show the enron & co. cookout on the 11th-13th floors, but I would hardly call that a fully involved fire.

"on the north and east side of 7 it didn’t look like there was any damage at all, but then you looked on the south side of 7 there had to be a hole 20 stories tall in the building, with fire on several floors."

Many buildings in the complex had similar, if not worse damage, and didnt suffer total collapse. Why would this type of damage on one side of the building cause it to collapse into its own footprint? Assymetric damage will not lead to a symmetrical collapse, regardless of what your oceania guide to physics tells you. It would be nice to see some pictures of the damage described but pictures of the south and west side seem to be to be non-existant.

[Bolo Boffin]

8. So all the firefighters here are liars, correct?

Just making sure I understand what you're saying.

[plaguepuppy]

13. All bolos are buffoons, therefore all firefighters reported enormous holes

Come on, even you don't believe he was implying that "all the firefighters here are liars", so this is just a cheap rhetorical ploy.

Does the fact that different people remember different versions of the same event make them all liars? Has anyone else reported seeing this "20 story tall hole" in WTC-7? Is there a picture of it anywhere? In all those hours after the first collapses, of all the thousands of pictures taken nobody captured this enormous damage? There are several pictures that show very minor damage to the southwest corner, but none that shows what you claim.

View from north-west:



View from north:



View from south and slightly east (the only picture I know showing visible damage to the south face):

[BassettWilliams]

18. Bending The Truth?

The photos in message #13 were taken very early in the day and several hours before conditions in WTC 7 changed for the worse and eventually collapsed. IMHO these do not show the full extent of the damages. I know that the fires became much larger, and I saw some very large fires encompassing several floors.

These same photos have been used many times in DU 911 threads to support claims that damage to WTC was minor. I do not know if there is simply a limited selection of photos to choose from, or if these photos that are posted time and time again are being selected just to bend the truth.

It's difficult for me, but I'll choose the first option and accept that there is a limited amount of pictures to choose from. There was a mass exodus from the area. This was a frightening event and people ran for their lives. Few if any stopped to shoot a roll of film. While most of the message makers here are very passionate in their beliefs, my hope is that no one will lower themselves to manipulate the facts with carefully selected photos that only support their claims or theories.

The problem I see with photographic evidence vs eyewitness testimony is that a photo, such as those in #13, can only show us one small fast blink of a much larger and longer lasting event. Since there is limited amount of photos to choose from, and those that are available are from early in the day, I'm compelled to go with the eyewitnesses.

[plaguepuppy]

21. being selected just to bend the truth.

I'd be more than happy to see more pictures if you can find them, but I don't appreciate the implication that I am hiding or choosing to ignore pictures that conflict with my view of the damage.

"The problem I see with photographic evidence vs eyewitness testimony..."

The problem I see is that witnesses can be wrong. Sure people left the area after the collapses, but that would bear on the availability of both photo and eyewitness evidence. Anyone shooting from south of the site should have been able to get a picture of the WTC-7 south wall, yet we seem to have no such pictures.

[Bolo Boffin]

22. Rest easy, plaguepuppy, the NIST investigation...

...has assembled an impressive visual database of the three buildings.

They have 6,194 photographs taken by more than 85 photographers. They have over 150 hours of videotape (5,726 different video clips) from more than 20 sources.

Do you have even one percent of this, plaguepuppy? How many photographs are you basing your theories upon? How much videotape? I'm willing to bet that you have one fifth of one percent of this material - maybe 120 pictures at most.

This information can be found at http://wtc.nist.gov . It is not a cheap rhetorical ploy. It's the facts.

[OudeVanDagen]

23. witnesses

I have to give 'props' to plaguepuppy. Witnesses can be wrong.

As humans we all make errors, and an exercise conducted in the early stages of training for new investigators proves it. The session starts with the group assembled in an auditorium expecting a film or slide show lecture. Just before the lights dip, instructors will have a colleague run onto the stage wearing a hat, a wind breaker scented with banana oil, jogging pants and sneakers. He will be waving a picket sign and shout a slogan of some sort. He will then jump off the stage, run through the class and exit.

The new investigators are then given questionnaires about the event they just became witnesses to; 20-25 simple questions about the direction of travel, the color and type of hat, the color of the sneakers, what sex, race and color and style of hair, what height and weight, what did the uninvited guest say, and etc.

Results of this exercise conducted in the early stage of training are not good. (One time a trainee tackled the colleague). Each unsuspecting witness made errors recalling this staged event, even with the potent banana oil scent.

Eyewitnesses asked to recall real events offer the same problems to investigators, so their testimonies are usually taken and weighed as the whole rather than the parts by investigators ... obviously litigation witnesses are a whole different ballgame.

The laws of a civilized society demand investigation. It is natural order for us to seek and hear witnesses, and for us to weigh their accounting of the event.

Witnesses can be wrong. True, but there are some exceptions to this generalization.

Police and firefighters are usually exceptionally good witnesses. Their day-in and day-out exposure to tense and emotion filled events numb their nerves and their recall is far more accurate than the excited layperson.

As an investigator I must first consider or weigh the firefighters testimony as a whole, allow it to take me in whatever direction it does, and then use the parts of the whole ... individual recollections ... to best define specific portions of the event. I have found that the firefighter accounts offered in this thread are very accurate and are a great aid towards understanding WTC 7.

One witness concern is the wanna-be; the guy who wasn't anywhere near and saw nothing, but claims he was and saw everything. Every event has those. The trained eyes and ears of an investigator will find this liar ... the press never does and never cares.

[BassettWilliams]

24. To plaguepuppy

My message states I have chosen to accept that there is probably a limited selection of photographs. I also stated the photos that you and several others have shown were taken very early in the day, and that they can not represent the later damage and much more serious conditions at WTC 7. While I personally have difficulty accepting claims of minor damage based on these photos alone, my expressed concerns were that they could be viewed as being selected just to support those claims.

Contributors to these forums are very passionate in their beliefs and theories. Unfortunatley I have found that some of the quotes that are selected to support those beliefs and theories are sometimes taken out of context, are not an accurate representation of the facts, or were not the intent of the article. If one sees that written words are being manipulated from time to time, one might also suspect that photos are selected just to bend the truth as well.

[LARED]

9. Assymetric damage will not lead to a symmetrical collapse,

Is the above phrase some sort of CT prayer or something?

I see google cowboys post it all the time and it is based on nothing other than faith so it must be a prayer.

[OudeVanDagen]

10. no that's

posse-speak, aka monkey see monkey do

[plaguepuppy]

15. Gravity: it's not just a good idea, it's the law!

"based on nothing other than faith"

Sure thing champ, that's why lumberjacks always stand on the side of the tree away from the "assymetric damage"(sic) when they make the last cut. It's not faith, it's just a good idea!

[LARED]

16. You must have great faith

the posse will read the lumberjack story and say "Ohh I get it" instead of recognizing it is more faith based monkey see monkey do.

[Name removed]

19. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

25. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[TrogL]

17. Don't believe everything you read on the Internet

That's a good way to get yourself killed. Gravity works. If the tree breaks loose at the stump it will kick backward and kill you. You see gravity goes down, not sideways like you seem to think it does.

[plaguepuppy]

20. And trees fall how exactly?

Oh of course, they sink straight down into their own root print, I've seen it a thousand times!


" If the tree breaks loose at the stump it will kick backward and kill you."


How many trees have you cut down sonny? You make a big cut on one side (the "asymmetric damage") but leave a big enough hinge for the tree to stay up, then make a small cut on the opposite side to make it fall. And as to towers falling, the picture at the top of the prior thread shows how the tower would indeed topple, somewhat like a tree:



Once the "hinge" region fails the force needed to continue to pivot becomes much smaller, sort of like static friction vs. sliding friction. The rest of that outer tube (236 14" square box columns ties together with 52" tall steel spandrel plates at each floor) will try to follow the path of least resistance by pivoting. Collapsing on its own axis represents the opposite extreme: the path of greatest resistance, like the tree telescoping on itself. In nature things like that don't happen, with or without magic phrases.

[TrogL]

11. That's just exterior damage

If you go through the various quotes, here's what you learn:

• at one point the building was "fully involved" in flame, ie. burning simultaneously from top to bottom
  
• something (presumably the fire) caused some external damage
  
• the building was so damaged internally that it was creaking and groaning
  
• the building was so structurally unsound the several firefighters could tell at a glance that it was going to collapse