How could this incompetent administration pull of MIHOP?

[Ignacio Upton]

FYI, I believe that 9/11 because of Bush's incompetence. I also don't rule out LIHOP, although I don't think we have enough evidence yet (emphasis on yet, since evidence implicating LIHOP could be what he's hiding.)

Can someone in the MIHOP camp explain to me why this administration, the same one that totally fucked up the planning in Iraq, and was in charge of FEMA during Hurrican Katrina, could have masterminded the worse terrorist attack on American soil? If you make posts in the 9/11 Forum about how the plane that hit the south tower had a missle pod, or that the passengers on board the planes were taken away to some secret location and held there indefinately, then how do you explain why the Bush Administration fucked up everyone from pre-war Iraq planning (ie. not guarding important military sites in Iraq, including sites that held potential hazardous material that was guarded by the U.N.) and couldn't mobalize FEMA for the people in and near NOLA? I don't trust them to get anything right, and judging by their record of incompetence, I don't see how they could have pulled off 9/11.

[Beam Me Up]

1. This administration may appear 'incompetent'

and, indeed, be so if you accept the point of view that what they are attempting to do is what they say they are attempting to do.

On the other hand, if you take the point of view that they are achieving the goals they have in mind, but use 'incompetence' (among other things) as ruses because their stated goals and their real goals are not one and the same, then you could come up with a different appreciation for their capabilities. Take 'no child left behind' as only one of many examples that could be pointed toward. If you actually believe the program is meant to help children, then, indeed, they do appear incompetent. But if you take the position that it is actually doing what it was intended to do, which is not help children, then you can begin to see what I'm getting at. There are many government programs ("operations" is actually a more appropriate word) that work like this. Take the "War on Drugs" as an example of an operation that has been in effect through several presidencies. The "War on Terrorism" (tm) is just a knock-off of the War on Drugs, which did not end drug abuse but did help fund the policing of our inner cities and the criminalizing of the poor and non-white while funding many covert operations.

But as I see it, it doesn't really matter. 9/11 wasn't done by "this administration" it was 'done' by a quasi-military 'black' operations group. These people, I can assure you, are NOT incompetent.

[mirandapriestly]

5. I agree, Bush& Co are not incompetent when it comes to

meeting their own goals. They want Americans to get the idea that the federal gov't is not going to be there to help them in the future, hence FEMA,etc.., that is also why they are bankrupting the treasury. As for the black operations group , sounds like a good idea for a new thread. Imagine the kind of technology/training/ & weaponry they would have. Stuff we don't even know about. As we go on about shaped charges, etc...I'm sure they have ways of demolishing a building in, well, 10-13 seconds flat!

[Desertrose]

13. I agree with you BMU

The incompetence is merely a ruse to achieve their goals...which they have done...and continue to do.

Peace
DR

[libhill]

59. Maybe the Black Ops boys aren't incompetent,

but the next time they pull an operation, they should better do a better job of tying up the loose strings. Like the little boner of at least five of the so called "hijackers", all of whom supposedly died in the "attacks", subsequently turning up alive and well. And the idiotic ploy of "finding" the undamaged passport of one of the suspects in the rubble heap. Yea, uh huh. They expect us to believe that jet fuel burned so intensely hot that it made steel melt causing the towers collapse, but a paper passport somehow floated down to ground level undamaged. Not unlike their insane bull shit of silencing witnesses to the Kennedy Assassination. If the ass-wads really expected the public to buy the "Oswald did it" Official Story, would it not have made better sense to leave the whistle blowers alone? As in: what, me worry? Give the appearance at least, that people like that are harmless crackpots who cause the Government no concern whatever. Harassing/ murdering witnesses has a tendency to draw public attention to the plight of the victims, and lend more credence to what they have to say. They may not be incompetent, but they're not the sharpest tools in the shed, either. In my opinion -

[pauldp]

71. The F.U. factor

I've heard David Ray Griffin speculate on what I call
the F*ck You Factor. Meaning they know a certain percentage of the population will figure it out, and deliberately making no effort to hide certain things or offering absurd explanations
makes them appear that much more brazen to those who have figured it out.
A great way to intimidate dissenters. After all the media will provide
enough cover for them no matter what.

"F*ck you. Yeah we did it. What are you gonna do about it pip squeak?"

[ConspiracyTheorist]

82. hehe, well said!

[dailykoff]

2. At least there's one thing they're good at. (n/t)

[Sinti]

3. I don't post about missile pods or any of that tripe.

Actually, I haven't even posted a proper opinion on MIHOP or LIHOP, I don't think. However, all of the examples you cite as incompetence actually work out well for the PTB.

If we had done a good job on Iraq, we'd already be out of there, and the defense contractors wouldn't be getting billions, and we would no longer control their oil. That, I believe in their minds, would be a real failure.

Why on earth would the haves and have mores give a damn about the poor people in NOLA, and elsewhere in the Gulf region? I'd expect they'd be happy to get them out of there. A kind of poverty reduction program in their eyes, methinks. If they die, well, they were poor anyway, and didn't know how live the good life, so they're better off.

Their apparent lack of concern for honest, working Americans (so-called incompetence) in the years since 2001 have probably added to the questions, rather than taken away from them.

:shrug:

[pauldp]

4. Ah, the good old incompetence theory...

Just ask Exxon Mobil, Unocal, Halliburton and GE if the Bush Administration is incompetent.

Their base is happier than they have EVER been.

Remember many in the MIHOP camp suspect that big corporations were in on it too.
Just read "Confessions of An Economic Hitman" by John Perkins. He explains how the black ops guys
really work for the big corporations and the World Bank.
Do you think the Defense and Energy industries are incompetent?

You are making some big assumptions - mainly that they really intended to get out of Iraq quickly,
and they really wanted FEMA to rescue the ninth ward in NOLA.

That said, are these guys geniuses? Hell No. Just look at building 7.
Only the American Media could cover up such a glaring mistake as building 7's collapse, Silverstein's comments,
and the destruction of the evidence.

Without the complicity of the media they would be exposed as the shitbag traitors that they are.

[Avalux]

27. I agree - they are not incompetent.

I fear believing they are will be our folly. Good post. :thumbsup:

[jschurchin]

6. The answer to your question is found....

in this quote by Beam Me Up,

"But as I see it, it doesn't really matter. 9/11 wasn't done by "this administration" it was 'done' by a quasi-military 'black' operations group. These people, I can assure you, are NOT incompetent."

People like these DO NOT talk about their missions EVER.
Don't believe me? Go look up Frank Forini, Gerry Patrick Hemming or Manny Hernandez. All of these men were CIA contract agents. See if they will tell you about any of their missions. I can assure you all of these men were involved in murder for hire. Ask for specifics, you will not get it from them. Wanna know why? You don't have the fucking need to know.

There are men and women who work in branches of the U.S. Government who will Kill without question, they DO NOT feel guilty about this. It is their job. If you feel differently about it you are living in a fantasy world. Go to your library, check out books about the U.S. Intelligence community, you may not like what you find out.

[Woody Box]

9. Yep

"But as I see it, it doesn't really matter. 9/11 wasn't done by "this administration" it was 'done' by a quasi-military 'black' operations group. These people, I can assure you, are NOT incompetent."

I second that. Just to add that the black op group had some key connections with individuals inside the administration. GWB probably did not belong to these individuals.

[jschurchin]

10. I agree.

100%

[rman]

7. Why would the military and various govt agencies not be capable of doing

what terrorist would be capable of doing? Are terrorists really that much smarter then Americans?
Or do you think that all the smart people are outside the government and all the stupid people are in the government? That's an implausible theory if i ever heard one.

Of all the clandestine covert operations by the CIA the only one they screwed up was the Bay Of Pigs, and then only because Kennedy messed with it, because he didn't like it.

Moreover, the government is incompetent only if you think they try to make things better for everyone - if you think they really wanted to liberate the Iraqi people and bring them democracy, if you think they really care about the troops and want to limit the number of casualties, if you think they were really trying to help the poor in New Orleans, etc.

[Bushknew]

8. Read this ....

post 9 in this thread:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=125x77532

[Christophera]

11. Realize It's A Theatre, And The Puppets Don't Run The Show

Recall,



the fall of the curtain at the end of the show?



So don't believe the puppet show in any way, and remember that irony is silent laughter for someone. In this case laughing at us.

Real strategy.

http://algoxy.com/psych/optimize_for_peace.html

[petgoat]

12. Consider that maybe Iraq is exactly as "they" wanted it

1. A $300 billion war offers many opportunities for public funds to go astray
2. Chaos means the no-bid contractors get paid for work nobody expects them to perform
3. Chaos keeps the Iraqi oil (which can be produced for $1 a barrel) off the market,
which pushes oil prices to $72 a barrel
4. Atrocities create an entire generation of future terrorists vowing revenge on the USA,
whatever it takes, which can be used to justify a surveillance state and space weapons
5. depleted uranium may well make Iraq uninhabitable, which will leave the oilfields
with no natural owners but the robots that pump the oil out
6. sectarian violence can easily be stirred up by the staging of a few incidents, and it
can easily be faked. Have you heard the stories about the destruction of the mosque in Samarra?
It sounds like the Iraqi National Guard planted the explosives while the US army guarded them.
Sectarian violence gives us an excuse to stay there and convinces middle Americans that Muslims
are a bunch of savages who need to be destroyed. This justifies continued high levels of military
spending.

It may very well be that Iraq is going very very well for its planners. Mission Accomplished.

[Old and In the Way]

14. The window dressing is incompetence.

Bush is the perfect front guy. He plays his role so well, no one could think he's smart enough to pull it off. And that's obviously true. But the people behind him are and they had been planning their Pearl Harbor for years. On 9/11, Bush played his role perfectly.

[iconoclastNYC]

15. Because it's not the Administration

It would be a military operation conducted out of the Pentagon.

[CJCRANE]

16. Reason: "Double-Truth".

Two truths:

One story for the masses.

The real truth known only to the elites.

That's how they do it.

[Debunking911]

17. It's not just the administration, it's an absurd amount of people...

http://www.geocities.com/debunking911/massivect.htm

[petgoat]

18. Bunk, every page I've looked at on that site has something

silly on it.

A lot of stuff there is just plain not true.

[Jazz2006]

21. Got milk?

[Debunking911]

23. Instead of just saying it

Why not point something out?

[petgoat]

26. "Why not point something out?"

Right at the start--the false premise that Bush failed at everything he did.

He stole two elections.
He successfully muzzled the media.
He subverted the Constitution and got away with it.
He's looted the public treasury.

I could write a whole essay on how the things Bush did are not failures.
They want to bankrupt the federal government. They want to divide the country.
They want to marginalize the poor.

Then they say that the article decrying the destruction the steel is in Fire House
magazine--everybody knows it's in Fire Engineering. They claim people twist the
words of the article to say it suggests controlled demolition. Nobody I know
does that. They use the article to point out that intelligent people objected
to the destruction of the steel and the inadequate investigation by FEMA ("a
half-baked farce").

Citing Popular Mechanics as an authoroty is silly. Read Jim Hoffman's essay on that
stupid piece.

Citing NOVA is silly. It's obsolete, and Eagar's theory was always absurd. Read
Jim Hoffman's essay on that.

The Debunking911 site is a lot like Dave Kopel's 59 deceits site about F911. It
looks impressive unless you know the facts.

[jschurchin]

19. You haven't thought about..........

this too much, have you. Have you ever studied a successful conspiracy before?

[Sinti]

20. You do know "too hard to cover-up" is a typical disinfo tactic, right?

I'm just saying...

However, having said that, the fact is once something becomes the "norm" in the mind of a group of people anything outside of the norm is grounds for exclusion from the group. Pure animal instincts tell people to stay within the norm, being outside of the group to our animal selves means risking starvation and death. The "norm" is the "norm" for that very reason, not because it's necessarily right.

Not only is your hypothesis wrong about all those people having to "be in on it," your facts are wrong in many cases.

[rman]

22. Ah yes, all the smart people are outside of the government.

Makes sense, right?

[Debunking911]

24. The flip side to that is

just because you get a government job doesn't automatically make you hungry to eat small babies. I realize power breeds corruption but many if not MOST of the people needed would be low level workers with no power at all. Simply people going to work everyday.

[rman]

25. Low level people only know what they need to know to do their job

Meaning they don't know much - in most cases by far their 'participation' in any govt conspiracy doesn't need to go any further than them just doing their job. It's similar to most US soldiers in Iraq thinking they are there to liberate the Iraqi people and to bring them democracy (alternatively, they are there because they don't want to let down their soldier buddies who are there as well) - doesn't mean it's not an illegal war based on lies and planned long before 9-11. They don't need to know about The Project For The New American Century in order to do their job.
Low level people are hardly a concern, and any crooks among them who are in on the conspiracy are there only thanks to higher level people (then still those crooks don't need to know a whole lot).

If 9-11 is an inside job then it's a clandestine covert operation (Black Op), done by agencies who have a history in black ops. So far the only black op that the CIA messed up was the Bay of Pigs - and they messed up only because JFK didn't fully go along with it. In other words, the people who actually do those operations are quite competent.

[politrix]

28. First, You Need A Nation Of Really Stupid People

Then, give them cable and tivo and ipods and sports.


Seriously, it's called "Crazy Like A Fox" - where the fox rolls around and acts crazy and lulls the prey into thinking he's stupid - then, he POUNCES on them.

It's also known as having a method to one's madness. It's also known as 'misdirection' - Bush is the hand with the magic wand in it that you can't take your eyes off, Cheney is the hand slipping the rabbit under the table that you never notice.


He's stupid alright, all the way to the bank with all our money. How stupid is that? And, what does that make us?

A retarded president has cleaned you out, sacrificed your kids and lives better than most of us ever will.

It's stupid to think he's stupid.

[Debunking911]

29. Take a look at some of the people you are accusing...

of helping the neo-cons with the largest mass murder in US history...















All these people would know if a plane hit the building or a missile. You are suggesting that ever single one is a 1) a neo-con 2) willing to cover up the largest mass murder in US history.

Which of these groups wouldn't be in on this..

-The Bush Administration, who failed at everything they ever did. Yet all of them and the people below are helping him cover up the largest mass murder in US history... Some of them like Richard Clarke and Paul O'Neil have come out for less.

-The NYC Fire fighters who know more about building collapses than most if not all of them. It's their LIFE to know. Literally! Yet they don't call for an investigation into the MASS MURDER of over 300 of their brothers... Why? (The twisting of these peoples statements for donations and DVD sales sickens me.) We have uncovered the myth about gag a rule imposed on all fire fighters. Only 9/11 conspiracy sites say this. ONE person who sued Bush for not taking action before the event is ordered by the court not to speak to the media about the case. This is not imposing a gag rule on the whole fire department as some of these sites claim. They are lying to cover up this mass murder by the government or the building owner. Why? They don't even know...

Conspiracy theorist bring up an article in Fire House magazine which says the fire department wanted to stop the steel from being sold in order to test the fire proofing and other non-bomb/controlled demolition related investigations. They twist the articles context to make it seem like the fire fighters questioned the idea that fire brought down the towers.

http://fe.pennnet.com/Articles/Article_Display.cfm?Section=OnlineArticles&SubSe%20ction=Display&PUBLICATION_ID=25&ARTICLE_ID=131225

http://fe.pennnet.com/Articles/Article_Display.cfm?Section=OnlineArticles&SubSection=Display&PUBLICATION_ID=25&ARTICLE_ID=130026

Many of these men and women come from the military yet we are to believe they are so afraid they rather die in the governments next mass murder than come out and expose this.

-The courts for imposing a gag rule

-The NYC Police department who lost over 20 lives. They didn't ask for an investigation. Motive? None...

-The NYC port Authority who lost personnel. Motive?

-All the people in the pentagon who have not called for an investigation. Many who are liberal and centrist. They did or said nothing while people supposedly truck in airplane parts to cover the crime. Why? again, no answer...

-The more than 1,600 widows and widowers of 9/11 who rather have investigations of the decisions which lead to the terrorist getting away with this. They don't want to waste time investigating the mass murder of their loved ones. Even the Jersey Girls. Why? They say it's the money...

-The media (This one I almost believe) who doesn't follow up on the biggest mass murder and conspiracy in American history. It seems no one wants a Nobel prize for journalism. Not only the American media but foreign press like like the BBC and Al Jeezera. Why? No answer here either...

-The photographers from around the world who took pictures of the towers which clearly show bowing of the perimeter columns. These photos support the NIST hypothesis that the sagging trusses lead to the collapse. Some photos also show the core intact shortly after collapse which also not only support the NIST hypothesis but discredits the "Controlled demolition" account.

-Popular Mechanics who debunked these sites are also helping Bush commit the biggest mass murder in history.

http://www.popularmechanics.com/science/defense/1227842.html

-PBS Nova since they created a documentary explaining in detail how and why the buildings fell. None of it said bomb.

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/wtc/

-Everyone in the NIST who covers up the largest mass murder in US history. This independent org doesn't have a moral person in hundreds of employees because not one has come out exposing this so called "Conspiracy". In fact the hundreds of scientist who signed onto the report are willing to not only lie for Bush but cover up the largest mass murder in American history. Some suggest only a hand full can do the job but that's simply impossible. The team in charge of the computer modeling has to be in sync with the team in structural engineers and so on. There are hundreds involved in this investigation and every team has to work other teams using the same evidence and specifications.

-NY Governor Pataki because he sold steel to from the WTC for the construction of the USS New York. If the argument is the government sold the steel in order to cover up the crime then Pataki is one of the criminals.

-The NY city scrap yards because they also sold steel to china before all of it was tested. Bush would have needed to call them up and tell them to sell it before they could have investigated every beam. A task which would have taken years and years not to mention millions more. Ironically the republican Mayor Bloomberg could not be involved since he asked the scrap yards not to sell the steel on behalf of the fire fighters.

-EVERY STRUCTURAL ENGINEER IN THE WORLD who doesn't write a paper for a mainstream peer reviewed journal saying the towers were brought down and could not have fallen due to fire. If laymen can prove things just by looking at videos and reading interviews out of context then all those structural engineers MUST be working for Bush right? Even the ones in other countries. Why? The answer they give is the engineers don't know about Jones work. So in all this time no one has e-mailed Jones's work to any structural engineer?

-The liberals who don't believe the towers were brought down. (Like me) They're helping a neo-con cover-up the largest mass murder in this nation’s history. Why" No clue...

-The CIA

-The FBI

-FEMA

-The American Society of Civil Engineers who have produced peer reviewed papers showing how what Conspiracy Theorist say is impossible is possible.

-NORAD

-The FAA who saw planes which conspiracy theorist never existed.

-The Silverstein Group who they say got together with Bush to blow up the building for insurance money.

-Silverstein's Insurance Company who didn't question the collapse and paid out over 2 billion to Silverstein. Why? Conspiracy Theorist say the insurance company just wants to pass on the bill to the public but they already fought Silverstein in a number of law suits concerning the amount.

-American Airlines (Pentagon)

-United Airlines (Pentagon)

-Logan, Newark and Dulles Airport for losing the planes

-Scientists and engineers who developed the remote control plane technology

-Installers of the remote control devices in the planes (Pentagon)

-Remote controllers of the planes (Pentagon)

-Scientists and engineers who developed the new demolition technology and carried out practical tests and computer models to make sure it would work.

-Installers of the demolitions devices in the three buildings

-People who worked at the company(s) the installers used as cover

-Airphone etc employees who said they got calls from passengers (Pentagon)

-Faux friends and relatives of the faux passengers or just the faux relatives who claim to have been called by their loved ones or just the psyops who fooled relatives into thinking they really were their loved ones. (Pentagon)

-People who detonated the buildings"

-anyone who thinks the conspiracy is a diversion to take liberal activist focus off of real crimes.

[politrix]

30. No, You Take A Look At The Lack Of Airplane

In these realy hi-res photos.

[mirandapriestly]

32. Hey I saw some small pieces, funny thing, though,

no sign of fire damage whatsoever.

[Name removed]

39. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[petgoat]

58. "looks like the accordioned aircraft."

It looks equally as much like a bunch of burned HVAC ductwork.

[Jazz2006]

33. Indeed. And all of the

search and rescue teams from all over the continent who also came to help, and all of the family members of all of the deceased.

Obviously, government shills, each and every one of them.

[rman]

35. So basically you didn't read my post

Or at least you continue repeating the same arguments without refuting mine, which show that "low level" people didn't know about any conspiracy.

[Debunking911]

40. Are you saying the

higher ups placed ALL the airliner debris around the pentagon before anyone took photos or the fireman came on the seen? Did Rumsfeld place all of the debris around the pentagon? I don't understand, you made a generalization without being specific enough to comment on. How many people would have been needed to get the job done in numbers and what are the job descriptions necessary? Wouldn't they need a mass of people to place the debris? How about the people who worked at the pentagon who saw the debris being placed and didn't say anything? What about the scientist who reserched the attack? The photographers who took the photos shortly after the attack with airliner debris in the pictures? What about the people pretending to be the family members. They aren't higher ups yet must be involved. I can think of many many people who MUST be involved if you are right and who aren't "Higher ups".

[rman]

42. Are you saying the debris was placed by resque workers?

Do photographers need to know the debris was planted in order to be able to take photographs of it?

Sure -some- lower level people need to be in on it - but not everyone who had something to do with the immediate aftermath of the events.

[Debunking911]

44. There were people photographing while the place was still burning

so yeah, they would have to know. Some people even photographed from the road in front of the place and say they saw the jet. They didn't photograph the jet but they photographed it's aftermath. It's not unreasonable for the event itself to take people by suprize and not give them enough time to catch the actual crash.

[rman]

47. "some people say"

Why are the videos (gas station, hotel) of the crash not released?

[libhill]

60. Exactly -

if the Government has nothing to hide, then what is it they're hiding?

[Grateful for Hope]

51. The best lies

are those that include some elements of truth. And, the more details, the better.

IMHO, the OCT is not completely a falsehood, but, there are definitely some lies included.

To me, so many of these details lack meaning as the evidence independent investigators would need to prove/disprove the official story was removed so quickly that it is virtually impossible to lend a stamp of certainty to ANY after-the-fact finding.

But, this does not prevent me from believing that "all is not what it seems", and quite possibly, "all is probably not what it seems".

[jschurchin]

38. The people I am accusing........

do not appear in any of those photographs.

[Debunking911]

41. Who are they?

Be specific. Everyone who would be needed to get the job done from start to finish.

[jschurchin]

46. Would you like the very, very few who.........

actually KNEW the "Big" picture or just the people who did what they were trained and told to do.

[petgoat]

56. Who are they?

1 person to tell al Qaeda when the war games were happening.

Rummy, Condi, Myers, and Cheney to do nothing.

Frasca and Maltbie to squelch troublesome investigations.

That's six. If Osama is CIA, somebody could have asked him to
order the attacks. That makes seven, plus a bunch of al Qaeda
dupes and patsies. Al Qaeda could have demolished the WTC by
renting offices in the building and working at night.

[petgoat]

57. "The Bush Administration, who failed at everything they ever did"

Huh?

He stole an election and got away with it. Jeb should have gone to jail.
He successfully covered up the theft and did it again.
He's looted the public treasury for the benefit of his cronies.
He's managed to avoid the taint of his responsibility for 9/11 and win the
perception that he's strong on terrorism.
He's managed to indulge a long time ambition to conquer Babylon.
He's made Afghanistan safe again for the CIA's opium farms.

Bush is doing very very well.

The more than 1,600 widows and widowers of 9/11....don't want to waste time investigating
the mass murder of their loved ones. Even the Jersey Girls. Why? They say it's the money...

I resent that. The FSC rates the questions the 9/11 Commission's non-responses to their questions
here: http://www.justicefor911.org/Appendix4_FSCQuestionRatings_111904.php

[petgoat]

63. Maybe you should reformat that post, Bunk, and then

it wouldn't be so hard to read.

[Yatar]

74. I've never seen some of those pictures before

Like this one:



Where did they come from? They just suddenly appeared on the internet one day?

[rman]

37. I think people were made stupid,

depoliticized etc, by giving them cable, sports, infotainment, boogie men, wedge issues etc.
Taking away any charismatic popular leaders that might step up also helps.

[Debunking911]

45. yes,

critical thinking skills are lacking these days. A steady diet of X-files and other government did it programs makes many people jump to conclutions.

[rman]

48. Iran-Contra, Bay of Pigs etc,

is what has made people aware that the government "does" things.

[libhill]

61. Not to mention -

John Kennedy, Bobby Kennedy, Martin Luther King, Malcolm X., October Surprise, the phony war on drugs, and on and on it goes. I wouldn't put anything past the government. Not a god damn thing. And I still wonder to this day, why and how it is that if the Government was taken so completely by surprise on 9/11, then how did they pull it all together so fast? As I recall, names and faces of the alleged hijackers were being broadcast within hours of the attacks. They worked mighty damn fast for people who (we are supposed to believe) got caught with their pants down - ? WTF?

[petgoat]

55. "A steady diet of X-files... makes many people jump to conclutions."

Right, like the conclusion that the 19 arab twenty-somethings under 5'7" tall armed with
box cutters overwhelmed the air defense of the most powerful military force this planet
has ever seen, and even managed to hit its headquarters.

[libhill]

62. Most of whom

could hardly have qualified to fly a Cessna, and all at the behest of a bearded Mullah in some cave in Afghanistan. I believe in Santa Claus and the fucking tooth fairy too - :)

[mirandapriestly]

31. Exactly, chain of command & delegation...

Cheney's aides said they didn't believe he was being honest that day, but of course, they only know PART of it.

[politrix]

34. Jazzy, I Can Answer Your Question

How DID they get all those people to be complicit in a conspiracy? GOOD QUESTION>

I've been asking myself that alot and, I don't have an answer.

BUT, I can SHOW YOU proof that such things take place:

http://www.indybay.org/news/2006/04/1817341.php

That's a compilation of multiple news companies and reporters SHOWING YOU the OKC blast having additonal bombs removed.

And, yet, they stopped playing those reports and starting talking about a truck bomb. WHERE are all those people who reported ON CAMERA while we watched the police remove additional bombs?

Where are the cops that did the work?

I don't know. But, I have irrefutable PROOF that it happens.


On another note, HOW can they suppress all the people that lived near the 93 crash who saw it coming apart in the air and heard a missle?

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&client=opera&rls=en&q=heard+missle+flight+93&btnG=Search


HOW can they suppress the people on 911 that heard bombs go off in the buildings before they fell?

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&client=opera&rls=en&q=heard+explosions+911&btnG=Search


HOW can they suppress all the people who lived on the same block of the levees that heard explosions?

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&client=opera&rls=en&q=levee+explosions&btnG=Search


GOOD QUESTION. But, it happens all the time when we have a catastrophe - I see a pattern, frankly.

[Jazz2006]

36. Are you talking to me?

If so, nothing in your post supports the propositions that you posit.

If not, nothing in your post supports the propositions that you posit.

[Debunking911]

43. The day of the OK bombing

no one was sure what caused it. We know today that a bomb in a truck blew up the building but that wasn't certain in the first hours of the event. Every package became suspect and was treated as a threat. The media was doing what they always do and tell people anything anyone tells them when they don't have good information. That doesn't mean it was a bomb. Why would the government place a bomb then defuse it?

Recently the media told the family members of mine workers that their trapped loved ones were safe only to be told later that they were dead. Using conspiracy theory logic these people are still alive because it was reported that way first. But this type of thing happens all the time. The media is more interested in getting it first than right. It's a good idea not to believe anything in the first hours of a media event because it's usually wrong. Even the media know this. I would bet money those same reporters would tell you they just reported something which was not double checked.

You would have to implicate the media for not following up on this and the people who defused it. They would all have to be "In on it"

During the first minutes of the first tower impact the media thought a small plane hit the building. The OK video clip doesn't prove anything other than the media do a poor job of reporting accurate news. Something most people already know.

You will notice that the stories you point to are only on conspiracy theory sites.

Here is a longer list of people and media events which SAW the plane...

http://www.geocities.com/someguyyoudontknow33/witnesses.htm

The sounds of explosions are easily explained. In space no one would hear an acre of concrete floor, truss and steel beams snapping but on earth they make explosive sounds. Just the sound of steel bolts snapping sounds explosive.

http://www.911myths.com/html/accounts_of_explosions.html

Note the sound of explosion here

http://www.911myths.com/collapse2.rm

It's the sound of steel snapping before the collapse. here is what you heard

http://www.911myths.com/Big_Blue_Animation.avi

The conspiracy sites even lie about many of the quotes.

http://www.geocities.com/debunking911/quotes.htm

http://www.geocities.com/debunking911/explosions.htm

"I heard" is different than "I saw". I can make it sound like the government is covering up train collisions with homes by quoting people saying "I heard a train run through my house" when talking about tornadoes.

[politrix]

49. I've Come To Believe That Anyone Quoting www.911myths.com

Is in denial or an agent.


Have a nice day.

[mirandapriestly]

50. 911myths is frustrating

It makes up it's own "conspiracy theory" claims, then refutes them. (Otherwise known as straw men arguments) It never recognizes the complexity of the issues.

[politrix]

52. You Have A Nice Way Of Viewing It

I consider it a bastion of evil.

I just don't know if the people who push it's tripe are all evil or, if some of them are just in denial. Or, dumb.

Or, evil, dumb and, in denial.

[mirandapriestly]

53. Hmm....Dumb or evil, dumb or evil...?

that is the persistent question I have been asking myself since Bush stole 2000. It applies to 911 "debunkers" and sites like 911Myths, too.

[Name removed]

54. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Debunking911]

68. And what do YOU think you're doing?

I could say the same thing, if you're STOOPID ENOUGH to spend your time attacking debunkers instead of debunking what Bush tells you then you're a synaptic ending away from Terri Schiavo. Maybe your mother should have changed the bath water before she let you drink it.

You really have no idea who your dealing with. Lets get adult and civil.

[Debunking911]

67. As with Jass2006

all you seem to do is post personal attacks. I could easily say Bush won the 2004 election because of people like you who are in fantasy land insisting that the democrats and republicans are to blame for 911. Because if something like this was to have happened it would have had to have started under clinton's watch. I have heard it from more than one conspiracy theorist. What does that do? It helps republicans by spitting the vote. We could get a republican turd for president in 2008 because of people like you. We could get another republican majority in congress because of people like you.

So lets both move away from personal attacks please... If the facts frustrate you don't take it out on others.

[petgoat]

69. "had to have started under clinton's watch"

Of course it did. Al Qaeda's Project Bojinka plan to hit the Pentagon, the WTC,
and Sears Tower with hijacked airliners was made known to the FBI in 1995.
Philippine Intelligence even turned over their informant, Abdul Hakim Murad.

But 9/11 could only have happened under Bush. Richard Clarke had a plan to
go after al Qaeda militarily and financially. Had Gore won, it would have
been implemented in 2000. Clarke took his plan to Condi in 1/01. She ignored it.
Bush ordered the FBI to shut down investigations of suspected terrorist financiers.
Warnings from 11 countries and 3 FBI offices were ignored. The 8-6 PDB was ignored.
The System was Blinking Red, and advisors were running around with their hair on
fire, and Bush went on vacation.

There was no air defense for almost two hours. How did Osama manage that? How could
he count on that?

[Debunking911]

77. This is why I'm here.

We have to be absolutely certain before saying something like this because cutting the vote is exactly what Rove wants us to do. This isn't a parliamentary system where the third party candidate gets something. If the liberals break up the vote we will never see an investigation into the presidents Iraq conspiracy and never get out of Iraq. People will die needlessly while unproven accusations divide us.

Of course it was started under clinton's watch but I hope you're not implying he let it happen. What does Bojinka have to do with 911? The cops catch bank robbers all the time that doesn't mean they know the next time that bank will get robbed. That's a logical fallacy.

>But 9/11 could only have happened under Bush.

Amen brother

>There was no air defense for almost two hours. How did Osama manage that? How could
he count on that?

The logical fallacies are:

1) because they never caught up with the planes someone must have helped him

2) the system was set up for this

3) they were authorized to shoot airliners down without authorization

4) a system which was set up to keep other countries out was set up to down our own airliners

5) They didn't down the airliners so there wasn't any air defense. I suggest a cuban fighter wouldn't have had the same luck.

[petgoat]

78. Your argument is the same that they use in the Voting Machine

forum: "Shhhh! Don't talk about the Black Box machines! That argument makes us
look flakey."

1) because they never caught up with the planes someone must have helped him

Sure. Just tip them off when the war games would disrupt the air defense (and the Pentagon
missile batteries would be turned off) and that's all they needed.

2) the system was set up for this

Intercepting off course aircraft is a routine matter. 100 times a year.

3) they were authorized to shoot airliners down without authorization

Who said shoot down? The rules call for interception. The aircraft were not intercepted.

4) a system which was set up to keep other countries out was set up to down our own airliners

It is NORAD's job to intercept off-course aircraft-for instance, around the White House. After the
collapse of the USSR, the military was trying to invent an expanded peactime role. Domestic protection was suggested.

5) They didn't down the airliners so there wasn't any air defense. I suggest a cuban fighter wouldn't have had the same luck.

"Down" and "fighter" are both faulty framing. "Intercept" and "multiple Jamaican airliners" are
reasonable.

Al Qaeda's Project Bojinka plot anticipated flying hijacked aircraft into Sears Tower, WTC, and the
Pentagon. The FBI knew all about it. You think the military never thought of it?

[Sinti]

84. What does Bojinka have to do with 911?

Bojinka was the plot by radical Islamists—led by WTC-bomber Ramzi Yousef—to... ram hijacked passenger planes into US landmarks, including the Twin Towers, the Pentagon, the White House, CIA Headquarters, and the Sears Tower - among other things. They got two out of three, right under the strongest military in the world's nose. Not bad for cavemen.


http://www.thememoryhole.org/911/dia-bojinka.htm

[dailykoff]

85. "If the liberals break up the vote"?

"Of course it was started under clinton's watch"?

Why do you keep using right-wing catch phrases?

[libhill]

79. No way

could Osama Bin Forgotten or alCIAduh have pulled that off. Orders to "stand down" came from very high up in the food chain.

[Jazz2006]

80. Thanks, D911

I missed most of the insults s/he was directing to me, as by the time I got back online, they had apparently been removed and I notice now that s/he has been tombstoned.

[Jazz2006]

81. Oops. I should clarify here.

I initially thought your post (67) was responding to and referring to "politrix" - I still have trouble with the format here sometimes in trying to ascertain which posts are being referred to when the lines stretch down the page. My response above was referring to "politrix" tossing about personal insults and being tombstoned.

Now that I look at it more closely, though, I see that your post 67 was responding and referring to mirandapriestly who, as you correctly observe, has been tossing nothing but personal insults at me since the first day I got here, but she has NOT been tombstoned, and my prior post was not intended to suggest that she has been.

[Debunking911]

66. Insults are stools for social midgets.

I could come here and easily attack your character but that doesn't help anyone. Besides, that's what people like Rove do. They change the issue to the person saying it. A typical republican tactic.

In fact there is a reason people like Tucker Carlson have conspiracy theorist on their show. I assure you it's not to find the truth. They try to paint all liberals like nut cases. This could be pushed by Rove for all we know. It's important to get the facts straight and listen to both sides of the argument. We don't have to agree but we should listen without calling names.

[Debunking911]

65. Like what?

Could it be you're frustrated because you can't easily dismiss the information there?

[petgoat]

70. Like inventing a conspiracy of thousands, then claiming it's

impossible.

Like inventing the notion that Bush has failed everything he ever tried.

Like inventing the notion that controlled demolition is impractically
complex.

[Debunking911]

75. You mean Bush wasn't/isn't a failure?

Do you think the few things he managed to squeak out in his life makes up for his failures? Things HE did failed. Unless you know of something because I don't.

[petgoat]

76. Bush a failure? He's President of the United States!

He's looted the public treasury for his cronies,
he's indulged his ambition to lay waste to Babylon,
he's stolen two elections and gotten away with it
he's the most powerful ruler the world has ever seen,
he's restored the CIA's opium farms in Afghanistan
he's helped raise the price of oil from $20 to $75
he's cut taxes for the rich and gotten away with it
he's gotten away with letting 9/11 happen (or worse)
he's bankrupting the federal government per neocon policy of "starving the beast"

What makes you think he's a failure?

[dailykoff]

83. He's restoring slavery, too.

Now they're called guest workers. No wonder the red states love him.

[Debunking911]

64. You don't want me to tell you

what I think about people quoting Loose Change do you?

Lets keep this civil. If the facts are wrong they speak for themselves.

[Name removed]

72. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

73. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.