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Since 9/11 is hot topic with the video release - here is the Loose Change

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debbierlus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-16-06 05:51 PM
Original message
Since 9/11 is hot topic with the video release - here is the Loose Change

Video

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-2023320890224991194

Worth a look. Even, if you don't agree with everything said in the video, it does raise many legitimate questions.

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RufusEarl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-16-06 06:04 PM
Response to Original message
1. Here's one of the best 9-11, websites i've come across
Be sure and check out the link page, it has some interesting website.

http://physics911.net/

Finally got around to the pentagon video, looks like a missile to me.


Peace!
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debbierlus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-16-06 06:06 PM
Response to Reply #1
2. Too many things are wrong.

I am no expert on any of this...

I just know that we are still in the dark about much of what really happened that day!
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RufusEarl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-16-06 06:18 PM
Response to Reply #2
6. If you're interested in the the physics
surrounding 9-11, then go study this website. And remember this; Building #7 was not hit by a plane on 9-11, building #7 is the evidence for all to see!


http://physics911.net/
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rpgamerd00d Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-16-06 06:17 PM
Response to Reply #1
5. That site has been totally debunked.
Just search the web, you'll find it. Popular Mechanics has an article.
http://www.popularmechanics.com/science/defense/1227842.html

Also, this is an email from my friend, a PhD in Material Science
==================================================================

OK, read the first article "Why Indeed Did the WTC Buildings Collapse?" by Steven E. Jones, Ph.D. and here are some problems with it. I've quoted bits out of the article and written responses.

-------
"Other explanations for the observations are sought, of course. For example, F. Greening has suggested that aluminum from the planes which struck the Towers could melt, and that this aluminum might fall on "rusted steel surfaces inducing violent thermite explosions." So a few students and I did straightforward experiments by melting aluminum and dropping molten aluminum on pre-heated rusted steel surfaces. There were in fact NO "violent thermite" reactions seen. We observed that the temperature of the molten aluminum in contact with the rusty iron simply cooled at about 25 C per minute (using an infrared probe) until the aluminum solidified, so that any thermite reactions between the aluminum and iron oxide must have been minimal and did not compete with radiative and conductive cooling, thus NOT supporting predictions made by Greening. There was no observable damage or even warping of the steel. (See photograph below.) Nor were violent reactions observed when we dropped molten aluminum onto crushed gypsum and concrete (wet or dry) and rusty steel. These experiments lend no support whatever to the notion that molten aluminum in the WTC Towers could have destroyed the enormous steel columns in the cores of the buildings, even if those columns were rusty and somehow subjected to direct contact with molten aluminum."

Their experiment is flawed. By their own admission (and I agree with this, I've worked with substrates at this temperature and used pyrometers on them), steel at 650 C is glowing red/orange. In the photo, the rusty steel isn't glowing, and they say the molten aluminum cooled and solidified, showing that the steel was cooler then the aluminum. They haven't heated the steel up enough for the aluminum to react with it.

They also argue consistently through the paper that the hydrocarbon fire was cool, because of the black smoke. The fact that some parts of the fire were cool and gave off black smoke does NOT mean that the WHOLE FIRE was cool. Thats such a dubious conclusion that it makes me doubtful of any other ones the paper makes. Such as;

-----
"Then there is the rather mysterious sulfidation of the steel reported in this paper -- What is the origin of this sulfur? No solid answer is given in any of the official reports."

Common wallboard in office walls is mostly gypsum, which has about 40% sulfur in it by weight. That took about a minute of research to find; pity the author of this article didn't put that much time in before making it a huge mystery.

-----
"The observed partly evaporated steel members is particularly upsetting to the official theory, since fires involving paper, office materials, even diesel fuel, cannot generate temperatures anywhere near the ~5,180oF (~2860oC) needed to evaporate steel. (Recall that WTC 7 was not hit by a jet, so there was no jet fuel involved in the fires in this building.) "

As a note, standard JP7 jet fuel is basically slightly purified diesel. If WTC 7 had diesel in it, and it caught fire, it could do anything that jet fuel could do. I also saw another article refuting the claims on this web site that discussed the collapse of WTC 7 and stated that it had a very unusual support system which led to its collapse. I'm not qualified to judge that though.

In terms of whether jet fuel (or diesel) can get hot enough to melt steel, the thermal energy of combustion per pound is very similar to that of charcoal. You can't melt iron in your charcoal grill. Charcoal is, however, used in blast furnaces to get them to 3000 C to make steel. It all depends on the ventilation and the physical configuration of the area confining the flames.

If, as I suspect, the central elevator areas in the WTC acted as a chimney and provided a "furnace-like" location to melt the central beams of the WTC, it would explain most of their points quite well. The early drop of the central antenna, the puffs of "smoke" from the sides (the main support beams went first, and the perimeter beams mentioned above which didn't get heated much were nowhere near strong enough to support the towers, so they failed abruptly in multiple places). This is supported by eyewitness accounts I've read elsewhere that talk of flames coming down the elevator shaft at ground level within minutes of the impact.

----
"Of the more than 170 areas examined on 16 perimeter column panels, only three columns had evidence that the steel reached temperatures above 250ºC… Only two core column specimens had sufficient paint remaining to make such an analysis, and their temperatures did not reach 250C. ... Using metallographic analysis, NIST determined that there was no evidence that any of the samples had reached temperatures above 600C. (NIST, 2005, pp. 176-177; emphasis added.) "

The authors quoted a piece of the NIST report that dealt with analysis of beams which still had paint. Specifically, ones that *didn't* get heated much, around the perimeter. Evidently there wasn't much left of the core columns that actually supported the building. If anything, this argues against their main point.

-------
"Indeed, NIST makes the startling admission in a footnote on page 80 of their Final Report:

"The focus of the Investigation was on the sequence of events from the instant of aircraft impact to the initiation of collapse for each tower. For brevity in this report, this sequence is referred to as the "probable collapse sequence," although it does not actually include the structural behavior of the tower after the conditions for collapse initiation were reached...(NIST, 2005, p. 80, fn. 12; emphasis added.)

"Again, on page 142, NIST admits that their computer simulation only proceeds until the building is poised for collapse, thus ignoring any data from that time on.

"The results were a simulation of the structural deterioration of each tower from the time of aircraft impact to the time at which the building became unstable, i.e., was poised for collapse. ...(NIST, 2005, p. 142; emphasis added.)

"What about the subsequent complete, rapid and symmetrical collapse of the buildings? What about the observed squibs? What about the antenna dropping first in the North Tower? What about the molten metal observed in the basement areas in large pools in both Towers and WTC 7 as well? Never mind all that: NIST did not discuss at all any data after the buildings were poised for collapse. Well, some of us want to look at ALL the data, without "black-box" computer simulations that are adjusted, perhaps to make them fit the desired outcome. An hypothesis which is non-refutable is non-scientific. On the other hand, Occam's razor suggests that the simplest explanation which addresses and satisfies ALL the evidence is most probably correct."

I've talked to someone who studies rapid, high speed impact simulations. A simulation of the actual tower collapse *after* its reached the failure point is way, way beyond the state of the art of computer simulations, and would require completely different software then the simulation used for its initial failure. What he asks for doesn't exist, and can't exist, its not a conspiracy. For proof of this, look at the impact simulations they did on the space shuttle tiles that said striking foam wouldn't be a problem. When they did the experiment, it in fact blew a large hole in the graphite panels on the leading edge of the wing.

Heck, they were pushing the boundaries of state of the art to even try to simulate the fire and failure that caused the collapse. Which, to *my* satisfaction, explains why they made several different models and only used and tweaked the ones that matched what happened. Thats how they do weather prediction every day, and its how any useful "real world" computer modeling I've ever seen was done.

-----
"After presenting the material summarized here, including actually looking at and discussing the collapses of WTC 7 and the Towers, only one attendee disagreed (by hand-vote) that further investigation of the WTC collapses was called for."

I have never in my entire scientific career seen any scientist or engineer say "this subject doesn't need any more investigation.", not a huge surprise here, given the extreme complexity of the problem. :-)



Despite the web sites listing this as a "peer reviewed paper", the only place it seems that it is going to be published is in a "volume" being put out by the auther of one of the other papers on the web site. It doesn't count as peer reviewed until its in a scientific journal that exists independent of conspiracy buffs. It would obviously never be published in such; its extremely loaded language would prevent this, if not the major flaws I point out above.

I point out that the author carefully doesn't mention that controlled demolition of a building normally requires a substantial team of people working in a building for a week or two, drilling holes in support beams and stringing wires and such. This is not subtle. It also has never to my knowledge left pools of molten metal, since the explosions are over very quickly they certainly don't form puddles that are still molten weeks later. I suppose if you also applied a few tons of thermite all over the place you might achieve that, but then you need even more workmen and time, you would be working on huge sections of steel beams. To expect this work to go unnoticed in 3 buildings and such a large conspiracy to hold together for years afterwards seems to me to violate his Occams Razor test even more thoroughly then the fire theory.

I didn't have time to look much at the other "article" by Griffin, but like the one I discuss above, it would never pass muster in a true peer reviewed journal, and I saw a lot of problems just in the first readthrough. It is amusing that the two of them quote each other quite a bit as though they are independent experts, despite the fact they are writing (or have written) a book together.

Sorry, I'm not even close to convinced by the science in this work. Everything I have any expertise on is wrong, so I'm pretty dubious about the conclusions in areas I know less about.
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WoodrowFan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-16-06 06:27 PM
Response to Reply #5
8. also these sites
basically "Loose Change" is as dishonest as the Swiftboat vets film on Kerry...

these two sites actually ask questions and give honest answers...

http://www.911myths.com/index.html

http://www.geocities.com/debunking911/


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longship Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-16-06 07:59 PM
Response to Reply #8
17. Bingo.
Edited on Tue May-16-06 08:04 PM by longship
These sites provide some answers. Were it only true that the tin foil mad hatters listened to reason about some of their conclusions.

The important thing here is that we keep asking the kind of questions in the film mentioned in Post #3.

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Rainscents Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-16-06 07:09 PM
Response to Reply #5
12. What are you? Are you now the Pentagon spokes person?
I don't give a crap about what you say and all the links you post... I have a mind and I can make up my own mind. Thank you for your help, but I don't need it.
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rpgamerd00d Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-16-06 10:05 PM
Response to Reply #12
21. In order to make up your own mind, you first have to...
... use it.

Try reading up on the subject instead of refusing to look at the sites that have debunked 9/11 MIHOP.
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RufusEarl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-17-06 08:09 AM
Response to Reply #5
22. Popular Mechanics
I've read the PM article and to me it's BS plan and simple, they follow the official story to the letter.

Here are a group of manes that IMHO are the authority on the 9-11 story, if you're interested check these people out.

David Ray Griffin

Michael C. Ruppert

Paul Thompson (author of the 9-11 Time Line)

Webster G. Tarpley


Peace!
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longship Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-16-06 06:30 PM
Response to Reply #1
9. How can you tell?
Edited on Tue May-16-06 06:32 PM by longship
At over 550 mph whatever it is is going to be travelling over 800 feet a second. That's over five times the length of a 757-200.

So what did you expect from a low quality security camera which is engineered to capture people, and cars, and other slow things? Did you really expect to see a clear shot of a 550+ mph airliner? Hell, in the time the shutter is open, the airliner probably travels the better part of its length. So what the hell is that going to look like when that single frame in the video is viewed?

In the 1/2 second between frames there's time enough for three airliners at that speed to be totally missed. That's why most of the cameras show nothing. And that's why the lucky camera which actually captured it, shows a ghostly blur which may look like anything but an airliner.

In other words, there's absolutely no way that camera is fast enough to capture anything meaningful. And it would be equally wrong to draw any conclusions from it, other than "something" flew through the frame very quickly.

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RufusEarl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-16-06 07:08 PM
Response to Reply #9
11. Well i said it looks like a missile to me,
It could have been a damn elephant! But the point is this, is this the best video they have of the incident on 9-11? they basically just re-released the same video they released in the first place? Really if they wanted to put this to rest, it would have been so easy.

They have cameras all over the pentagon, plus the video the FBI confiscated from around the area. One would think the FBI could have done better then this, it's the same video for pete sake.
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longship Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-16-06 08:03 PM
Response to Reply #11
19. Actually, it's a slightly different viewpoint.
Edited on Tue May-16-06 08:05 PM by longship
A little closer. I haven't directly compared the two, but I'm sure somebody's gonna do it. With both of them from the same general direction, we might be able to interleave the frames so there's a little more information. (although these security cameras weren't designed to capture near Mach 1 airplanes from close in.)
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RufusEarl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-17-06 09:33 AM
Response to Reply #19
24. These Cameras
Thats kinda my point! Why did they re-release basically the same photo they originally released? It's not much help and it just adds to the controversy.

They have cameras all over the pentagon, and from private businesses why would they basically just release the same out of focus junk they released in the first place. These people have something to hide, and i want to know what it is.


Peace!
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pauldp Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-16-06 06:09 PM
Response to Original message
3. Here's a better video IMHO.
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=6757267008400743688

Less focus on debateable physical evidence. Tighter research
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InaneAnanity Donating Member (910 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-16-06 06:15 PM
Response to Reply #3
4. I like this one
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longship Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-16-06 07:56 PM
Response to Reply #3
15. Good flick
This movie is very good in that it eschews drawing any conclusions or making any assumptions about what really happened on 9/11. Instead, it only asks the very important questions which have not been answered.

I cannot go along with those people who take these questions and then weave around them webs of complex and convoluted conspiracy. Then, by cherry picked evidence, special pleading, very bad science, and a lot more illogic and bunkum they construct the most ridiculous scenerios. Many of these scenerios are so easy to debunk that one wonders how people defend them so vociferously. But that's what they do.

I highly recommend this film. I think it's basically correct, although it reports a few minor things which have been disputed by reputable people. None of these are important enough to detract from the value of the film.

(I'll not go into the details here. I don't want yet another 9/11 flame war to begin in this forum.)

Highly recommended.
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peacetalksforall Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-16-06 06:23 PM
Response to Original message
7. TV WatchersTtoday Exposed To PsychologicalM Manipulation Pentagon
Only speaking for MSNBC.

(My headline).

Earlier today they showed old film with warnings that some might not want to watch. Then they announced that other film would be shown later. That we would only be seeing the tail. Then they had a bunch of gibberish about what was and was not seen by whom during the M. trial.

I don't hesitate to say that we were probably being set up to believe what they told us next..

I didn't see the Judicial Watch video until Hardball. I saw nothing that would convince me that I saw a 757. It is ridiculous that anyone might expect us to believe that we recognized Flt 77 - a 757-200.

All the while I listened to the rhetoric, I felt as though the reporter was lying to me, selling me. I felt no proof. I felt a lie.

I trust my feelings.

I went so far as to review the measurements of the a/c. I thought if I was going to see a tail, I wanted to see how big it was.

fyi - 757-200 measures 42 1/2 feet from ground to rip of tail. From the fuselage up we should have been able to recognize about 1/2 half of that measurement. What did you see - how big was it? (Just fyi.)
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Xenotime Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-16-06 07:05 PM
Response to Original message
10. This video should expose * for the events of 9-11
Why are these crimes not investigated more?
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OmmmSweetOmmm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-16-06 07:11 PM
Response to Original message
13. New Excellent Video that was shown during the Tribeca Film Festival!
Everybody Gotto Know Sometime

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=125x86965

This link will allow you to view it as a google video, or it can be downloaded. It is a must see!
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corbett Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-16-06 07:52 PM
Response to Original message
14. Kudos To You And Google For Sharing That! Here's Another
www.reopen911.org
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libertypirate Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-16-06 07:56 PM
Response to Original message
16. I have to say that I was quite impressed by this
Everybody's Gotta Learn Sometime

http://www.911podcasts.com/display.php?vid=92



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walldude Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-16-06 08:01 PM
Response to Original message
18. These are great videos, maybe some of the
people bashing "tin foil hatters" will take a look. When you see all the evidence gathered and sorted it's hard to deny the governments involvement.
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imax2268 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-16-06 08:56 PM
Response to Original message
20. I'm not one for conspiracy theories...
but this to me makes much more sense then the ones I have heard before...

I just don't know what to think...but this has sure opened my eyes to some things that I didn't know before...

I hope I don't get flamed...but I'm still a bit skeptical about MIHOP...not saying that it couldn't happen...but everytime I hear and see stuff like this...it makes me believe that much more...
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rman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-17-06 08:40 AM
Response to Original message
23. Loose Change contains obvious errors, much better is
(such as a photo that is supposedly of the explosion at the moment of impact)

Much better is

Everybody's Gotta Learn Sometime
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-8372366181300641663&q=Everybody%27s+Gotta+Learn+Sometime
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